Are the Irish people happy with way things are in this country?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Of course. Setting up your own account is far too difficult for an international student such as yourself. That seems far more likely than some sock puppet who’s done a bad job of tracking their own BS.

He’s possibly a troll. That said foreigners do go home for health reasons. I’ve seen that.

EdgeCase

Voluntary hospitals (public services provided, but not publicly owned)

They include many of the acute hospitals in Ireland. All it means is most of their funding comes from the state, but they're not publicly owned facilities.

This list is not exhaustive, but here's most of them:

Cappagh Orthopaedic Hospital
Central Remedial Clinic
Children’s University Hospital
Coombe Women & Infants University Hospital
Dublin Dental School & Hospital
Incorporated Orthopaedic Hospital (Clontarf)
Leopardstown Park Hospital
Mater Misericordiae University Hospital
Mercy University Hospital, Cork
National Maternity Hospital, Holles St.
National Rehabilitation Hospital (Dun Laoghaire)
Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital
Our Lady’s Hospice
Rotunda Hospital
Royal Hospital, Donnybrook
Royal Victoria Eye and Ear Hospital
South Infirmary/Victoria University Hospital Ltd., Cork
St. Francis Hospice, Raheny
St. James’s Hospital
St. John’s Hospital
St. Luke’s Radiation Oncology Centre
St. Mary’s Baldoyle
St. Michael’s Hospital
St. Patrick’s Hospital/Marymount Hospice
St. Vincent’s Psychiatric Hospital
St. Vincent’s University Hospital (Elm Park)
Tallaght Hospital

Franz Von Peppercorn

EdgeCase wrote: »

Voluntary hospitals (public services provided, but not publicly owned)

Cappagh Orthopaedic Hospital
Central Remedial Clinic
Children’s University Hospital
Coombe Women & Infants University Hospital
Dublin Dental School & Hospital
Incorporated Orthopaedic Hospital (Clontarf)
Leopardstown Park Hospital
Mater Misericordiae University Hospital
Mercy University Hospital, Cork
National Maternity Hospital, Holles St.
National Rehabilitation Hospital (Dun Laoghaire)
Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital
Our Lady’s Hospice
Rotunda Hospital
Royal Hospital, Donnybrook
Royal Victoria Eye and Ear Hospital
South Infirmary/Victoria University Hospital Ltd., Cork
St. Francis Hospice, Raheny
St. James’s Hospital
St. John’s Hospital
St. Luke’s Radiation Oncology Centre
St. Mary’s Baldoyle
St. Michael’s Hospital
St. Patrick’s Hospital/Marymount Hospice
St. Vincent’s Psychiatric Hospital
St. Vincent’s University Hospital (Elm Park)
Tallaght Hospital

Not all NHS hospitals are publicly owned. Maybe none. They are owned by a trust.

There are very few private only hospitals in the State.

EdgeCase

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Not all NHS hospitals are publicly owned. There are very few private only hospitals in the State.

I didn't say 'private only'.

If you're entering a hospital as a private patient, you're being treated privately and billed for the services. There was more crossover than there is now.

You're being treated in a facility, whether it's public or private depends on how you're paying.

It would be interesting to see whether Irish insurers or the state gets more 'bang for buck' in the way they pay for treatments though.

All I know is that what we are doing at the moment is ridiculous and causing serious damage. The OP is right, aspects of our health system are a complete and utter disgrace and many of the issues that are happening, simply shouldn't be. It's not badly funded and we aren't in a crisis - it's been a multi-decade quagmire of a mess that's never been resolved.

My view of it is that the fact that we can't resolve is pointing to questions about the state's competence.

Franz Von Peppercorn

EdgeCase wrote: »

I didn't say 'private only'.

If you're entering a hospital as a private patient, you're being treated privately and billed for the services. There was more crossover than there is now.

You're being treated in a facility, whether it's public or private depends on how you're paying.

There’s only so much goal post shifting that’s going to work. You said that the privately insured don’t mix with the publicly insured. They do, in nearly all hospitals. How it’s billed is not relevant.

Most importantly A&E is shared. There are private patients on trolleys.

EdgeCase

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s only so much goal post shifting that’s going to work. You said that the privately insured don’t mix with the publicly insured. They do, in nearly all hospitals. How it’s billed is not relevant.

