Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Blaas4life

Hitman3000 wrote: »

That's a great idea thanks for the heads up. Must get my friends in on it. Thanks.

You have friends? :eek:

Hitman3000

Blaas4life wrote:

You have friends?

Don't we all, some even have invisible friends.

Timberrrrrrrr

Leroy42 wrote: »

The UK last carried out terrible things in our country some 80 years or so ago. We have been engaged in a long period of getting a closer a more equal relationship with both countries and the Queens visit was a further step on that road.

The Church is still covering up abuse. Still withholding evidence. Very recently claimed that Canon law was above our laws.

Until such time as the church attempts to right the wrong of the past, by standing up for the victims either than trying to silence them/degrade them, then we are dealing with an organisation that is actively working against the interests of some of our citizens.

Bloody Sunday was only just over half that and I'm sure more knowledgeable posters will point to atrocities more recent than that.

Listen I have no time for the pope, the RCC or any religion for that matter. I think the best "protest" that people can have would be to just ignore his visit if they feel that strongly about it. The less crowds shown on the news reports the better.

Edit: The British government to this day are also withholding evidence and actively workk (ed) against the interest of Irish citizens. I see the Duke and Dutchess of Sussex will be visiting soon and will be welcomed.

Ipso

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Bloody Sunday was only just over half that and I'm sure more knowledgeable posters will point to atrocities more recent than that.

Listen I have no time for the pope, the RCC or any religion for that matter. I think the best "protest" that people can have would be to just ignore his visit if they feel that strongly about it. The less crowds shown on the news reports the better.

Especially given that some of the protestors are the type that are not very good at it and there will be a load of attention seekers who will probably end up distracting away from the main issues.

Blaas4life

Ipso wrote: »

Especially given that some of the protestors are the type that are not very good at it and there will be a load of attention seekers who will probably end up distracting away from the main issues.

Tbh the protesters aren't gonna get anywhere near it like


I do believe everyone should have right to protest though....like I wouldn't bother going to see the pope or bother going for the protest....but each to their own


It's forever better for a country for people to be politically engaged and attending protests etc (even if you wholeheartedly disagree with em) than to sit at home and let apathy and disinterest set in and feeling of helplessness that you cant change things

work

martyc5674 wrote: »

No one protesting is protesting against the religion, they are protesting the abuse of power the abuse of women the abuse of children that they have gotten away with for years.
You won’t see any placards shunning catholics/Catholicism.

He is the leader of a group who have destroyed so many families and I feel we are still only scratching the surface,with abuse stories hitting the media daily, they are slow to acknowledge anything and need to change this stance before they win back support.

Yes as a group they have shown little reason to be trusted. they are slow to apologise for atrocities and as such show little understanding of what they pretend to preach. Honesty and love.

An_Toirpin

work wrote: »

Yes as a group they have shown little reason to be trusted. they are slow to apologise for atrocities and as such show little understanding of what they pretend to preach. Honesty and love.

You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?

whisky_galore

An_Toirpin wrote: »

You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?

I wonder how many people in Tuam protested about it while it was actually in operation? Big fat zero I'll bet. It happened on that generations watch.

johnnyskeleton

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'll be protesting. Sexual conservatism is a twisted ideology and needs to die.

Isnt the best of protesting this to simply ignore them? It is, after all, the only way to show that you genuinely dont care

work

An_Toirpin wrote: »

You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?

majority of abuse stopped in the 70s. fantastic then all forgiven. I have multiple family members subjected to very dubious church abuse. this happened in Ireland not somewhere else. this is all very recent and I truly believe most victims say nothing for personal reasons. Their apologies have been too few and far between, they are slow coming and VERY slow to make amends.
Just because you protest the Catholic church does not mean you agree with what every other group ever did! the RC church is a misogynistic cesspool with not a shred of evidence to back up its promotion of the Deity they plug yet worked their way into the fabric of our society.
I am shocked by Varadkers support given their homophobic views. It's like the jews voting for Hitler.....does he not get the irony!

Personally I am delighted to see them coming out of the schools. This is my only agenda. However I am shocked minority faiths will be left with the right to choose their pupils. This is discriminatory and supports other deity systems with no evidence. What a joke. Ban ALL religeon from schools. If parents want their kids bought up in a specific baseless faith whatever that is they should do it in their own time and with their own resources.

