New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

Amirani

Sam Russell wrote: »

If a second Metro line is to be built, then SW to NE is pretty obvious since E W is already covered by heavy rail - Dart expansion and Commuter.

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Whitworth Road is the obvious choice.

I don't think Whitworth works that well for a metro coming from South West, it would almost have to completely avoid the City Centre to the West? This would make it non-optimal for most commuters using it, would almost mandate transfers at Whitworth for anyone using the CBD.

I think Tara Street would be much more beneficial if the curves worked okay. After this, proceed to Croke Park/Mountjoy Square area > St Vincent's GAA/Marino > Beaumont.

If Tara Street can't work then I'd probably interchange at O'Connell St. I don't think the mainline rail connections would be as crucial for this line if they're already covered with North-South line.

antoinolachtnai

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not really so. One going from Christ Church along New Street, Patrick Street, Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross Road, Terenure Road North to Rathfarnham would be on broad road the whole way, and could start at Stephen's Green and go up Dame Street to Christ Church. Broad road all the way from Christ Church!

These roads are already pretty busy. The utility diversion work required would be immense. If you put a Luas down those roads, then you reduce the capacity for buses and other vehicles. Where is the Luas supposed to get from Dame St to St Stephens Green? It can't join the green line. That line is already full.

LXFlyer

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not really so. One going from Christ Church along New Street, Patrick Street, Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross Road, Terenure Road North to Rathfarnham would be on broad road the whole way, and could start at Stephen's Green and go up Dame Street to Christ Church. Broad road all the way from Christ Church!

Tis seldom I'd see eye-to-eye with Michael McDowell on anything, but the idea of putting a Metro station in an out-of-the-way place, right beside a road that has at times been listed as the most expensive house-buying road in Dublin, and splitting that community - I agree with him that this is unwise.

Sorry, but that is baloney.

There isn’t the roadspace as it is on that corridor for two traffic lanes and two bus lanes for the majority of the route.

Without massive CPO costs and demolishing Terenure Village and Harold’s Cross Village you could not put two segregated tram lines in.

The route has already been rejected as a potential LUAS route for precisely that reason.

For trams to work reliably and offer improved journey times they have to run on fully segregated routes (or on roads where there is sufficient space for segregated traffic and LUAS lanes (like the Naas Rd at Bluebell)).

There are actually very few remaining routes where this can happen in Dublin - McDowell and his ilk don’t seem to get this.

bk

Amirani wrote: »

I don't think Whitworth works that well for a metro coming from South West, it would almost have to completely avoid the City Centre to the West? This would make it non-optimal for most commuters using it, would almost mandate transfers at Whitworth for anyone using the CBD.

Yes, I was thinking the same.

Actually another option would be if instead of building the DART Underground tunnel, we built an East to West Metro (say from Docks area, connecting Connolly and Hueston and out towards Lucan), then the SW tunnel could be a spur off that line.

If it was a fully segregated line, then I'd say something like St Patricks Cathedral, Dublin Castle, O'Connoll St, Drumcondra.

It could change with the Dart Underground Tunnel at St Pats or Dublin Castle depending where that goes and it could interchange with the other DART line at Drumcondra. While interchanging with Metrolink and the Red and Green Luas lines at O'Connell St. Of course that is all assuming that the DU tunnel gets built.

LXFlyer

Rechuchote wrote: »

Sorry! Sandyford!



Both Harold's Cross and Terenure already had two tram lines - they were a major part of the original tram network.

But they didn’t have the level of traffic then that there is today - how would you fit that in? It’s impossible. You can’t ban suburban traffic.

You can’t compare the old tram routes with the corridors of today. It’s chalk and cheese.

Moved




Sorry mod was composing before you posted! Can you move this and other posts?

bk

bk wrote: »

It could change with the Dart Underground Tunnel at St Pats or Dublin Castle depending where that goes and it could interchange with the other DART line at Drumcondra. While interchanging with Metrolink and the Red and Green Luas lines at O'Connell St. Of course that is all assuming that the DU tunnel gets built.

Actually thinking about this a bit more. If the Dart Underground Tunnel does get built (hopefully), then the SW spur could actually be a DART line off this instead of Metro (not that there is fundamentally much of a difference *).

You could also then have a NE DART spur off the Northern DART line around Clontarf/Connolly.

