Should we protest against the pope's visit?

martyc5674

Glass fused light wrote: »

slow day and all but I am feeling a little sad being ignored .....

Those census figures stand for SFA.
Sure we baptised our 2 kids in case we didn’t get them into the school we wanted.

And even so... people need choice, it wouldn’t be possible to cover all faiths in every town, so the obvious answer is to remove faith formation from the schools.

Personally I think it suits a lot of parents that it happens at school, saved them the work.

Glass fused light

work wrote: »

The church has done untold damage to the people of this Island. I started this thread as I would like to see them out of our state funded schools. In fairness I did not state this really there but this would be my objective.
Many others may have more pressing concerns that they could bring up.
If you do not stand up to be counted then your opinion can never be heard and the power is left with those that do stand up.
I am not sure what we are "up against", would you like to explain?

martyc5674 wrote: »

Those census figures stand for SFA.
Sure we baptised our 2 kids in case we didn’t get them into the school we wanted.

And even so... people need choice, it wouldn’t be possible to cover all faiths in every town, so the obvious answer is to remove faith formation from the schools.

Personally I think it suits a lot of parents that it happens at school, saved them the work.

martyc5674

I’m baffled by the last post... smile = superior maybe? Good for you.

Have a read of this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/census-2016-will-get-religion-all-wrong-1.2613938?mode=amp

Glass fused light

martyc5674 wrote: »

I’m baffled by the last post... smile = superior maybe? Good for you.

Have a read of this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/census-2016-will-get-religion-all-wrong-1.2613938?mode=amp

smile = QED

The opinion piece = QED

martyc5674

Glass fused light wrote: »

smile = QED

The opinion piece = QED

Right, that's wonderful, it would be more meaningful if you engaged in the conversation though.

Wombatman

Three gigs is the maximum number allowed for Croker under planning permission granted by An Bord Pleanála. Tickets are on sale for four gigs in Croke Park this year – two performances by Taylor Swift and one by Michael Bublé and one by The Rolling Stones.

Can't believe the residents are accepting another performance and the hoards of unruly crackpots it will attract.

Allinall

Wombatman wrote: »

Three gigs is the maximum number allowed for Croker under planning permission granted by An Bord Pleanála. Tickets are on sale for four gigs in Croke Park this year – two performances by Taylor Swift and one by Michael Bublé and one by The Rolling Stones.

Can't believe the residents are accepting another performance and the hoards of unruly crackpots it will attract.

But the Leinster final is held in croker every year.

It’s tradition at this stage.

Glass fused light

martyc5674 wrote: »

Glass fused light wrote: »

smile = QED

The opinion piece = QED

Right, that's wonderful, it would be more meaningful if you engaged in the conversation though.

Look, it's AH,  I just followed this thread as I enjoy irony and reading the mental tap dancing some of the posts display.  And little gems like this.

Allinall wrote: »

But the Leinster final is held in croker every year.

It’s tradition at this stage.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Allinall wrote: »

But the Leinster final is held in croker every year.

It’s tradition at this stage.

Yeah, blind Irish tradition. What could possibly go wrong?

martyc5674

martyc5674 wrote: »

Answer the question... would you send them to a Muslim patronage school?

Very few people have the financial resources to homeschool.

Well graces7,yes or no to the above question?

An_Toirpin

Protesting at the Pope visiting is like protesting a Gay Pride event.

corks finest

work wrote: »

I believe a huge protest against the popes visit is required to show the government and church they are no longer welcome or wanted in our society. What do you think? There are many stakeholders that should protest their removal from any influence in our society. Some that come to mind are:
1) Anyone not supportive of misogyny
2) Anyone that doesn't believe in school indoctrination of children in a massive lie.
3) Anyone concerned about abusers in positions allowing abuse
4) Anyone with the most basic scientific education.
5) Anyone that doesn't support cults
6) Anyone that believes LGBT people should be treated fairly in society.
7) Anyone that believes women should have ANY control of their bodies.
8) Anyone that is not seen as equal in the church namely women children and men.


There are many other areas but I realised I have covered everyone. As such let's all go to the Phoenix park to let the Vatican know they are not welcome.
Are there any peaceful groups planning to protest?

Yes protest against the protesters

An_Toirpin

If you do not wish for religion do not participate in one. No one has a right to collectively decide the religion is not welcome in Ireland Secularists do not collective rights. Only individuals have rights. Secularists have no more rights to impose their values on theists people, then theists have to impose their will on secular people.
Any one is free to protest, but protesting against the existence of churches, Papal visits or atheist conventions is ill advised.