Most importantly A&E is shared.

It's shared to a point. If you're insured, they can find you a private bed and remove you from the queue. If you're uninsured and a public patient, you wait and wait and wait.

For example, you arrive into A&E with a non-critical cardiac problem, that needs hospitalisation. If you're insured, you will be off to the Mater Private or similar. If you're not, you'll wait.

It's usually the non-life threatening, but often very unpleasant stuff that can result in extremely long waits.

Certain services are mixed, others aren't.

How it's billed most certainly is relevant. Particularly things like access to diagnostic services is effectively seriously rationed in the public system and subject to huge delays and is often available on demand in the private system, sometimes in the same building.

What "goal post shifting?" My only point is that the Irish "system" is genuinely an unbelievable mess and that what's going on should not be happening and despite decades of reforms and talk, it's never been resolved.

I can't remember any stage in my life when the Irish health system wasn't in crisis and that includes right through the boom times before 2008.

I've experienced both sides of the system myself. I'm insured, some of my relatives aren't.

We recently had a situation with a relative of mine where one of her eyes was treated on the NTPF for cataracts that were so bad that she could barely see (cataracts were caused by chemotherapy). The other eye was on a different list and we have opted to pay for it cash and do a family 'whip around' rather than let her suffer on for an unknown length of time.

That shouldn't be happening in a developed country - it's an indefensible mess and I don't see any real solutions being brought forward - just ministers doing ANYTHING except get directly involved in reforming the system.

I also know two people who've opted to get a plane back to France (and in one case quit a job without notice) because of A&E experiences. The OP is definitely correct in the sense that this is unacceptable, inexplicable in a developed country and is and will continue to have an impact on our economy.

I also know Irish people who've put up with severe abdominal pains for the weekend rather than go to A&E on the basis that they expected to to be hellish.

I'd vote for someone who was proposing a viable solution to it - but I can't see any being proposed.

Bits of the Irish "system" work. Most of it doesn't.

vladmydad

I know this is a much vilified option but I think greater privatization is a good option. It would drive out a huge portion of inefficiency’s. Also health care savings accounts, where the government could match every euro you deposit. If people have a fear of privatization, a limit could be placed on profits and salaries. Remember Air lingus and British Airways were terribly inefficient when in public ownership but once privatized became highly profitable with better service and range of destinations but above all much cheaper fares.

EdgeCase

Effectively at the moment we've got the worst of both worlds - you've private institutions operating as unaccountable, state funded monopolies within the health system.

What would worry me about privatisation in an area like this is that you'll end up with some areas of health that will be, by their nature, a monopoly in a particular region or in certain specialities. So you could end up with a bit of a mess of dysfunctional markets that were supposed to somehow fix everything.


The systems that rate best in the EU are the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Finland, Denmark and Australia. Surely one of those must be a model that's suitable for Ireland.

The UK ranks 15th (behind Portugal) and Ireland ranks 21st, ahead of Italy and behind Spain.


https://healthpowerhouse.com/files/EHCI_2016/EHCI_2016_report.pdf

realdanbreen

Sceptic Orwellian wrote: »

Citizens in my country of birth have little to complain about because the Government takes very good care of all its citizens, in terms of education, healthcare, and infrastructure. Nevertheless, there are many flaws in all three areas and more and the issues that plague Ireland also plague my nation.

And I can assure you, no one will be "locked up" simply because of "being critical of the Government". My tertiary education and my brother's education here in the Republic is entirely being funded by my Government, just like the millions of other citizens both in the country and all over the world. My nation is by no means "rich", like I said, it is a third world country, and "poor" compared to Ireland. So why Ireland does not provide the healthcare that its citizens deserve is a paradox to me.

What is your country of birth?

mach1982

No I am not happy with Irish society. I love my country but hate what our society has become. We had the Celtic tiger , people got greedy and lazy think they are entitled to everything now , we also lost our sense of community and morality. In regards to politics, it always been you scratch my back I'll scratch your back . Once we was about "we" now it about "me".

piplip87

Sceptic Orwellian wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I am international student and I have been in Ireland for the last four years. Throughout these four years I have seen both good and bad things, like all places of course. But the "bad" things I saw in this country I have not seen anywhere else, certainly not in first world countries. I come from a third world country and some of the things I saw happening in this country would never happen back home.

