Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

Silentcorner

blanch152 wrote: »

The sober independent witness contradicted both their drunken version and her drunken version.

That really sums up a lot of rape cases in Ireland - a lot of drink involved making for unreliable witnesses.

Dara Florense did not contradict the young ladys version, actually she gave the same account the young lady did.

Squatter

Silentcorner wrote: »

Dara Florense did not contradict the young ladys version, actually she gave the same account the young lady did.

Apart from one very significant difference!

AudreyHepburn

mfceiling wrote: »

What actually happened after the threesome is interesting.

Did PJ and Olding know she was upset? Did either of them leave the bedroom after it? Did the girl start crying outside the house or inside?

Easy to call them pricks etc but were they fully aware she was so upset after the event?

My understanding was that they didn’t know until the following day when the one who dropped her home (McEllroy?) told them.

This was after they had started bragging about what at happened I believe.

Outlaw Pete

Squatter wrote: »

Well, Harrison managed to catch her before she got there - and he's not a professional rugby player.

Harrison wasn't naked.. nor even upstairs.

Plus, they all had a lot to drink. She wasn't the only one that was drunk.

AudreyHepburn

Silentcorner wrote: »

If you can make head nor tail out of what the lads claim happened and what they knew I'd love to hear it...because their version of events are all over the place!

And hers wasn’t?

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the various accounts tbh.

Silentcorner

Squatter wrote: »

Apart from one very significant difference!

Of course, it was Dara's perception of what she was seeing was different, but they both stated that they did not see each others face!

AudreyHepburn

Silentcorner wrote: »

Dara Florense did not contradict the young ladys version, actually she gave the same account the young lady did.

The young lady said she was raped. Dara Florence said she heard and saw consensual sex.

So not exactly the same account.

Silentcorner

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And hers wasn’t?

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the various accounts tbh.

What, where did I say that...

I was responding to someone who asked about whether the lads were aware she left the house upset.

Silentcorner

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The young lady said she was raped. Dara Florence said she heard and saw consensual sex.

So not exactly the same account.

Different perceptions of the same scene...

They both said that when the door opened Paddy was having sex with the young lady from behind, and the young lady was performing oral sex on Stuart, they also both said that when Dara opened the door the young lady turned her head.

Dara thought everything was hunky dorey, the young lady claimed she had froze at that stage.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Different perceptions of the same scene...

They both said that when the door opened Paddy was having sex with the young lady from behind, and the young lady was performing oral sex on Stuart, they also both said that when Dara opened the door the young lady turned her head.

Dara thought everything was hunky dorey, the young lady claimed she had froze at that stage.

But, Paddy said he didn’t have sex with her.

Roger Hassenforder

koheim wrote: »

What exactly did Paddy Jackson say in the Whatsapp messages? Other than being a member of the groups, I cant find anything he wrote...but this seems to be the reason he was let go.

"There was a lot of spit".

(There was another message not retrieved by PSNI sent an hour and a bit before the "lewd" conversation).

NAGDEFI

Dara Florence.

She said under oath she saw Paddy Jackson and the accused having consensual sex.

For me there are a few possibilities.

1. Dara Florence is a truthfull witness who described accurately what she saw.

2. Dara gave a 50 second look and wasn't sure what she saw, but could in no way be definite that she saw rape. Therefore, in good conscience, decided it was best to say it was consensual.

3. Dara picked up on some distress and maybe felt the actions were closer to rape than consensual. Olding, and Jackson in particular, are big names in Ulster. Dara possibly had mutual friends and acquaintances of the lads. Did she want to be responsible for pulling out the rug from underneath these men and Ulster rugby?? A major responsibility.

I'm not accusing Dara Florence of perjury just outlining various scenarios.

At any rate i believe she reported as she saw and accept the court's verdict. It's just we can never be 100% sure of anything said by any human being, in any case.

NAGDEFI

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Dara Florence.

She said under oath she saw Paddy Jackson and the accused having consensual sex.

For me there are a few possibilities.