* Technically of course there are differences in track gauge, power systems, signalling, but if designed right, there shouldn't be much noticeable difference to users.

specialbyte

bk wrote: »

Actually thinking about this a bit more. If the Dart Underground Tunnel does get built (hopefully), then the SW spur could actually be a DART line off this instead of Metro (not that there is fundamentally much of a difference *).

You could also then have a NE DART spur off the Northern DART line around Clontarf/Connolly.

* Technically of course there are differences in track gauge, power systems, signalling, but if designed right, there shouldn't be much noticeable difference to users.

You'd probably have too much capacity on that spur line to the SW. DART trains have a length of ~200m. We're talking at 65-90m for the MetroLink scheme and that's travelling through an area with far more trip generators that this SW area has to offer.


On a very unrelated note. It would be great if we could connect to Connolly station with the SW metro line.

citizen6

specialbyte wrote: »

You'd probably have too much capacity on that spur line to the SW. DART trains have a length of ~200m. We're talking at 65-90m for the MetroLink scheme and that's travelling through an area with far more trip generators that this SW area has to offer.


On a very unrelated note. It would be great if we could connect to Connolly station with the SW metro line.

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

Sam Russell

citizen6 wrote: »

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

The point of a Whitworth Rd connection is that it allows an interchange with four lines, so only one change from one to the other. The routing of the Whitworth to NE Dublin is open to suggestion, but Beaumont Hospital is in that direction, but I do not see any trip generators beside that, also there does not appear to be any obvious route.

Going NW is not really worth it because there will be Dart Expansion trains heading that way. Dart spurs and feeder buses will go along way to meet demand.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point of a Whitworth Rd connection is that it allows an interchange with four lines, so only one change from one to the other. The routing of the Whitworth to NE Dublin is open to suggestion, but Beaumont Hospital is in that direction, but I do not see any trip generators beside that, also there does not appear to be any obvious route.

Going NW is not really worth it because there will be Dart Expansion trains heading that way. Dart spurs and feeder buses will go along way to meet demand.

Would it not make more sense to route a Metro via the city centre seeing as that would be the biggest trip generator? There wouldn't be many people going from there to the Houston or Maynooth lines,

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Would it not make more sense to route a Metro via the city centre seeing as that would be the biggest trip generator? There wouldn't be many people going from there to the Houston or Maynooth lines,

Maybe, but Whitworth Rd is only 1.5 km from the Metrolink station at the top of OCS.

It makes sense for the SW line to join the Metrolink, but that cuts capacity on the Green Line portion so having an interchange makes sense to try to maintain capacity that capacity.

Where to put it is the question. If you are changing once, then it matters not where that change is providing it does not extend your journey time or cause long walks. If frequency of trains in in the order of a few minutes (less than 5), and the interchange is just crossing a platform, or climbing 10 metres of escalator, then I think that is OK.

Do not forget, the CC is not the Spire, it is about 2 km around it. Providing the Metros are frequent and fast, passenger will love them. On the Southside of Dublin, the CC is St Stephen's Green, while those on the Northside say it is O'Connell Bridge.

Dats me

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you are changing once, then it matters not where that change is providing it does not extend your journey time or cause long walks.

Surely having the interchange at Whitworth would extend the journey time though? Given that a SW-NE Metro would really be about connecting these areas to the City Centre? Having access to the CC via Whitworth would add time & complexity

Sam Russell

Dats me wrote: »

Surely having the interchange at Whitworth would extend the journey time though? Given that a SW-NE Metro would really be about connecting these areas to the City Centre? Having access to the CC via Whitworth would add time & complexity

Harold's Cross to Whitworth Road passes close to the City Centre. It would pass close to St Patrick's Cathedral, and the Four Courts/Smithfield. Smithfield is 1 km from O'Connell Bridge.

If it is not to merge with Metrolink which reduces capacity, it needs to keep west of it, and it is less than 1 km from most of that part of town. If DU were built, it would link with that as well.

Plenty of links creates a network.

tom1ie

citizen6 wrote: »

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

We are going on about trip generators here, but if we have a properly integrated system that allows travel from sw to swords, cc, airport, sandyford, cherrywood, and all heavy rail line stations- Tara street, Huston etc then we don’t need to worry about trip generators as everyone will leave the car at home as pt will reach most places.
For example, if we don’t build sw line, then people in the sw will still use their car leading to traffic.
If we build a sw line with a proper p+r and feeder busses to the metro stations, and connect to the places I’ve listed then people will leave the car at home leading to less traffic meaning more road space for busses, meaning more capacity for pt meaning a higher density of housing can be built on the further extremities of the metro routes and indeed along the metro routes.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Harold's Cross to Whitfield Road passes close to the City Centre. It would pass close to St Patrick's Cathedral, and the Four Courts/Smithfield. Smithfield is 1 km from O'Connell Bridge.