Let me start with what makes my blood boil the most. Your public healthcare system. Utter chaos. Madness. Warzones. Looted from top to bottom with impunity. People on trolleys. People in pain on waiting lists. People leaving their jobs and families behind and flying to the Continent and the States to get their health back. It is utter shambles and unacceptable for a first world country. I thought my country (which again, is third world) and several other countries I've been to had the worst healthcare systems, but after seeing what I saw here, I have instructed my friends to fly me back home if I ever needed to be admitted non-urgently to one of these public hospitals. You will never see scenes like this back home, never. And if you did, the people will be on the streets the next day with the health minister resigning. Luckily, private health insurance is mandatory here for non-EU people like me.

It is very unfortunate because this country has excellent colleges that trains highly skilled professionals. But what good is it when an Irish citizen cannot access the care he or she needs? What good is it when these Irish citizens leave the country of their birth because of the way things are here?

Moving on to political corruption and nepotism, both of which I have noticed are rampant here. I was speaking to a very nice elderly Irish woman the other day who just had a knee replacement and she told me that she was on the waiting list for two years. Two years in constant pain. When she could not take it anymore, she called her local TD and explained her situation to him, two days later she gets a phone call from the hospital asking her to come in for her surgery the next week. If a politician has a say on whether or not a person is in pain, then this country is doomed. And again, this would never happen to a citizen back home. This lady was an elderly Irish citizen. She was born here and lived here all her life. She deserves the best treatment from her public healthcare system.

Why are the Irish people silent about what is going on in this country? Is this what the men and women of 1916 fought and died for? Why don't they get out on the streets just like they did against the water charges? If health is not important then what is?

And to those who say: "at least things are better than (insert third world country here). No it is not, it is absolutely not. I love Ireland, I love the Irish people, but this is not a country that I would want to settle in.

The Health crisis is the perfect example of parish pump politics. Every large town has some sort of a hospital. These smaller hospitals do not specialise in anything. They are instead used as a kind of a sleep over service until a bed becomes available at a hospital that specialises in whatever is wrong.

The Government had tried to close some of these in recent years, yet the protests and scaremongering not to mention the Unions want to protect the hospital because it provides jobs but not the care that is required.

For a population of this size, 10 Regional hospital's spread throughout the country, not includong the city hospitals with the capacity and expertise to provide specialist care for 90% if ailments, should be enough.

The role of GPs and primary care centres should be upped too. Move x rays and other diagnostics to selected primary care centres, have the primary care centre as the first port of call for people who need care but do not need to be admitted. These centres can also house day wards, non emergency treatment, infusions etc. you could have 3 or 4 of these per county to reduce strain on the hospitals.

The health service also needs less clerical staff, middle management, and more nurses.

badtoro

Civil servants & politicians are the biggest problem in Ireland, as other problems stem from them.

Know for a fact that politicians are afraid of civil servants as guess who writes legislation? I mean actually writes it. Politicians won't challenge civil servants because they can be easily embarrassed in this way.

I laugh, not really in a good way, at the constant pay issue. The real issue in Ireland is a lack of transparency and accountability. Who will change that when politicians won't.

Everlong1

EdgeCase wrote: »

I would advocate that there's a national crisis healthcare committee set up in the Dail on a cross party basis and that it be given powers to drive reform, investigate, hold organisations to account and so on until the mess is cleaned up.

Theoretically this has already happened. It's called Slaintecare. Google will tell you more.

Everlong1

badtoro wrote: »

Civil servants & politicians are the biggest problem in Ireland, as other problems stem from them.

Know for a fact that politicians are afraid of civil servants as guess who writes legislation? I mean actually writes it. Politicians won't challenge civil servants because they can be easily embarrassed in this way.

I laugh, not really in a good way, at the constant pay issue. The real issue in Ireland is a lack of transparency and accountability. Who will change that when politicians won't.

What a ridiculous statement. Do politicians elect themselves? Do you even have the slightest idea of what Civil Servants actually do?