Leroy42

Isn't it great how the religious are so into individuals freedoms and respect for other beliefs and life choices. I welcome that but they sure took their sweet time and caused massive harm before this new enlightenment

Pagan Death March

Op is free to protest the Pope's visit but he won't, of course.

sonofenoch

Is that the Royal 'we' .....why not just ignore it like a sensible person

but no the left love a protest.....it's all about freedom of expression but only if it's their version

Leroy42

The left love to protest?

I take it you've never seen a protest outside an abortion clinic?

sonofenoch

Leroy42 wrote: »

The left love to protest?

I take it you've never seen a protest outside an abortion clinic?

Oddly enough no....I need to get out more

work

work wrote: »

The church has done untold damage to the people of this Island. I started this thread as I would like to see them out of our state funded schools.

That's easy peasy. You do know how that can be done? It would involve the Irish state spending many billions out of the state's capital budget to buy all those schools, playing pitches and all the rest which are the legal property of the international business that is the Roman Catholic Church. That's the cold, hard legal reality. To get Irish land off the Brits, Irish people had to buy them out (in the land acts between 1870 and 1909); to get Irish land off the RCC, Irish people will have to buy them out. All very legal.

Alternatively, the Irish state can keep those billions and continue using the property of the RCC rent free, paying only for the upkeep of those premises. If you were Minister for Finance of this state what would you do coming up to budget time? It's the Irish people's choice.

In the meantime, it's decidedly ungrateful of Irish citizens to continue using RCC property while asserting ownership over it. It's like people walking through my land and then claiming ownership of it because I was kind enough to let them use it.

In other words, people in the Irish state who want that RCC property need to put up the money for those properties, or whisht. Barring a communist takeover, it really is that simple.

Grab All Association

Grab All Association wrote: »

Works too

You can also insert Judaism, Protestant, Presbyterian etc into that post.

Why not protest against all religions.

And consumerism. In 2018, religions are so last century, so marginal. Time to get the courage to take on the new fundamentalism right in the centre of our society that's infinitely more influential on most lives than religion has ever been.

RobbingBandit

Vendetta il papa

martyc5674

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Protesting at the Pope visiting is like protesting a Gay Pride event.

Not at all comparable.
The Pope is the leader of a misogynistic group, not to mention the wake of harm it has left in its path in the schools. I can understand why some would protest his visit.

silverharp

I'd prefer to drop some likes or dislikes as appropriate, will that do?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

In other words, people in the Irish state who want that RCC property need to put up the money for those properties, or whisht. Barring a communist takeover, it really is that simple.

Or simply wait for them to die out and not be replaced.

The Marist brothers in my hometown have essentially given up control of both schools simply because they don't have the numbers to provide the service. Masses are being cut back drastically, because there aren't the numbers of priests available to do them. The Nuns who ran the girls school have pretty much all ended up in the retirement home, the school itself sold to the state, and the convent sold for very little.

Just give it another decade or so, and I'm sure they'll probably sell off most schools at a discount.

martyc5674

martyc5674 wrote: »

Not at all comparable.
The Pope is the leader of a misogynistic group, not to mention the wake of harm it has left in its path in the schools. I can understand why some would protest his visit.

Whereas he is the representative leader of a faith, that has also provided a lot of good will/behavior to the world. It's not as simple as many people would like to suggest it is. I can certainly understand why many people would welcome his visit, and not be willing to join the mob in their hatred of all things Catholic.

I'm agnostic and really don't like religion, of any kind.... but it's done very little harm to me, even though I was raised in a religious household and went to religious schools. I'm not going to rush out in welcome to the Pope, but at the same time, I bear him or the church absolutely no ill will.

doolox

Pretend he does not exist. Ignore him. Just go about your normal routine. Giving these people either affection or hostility is acknowledging their existence and rendering them some significance in your life.

I remember at school being treated with great hostility by the so-called religious teachers in my so-called religious school. Student and pupils who were hostile to religion and God, which many teenagers were, could be handled and managed by the brothers, as could the zealots and holy ones, who were regarded with more suspicion. The ones the brothers despised and feared most were the indifferent ones who were indifferent to religion.

I go my own way, I have been encouraged by my father to do so. I would subscribe to a religious practice only in so much that it gets my kids into the right schools. gets my family and relatives into the right jobs and keeps the zealots from ruining my life. Sacraments and other outward signs of religious identity used to be needed to get into schools, get married in a church to keep the wife happy or other life milestones. There is no other practical benefit to religion.