If it is not to merge with Metrolink which reduces capacity, it needs to keep west of it, and it is less than 1 km from most of that part of town. If DU were built, it would link with that as well.

Plenty of links creates a network.

Yeah it shouldn’t share the tunnel but it should share a station allowing a change of line.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

Apologies bk I misread your post.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.




*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

I think this is a crazy argument to be honest.
If Metrolink was already in place a sw line would allow pt users to travel to swords cc airport sandyford or cherrywood once the sw line intersects at some point with metrolink and provide connection to heavy rail.
The fact that intersection would be in charlemount or st Stephens green doesn’t really matter. Your offering people that are stick on busses or in cars for 90 mins a viable alternative
Also as previous posters have quite rightly pointed out the sw line should then head out in the ne direction.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was thinking Cross Guns as the Metro - Metro link, with the SW Metro going then towards Whitehall, Coolock, and then Clongriffin Dart Stn.

tom1ie wrote: »

I think this is a crazy argument to be honest.
If Metrolink was already in place a sw line would allow pt users to travel to swords cc airport sandyford or cherrywood once the sw line intersects at some point with metrolink and provide connection to heavy rail.
The fact that intersection would be in charlemount or st Stephens green doesn’t really matter. Your offering people that are stick on busses or in cars for 90 mins a viable alternative
Also as previous posters have quite rightly pointed out the sw line should then head out in the ne direction.

My point is Metro SW should travel west of Metrolink as far as Whitworth Road, and then head NE through Whitehall etc. and terminating at Clongriffin. As it passes any Luas or Metro or Dart, there is an connection. This assumes Dart expansion goes ahead, and possibly even Dart underground goes ahead.

With this level of rail PT, most journeys would involve just one change or less.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your post.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

My point is Metro SW should travel west of Metrolink as far as Whitworth Road, and then head NE through Whitehall etc. and terminating at Clongriffin. As it passes any Luas or Metro or Dart, there is an connection. This assumes Dart expansion goes ahead, and possibly even Dart underground goes ahead.

With this level of rail PT, most journeys would involve just one change or less.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your post.

Perhaps it was I who misunderstood. I presumed you were questioning the validity of the sw metro by questioning where it would go after Harold's x, as in there would be no need for it.
Apologies if that wasn't the case.

Dats me

Sam I just still don't think that building a SW/NE Metro and leaving passengers 1km from the proper City Centre is viable. It would be one thing to stay West and only crossover at O'Connell Street, but I do think Dame Street, Tara Street, Conolly (even though this duplicates DART for a bit) is much more viable.

While the Whitworth interchange is lovely to keep the number of connections low, the main point of the Metro is to connect these areas to the city centre surely, and leaving their options to reach the centre to either a 1km walk or changing at Whitworth to go back the way they came for two stops isn't a runner as far as I can see

antoinolachtnai

Well, we have to think that the idea of 'centre' will be bigger or at least different to what it is now in 15 years time. Big cities have many centres, rather than just one.

Sam Russell

Dats me wrote: »

Sam I just still don't think that building a SW/NE Metro and leaving passengers 1km from the proper City Centre is viable. It would be one thing to stay West and only crossover at O'Connell Street, but I do think Dame Street, Tara Street, Connolly (even though this duplicates DART for a bit) is much more viable.

While the Whitworth interchange is lovely to keep the number of connections low, the main point of the Metro is to connect these areas to the city centre surely, and leaving their options to reach the centre to either a 1km walk or changing at Whitworth to go back the way they came for two stops isn't a runner as far as I can see

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, we have to think that the idea of 'centre' will be bigger or at least different to what it is now in 15 years time. Big cities have many centres, rather than just one.

Well, it helps if you remember there is a Red line running along beside the Liffey, and Metro2 (let us call it) will have a stop at Christchurch (change here for DU) and Smithfield (change here for Red Line) and Whitworth Road (change here for Dart and Metrolink) plus lots of access to other places by bus.

The aim is to get access to the whole city by only a single change and a short walk. Remember, the City Centre is St Stephen's Green for those on the Southside, while it is the Spire or O'Connell Bridge for those on the Northside. There is a 1 km walk for you for a start.