James Brown

mach1982 wrote: »

No I am not happy with Irish society. I love my country but hate what our society has become. We had the Celtic tiger , people got greedy and lazy think they are entitled to everything now , we also lost our sense of community and morality. In regards to politics, it always been you scratch my back I'll scratch your back . Once we was about "we" now it about "me".

Or, the system was so flawed it allowed financial institutions, politicians and developers play with borrowed money to chase massive profits. The people rightly wanted in too.
The difference was, banks, bond holders, developers (through slight of hand) have all been bailed out by the tax payer, meanwhile government gerry rigs the system so it's working to keep the same players in profit, all the while the tax payer feels the brunt and the sickening PR is the average person 'went mad' 'partied'. Anyone who over stretched themselves and are in dire straits, well that's tough. So the average working tax payer who may have massive debt, might need welfare to assist with rent, can be forgiven, IMO, for looking at the 'economy' doing great and ask 'what about me?'.
The biggest thing the average working tax payer is guilty of is believing the government and media hype and thinking the same rules applied to everyone.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

dr.fuzzenstein

EdgeCase wrote: »

Well, the main proposal for a single-tier Irish healthcare system has been a universal cover using mandatory insurance model that would be funded using public and private payment to cover the bills.

Quite a few European public systems work on the basis of universal insurance, rather than the NHS model of direct state provision, and it might work, but I would just hope it didn't turn into a worst of both worlds.

All I know is the current system really can't go on.

I think that fiddling round with the system will not achieve much.
The massive dinosaur in the room is admin vs front line staff.
To my mind it's a hangover from the 80's, when working in the public service was a posh way of being on the dole, if you had a friend or relative who could pull you aboard.
This has lead to what feels like 2000 front line staff, who do actual, real work are being "managed" by about 20000 admin staff, most of which are redundant, administrative dead ends, incompetent, useless and absolutely cannot be fired.
Look at any kind of protest from the health service. Admin keeps very, very quiet and in the background. The frontline staff make all the noise.
And if course the unions will have already signaled that any attempt to get rid of them will be met with a giant sh*tstorm.
That is why health is a political poisoned chalice. You send a minister there to fail.
Because the issue causing 90% of the misery is a holy cow, untouchable, no go, non-negotiable, not gonna happen.
A minister that wants to change that would have to commit career suicide, but it would also throw their party down the abyss as well.
And that will never happen.
Unless a small party might sacrifice it's own future and finally take on the unions.
Maggie Thatcher vs Fleet Street or the miners would be a walk in the park in comparison.
I'm sure there would be years of union warfare.
So this will never change. Health will always be a black hole that swallows money to pay for thousands of useless bums on seats that do little to nothing.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Sceptic Orwellian wrote: »

I have noticed that most Irish people tend to be blindly patriotic, not seeing the faults in their country.

Where the hell did you find those Irish people? Bitching about Ireland is a national pastime.....

EdgeCase

Is that actually the case though?

I've often seen lack of administration staff in public hospitals here and nurses doing jobs they shouldn't be involved in at all.

Most of what I'm seeing is poor and unthinking administration, rather than management.

Also many of these people are publicly funded but private sector employees who are working for "the voluntary sector" which is the worst mix of public and private upon could get in some ways - an unavoidable, unaccountable and mostly state funded private company.

What shocked me was the way things are organised. For example, calling in everyone to a particular clinic and having no individual appointments and having people wait maybe for 6 or 7 hours seemed normal practice.

They send out appointments in a totally arbitrary way by post without discussion or even checking if they were received. Giving people a call and trying to get appropriate times and dates (where possible) and sending reminder texts or calls would be sensible and would avoid tons of missed appointments.

I mean my dentist can manage to call me ahead of an appointment to remind me. So for a service that's far more high cost and complex, you would consider that to be fairly standard practice.

There are also tons of thing that could be done by GPs and even hospital doctors doing community clinics. Like is it really necessary to have people sitting in acute hospital for simple blood tests or even chemotherapy infusions? All of these things can be done remotely.

With A&E we need "blood and bandages" centres that you can go to for minor injuries, breaks and non urgent care.

There's no reason for all of these to be ending up in busy acute hospitals. Also a huge % of the cases I saw waiting one Friday night were entirely attributable to binge drinking. A lot of that stuff shouldn't be getting to hospital at all as it's just someone needing to be cleaned up after a brawl.