AllForIt

I think it's interesting that the volume of ppl at events in Knock and Dublin are capped due to 'health and safety reasons'. Did anyone die in 1979 due to a stampede? It's not like the ppl going there are the same demographic as those attending a rock concert. To me it's an attempt to disguise the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near the volume of ppl who turned up in 1979.

But to protest about him coming here? No, why? Anyone who has a problem with religion, on the whole, never object to one having a religious belief but rather the way it was forced on our society. That is going going gone now and I have no problem with the Pope coming to Ireland. If one really believes that we are free to do what we like within the law then that person must also logically agree that ppl are free to practice their religion - and if that means something as unimportant as a church rep visiting the country then totally fine by me.

I wont be paying any attention - just like the football world cup.

Yester

The Pope song. Tim Minchin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtgmKRp5Nlg

work

AllForIt wrote: »

Anyone who has a problem with religion, on the whole, never object to one having a religious belief but rather the way it was forced on our society. That is going going gone now and I have no problem with the Pope coming to Ireland.

I wont be paying any attention - just like the football world cup.

I agree with all you say however we are still "forced" into religeon through school where no real alternatives exist. The church show a complete split from our general values as per the last few referenda. Leave them in peace but only when they leave us in peace.

work

doolox wrote: »

I would subscribe to a religious practice only in so much that it gets my kids into the right schools. gets my family and relatives into the right jobs and keeps the zealots from ruining my life. Sacraments and other outward signs of religious identity used to be needed to get into schools, get married in a church to keep the wife happy or other life milestones. There is no other practical benefit to religion.

Your points are where many are but isn't it time we shouldn't have to "subscribe" to a random baseless faith to get a schooling, job etc. We need to move on. I would think ignoring them is probably correct except for their placement in important elements of our life

Creative83

AllForIt wrote: »

I think it's interesting that the volume of ppl at events in Knock and Dublin are capped due to 'health and safety reasons'. Did anyone die in 1979 due to a stampede? It's not like the ppl going there are the same demographic as those attending a rock concert. To me it's an attempt to disguise the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near the volume of ppl who turned up in.

Health and Safety legislation has been much improved and enforced in recent decades. It isn't some conspiracy

Glass fused light

AllForIt wrote: »

I think it's interesting that the volume of ppl at events in Knock and Dublin are capped due to 'health and safety reasons'. Did anyone die in 1979 due to a stampede? It's not like the ppl going there are the same demographic as those attending a rock concert. To me it's an attempt to disguise the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near the volume of ppl who turned up in 1979.

The numbers were capped back then too and people were given a specific standing area and a entry location. And there were marshals within each parish group for H&S. There may be less numbers but the demographic is much broader than most rock concerts and will range from the disabled, the very old to the young and this all has to be catered for. Back then with the NI troubles, while terrorist activity was a concern each side drew a line at attacking religeous events so stampede risk was low. Unfortunately the same cant be said today.

Leroy42

This fluffy, caring church is only a recent phenomenon in Ireland, and welcome as that is, let us not pretend that it was by choice or by some enlightenment. They were forced to change by the sheer weight of scandals against them. Only recently we had the church arguing that canon law takes precedence of the law of the state!

But the church has not only stood by but actively protected and covered up institutional rape of children. They have forced mothers to give up their babies for no other reason than it was against their moral code. They have undertaken beatings in schools. This is the institution that in the past have allowed things like the Spanish Inquisition and the witch trials. Sure it was in the past but even now they are covering up abuse and telling people in Africa not to use condemns, not because they don't believe they work, but it again goes against the code.

And people think we should welcome what it essentially a PR and recruitment drive to Ireland?

Have the church dealt with the Tuam scandal? Have they gone back and dealt with all past clerical pare and abuse? Have they dealt with the mothers from the Magdalene Laundries? Have they opened up their records to deal with the babies removed from their mothers and given up for adoption in the US?

Its is great if it hasn't effected you personally, but it severely damaged the lives of thousands of people. People that have been forced to endure being portrayed as liars when they tried to tell their story, defended at every turn by the church more worried about itself and its assets than the person they had wronged. Eventually it comes out that not only did the abuse happen, but the church knew about it at the time and knew that person was telling the truth, yet allowed them to relive the orderal to try to save themselves.

Graces7

Leroy42 wrote: »

This fluffy, caring church is only a recent phenomenon in Ireland, and welcome as that is, let us not pretend that it was by choice or by some enlightenment. They were forced to change by the sheer weight of scandals against them. Only recently we had the church arguing that canon law takes precedence of the law of the state!