An_Toirpin

work wrote: »

majority of abuse stopped in the 70s. fantastic then all forgiven. I have multiple family members subjected to very dubious church abuse. this happened in Ireland not somewhere else. this is all very recent and I truly believe most victims say nothing for personal reasons. Their apologies have been too few and far between, they are slow coming and VERY slow to make amends.
Just because you protest the Catholic church does not mean you agree with what every other group ever did! the RC church is a misogynistic cesspool with not a shred of evidence to back up its promotion of the Deity they plug yet worked their way into the fabric of our society.
I am shocked by Varadkers support given their homophobic views. It's like the jews voting for Hitler.....does he not get the irony!

Personally I am delighted to see them coming out of the schools. This is my only agenda. However I am shocked minority faiths will be left with the right to choose their pupils. This is discriminatory and supports other deity systems with no evidence. What a joke. Ban ALL religeon from schools. If parents want their kids bought up in a specific baseless faith whatever that is they should do it in their own time and with their own resources.

There is no one in Ireland in a position of power how had anything to with the abuse, that level of accountablity is unlike nealry every other Irish scandal. The churches reaction at first was poor but in the last 10 years it has been very good. The fact that you simply say you're only agenda is to end religion is self apperent. I thought it was about the victims. :rolleyes:

Leroy42

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The churches reaction at first was poor but in the last 10 years it has been very good.

That is quite a statement. What particularly have they done they have made it very good.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The fact that you simply say you're only agenda is to end religion is self apparent. I thought it was about the victims. :rolleyes:

Not sure the poster said they wanted to end religion, in fact they stated they were happy for people to do it for themselves. They want to get rid of religion in schools.

The usual question, would you be happy if the catholic church was replaced by Islam as the default religion in all schools?

An_Toirpin

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is quite a statement. What particularly have they done they have made it very good.




Not sure the poster said they wanted to end religion, in fact they stated they were happy for people to do it for themselves. They want to get rid of religion in schools.

The usual question, would you be happy if the catholic church was replaced by Islam as the default religion in all schools?

The anti religion message was clear. I am very proud of the fact that Ireland tolerant enough to have public muslim schools in Ireland and the many other denominations too. That is pluralism. If the public want more muslim schools so be it. They will surely raise the money for themseves, unlike the cheap secularists here trying to seize church schools for free.

Leroy42

You are looking at it as an attack on religion, and that is not what it is. It is looking for religion to be freely practiced, but also those that don't want to or believe, that they should have the choice.

Happily, in recent years educate together etc have created more choice, but there is a lot more work to be done. But religion, a belief system based on a book, has no place in the education sphere, save for telling children that it exists and the good things and bad things it has done.

You avoided my question. If it really about just having religion in school, then surely all children should be given the choice of which religion class to attend, which events to partake in (communion etc).

It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.

An_Toirpin

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are looking at it as an attack on religion, and that is not what it is. It is looking for religion to be freely practiced, but also those that don't want to or believe, that they should have the choice.

Happily, in recent years educate together etc have created more choice, but there is a lot more work to be done. But religion, a belief system based on a book, has no place in the education sphere, save for telling children that it exists and the good things and bad things it has done.

You avoided my question. If it really about just having religion in school, then surely all children should be given the choice of which religion class to attend, which events to partake in (communion etc).

It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.

I agree religion is subjective and not for everyone but no more than the many subjects. Some people want to cut out English from the secondary schools system, others believe Irish should be gone and there are those who think the history curriculum is biased and inappropriate. The idea that religious people who pay tax should not be allowed to teach religion to those who seek it is an insult to personal liberty and phlisophically irrational.

Yes we need more educate togethers but please dont restrict my liberty in the process.



It is interesting how people inlcuding politicians plead for greater separation of church and state while in the recent Minister Madigan scandal our Gov felt appropriate to tell the Catholic Church to accept female priests. This 'war' is about dominance and not expanding personal liberty.

Sycamore Tree

What bothers me the most about the Roman church is that they are still withholding information from their victims. They should be forced to make their data free to anyone including the Gardaí.
I don't understand how people darken the doors of churches while they act this way.

Sycamore Tree

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.

The Roman church did get a very dodgy deal from that FF government for redress costs. They taxpayer is paying for their crimes against humanity.

Sycamore Tree

Leroy42 wrote: »

This fluffy, caring church is only a recent phenomenon in Ireland, and welcome as that is, let us not pretend that it was by choice or by some enlightenment. They were forced to change by the sheer weight of scandals against them. Only recently we had the church arguing that canon law takes precedence of the law of the state!

