Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

I read that he was booed off the pitch by the home fans last weekend.

Whole team is getting it in the neck from the fans. Plenty of players face the ire of fans from time to time....doesn't mean jack shìt. They're top level athletes...that's the reason they're on the pitch and a fat lad full of opinions is in the stands.*

*not calling you a fat lad with opinions jm08!!!!

jeffleppard

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair enough, I stand corrected. But it still doesnt explain why the other three all left their phones behind. When most people leave their home keys, phone and wallet are what you always take with you. It also came out on court that there was a concerted effort to delete text messages which again suggests they were trying to get rid of any incriminating evidence. Also Harrison told McIllory : “Sorry I’m out for dinner and can’t speak. Let me know when you’re done.” and “I’d say leave your phone.” This happened before McIllroy went down to the police station for questioning. The only thing any reasonable person could take from that instruction was they didnt want the police to see the text messages.

What's the source for the bold bit? The transcript also shows McIlroy and Harrison exchanging a message and 2 10-second calls (presumably while Harrison is going over to pick them up), so Harrison probably had his phone on him in the cafe too:

1.22pm Harrison makes a 10 second call to McIlroy.

1:.38pm McIlroy text to Harrison to ask “you near?” Message deleted and recovered.

1:38pm Harrison makes a 11-second call to McIlroy.


It's also not obvious why McIlroy would be the only one of him, Jackson and Olding with his phone in the cafe - he's the only one at that stage where it can be proven he knows the girl was upset in the taxi (as Harrison messaged him earlier - no messages were sent by Harrison to Olding/Jackson on the transcript by then). McIlroy would be the most likely of the 3 not to take his phone. Also, they're about to go to a place with numerous potential witnesses when at least one of their group is widely recognised by the public so they're not hiding the fact they're meeting very well - what would leaving their phones achieve in terms of a cover up given that?

Re: the deleted messages, agree it looks dubious - McIlroy's reason was that he panicked and deleted them on the way down to the police station once the police called him because he thought they read badly. In Harrison's case from memory his barrister said it was never actually shown by the prosecution that he deleted any individual messages - RH claimed his phone froze up sometime in August, he tried to get it repaired then did a full factory reset on it when this wasn't possible. By this time the police have BM's phone and have spoken to the complainant so they'd be able to see any messages he'd sent either of them already.

Re: the 'leave your phone' message, again agree it looks pretty dodgy, but then if he thinks the police are going to be interested in the contents of BM's phone because BM has committed a crime and RH knows this, it's very odd that he'd send him a message that he must know the police are almost certainly going to see at some point very soon.

Yeah_Right

mfceiling wrote: »

Whole team is getting it in the neck from the fans. Plenty of players face the ire of fans from time to time....doesn't mean jack shìt. They're top level athletes...that's the reason they're on the pitch and a fat lad full of opinions is in the stands.*

*not calling you a fat lad with opinions jm08!!!!

Yeah Perpingnon are a poor team. Which is a shame as they're one of the traditional powerhouses of French rugby. London Irish are in a similar situation in England. I still think Jacko should head to Super Rugby. He'd stroll into any of the Aussie teams.

Muahahaha

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yeah Perpingnon are a poor team. Which is a shame as they're one of the traditional powerhouses of French rugby. London Irish are in a similar situation in England. I still think Jacko should head to Super Rugby. He'd stroll into any of the Aussie teams.

He defintely would stroll in to an Aussie team but earning Aussie dollars wont do much to help him pay down his £500,000 legal bill, AUD$ has fallen alot as has the entire game of Rugby Union in Australia, Rugby League dominates it in terms of crowds and wages for players. Going to London Irish would be a good move for him to re-build his career, he is 27 now and only has a few years left. He needs to kick on quickly but being the fly-half in a relgated team will not help his earning power, it is not a good look for his agent in a contract negotiation with a new team.

flatty

Muahahaha wrote: »

He defintely would stroll in to an Aussie team but earning Aussie dollars wont do much to help him pay down his £500,000 legal bill, AUD$ has fallen alot as has the entire game of Rugby Union in Australia, Rugby League dominates it in terms of crowds and wages for players. Going to London Irish would be a good move for him to re-build his career, he is 27 now and only has a few years left. He needs to kick on quickly but being the fly-half in a relgated team will not help his earning power, it is not a good look for his agent in a contract negotiation with a new team.