Tackling the insane drinking culture here would also save a fortune but it's a sacred cow that can't even be discussed.

James Brown

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Look, that's not the every day story for many. Have you seen the levels of personal debt, number of mortgages in default, homeless record breaking, housing market, hospital trolleys, education and on and on?
Any way, I was responding to the premise that the financial crash was caused by equal amounts of across the board greed and lack of morals. It was top heavy.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

badtoro

Everlong1 wrote: »

What a ridiculous statement. Do politicians elect themselves? Do you even have the slightest idea of what Civil Servants actually do?

You may tell that to the politicians who told me so.

Yes, I do, having had many meetings with them and ministers.

James Brown

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again, the post was a response to the causes of the most recent crash.
Your simplistic concept of how to solve 'X' relates to a different dimension in the space time continuum than the one Ireland dwells in. All the best.

oscarBravo

piplip87 wrote: »

The role of GPs and primary care centres should be upped too. Move x rays and other diagnostics to selected primary care centres, have the primary care centre as the first port of call for people who need care but do not need to be admitted. These centres can also house day wards, non emergency treatment, infusions etc. you could have 3 or 4 of these per county to reduce strain on the hospitals.

I heard Mary Wilson interview a consultant a couple of months back, and he made a number of salient points about how to free up the backlog in A&E.

Mary asked him if the primary care centres would help relieve the pressure, and he said they wouldn't really: many older people with long-term illnesses would present at A&E because they need oxygen and an IV, and those can't be provided at a primary care centre.

That blew my mind. What exactly is the point of a primary care centre if it can't provide even that most basic level of care?

Geuze

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We have one of the highest marginal rates of taxation in the world. And it comes in at the lowest level.

While this is true, overall income taxes are low to very low for many people.

Geuze

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Don't want more stuff just lower taxes please.

More than happy to pay for my own stuff if the government stop thieving 40% of my wage

Nobody in Ireland pays 40% income tax.

On 50k income, my parents pay <10%.

Geuze

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Note that although the UNR has fallen to 6%, the employment rate is still low.


https://twitter.com/danobrien20/status/983300212776202240

MayoSalmon

Geuze wrote:

Nobody in Ireland pays 40% income tax.

Geuze wrote:

On 50k income, my parents pay

Strange that I must get onto revenue about my missing income. Thanks

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

realdanbreen

realdanbreen wrote: »

What is your country of birth?

?

brabantje

Geuze wrote: »

Nobody in Ireland pays 40% income tax.

On 50k income, my parents pay <10%.

That's income tax. There's also USC and PRSI (possibly already considered in your 10%), plus the 23% VAT that you pay on almost every purchase (including your utilities). Then there's duty if you smoke, drink, or put petrol in your car. There's the pension levy if that applies to you. Motor Tax. Capital Gains Tax if you make a profit on something. DIRT if you decide to be prudent and save.

40% is about right in the grand scheme of things.

[Edited in light of draoichtanois' corrections.]

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

brabantje

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wasn't aware the pension levy was gone, as it never applied to me. And yes 21% was a typo. Not that it makes a massive difference to the point I was making, but I'll edit it appropriately.

Nitrogan

Comparable to a third world country apparently.

If true our opposition parties are taking the piss, not bringing this up before now.

blanch152

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

For public servants who have 15% compulsorily taken from their income in the form of pension levy and pension contributions, you hit the 40% deductions at a much lower level.

Inquitus

blanch152 wrote: »

For public servants who have 15% compulsorily taken from their income in the form of pension levy and pension contributions, you hit the 40% deductions at a much lower level.

You don't deserve a great pension unless you pay for it, the problem here is?

blackwhite

blanch152 wrote: »

For public servants who have 15% compulsorily taken from their income in the form of pension levy and pension contributions, you hit the 40% deductions at a much lower level.

Pension contributions aren’t a tax. They are what everybody imwoth a pension has to do. The only difference is that public servants contribute a minuscule amount compared to what any other worker would have to pay for a comparable pension

Geuze

blackwhite wrote: »

Pension contributions aren’t a tax. They are what everybody imwoth a pension has to do. The only difference is that public servants contribute a minuscule amount compared to what any other worker would have to pay for a comparable pension

Is up to 17% of wages a "minuscule amount"?

blackwhite

Geuze wrote: »

Is up to 17% of wages a "minuscule amount"?