But the church has not only stood by but actively protected and covered up institutional rape of children. They have forced mothers to give up their babies for no other reason than it was against their moral code. They have undertaken beatings in schools. This is the institution that in the past have allowed things like the Spanish Inquisition and the witch trials. Sure it was in the past but even now they are covering up abuse and telling people in Africa not to use condemns, not because they don't believe they work, but it again goes against the code.

And people think we should welcome what it essentially a PR and recruitment drive to Ireland?

Have the church dealt with the Tuam scandal? Have they gone back and dealt with all past clerical pare and abuse? Have they dealt with the mothers from the Magdalene Laundries? Have they opened up their records to deal with the babies removed from their mothers and given up for adoption in the US?

Its is great if it hasn't effected you personally, but it severely damaged the lives of thousands of people. People that have been forced to endure being portrayed as liars when they tried to tell their story, defended at every turn by the church more worried about itself and its assets than the person they had wronged. Eventually it comes out that not only did the abuse happen, but the church knew about it at the time and knew that person was telling the truth, yet allowed them to relive the orderal to try to save themselves.

Great post

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

work wrote: »

I believe a huge protest against the popes visit is required to show the government and church they are no longer welcome or wanted in our society. What do you think? There are many stakeholders that should protest their removal from any influence in our society. Some that come to mind are:
1) Anyone not supportive of misogyny
2) Anyone that doesn't believe in school indoctrination of children in a massive lie.
3) Anyone concerned about abusers in positions allowing abuse
4) Anyone with the most basic scientific education.
5) Anyone that doesn't support cults
6) Anyone that believes LGBT people should be treated fairly in society.
7) Anyone that believes women should have ANY control of their bodies.
8) Anyone that is not seen as equal in the church namely women children and men.


There are many other areas but I realised I have covered everyone. As such let's all go to the Phoenix park to let the Vatican know they are not welcome.
Are there any peaceful groups planning to protest?

Should "we"....?

Will YOU protest?

When's his unholiness coming, anyway (if you'll pardon the pun)?

Banterbus28

There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?

Nonsense. If Catholics want him to visit Ireland then he's welcome, end of. No need for a discussion on it.

Does it hirt you in anyway to have the Pope in the same country as you?

Does it affect your lifestyle?

Nope. Ridiculous notion.

An_Toirpin

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

What bothers me the most about the Roman church is that they are still withholding information from their victims. They should be forced to make their data free to anyone including the Gardaí.
I don't understand how people darken the doors of churches while they act this way.

What information? I don't know many examples of data being withheld from the Gardai.

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The Roman church did get a very dodgy deal from that FF government for redress costs. They taxpayer is paying for their crimes against humanity.

I am happy to criticise some lements of the deal and it was typical FF fiscally reckless (in some cases money paid out to people who were undeserving and insane legal fees), however the Louise O'Keeffe case showed that the State did have some liability so it was invitable that they contribute.

martyc5674

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The anti religion message was clear. I am very proud of the fact that Ireland tolerant enough to have public muslim schools in Ireland and the many other denominations too. That is pluralism. If the public want more muslim schools so be it. They will surely raise the money for themseves, unlike the cheap secularists here trying to seize church schools for free.

You see, I believe there should be no such thing as Muslim schools, as RC schools etc etc... by doing so you are excluding others. And this is what the CC have quite effectively done. Labelling a school by its religion is sheer exclusiveness..., right at the front gate.
There should just be schools, where all are welcome, but that doesn’t suit the CCs agenda so they are slow to let go.
They want forced baptism to keep their numbers up... there is so much wrong with this on many levels and too many people subscribe to this nonsense even though they are non believers.

Hitman3000

Banterbus28 wrote:

There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?

People have a right to protest if they so wish. Get over it, we are a democratic society and protest is a fundamental tenent of democracy. End of.

martyc5674

Banterbus28 wrote: »

There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?
.

Because he is the leader of a group who have committed crimes against humanity, a group who have brushed so much under the carpet... pulled children out of young mothers hands never to be seen again, raped and beaten and tortured children in schools. Have been and still are a mysoginst group.
The laundries,letterfrack, the Tuam babies... the list is endless. All while being high and mighty and all powerful... untouchable and unquestionable.

This is why people might protest... nothing to do with religion.

Donald Trump

Hey look. This isn't new.