1. Dara Florence is a truthfull witness who described accurately what she saw.

2. Dara gave a 50 second look and wasn't sure what she saw, but could in no way be definite that she saw rape. Therefore, in good conscience, decided it was best to say it was consensual.

3. Dara picked up on some distress and maybe felt the actions were closer to rape than consensual. Olding, and Jackson in particular, are big names in Ulster. Dara possibly had mutual friends and acquaintances of the lads. Did she want to be responsible for pulling out the rug from underneath these men and Ulster rugby?? A major responsibility.

I'm not accusing Dara Florence of perjury just outlining various scenarios.

At any rate i believe she reported as she saw and accept the court's verdict. It's just we can never be 100% sure of anything said by any human being, in any case.

re dara

do u #believeher

NAGDEFI

Deleted User wrote: »

re dara

do u #believeher

Ha!

80% yes. 20% no. For the reasons i outlined. Who really knows anything. Just because she was sober doesn't mean she took in the events in the bedroom with 100% accuracy.

Can someone being raped be so in shock that they look completely willing??

I don't know enough about such situations but look overall i have more reason to believe Dara Florence than not. Also a jury who were privy to a lot more information than me, saw these people on the stand, found the 4 innocent.

# i believe the court verdict. It's the only reasonable thing i have to go on.

Captain Obvious

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The young lady said she was raped. Dara Florence said she heard and saw consensual sex.

So not exactly the same account.

Can you elaborate on how consensual sex and non consensual sex look different?

NAGDEFI

What i'm really sick of is this big male\female divide evident here and everywhere else re. this case.

All men and women had a mother and father. Some have brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, nieces and nephews etc.

This division is absolutely pointless. We should all be looking at rape and the various aspects around it from the one hymn sheet of respect, equality, education of young people.

We're not playing football in the school playground where teams are picked and the best, biggest strong boys get picked first.

Personally as regards my friends, i've an equal number of female and male ones and would say personal things more easily to my female ones.

The sexes compliment one another not all this ultra female and ultra male sh*te. I'm a man by the way.

Captain Obvious

NAGDEFI wrote: »

What i'm really sick of is this big male\female divide evident here and everywhere else re. this case.

All men and women had a mother and father. Some have brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, nieces and nephews etc.

This division is absolutely pointless. We should all be looking at rape and the various aspects around it from the one hymn sheet of respect, equality, education of young people.

We're not playing football in the school playground where teams are picked and the best, biggest strong boys get picked first.

Personally as regards my friends, i've an equal number of female and male ones and would say personal things more easily to my female ones.

The sexes compliment one another not all this ultra female and ultra male sh*te. I'm a man by the way.

Unfortunately the law works differently for males and females so divisive cases are inevitable.

NAGDEFI

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Unfortunately the law works differently for males and females so divisive cases are inevitable.

I understand. Just the general commentary is becoming polarised between the genders and for the future this isn't good.

goz83

koheim wrote: »

What exactly did Paddy Jackson say in the Whatsapp messages? Other than being a member of the groups, I cant find anything he wrote...but this seems to be the reason he was let go.

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I understand. Just the general commentary is becoming polarised between the genders and for the future this isn't good.

When you have groups of women with placards condemning all men, it’s not surprising that we were eventually going to say something to defend our gender. Sure even some of the women are sick of the attitude of the man haters.

Tell me how

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Can you elaborate on how consensual sex and non consensual sex look different?

Facial expressions of and noises from participants would be two indicators I'd imagine.

givyjoe

Mrsmum wrote: »

But what is your point exactly ? That because some wrong minded people behave like this (offensive language used to describe women) that we should be ok with other wrong minded people doing it ? I'm sure that there are people who still use the n word for black people but most people have got the message that it is unacceptable. Imagine if it came out that Pat Kenny say was laughing and calling a guest on his programme a n.... in private texts, he'd be out the door. Actually my son has told me that some of his coloured friends at school use this word about themselves messing like but that they would not like white people to do it. To slag yourself off is one thing, accepting it from others is a different thing altogether.

Excuse you, coloured friends?!

Mrsmum

givyjoe wrote: »

Excuse you, coloured friends?!