In comparison to the pension that it’s contributing towards, yes - it certainly is compared to what anybody else would have to pay for such a gold plated pension.


Either way - wasn’t the max pension deduction 10.5% for salaries over €60k, with the first €28,750 exempt from any deductions? i.e. a hell of a lot less that the 17% you want to try and imply the pension contribution is :rolleyes:

fxotoole

piplip87 wrote: »

The Health crisis is the perfect example of parish pump politics. Every large town has some sort of a hospital. These smaller hospitals do not specialise in anything. They are instead used as a kind of a sleep over service until a bed becomes available at a hospital that specialises in whatever is wrong.

The Government had tried to close some of these in recent years, yet the protests and scaremongering not to mention the Unions want to protect the hospital because it provides jobs but not the care that is required.

For a population of this size, 10 Regional hospital's spread throughout the country, not includong the city hospitals with the capacity and expertise to provide specialist care for 90% if ailments, should be enough.

The role of GPs and primary care centres should be upped too. Move x rays and other diagnostics to selected primary care centres, have the primary care centre as the first port of call for people who need care but do not need to be admitted. These centres can also house day wards, non emergency treatment, infusions etc. you could have 3 or 4 of these per county to reduce strain on the hospitals.

The health service also needs less clerical staff, middle management, and more nurses.

10000% agree. We need more primary care centres built, and they need to be "half way houses" for people who don't need to be admitted overnight, but do need things like xrays, MRI's. Physio, etc

Geuze

blackwhite wrote: »

In comparison to the pension that it’s contributing towards, yes - it certainly is compared to what anybody else would have to pay for such a gold plated pension.


Either way - wasn’t the max pension deduction 10.5% for salaries over €60k, with the first €28,750 exempt from any deductions? i.e. a hell of a lot less that the 17% you want to try and imply the pension contribution is :rolleyes:

The PRD is max 10.5% yes, plus the regular pension conts of 6.5%.

blanch152

blackwhite wrote: »

In comparison to the pension that it’s contributing towards, yes - it certainly is compared to what anybody else would have to pay for such a gold plated pension.


Either way - wasn’t the max pension deduction 10.5% for salaries over €60k, with the first €28,750 exempt from any deductions? i.e. a hell of a lot less that the 17% you want to try and imply the pension contribution is :rolleyes:

You are forgetting about the standard 6.5% which is also deducted from all salary payments.

beeno67

Geuze wrote: »

Is up to 17% of wages a "minuscule amount"?

Below is an estimate from Irish life of how much you need to contribute into your salary to get a pension of half your salary. As you can see Public Sector workers pay far less into their pensions than private sector. These calculations do not take into account the extra you will have to pay into pension to get a tax free lump sum of 1.5 times final salary nor does it take into account the extra you would need to put in to allow for pay rises and promotions.It does however include both employer and employee contributions combined though.

Figure on left is age you start pension.

Age % Contribution
25 27%
30 31%
35 37%
40 45%
45 58%
50 77%
55 115%
60 231%

blanch152

beeno67 wrote: »

Below is an estimate from Irish life of how much you need to contribute into your salary to get a pension of half your salary. As you can see Public Sector workers pay far less into their pensions than private sector. These calculations do not take into account the extra you will have to pay into pension to get a tax free lump sum of 1.5 times final salary nor does it take into account the extra you would need to put in to allow for pay rises and promotions.It does however include both employer and employee contributions combined though.

Figure on left is age you start pension.

Age % Contribution
25 27%
30 31%
35 37%
40 45%
45 58%
50 77%
55 115%
60 231%

(1) The figures post 25 are irrelevant to the public sector, because if you can't work for 40 years, you don't get a full pension. So while a private sector person starting at age 30, would have to pay 31% to get a pension at half salary, a public servant would only get 35 years to 65. The relevant rate is therefore 27%.

(2) There are very few public servants left who can get a pension at half salary. All public servants since 1995 have to pay PRSI to get the State Contributory Pension (which the person in your private sector example will get). Their half-salary pension is then reduced by the amount of the State Contributory Pension. For anyone on a salary of €25k or less, that means no public service pension, despite having paid in for years.