Anti-Catholic hate and discrimination has been around for centuries. Trying to mask it as some perceived argument against the church as an institution has been around for as long. But it remains at it's core an attempt to discriminate and oppress a particular group of people

Whether that be Penal Laws or Nativists in America overtly trying to drive out Catholics or deny them rights or opportunities, through to the KKK or then on to the like likes of Paisley up the North in his heyday

Just be honest about it.

The below (in)famous cartoon was published in an attempt to deny poor Irish immigrants the chance to get funding so that they could set up schools educate their children in the US

An_Toirpin

martyc5674 wrote: »

You see, I believe there should be no such thing as Muslim schools, as RC schools etc etc... by doing so you are excluding others. And this is what the CC have quite effectively done. Labelling a school by its religion is sheer exclusiveness..., right at the front gate.
There should just be schools, where all are welcome, but that doesn’t suit the CCs agenda so they are slow to let go.
They want forced baptism to keep their numbers up... there is so much wrong with this on many levels and too many people subscribe to this nonsense even though they are non believers.

Anyone is welcome to enter Catholic schools. Anyone. Not a single Catholic school has only Catholics. Irish Catholic shools have been shown be the more accepting accepting of varying socio economic backgrounds than ETs and other schools.
In a tiny number of schools there is overcrowding (less than 5%). In a small number of these schools people have priorised actual Catholics. Big deal.

Shefwedfan

Oh I’m so hip and cool....now I hate Catholics....

Hopefully people do protest....It’s Year since a good fight.....

Banterbus28

martyc5674 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?
.

Because he is the leader of a group who have committed crimes against humanity, a group who have brushed so much under the carpet... pulled children out of young mothers hands never to be seen again, raped and beaten and tortured children in schools. Have been and still are a mysoginst group.
The laundries,letterfrack, the Tuam babies... the list is endless. All while being high and mighty and all powerful... untouchable and unquestionable.

This is why people might protest... nothing to do with religion.

Ibsee you ignored the rest of my post as it was only convenient for you to use that little snippet.

I'm a protestant and find it absolutely adhorrent that you think it's ok to protest the leader of a faith, this particular pope is quite progressive.

Banterbus28

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote:

There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?

People have a right to protest if they so wish. Get over it, we are a democratic society and protest is a fundamental tenent of democracy. End of.

Not when it's denying someone elsepeace in practicing their faith.

Sure you'd likely think it's wrong for someone to protest outside a mosque or synagogue.

Denying someone peace to practice their faith is wrong. And protesting the visit of a leader of any faith is doing just that.

Wombatman

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hey look. This isn't new.

Anti-Catholic hate.

If you can't understand why some people detest, and might want to protest the leader of this malignant cult you are out of touch with reality. Couching it as some sort of irrational prejudice is totally disingenuous.

I'd be surprised if people didn't protest, considering the amount of deep misery, hurt and pain this organisation has inflicted on some.

- Vile physical, psychological and sexual child abuse
- Covering up and knowingly exposing others to dangerous predators
- Mother and baby prisons
- Pits full of babies
- Anti contraception
- Anti abortion
- Anti gay rights
- Basically anti women
- Anti any kind of proper sex education
- Anti any progressive social change really
- Selling babies
- Destroying evidence and intimidating witnesses
- Shaming and repressing from the pulpit
- Dragging feet on reparations
- Victim blaming

The desire to protest is perfectly in line with human nature in the face of this organisation's track record.

RobertKK

The "I don't want to go, so I will go out of my way to deny others who do want to go" attitude is a disgrace.
The same people probably talk about wanting to live in a free and tolerable society, when they practice the opposite themselves. People can be hypocrites if they want but it is mean spirited and wrong to deny others attending an event they want to attend.
Also if all tickets are taken up and there is an obvious lack of a full attendance, how can this be deemed a success by the people who got tickets to deny others. People will just say some extremists went out of their way to cause this and how petty these people must be. It would just backfire and in the blame game the losers will be the people who took up tickets to deny others as they will be seen for what they are, which isn't anything positive.

RobertKK

Wombatman wrote: »

If you can't understand why some people detest, and might want to protest the leader of this malignant cult you are out of touch with reality. Couching it as some sort of irrational prejudice is totally disingenuous.

I'd be surprised if people didn't protest, considering the amount of deep misery, hurt and pain this organisation has inflicted on some.

- Vile physical, psychological and sexual child abuse
- Covering up and knowingly exposing others to dangerous predators
- Mother and baby prisons
- Pits full of babies
- Anti contraception
- Anti abortion
- Anti gay rights
- Basically anti women
- Anti any kind of proper sex education
- Anti any progressive social change really
- Selling babies
- Destroying evidence and intimidating witnesses
- Shaming and repressing from the pulpit
- Dragging feet on reparations
- Victim blaming

The desire to protest is perfectly in line with human nature in the face of this organisation's track record.

