New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

I don't but then again I didn't have any part whatsoever in deciding the policy.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Transport_Strategy_for_the_Greater_Dublin_Area_2016-2035.pdf

That doesn’t mean it should not be discussed or questioned here though does it?

With respect you’re very dismissive of anyone mentioning the issues faced by commuters in that area which are massive given that they face the slowest bus speeds in the city.

It’s a real problem and it’s as if no one gives a damn frankly.

And before someone mentions BusConnects - short of putting bombs in the suburban villages and flattening them, bus speeds aren’t going to change dramatically.

marno21

LXFlyer wrote: »

That doesn’t mean it should not be discussed or questioned here though does it?

With respect you’re very dismissive of anyone mentioning the issues faced by commuters in that area.

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

Well perhaps it needs stressing that they may not be getting this quite right?

tom1ie

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

Just because there’s a framework for 20 years, that doesn’t mean plans and priorities can’t change.
It doesn’t mean the commuters who are constantly ignored can’t question the narrative.
The facts are Dublin south has a heavy rail line, (dart) and a light rail line (Luas)
Dublin south west has........busses. Very very slow busses.

roadmaster

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

tom1ie

roadmaster wrote: »

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

Just asking a question here, but would the majority of Lucans traffic problems not be sorted out by running a brt using existing qbc’s on n4 into cc aswell as running a brt feeder to Adamstown train station and running commuter trains from there to cc via Phoenix Park tunnel.
Also building a large p+r at Adamstown train station.
Surely a Luas is a massive waste of money that would be better spent on the above at a fraction of the cost.

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

Good points.
The problem will be when/if we go on to build metro sw, it’s going to cost a hell of a lot more money than MetroLink, as the tunnel will have to go under the cc and out to nw direction.
To be honest the way public discontent is building I’ll be surprised if we get any kind of metro.
Sorry for being so negative!

Strictly speaking you could still just have a spur from Charlemont to South West Dublin and it would cost roughly the same 1.5b either way. It isn't unusual to have multiple spurs off a Metro line outside the city center section. If you take a look at Metro maps of Barcelona or Amsterdam you will see exactly that.

Having said that a full North East to South West separate (but integrated) Metro line would be preferable. After all the NE is as badly in need of service as the SW.

Your point on public discontent is exactly why I worry about suggestions like this. Metrolink will already be horribly expensive at 3 billion. I don't think we have ever built anything more then 1 billion in one project before, so 3 billion is already a stretch. Making it a 4.5 billion project would doom it IMO.

That is why I think it is better for all of us who want to see Dublin get high quality public transport to really focus on supporting and getting the planned Metrolink built.

Once built, I truly believe the people of Dublin will love it, and will demand a lot more Metros, just like happened with Luas.

Once Metrolink starts construction, I'll be right there beside you shouting for a SW line, but I really think we have to fully support the planned Metrolink first and get it over the line.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

Strictly speaking you could still just have a spur from Charlemont to South West Dublin and it would cost roughly the same 1.5b either way. It isn't unusual to have multiple spurs off a Metro line outside the city center section. If you take a look at Metro maps of Barcelona or Amsterdam you will see exactly that.

Having said that a full North East to South West separate (but integrated) Metro line would be preferable. After all the NE is as badly in need of service as the SW.

Your point on public discontent is exactly why I worry about suggestions like this. Metrolink will already be horribly expensive at 3 billion. I don't think we have ever built anything more then 1 billion in one project before, so 3 billion is already a stretch. Making it a 4.5 billion project would doom it IMO.

That is why I think it is better for all of us who want to see Dublin get high quality public transport to really focus on supporting and getting the planned Metrolink built.

Once built, I truly believe the people of Dublin will love it, and will demand a lot more Metros, just like happened with Luas.

Once Metrolink starts construction, I'll be right there beside you shouting for a SW line, but I really think we have to fully support the planned Metrolink first and get it over the line.

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

Kevtherev1

roadmaster wrote: »

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

I wonder if luas lucan is really viable. It has been stated before Buses from lucan to City Centre takes 25 to 30 mins via chapelizod bypass.

The old preferred route for luas lucan via Ballyfermot was too winding and slow journeytime estimate of 40 mins. RPA then decided to plan Luas Lucan to connect to the Dart Underground at inchicore.

A luas Lucan alignment cant be that efficient in journey time with the constraints of having to connect to red line at BlackHorse and then congested city centre to trinity proposal.

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

Adamstown is south west

LXFlyer

salmocab wrote: »

Adamstown is south west

I’m sorry, but that’s the kind of smart assed post that really annoys me as its just being smart for the sake of it. By any measure, Adamstown is west of the city centre.

It’s obvious where Tom and I are talking about - effectively the areas served by between the Templeogue, Rathfarnham “QBCs” and the area immediately to the west of them.

That area has the slowest bus speeds in the city and no amount of tinkering is going to change that. There is nothing being planned to deal with it and as I’ve said journey times have extended to 90 minutes to cover 12km.

LXFlyer

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

I wonder if luas lucan is really viable. It has been stated before Buses from lucan to City Centre takes 25 to 30 mins via chapelizod bypass.

The old preferred route for luas lucan via Ballyfermot was too winding and slow journeytime estimate of 40 mins. RPA then decided to plan Luas Lucan to connect to the Dart Underground at inchicore.