(3) This means that the actual pension is half your salary less State Contributory Pension.
https://www.businessworld.ie/financial-news/Average-public-sector-wages-are-47-400-in-Ireland--567926.html
Assume Average public sector salary of €47 means an average retirement salary of €60k, which gives a public sector pension of €30k - €12.5k approx, €17.5k. So, to get a pension of €17.5k, (around 30% of salary) the public servant on €60k must have been paying 6.5% all the way though, plus 10% more on about €30k of their salary, giving a total average pension contribution of 11.5%.

(4) In the private sector, the best employers pay twice the employee contribution, but decent employers at least match the contribution. This would give a total contribution from employer and employee of 23%, for a pension of 30% of final salary not far off your calculation of 27% for a pension of 50% of final salary.

(5) As you say, this excludes the lump sum, and it also excludes the pay rises and promotions. However, there are two further considerations. Firstly, it is a pay-as-you-go scheme so the pay rises are accounted for by the fact that the contributions funding the scheme are coming from active employees paying in at the higher rate. Secondly, the new scheme, introduced in 2013 is an average salary scheme, with far less benefits. In fact the Public Service Pay Commission concluded that "on average the value provided to employees by the standard accrual Single Public Service Pension Scheme is now on a par with employers’ contributions to current private sector de&#31;ned contribution pensions. "

(6) In relation to the legacy scheme the Commission found that " In the
Commission’s opinion and having regard to all of the information provided to us, the value for the differential could reasonably be &#31;xed within a range
between 12%-18% (i.e. up to 6% above 2007 levels) for the pre-2013 standard accrual cohort of public servants." What was interesting about this was that the 2007 Benchmarking Report adjusted salaries for the effect of the better pension, and since then, the introduction of the pension levy or additional pension contribution, as it is now known, could account for the extra 6%.

To sum up, public servants have better pensions than the private sector, but there is a strong argument that they pay for it through contributions both standard and additional, but also through lower salaries than for comparable jobs in the private sector.

I certainly found when I left the public sector that I could command a much higher salary with much less deductions than I had been used to. Of course, it helps that I have banked a decent (though not huge) pension I can collect in a few short years at 60.

Geuze

beeno67 wrote: »

Below is an estimate from Irish life of how much you need to contribute into your salary to get a pension of half your salary. As you can see Public Sector workers pay far less into their pensions than private sector. These calculations do not take into account the extra you will have to pay into pension to get a tax free lump sum of 1.5 times final salary nor does it take into account the extra you would need to put in to allow for pay rises and promotions.It does however include both employer and employee contributions combined though.

Figure on left is age you start pension.

Age % Contribution
25 27%
30 31%
35 37%
40 45%
45 58%
50 77%
55 115%
60 231%

Note that this refers to total contributions.

The PS pays an employee contribution. Obviously this would not cover the full cost, as the employer would be covering some/much of the cost.

In the same way as an AIB/Siemens/Vodafone employee does not cover the full cost of their work pension.

Geuze

beeno67 wrote: »

Below is an estimate from Irish life of how much you need to contribute into your salary to get a pension of half your salary. As you can see Public Sector workers pay far less into their pensions than private sector. These calculations do not take into account the extra you will have to pay into pension to get a tax free lump sum of 1.5 times final salary nor does it take into account the extra you would need to put in to allow for pay rises and promotions.It does however include both employer and employee contributions combined though.

Figure on left is age you start pension.

Age % Contribution
25 27%
30 31%
35 37%
40 45%
45 58%
50 77%
55 115%
60 231%

Also note that the PRSI pension is included in the half salary pension.

So forty years as a teacher, say a 32k pension, of that 20k is a work pension.

Geuze

blanch152 wrote: »

To sum up, public servants have better pensions than the private sector, but there is a strong argument that they pay for it through contributions both standard and additional, but also through lower salaries than for comparable jobs in the private sector.

I certainly found when I left the public sector that I could command a much higher salary with much less deductions than I had been used to. Of course, it helps that I have banked a decent (though not huge) pension I can collect in a few short years at 60.

YES.

Towards the higher end of the earnings distribution, 50k+, PS staff earn less than private sector counterparts.

Examples would be accountants and engineers.