I think 15 years will be the earliest that Metro2 will be built.

Kellyconor1982

The big thing is getting metro 1 built. You would have to hope that there will be a real appetite for more metros after the initial one is built.

Metro 2 serving the south central and south west of the city would be crucial towards the city reaching it's potential. Big areas like harolds cross/rathmines, terenure, rathfarnham, knocklyon and tallaght all getting what it deserves.

The dart underground is likely to be built in or around this period also.

I would see metro 3 being an orbital metro around the city akin to the original metro west. I would see it as the final worthwhile piece of the jigsaw rather than an absolutely crucial piece like the first two metros. Given the big investment in dublin by then, it's likely this project will be delayed to ensure regional hubs like cork get the transport system it deserves.

Given this thread is about hopes and dreams, my predictions would be the following timeline;

Metro 1: 2027
Dart underground: 2037
Metro 2: 2042
Metro 3: 2050

Sam Russell

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

The big thing is getting metro 1 built. You would have to hope that there will be a real appetite for more metros after the initial one is built.

Metro 2 serving the south central and south west of the city would be crucial towards the city reaching it's potential. Big areas like harolds cross/rathmines, terenure, rathfarnham, knocklyon and tallaght all getting what it deserves.

The dart underground is likely to be built in or around this period also.

I would see metro 3 being an orbital metro around the city akin to the original metro west. I would see it as the final worthwhile piece of the jigsaw rather than an absolutely crucial piece like the first two metros. Given the big investment in dublin by then, it's likely this project will be delayed to ensure regional hubs like cork get the transport system it deserves.

Given this thread is about hopes and dreams, my predictions would be the following timeline;

Metro 1: 2027
Dart underground: 2037
Metro 2: 2042
Metro 3: 2050

I would have it:

Metro 1: 2026
Dart Underground: 2032
Metro 2: 2035
Metro 3: 2050.

Once Metro 1 starts construction, pressure will be on to complete it, and perhaps start using the Swords to Airport section as soon as possible.

Dublin Underground will be planned immediately the Metro 1 starts getting used widely, which will be week 2 of full operation. Week 6 will be when the 'Why did we not build this two decades ago? Why do we not build more of these?'

Metro 2 will be under pressure to be built, and the experience of the Metro 1 and Dart Underground will speed up its design and construction.

Metro 3, I think will be given a longer gestation period. It will be time for Cork Limerick and Galway get railed up.

We might get EU funding for some of this, either as loan or grant.

winedback

Why not have a SW-NE line bisect OC Street for Metrolink transfers and Drumcondra DART station for DART transfers?

winedback

My crayoned map of that idea here... imgur.com/a/SN1osVN

citizen6

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Saw this on FB yesterday:



Route Map in link:

https://www.facebook.com/FrancisNoelDuffy/photos/a.718837338146745.1073741828.718141228216356/1908306232533177/?type=3

Looks like voter bingo. If it was a serious suggestion he would have picked a single route instead of trying to please everyone. Or maybe I underestimate the number of people living in Ballinteer and working in Firhouse.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Harold's Cross to Whitfield Road passes close to the City Centre. It would pass close to St Patrick's Cathedral, and the Four Courts/Smithfield. Smithfield is 1 km from O'Connell Bridge.

If it is not to merge with Metrolink which reduces capacity, it needs to keep west of it, and it is less than 1 km from most of that part of town. If DU were built, it would link with that as well.

Plenty of links creates a network.

Sam have you a particular fondness for the actress June Whitfield or do you mean Whitworth Road in this and all of your subsequent posts?

Seeing as it’s best to be precise in this thread?

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sam have you a particular fondness for the actress June Whitfield or do you mean Whitworth Road in this and all of your subsequent posts?

Seeing as it’s best to be precise in this thread?

Obviously I have mis-remembered the name which is why I prefer it called Cross Guns.

I'll have to edit the posts.

Pete_Cavan

The south east of the city could be served by extending the post Metrolink Luas (i.e. the existing Green Line which will remain Luas) to serve areas like Rathfarnham and Terenure. It would act as a feeder service for Metrolink and also provide transport to Sandyford, Cherrywood, etc. I don't know what a realistic route might be but there are several parks, riversides and slivers of green around there, joining them up is the difficult part.

This is more achievable in the short to medium term than rerouting Metrolink. These attempts to find a route that suits everyone will result in it going to the city centre via Stepaside. We have had enough camels delivered by committees, let's have a horse for once.