Note sure what this means.
Is coloured not the right term, maybe not ??
Or are you poking fun at the idea of my son having coloured/black friends ?? In which case he goes to a very large Dublin school. How could he not have friends of all sorts including coloured/black.
What is your point ?

givyjoe

Silentcorner wrote: »

Dara thought everything was hunky dorey, the young lady claimed she had froze at that stage.

No she hadn't, she claimed she froze when she was pushed onto the bed and jeans pulled down. She couldn't have been frozen when the door came open as quite conciously said she turned her head to avoid being filmed, rather odd she was worried about being filmed rather than seeing it as an opportunity to ask the other woman for help.

Galwayguy35

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I understand. Just the general commentary is becoming polarised between the genders and for the future this isn't good.

Well when you have people like Roe McDermott and Una Mullally shouting about toxic masculinity and rape culture that will happen.

goz83

Mrsmum wrote: »

Note sure what this means.
Is coloured not the right term, maybe not ??
Or are you poking fun at the idea of my son having coloured/black friends ?? In which case he goes to a very large Dublin school. How could he not have friends of all sorts including coloured/black.
What is your point ?

Bless you.

givyjoe

givyjoe wrote: »

No she hadn't, she claimed she froze when she was pushed onto the bed and jeans pulled down. She couldn't have been frozen when the door came open as quite conciously said she turned her head to avoid being filmed, rather odd she was worried about being filmed rather than seeing it as an opportunity to ask the other woman for help.

Sorry for being coarse, but she could hardly speak with her mouth full.

FrancieBrady

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well when you have people like Roe McDermott and Una Mullally shouting about toxic masculinity and rape culture that will happen.

Imagine if Roe got her way: women would be able to withdraw consent the morning after if they wanted to.

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Note sure what this means.
Is coloured not the right term, maybe not ??
Or are you poking fun at the idea of my son having coloured/black friends ?? In which case he goes to a very large Dublin school. How could he not have friends of all sorts including coloured/black.
What is your point ?

its pretty poor form as a term

dated is the best you could say about it

Mrsmum

goz83 wrote: »

Bless you.

Why don't you just explain your point.

NAGDEFI

goz83 wrote: »

When you have groups of women with placards condemning all men, it’s not surprising that we were eventually going to say something to defend our gender. Sure even some of the women are sick of the attitude of the man haters.

I ignore them for the lunatic fringe that they are. Say you have 1.5 million adult females in Ireland, 2% of that is 30,000. A small minority can make an awful lot of noise. Most of the women i know analyse the case in a rational way.

They are also going to post a lot on message boards, tweet and appear more prominent than they really are. The silent majority are less inclined.

That march by that feminist group before the Ulster match on Friday was a damp squib.

Mrsmum

Deleted User wrote: »

its pretty poor form as a term

dated is the best you could say about it

Fair enough if it's not correct.

givyjoe

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry for being coarse, but she could hardly speak with her mouth full.

Did she rip his knob off when she turned her head then? Had to be coarse. The evidence was that there were no hands on her head, how exactly do you force someone to give you oral, with no force. Did he have a penis with plyers functionality?

Silentcorner

givyjoe wrote: »

No she hadn't, she claimed she froze when she was pushed onto the bed and jeans pulled down. She couldn't have been frozen when the door came open as quite conciously said she turned her head to avoid being filmed, rather odd she was worried about being filmed rather than seeing it as an opportunity to ask the other woman for help.

I don't think you understand what the term frozen means in this instance, when she says she froze she means she didn't scream/fight/run, she went along with it, which is what sexual assault experts refer to as tonic immobility

Tonic immobility has also been hypothesized to occur in humans undergoing intense trauma, including sexual assault. While "freezing" in response to life-threatening situations is well-known, the common "freeze" response exhibited by victims of rape is often misunderstood as passive consent (as per Wikipedia)

I can only imagine how frightening it must be for any person to enter this state of mind...

Faugheen

givyjoe wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry for being coarse, but she could hardly speak with her mouth full.

Did she rip his knob off when she turned her head then? Had to be coarse. The evidence was that there were no hands on her head, how exactly do you force someone to give you oral, with no force. Did he have a penis with plyers functionality?