People can protest without denying others attending the events.

Banterbus28

Wombatman wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hey look. This isn't new.

Anti-Catholic hate.

If you can't understand why some people detest, and might want to protest the leader of this malignant cult you are out of touch with reality. Couching it as some sort of irrational prejudice is totally disingenuous.

I'd be surprised if people didn't protest, considering the amount of deep misery, hurt and pain this organisation has inflicted on some.

- Vile physical, psychological and sexual child abuse
- Covering up and knowingly exposing others to dangerous predators
- Mother and baby prisons
- Pits full of babies
- Anti contraception
- Anti abortion
- Anti gay rights
- Basically anti women
- Anti any kind of proper sex education
- Anti any progressive social change really
- Selling babies
- Destroying evidence and intimidating witnesses
- Shaming and repressing from the pulpit
- Dragging feet on reparations
- Victim blaming

The desire to protest is perfectly in line with human nature in the face of this organisation's track record.

Does boycotting not do more?

I'm not saying that any organised religion is free of blame for a number of issues but protesting a visiting faith leader is just stupid.

Banterbus28

RobertKK wrote: »

The "I don't want to go, so I will go out of my way to deny others who do want to go" attitude is a disgrace.
The same people probably talk about wanting to live in a free and tolerable society, when they practice the opposite themselves. People can be hypocrites if they want but it is mean spirited and wrong to deny others attending an event they want to attend.
Also if all tickets are taken up and there is an obvious lack of a full attendance, how can this be deemed a success by the people who got tickets to deny others. People will just say some extremists went out of their way to cause this and how petty these people must be. It would just backfire and in the blame game the losers will be the people who took up tickets to deny others as they will be seen for what they are, which isn't anything positive.

Exactly mate. Why have we gotten to point where this is the norm?

martyc5674

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Anyone is welcome to enter Catholic schools. Anyone. Not a single Catholic school has only Catholics. Irish Catholic shools have been shown be the more accepting accepting of varying socio economic backgrounds than ETs and other schools.
In a tiny number of schools there is overcrowding (less than 5%). In a small number of these schools people have priorised actual Catholics. Big deal.

If they are so welcoming then why are so many people baptising their kids to ensure a place?...
I’ll answer that for you as I’m one of those parents who did just that.
Because in their enrolment policy they will give priority to catholics.
And they won’t change this because it keeps their baptism numbers high which in turn inflates their following.

An_Toirpin

Wombatman wrote: »

__________________
The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan

The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow of the earth on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than in the Church.
This quotation is often found on the internet attributed to Magellan, but never with a source, and no English occurrence prior to its use by Robert Green Ingersoll in his essay “Individuality” (1873) has been located. Thus, it it most likely spurious.

Misquote of the moment: Magellan didn’t say it, but it’s still brilliant, “shadow on the Moon”

Why are anti-clerical folks so uneducated :pac: You guys wear me out!

martyc5674

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Ibsee you ignored the rest of my post as it was only convenient for you to use that little snippet.

I'm a protestant and find it absolutely adhorrent that you think it's ok to protest the leader of a faith, this particular pope is quite progressive.

I answered that question... if you read the rest of my posts you’ll see why I believe people feel they should protest. You’ll also see I have said several times it is nothing to do with the religion.

Seth Brundle

Banterbus28 wrote: »

this particular pope is quite progressive.

How has he been progressive?

Wombatman

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Misquote of the moment: Magellan didn’t say it, but it’s still brilliant, “shadow on the Moon”

Why are anti-clerical folks so uneducated :pac: You guys wear me out!

Wrong, but that's what happens when you can't think for yourself and have to slavishly follow a doctrine.

The formulation derives from a lecture of 1873 by the American agnostic Robert Ingersoll: ‘I believe it was Magellan who said, “The Church says the earth is flat; but I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more confidence even in a shadow than the Church”’, but the earliest version occurs in John William Draper’s History of the Intellectual Development of Europe (1864):

But though the church hath evermore from Holy Writ affirmed that the earth should be a wide-spread plain bordered by the waters, yet he [Magellan] comforted himself when he considered that in the eclipses of the moon the shadow cast of the earth is round.

Taytoland

Martin Luther warned you about the papists and only now are we seeing these responses.