But the church has not only stood by but actively protected and covered up institutional rape of children. They have forced mothers to give up their babies for no other reason than it was against their moral code. They have undertaken beatings in schools. This is the institution that in the past have allowed things like the Spanish Inquisition and the witch trials. Sure it was in the past but even now they are covering up abuse and telling people in Africa not to use condemns, not because they don't believe they work, but it again goes against the code.

And people think we should welcome what it essentially a PR and recruitment drive to Ireland?

Have the church dealt with the Tuam scandal? Have they gone back and dealt with all past clerical pare and abuse? Have they dealt with the mothers from the Magdalene Laundries? Have they opened up their records to deal with the babies removed from their mothers and given up for adoption in the US?

Its is great if it hasn't effected you personally, but it severely damaged the lives of thousands of people. People that have been forced to endure being portrayed as liars when they tried to tell their story, defended at every turn by the church more worried about itself and its assets than the person they had wronged. Eventually it comes out that not only did the abuse happen, but the church knew about it at the time and knew that person was telling the truth, yet allowed them to relive the orderal to try to save themselves.

.
Albatross

And yes I am an abuse survivor but have decided/chosen to walk on and leave the past, and yes to forgive, and that is a choice as is your choice to let that dead bird hang around your neck and weigh you down. I walk in the Light and support many survivors.

Leroy42

Graces7 wrote: »

.
Albatross

And yes I am an abuse survivor but have decided/chosen to walk on and leave the past, and yes to forgive, and that is a choice as is your choice to let that dead bird hang around your neck and weigh you down. I walk in the Light and support many survivors.

It not about that. It's about protecting those that come after us.

I applaud your ability to forgive, you are a far stronger person that I will ever be. But it is surely irresponsible of the state to forget. To welcome the very same organisation that caused so much hurt and pain with open arms.

To give the head of such a organisation, which used it considerable assets to try to subvert justice, to try to override the very laws of our state. To try to claim that their organisation is more important not only of the individual but the very nation in which we live.

When the church open their books and records so that we, the state, can understand the true depth of the problem. When they front up with being proactive in helping victims come forward to get closure, rather than try to limit the damage.

When they do that I will welcome them. But all they have said is sorry, we will try to do better. But even with all the hurt they have done in the past, they continue to drag it out by not coming forward now.

Look at Tuam. The church knew about that. Yet they left it to some historian to uncover it, and tried to hold them off at every turn. Will we continue to see new cases of historical (I use that term in the sense of it already has happened rather than in terms of the age of it) abuse? Because if we do, and the church knows about them, then they haven't changed. And we all know that is going to happen, because it keeps happening.

Graces7

Leroy42 wrote: »

It not about that. It's about protecting those that come after us.

I applaud your ability to forgive, you are a far stronger person that I will ever be. But it is surely irresponsible of the state to forget. To welcome the very same organisation that caused so much hurt and pain with open arms.

No one is forgetting. Sorry; cannot read the same things over and over again. No one is forgetting. I was literally sick for three days when Tuam surfaced. And spent hours in the graveyard at Letterfrack.

When I first came to ireland, I was commissioned to write a book on the state of the Catholic Church in the early years of the new century

This was on the eve of the first scandals breaking and my commission got me entry to places and people few access. I knew and know far more than most.

If you do not forgive, then it is YOU you are hurting. Only you

You are seeing one side. An unbalanced view. And there is still a strong church here of folk whose faith is not in the Church but in God, in Jesus. Wonderful folk who do so much good. So quietly and who lament what was done.

The Pope is a political figure also.A head of state. If you start demoing against heads of state you do not agree with?

No one is forgetting. How could we? The State is still trying to decide what to do with the Tuam site and has spent a huge sum getting experts in. That is all they can do. Almost all the Order that ran Tuam are dead and gone.

All we can do is pick up the survivors and plan ahead. I am working with that too and have the peace I wish I could give you..

Mind you, there was the day a Christian Buggar...opps! Brother, came to my market stall boasting who he was .... and I fairly lambasted him.

Graces7

PS worry not that anything like that can ever happen again. It cannot, Too many defences against it . The teeth are drawn. No fangs left

eviltwin

Graces7 wrote: »

.
Albatross

And yes I am an abuse survivor but have decided/chosen to walk on and leave the past, and yes to forgive, and that is a choice as is your choice to let that dead bird hang around your neck and weigh you down. I walk in the Light and support many survivors.

I'm also an abuse survivor. I made peace with that long ago and I'm doing great. I'm not bitter or angry, I don't have hate in my heart or anything like that.