Come on, you're not that ignorant.

Even the defence's own witness admitted that rape victims more often than not tend to let it happen. It's not always the aggressive and violent act that we see in tv shows and films.

Actually, there's a rape scene in 13 Reasons Why on Netflix where the victim froze as you could put it.

FrancieBrady

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't think you understand what the term frozen means in this instance, when she says she froze she means she didn't scream/fight/run, she went along with it, which is what sexual assault experts refer to as tonic immobility

Tonic immobility has also been hypothesized to occur in humans undergoing intense trauma, including sexual assault. While "freezing" in response to life-threatening situations is well-known, the common "freeze" response exhibited by victims of rape is often misunderstood as passive consent (as per Wikipedia)

I can only imagine how frightening it must be for any person to enter this state of mind...

Can you also worry about other things (like somebody having a camera/ social media etc) while in state?

Silentcorner

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you also worry about other things (like somebody having a camera/ social media etc) while in state?

You'd have to ask an expert...but i'd imagine someone in that state is not thinking rationally!

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't think you understand what the term frozen means in this instance, when she says she froze she means she didn't scream/fight/run, she went along with it, which is what sexual assault experts refer to as tonic immobility

Tonic immobility has also been hypothesized to occur in humans undergoing intense trauma, including sexual assault. While "freezing" in response to life-threatening situations is well-known, the common "freeze" response exhibited by victims of rape is often misunderstood as passive consent (as per Wikipedia)

I can only imagine how frightening it must be for any person to enter this state of mind...

Can you also worry about other things (like somebody having a camera/ social media etc) while in state?

Are you trying to speculate as to what the complainant was or wasn't thinking without a shred of evidence?

You know, the very thing you had a go at me for?

FrancieBrady

Silentcorner wrote: »

You'd have to ask an expert...but i'd imagine someone in that state is not thinking rationally!

That is just it. The prosecution was not able to convince the jury that this happened.

givyjoe

Faugheen wrote: »

Come on, you're not that ignorant.

Even the defence's own witness admitted that rape victims more often than not tend to let it happen. It's not always the aggressive and violent act that we see in tv shows and films.

Actually, there's a rape scene in 13 Reasons Why on Netflix where the victim froze as you could put it.

What's ignorance got to do with practicality? It's another hole in the evidence she provided. How do you explain the alleged victim being more concerned with being filmed than asking for help, that simply doesn't add up.

Silentcorner

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is just it. The prosecution was not able to convince the jury that this happened.

Ya I know.

Silentcorner

givyjoe wrote: »

What's ignorance got to do with practicality? It's another hole in the evidence she provided. How do you explain the alleged victim being more concerned with being filmed than asking for help, that simply doesn't add up.

She wasn't thinking rationally. She was reacting to what she believed to be a dangerous situation, she thought Rory Harrisson was coming out of the house after her to attack her for gods sake!

givyjoe

Silentcorner wrote: »

She wasn't thinking rationally. She was reacting to what she believed to be a dangerous situation, she thought Rory Harrisson was coming out of the house after her to attack her for gods sake!

She seems to be thinking fairly rationally with regard to being filmed, again being frozen aka going along with it, doesn't add up with this specific action. She very clearly gave evidence that she didn't want to be filmed and that is why she turned her head. All very rational regardless of whether she was actually being raped or not.

givyjoe

Silentcorner wrote: »

She wasn't thinking rationally. She was reacting to what she believed to be a dangerous situation, she thought Rory Harrisson was coming out of the house after her to attack her for gods sake!

Was that before or after she went back in for her things?

Faugheen

givyjoe wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Come on, you're not that ignorant.

Even the defence's own witness admitted that rape victims more often than not tend to let it happen. It's not always the aggressive and violent act that we see in tv shows and films.

Actually, there's a rape scene in 13 Reasons Why on Netflix where the victim froze as you could put it.

What's ignorance got to do with practicality? It's another hole in the evidence she provided. How do you explain the alleged victim being more concerned with being filmed than asking for help, that simply doesn't add up.