Banterbus28

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

this particular pope is quite progressive.

How has he been progressive?

If you don't know that then you are more ignorant than the most hardline zealot.


CATHOLIC

The Progressive PopePope Francis is shaking things up in the Catholic Church.By Corine Gatti

wlablack/Shutterstock.com

When you think of a person who is a progressive leader, who comes to mind? Do you think of the Rev. Jessie Jackson, President Barack Obama or the Dalai Lama? You might want to add another influential figure to the mix, and that is Pope Francis. Pope Francis (birth name Jorge Mario Bergoglio) is considered one of the most progressive pontiffs to ever lead the Romans Catholic Church since taking the position in 2013. The 266th pope is considered a progressive Christian, a person implementing towards social reform and liberal ideas. He may be considered part of the Christian left.

What is the Christian left? The term is defined as being "focused on behaviors that Jesus focused on while He was here in body — things like hypocrisy, organized oppression, exorbitant greed, self-righteousness, selfishness, abuse of power,” the Huffington Post reported. Pope Francis is deeply concerned about social justice, climate change, protecting the environment and the gender gap. He is a protector of gay rights and is not a big fan of capitalism. The people’s pope also unleashed his fury on the weapons industry. In fact, he called them hypocrites if they considered themselves Christian. Pope Francis has his share of critics. The opposition claimed that he’s pumping liberalism into the church and needs to be more reserved. Apparently, the pontiff doesn't mind his detractors. He has continued to make the headlines and here are the reasons why.

He appointed liberal cardinals.

Breitbart broke the news that Pope Francis appointed 17 new cardinals and many of them have liberal and progressive views on Planned Parenthood and regarding immigration. He appointed Blaise Cupich, the archbishop of Chicago, who advised priests to not hold prayer vigils outside of abortion clinics as it causes more division than it causes unity. “The pastoral challenge is to get people to take a second look at the issue of abortion,” the diocese said in a statement. Archbishop William Tobin of Indianapolis was another selection, which caused concerns among conservatives. Tobin went head-to-head with Indiana Gov. and Vice President-elect Mike Pence on the banning Syrian refugees in Indiana.  

He speaks on climate change.

The Catholic Church does not have a history of electing progressive popes. When Pope Francis released a revolutionary new encyclical, which confronted climate change—the world was shocked. He said, “Our relationship with the environment can never be isolated from our relationship with others and with God.” Pope Francis stressed that climate change is problematic when he visited with scientists at the Vatican. He agreed that humans need to safeguard the future of the planet.  Elaborating further, he explained that we are instruments to be used by God “so that our planet might be what he desired when he created it." Pope Francis believes that politics should not be involved in protecting the earth, a belief that many progressives believe.

He is not totally against gay marriage.

Pope Francis seemed to be open minded on his views of gay marriage during a flight to Rome in 2013. He told reporters that “if a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?” This is unprecedented for any pope to say. However, there are mix messages regarding his stance on same-sex marriage in recent months. He said that he rejected the notion of same-sex marriage, but Christians should apologize for marginalizing and discriminating against gays. "I believe that the church must say it's sorry to this person that is gay that it has offended," said the pope. Regardless, this is a subject that has been taboo for the church and Pope Francis addressed it--possibly with resistance from older constituents. He made one thing clear, that discrimination against gays and lesbians is unacceptable.

He extended an olive branch to the divorced and the remarried.

In a document released in 2016, Pope Francis addressed elements of the Catholic doctrine and shared that life is more complicated than religious law when it came to dealing with the divorced and the remarried. Divorced and remarried Catholics are not eligible for Communion in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Yet, he opened the door a little more for those who felt shunned for divorcing and remarrying. Rather than judging them, the pope wants priests to become more accepting of all people." By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," he penned. No pope has ever mentioned this issue as well.

He is for women’s rights.