I think I'm lucky I lived in a time we could talk about our experience, we weren't shamed for it, there was somewhere we could go for help and (in my case) there was financial assistance to do so. I'm also lucky i was in a position to make a choice to leave the religion behind me and move away from the environment that facilitated my abuse.

I'm also very aware not everyone could or can do that, I know people who still can't admit what happened to them out of fear, I know people who had years of their lives blighted by abuse, who never had a chance to recover, I know there are people no longer around today because the pain was too great.....I'm protesting for them, I'm not doing it to make any attendees feel bad or ruin the event and I'm definitely not doing it for money. It's just something I need to do, I know it will be helpful to me even if it doesn't achieve anything tangible.

The 9 year old me didn't have a choice in what happened. The 41 year old me does and I'm choosing to stand up for myself and others as ridiculous as that might seem to others.

Graces7

Just dropping this in; have to go to bed! Food for thought in many ways

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0622/972438-pope-visit-touting/

martyc5674

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas he is the representative leader of a faith, that has also provided a lot of good will/behavior to the world. It's not as simple as many people would like to suggest it is. I can certainly understand why many people would welcome his visit, and not be willing to join the mob in their hatred of all things Catholic.

I'm agnostic and really don't like religion, of any kind.... but it's done very little harm to me, even though I was raised in a religious household and went to religious schools. I'm not going to rush out in welcome to the Pope, but at the same time, I bear him or the church absolutely no ill will.

No one protesting is protesting against the religion, they are protesting the abuse of power the abuse of women the abuse of children that they have gotten away with for years.
You won’t see any placards shunning catholics/Catholicism.

He is the leader of a group who have destroyed so many families and I feel we are still only scratching the surface,with abuse stories hitting the media daily, they are slow to acknowledge anything and need to change this stance before they win back support.

Hitman3000

Graces7 wrote:

Just dropping this in; have to go to bed! Food for thought in many ways

Fools and their money springs to mind.

Ipso

AllForIt wrote: »

I think it's interesting that the volume of ppl at events in Knock and Dublin are capped due to 'health and safety reasons'. Did anyone die in 1979 due to a stampede? It's not like the ppl going there are the same demographic as those attending a rock concert. To me it's an attempt to disguise the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near the volume of ppl who turned up in 1979.

But to protest about him coming here? No, why? Anyone who has a problem with religion, on the whole, never object to one having a religious belief but rather the way it was forced on our society. That is going going gone now and I have no problem with the Pope coming to Ireland. If one really believes that we are free to do what we like within the law then that person must also logically agree that ppl are free to practice their religion - and if that means something as unimportant as a church rep visiting the country then totally fine by me.

I wont be paying any attention - just like the football world cup.

Isn't that ironic, in a non Alanis Morissette way.

Rubberchikken

No. He's visiting our country just like any other leader. He deserves to be welcomed warmly.

Leroy42

Rubberchikken wrote: »

No. He's visiting our country just like any other leader. He deserves to be welcomed warmly.

If another country had treated us with the disdain and caused so much hurt and pain to so many of our citizens would you have the same opinion?

Should we welcome the head of the ISIS caliphate?

Timberrrrrrrr

Leroy42 wrote: »

If another country had treated us with the disdain and caused so much hurt and pain to so many of our citizens would you have the same opinion?

Should we welcome the head of the ISIS caliphate?

Didn't the queen of England visit recently?

hatrickpatrick

I'll be protesting. Sexual conservatism is a twisted ideology and needs to die.

Leroy42

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Didn't the queen of England visit recently?

The UK last carried out terrible things in our country some 80 years or so ago. We have been engaged in a long period of getting a closer a more equal relationship with both countries and the Queens visit was a further step on that road.

The Church is still covering up abuse. Still withholding evidence. Very recently claimed that Canon law was above our laws.

Until such time as the church attempts to right the wrong of the past, by standing up for the victims either than trying to silence them/degrade them, then we are dealing with an organisation that is actively working against the interests of some of our citizens.

pauliebdub

There's a posting doing the rounds on Facebook where they want people to protest the visit by ordering the free tickets to the Phoenix park and not showing up. Rather mean imo, why deprive tickets from people who genuinely want to go.

Blaas4life

If people wanna protest let em....what harm..so long as there being peaceful??


Also....I think we should all be getting a bank holiday for this to on the piss

Hitman3000

pauliebdub wrote:

There's a posting doing the rounds on Facebook where they want people to protest the visit by ordering the free tickets to the Phoenix park and not showing up. Rather mean imo, why deprive tickets from people who genuinely want to go.

That's a great idea thanks for the heads up. Must get my friends in on it. Thanks.