Have you been raped before?

If not, you can't possibly determine it to be that simple when you have never been in that situation.

It absolutely is ignorance to claim otherwise.

Could she have thought DF was a friend of the lads? Could she have thought she was in on the whole thing?

Or, it could be what you say.

End of the day, you can't say it doesn't make sense for her to react like that when you have to idea what rape actually looks like or what people think in that situation.

Silentcorner

givyjoe wrote: »

She seems to be thinking fairly rationally with regard to being filmed, again being frozen aka going along with it, doesn't add up with this specific action. She very clearly gave evidence that she didn't want to be filmed and that is why she turned her head. All very rational regardless of whether she was actually being raped or not.

Look, if you are happy enough to believe that then fair enough.

The part of the incident with Dara Florence is only one part of the whole saga that has divided people's opinions, it is not the only one.

Silentcorner

givyjoe wrote: »

Was that before or after she went back in for her things?

She left without her things....does someone thinking rationally do that?

givyjoe

Faugheen wrote: »

Have you been raped before?

If not, you can't possibly determine it to be that simple when you have never been in that situation.

It absolutely is ignorance to claim otherwise.

Could she have thought DF was a friend of the lads? Could she have thought she was in on the whole thing?

Or, it could be what you say.

End of the day, you can't say it doesn't make sense for her to react like that when you have to idea what rape actually looks like or what people think in that situation.

Have you been raped before?

How is it ignorance when you say 'what I say' is a possible explanation.. I haven't offered an explanation, I've questioned the validity of her claiming she was frozen when some of her actions contradict that. Neither of us are experts so you really aren't in a position to determine what is or isn't ignorant.

Your other speculation is irrelevant, in the words of the claimant, she said she turned away because she thought the girl entering was going to film her. I wonder what high profile rugby threesome video gave her that idea?

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

Are you trying to speculate as to what the complainant was or wasn't thinking without a shred of evidence?

You know, the very thing you had a go at me for?

You seem to have an inability to understand your own posts and mine.

If you look (you don't have to do it too carefully even) you will see I was asking Silent to 'speculate'.

Wombatman

skearnsot wrote: »

I would also like to say that the way young women dress (or forget to dress) is absolutely appalling! I’m NOT SAYING THEY ARE ASKING FOR TROUBLE before the feminazi brigade start spewing about rights and equality etc BUUUUUUT if they are going out with their wares on display like it or not they’re sending a message albeit unconsciously!! If men went out so scantily clad one thinks they’d be done for indecent exposure
Add that to drink & drugs etc on both sides - yikes

"Wares on display". Somebody just sent me a message unconsciously to never invite them to a beach party.

Faugheen

givyjoe wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Have you been raped before?

If not, you can't possibly determine it to be that simple when you have never been in that situation.

It absolutely is ignorance to claim otherwise.

Could she have thought DF was a friend of the lads? Could she have thought she was in on the whole thing?

Or, it could be what you say.

End of the day, you can't say it doesn't make sense for her to react like that when you have to idea what rape actually looks like or what people think in that situation.

Have you been raped before?

How is it ignorance when you say 'what I say' is a possible explanation.. I haven't offered an explanation, I've questioned the validity of her claiming she was frozen when some of her actions contradict that. Neither of us are experts so you really aren't in a position to determine what is or isn't ignorant.

Your other speculation is irrelevant, in the words of the claimant, she said she turned away because she thought the girl entering was going to film her. I wonder what high profile rugby threesome video gave her that idea?

I'm not the one questioning her evidence and saying it makes no sense for her to react like that, you are.

You admit you're not an expert but yet you're trying to say that what her account of being raped is makes no sense, can you not see that?

You refuse to acknowledge the idea that victims of rape don't always think rationally. It's like if a group of people were to jump you. Some people can find a way out of that situation, others let it happen. Rape is very similar in that sense.

You say that neither of us are experts yet you're the one trying to discredit her evidence based on what some rape victims do.

You have no idea what her thinking was that night and you've no idea what it's like to experience rape, so you can't possibly say whether her account makes sense or not.