Pope Francis explained that all Christians should make sure that the gender pay gap ends. Yes, the pope was upset that this still exists! He actually said that “disparity is a pure scandal” in 2015. “Women should not earn less than men for the same work." Women need to be valued more in the workplace and in the home. He also offered that women should play a bigger role in the church. Currently, women cannot serve in the Catholic Church as priests. Another thing he brought up was it was time for us to stop blaming Eve for giving Adam the forbidden apple (stop blaming women for everything). Pope Francis also reiterated he wants to see more women working in the Vatican department. He created a commission to study the history of female deacons called the “Commission for the Study

I copy and pasted the article as I know if I posted the link you would have ignored it.

martyc5674

RobertKK wrote: »

The "I don't want to go, so I will go out of my way to deny others who do want to go" attitude is a disgrace.
The same people probably talk about wanting to live in a free and tolerable society, when they practice the opposite themselves. People can be hypocrites if they want but it is mean spirited and wrong to deny others attending an event they want to attend.
Also if all tickets are taken up and there is an obvious lack of a full attendance, how can this be deemed a success by the people who got tickets to deny others. People will just say some extremists went out of their way to cause this and how petty these people must be. It would just backfire and in the blame game the losers will be the people who took up tickets to deny others as they will be seen for what they are, which isn't anything positive.

Well I wouldn’t agree with that TBF, people blocking others but I can’t see that happening nor would I be part of it.
Will I protest?... no... if there’s a local march or something I’ll join that as long as it’s not anti catholic.

The extremists will in fact be buying the tickets, in attendance.

Banterbus28

Taytoland wrote: »

Martin Luther warned you about the papists and only now are we seeing these responses.

Martin Luther wasn't anti Catholic....

Martin Luther was just opposed to unchristian practices being practiced by the church.

Try again.

Strazdas

There was a columnist in the Herald the other evening who says he is a commited atheist and he has applied for tickets to see the Pope in Phoenix Park. He added that he felt those trying to disrupt the Mass are intolerant, small minded idiots.

Banterbus28

martyc5674 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Ibsee you ignored the rest of my post as it was only convenient for you to use that little snippet.

I'm a protestant and find it absolutely adhorrent that you think it's ok to protest the leader of a faith, this particular pope is quite progressive.

I answered that question... if you read the rest of my posts you’ll see why I believe people feel they should protest. You’ll also see I have said several times it is nothing to do with the religion.

It has everything to do with religion as you are against the practices of the Catholic Church and what the Catholic Church has done in the past. So yes it's about religion.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

martyc5674

Banterbus28 wrote: »

If you don't know that then you are more ignorant than the most hardline zealot.


CATHOLIC

The Progressive PopePope Francis is shaking things up in the Catholic Church.By Corine Gatti

wlablack/Shutterstock.com

When you think of a person who is a progressive leader, who comes to mind? Do you think of the Rev. Jessie Jackson, President Barack Obama or the Dalai Lama? You might want to add another influential figure to the mix, and that is Pope Francis. Pope Francis (birth name Jorge Mario Bergoglio) is considered one of the most progressive pontiffs to ever lead the Romans Catholic Church since taking the position in 2013. The 266th pope is considered a progressive Christian, a person implementing towards social reform and liberal ideas. He may be considered part of the Christian left.

What is the Christian left? The term is defined as being "focused on behaviors that Jesus focused on while He was here in body — things like hypocrisy, organized oppression, exorbitant greed, self-righteousness, selfishness, abuse of power,” the Huffington Post reported. Pope Francis is deeply concerned about social justice, climate change, protecting the environment and the gender gap. He is a protector of gay rights and is not a big fan of capitalism. The people’s pope also unleashed his fury on the weapons industry. In fact, he called them hypocrites if they considered themselves Christian. Pope Francis has his share of critics. The opposition claimed that he’s pumping liberalism into the church and needs to be more reserved. Apparently, the pontiff doesn't mind his detractors. He has continued to make the headlines and here are the reasons why.

He appointed liberal cardinals.

Breitbart broke the news that Pope Francis appointed 17 new cardinals and many of them have liberal and progressive views on Planned Parenthood and regarding immigration. He appointed Blaise Cupich, the archbishop of Chicago, who advised priests to not hold prayer vigils outside of abortion clinics as it causes more division than it causes unity. “The pastoral challenge is to get people to take a second look at the issue of abortion,” the diocese said in a statement. Archbishop William Tobin of Indianapolis was another selection, which caused concerns among conservatives. Tobin went head-to-head with Indiana Gov. and Vice President-elect Mike Pence on the banning Syrian refugees in Indiana.  

He speaks on climate change.

The Catholic Church does not have a history of electing progressive popes. When Pope Francis released a revolutionary new encyclical, which confronted climate change—the world was shocked. He said, “Our relationship with the environment can never be isolated from our relationship with others and with God.” Pope Francis stressed that climate change is problematic when he visited with scientists at the Vatican. He agreed that humans need to safeguard the future of the planet.  Elaborating further, he explained that we are instruments to be used by God “so that our planet might be what he desired when he created it." Pope Francis believes that politics should not be involved in protecting the earth, a belief that many progressives believe.