A luas Lucan alignment cant be that efficient in journey time with the constraints of having to connect to red line at BlackHorse and then congested city centre to trinity proposal.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

salmocab

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’m sorry, but that’s the kind of smart assed post that really annoys me as its just being smart for the sake of it. By any measure, Adamstown is due west of the city centre.

It’s obvious where Tom and I are talking about - effectively the areas served by between the Templeogue, Rathfarnham “QBCs” and the area immediately to the west of them.

That area has the slowest bus speeds in the city and no amount of tinkering is going to change that. There is nothing being planned to deal with it and as I’ve said journey times have extended to 90 minutes to cover 12km.

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

LXFlyer

salmocab wrote: »

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

With respect - you know what he meant.

All that you’re doing is going off on a pointless tangent from the point he and I are trying to make for the sake of it.

Sam Russell

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.




*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

salmocab

LXFlyer wrote: »

With respect - you know what he meant.

All that you’re doing is going off on a pointless tangent from the point he and I are trying to make for the sake of it.

No I didn’t know what he meant I presumed he thought Adamstown was at the very least on the Northside.
What’s the point? That the corridor thru Harold’s X terenure Rathfarnham needs a metro? I’m sure pretty much everyone agrees with that. But saying Adamstown is NW not even just west is just plain wrong it has no bearing on this discussion and we can’t start claiming areas are more in need of good public transport than others and then use very inaccurate points to back ourselves up.

salmocab

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.




*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

I’d go across by maybe o Connell street and then out toward clontarf and basically split the difference between the dart and the metro not sure exact route as I don’t know that side of the city very well

Dats me

Making Tara Street a proper Metro/DART interchange would be very cool, but don't think the angles quite work if you want to swing up North East, it is a very central spot though with great interchanges assuming MetroLink is completed

From there could hit Croke Park and Beaumont many?

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

Adamstown is south west

No is not. I’m talking about crumlin green hills Walkinstown Terenure templeouge rathfarnham Knocklyon firhouse etc etc.

Sam Russell

I was thinking Cross Guns as the Metro - Metro link, with the SW Metro going then towards Whitehall, Coolock, and then Clongriffin Dart Stn.

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

No is not. I’m talking about crumlin green hills Walkinstown Terenure templeouge rathfarnham Knocklyon firhouse etc etc.

I know where your talking about and fair enough it’s west not SW but it’s certainly not north west.

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

Listen. You know very well I meant there are no heavy rail lines in the sw areas I have mentioned in my previous post. You say you are from the rathfarnham area so am I. You don’t seem too bothered by the fact we have gridlocked traffic and no access to rail, meanwhile south Dublin gets an upgrade to a Luas line whilst also having access to dart......

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

I know where your talking about and fair enough it’s west not SW but it’s certainly not north west.

Fair enough. :rolleyes:

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

Listen. You know very well I meant there are no heavy rail lines in the sw areas I have mentioned in my previous post. You say you are from the rathfarnham area so am I. You don’t seem too bothered by the fact we have gridlocked traffic and no access to rail, meanwhile south Dublin gets an upgrade to a Luas line whilst also having access to dart......

I’ve said several times that that corridor badly needs a metro, traffic is chaotic I don’t know where you jumped to the conclusion I’m not too bothered. The upgrade is needed and has an infinitely better chance of happening in the medium term future than a line that will benefit us, that’s a pain for us but it doesn’t mean that the upgrade shouldn’t happen.

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve said several times that that corridor badly needs a metro, traffic is chaotic I don’t know where you jumped to the conclusion I’m not too bothered. The upgrade is needed and has an infinitely better chance of happening in the medium term future than a line that will benefit us, that’s a pain for us but it doesn’t mean that the upgrade shouldn’t happen.

I will end the hostilities by saying, I think we both agree the sooner the better a Tbm gets put in the ground and the first steps towards a fully inclusive, fully integrated metro system the envy of Europe gets built.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.




*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

But that’s the thing, a sw line would have to be integrated with metro link somewhere to allow passengers from firhouse go transfer to swords or sandyford direction, however the line can’t “share” the same tunnel as MetroLink as you’d have to cut frequency on the south and sw lines.
Therefore a second tunnel would have to go under the cc and out towards Christchurch etc, but the obvious spot for the integrated station would be charlemount.
The other option is just hav a spur from charlemount out to firhouse, but as previously stated on this forum that’d probably put too much pressure on Metrolink and wouldn’t serve nw. Even though I have my doubts if nw and w requires a metro. They have heavy rail lines.

jd

tom1ie wrote: »

The other option is just hav a spur from charlemount out to firhouse, but as previously stated on this forum that’d probably put too much pressure on Metrolink and wouldn’t serve nw. Even though I have my doubts if nw and w requires a metro. They have heavy rail lines.

I think it would actually head NE rather than NW - Beaumont/Artane-Coolock-Clangriffin or similar

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

If a second Metro line is to be built, then SW to NE is pretty obvious since E W is already covered by heavy rail - Dart expansion and Commuter.

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Whitworth Road is the obvious choice.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Well a separate tunnel would certainly be preferable in terms of capacity.

However depending on what sepc they use for the Metrolink tunnel, I do think it could have enough capacity for two spurs, at least for a couple of decades.

If they go for the high end option of 90m stations/trains, with full automation and high floors, then I think it could have the capacity for spurs.