He is not totally against gay marriage.

Pope Francis seemed to be open minded on his views of gay marriage during a flight to Rome in 2013. He told reporters that “if a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?” This is unprecedented for any pope to say. However, there are mix messages regarding his stance on same-sex marriage in recent months. He said that he rejected the notion of same-sex marriage, but Christians should apologize for marginalizing and discriminating against gays. "I believe that the church must say it's sorry to this person that is gay that it has offended," said the pope. Regardless, this is a subject that has been taboo for the church and Pope Francis addressed it--possibly with resistance from older constituents. He made one thing clear, that discrimination against gays and lesbians is unacceptable.

He extended an olive branch to the divorced and the remarried.

In a document released in 2016, Pope Francis addressed elements of the Catholic doctrine and shared that life is more complicated than religious law when it came to dealing with the divorced and the remarried. Divorced and remarried Catholics are not eligible for Communion in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Yet, he opened the door a little more for those who felt shunned for divorcing and remarrying. Rather than judging them, the pope wants priests to become more accepting of all people." By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," he penned. No pope has ever mentioned this issue as well.

He is for women’s rights.

Pope Francis explained that all Christians should make sure that the gender pay gap ends. Yes, the pope was upset that this still exists! He actually said that “disparity is a pure scandal” in 2015. “Women should not earn less than men for the same work." Women need to be valued more in the workplace and in the home. He also offered that women should play a bigger role in the church. Currently, women cannot serve in the Catholic Church as priests. Another thing he brought up was it was time for us to stop blaming Eve for giving Adam the forbidden apple (stop blaming women for everything). Pope Francis also reiterated he wants to see more women working in the Vatican department. He created a commission to study the history of female deacons called the “Commission for the Study

I copy and pasted the article as I know if I posted the link you would have ignored it.

But you see... he’s not for gay rights... his group are mysoginistic, so he’s not promoting women’s rights. His group are anti anything progressive.
So it’s well and good quoting all that but it’s complete lies and not how his group actually carry out their work.

Leroy42

RobertKK wrote: »

The "I don't want to go, so I will go out of my way to deny others who do want to go" attitude is a disgrace.
The same people probably talk about wanting to live in a free and tolerable society, when they practice the opposite themselves. People can be hypocrites if they want but it is mean spirited and wrong to deny others attending an event they want to attend.
Also if all tickets are taken up and there is an obvious lack of a full attendance, how can this be deemed a success by the people who got tickets to deny others. People will just say some extremists went out of their way to cause this and how petty these people must be. It would just backfire and in the blame game the losers will be the people who took up tickets to deny others as they will be seen for what they are, which isn't anything positive.

The irony of a religious person complaining that other people are stopping them doing what they believe and want should not be lost on anybody!

These has been said many times on this thread but I'll repeat.

Nobody is protesting about peoples religion. Most people are happy to let believe whatever they want. And they are not protesting the people that believe in the religion. THe vast majority are good people looking to live their lives the best way they can, be helpful to others etc.

Its not about protesting about religion, its is about the organisation. It may e a surprise to many but Catholic is only one of a number of religions.

What they are protesting is the organisation. An organisation that is misognystic at its core. An organisation that actively covered up child abuse, the actively sought to have its own laws usurp the laws of countries.

THey are also not protesting the pope as a person himself, rather the organisation he represents.

martyc5674

Banterbus28 wrote: »

It has everything to do with religion as you are against the practices of the Catholic Church and what the Catholic Church has done in the past. So yes it's about religion.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Where did I say that?
I am not against them... I do not like what they have done no more than any group who have done wrong.
I do not believe they have any place in the schools. It only creates divisions.

Taytoland

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Martin Luther warned you about the papists and only now are we seeing these responses.

Martin Luther wasn't anti Catholic....

Martin Luther was just opposed to unchristian practices being practiced by the church.

Try again.

“Dear God, what an utterly shameless, blasphemous lying-mouth you are!”
From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 300 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41

Banterbus28

Taytoland wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Martin Luther warned you about the papists and only now are we seeing these responses.

Martin Luther wasn't anti Catholic....

Martin Luther was just opposed to unchristian practices being practiced by the church.

Try again.

“Dear God, what an utterly shameless, blasphemous lying-mouth you are!”
From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 300 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41

Again against practices of the clergy not the church itself.

Try again.

Lutheran God is the same bloke as Catholic God