Aj Bell has been sold, so Sale may go back in for him.

facehugger99

Muahahaha wrote: »

he is 27 now and only has a few years left.

Can't see him being inundated with offers on the after-dinner speaking circuit or media punditry roles post-retirement somehow.

Yeah_Right

facehugger99 wrote: »

Can't see him being inundated with offers on the after-dinner speaking circuit or media punditry roles post-retirement somehow.

Why not? Could be more interesting than some of the others currently out there. I know of a few ex-rugby players out there doing the dinner speaking and punditry stuff who were actually convicted of crimes.

Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and he has his own one-man show.

Roger Hassenforder

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why not? Could be more interesting than some of the others currently out there. I know of a few ex-rugby players out there doing the dinner speaking and punditry stuff who were actually convicted of crimes.

Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and he has his own one-man show.

Spot the difference:

Privilged, white & innocent.
Was ran out of the country.

V
Disadvantaged, black & convicted.
Feted, with a show.

Muahahaha

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why not? Could be more interesting than some of the others currently out there. I know of a few ex-rugby players out there doing the dinner speaking and punditry stuff who were actually convicted of crimes.

Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and he has his own one-man show.

Tyson aside I just cant see the likes of Price Waterhouse Coopers or Bank of Ireland paying Jackson money for an after dinner speech. Lets not forget it was the sponsors who were ultimately responsible for his sacking from Ulster Rugby, the Twitter outrage was just noise at the end of the day and it was the sponsors who really put the boot in. These are blue chip companies who wouldnt want to be associated with him regardless of the court verdict. Rightly or wrongly it is the reality of his situation.

Sunflower 27

Muahahaha wrote: »

the Twitter outrage was just noise at the end of the day and it was the sponsors who really put the boot in

I think it's delusional to think the "Twitter noise" wasn't behind the sponsors putting the boot in

anewme

Muahahaha wrote: »

Tyson aside I just cant see the likes of Price Waterhouse Coopers or Bank of Ireland paying Jackson money for an after dinner speech. Lets not forget it was the sponsors who were ultimately responsible for his sacking from Ulster Rugby, the Twitter outrage was just noise at the end of the day and it was the sponsors who really put the boot in. These are blue chip companies who wouldnt want to be associated with him regardless of the court verdict. Rightly or wrongly it is the reality of his situation.

I attend a lot of corporate type events and if he was listed as a speaker, I'd have severe words with the organisers.

What would exactly be his pitch?

Irrespective of being found not guilty, I've no respect for him as a person due to his own behaviour and lack of basic human decency and would certainly not want to be in the same room as him.

I believe they all should get on with their lives now without harassment, but he needs to pick a career that suits him post playing, out of the public arena as he's dirtied his bib too much to recover.

FrancieBrady

anewme wrote: »

I attend a lot of corporate type events and if he was listed as a speaker, I'd have severe words with the organisers.

What would exactly be his pitch?

Irrespective of being found not guilty, I've no respect for him as a person due to his own behaviour and lack of basic human decency and would certainly not want to be in the same room as him.

I believe they all should get on with their lives now without harassment, but he needs to pick a career that suits him post playing, out of the public arena as he's dirtied his bib too much to recover.

Somebody chooses not to go to corporate event shocker. :rolleyes:

Personally, I would go whatever he was talking about and be even more willing to go if he was to talk about his experiences during these events.
I would also be interested to hear the girl's experiences/point of view.

anewme

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody chooses not to go to corporate event shocker. :rolleyes:

Personally, I would go whatever he was talking about and be even more willing to go if he was to talk about his experiences during these events.
I would also be interested to hear the girl's experiences/point of view.

I would not choose not to go.

I'd just make sure this speaker was not on the Agenda.

He has done nothing to be proud of or for others to aspire to. He has no selling point.

What do you think he could possibly say that people might want to listen to?

The corporate types would choke on their tiramisu if he started regaling the room with the content of his whatsapp.

You clearly don't go to many of these type of events or you'd be aware the organisers are extremely careful who they choose to speak.

The point is he has no future in sports PR or communications, which can be an option open to other retired sports people.

So Paddy...there's no ridin' at a spitroast?
Yeah....typical corporate event chat.

FrancieBrady

anewme wrote: »

I would not choose not to go.

I'd just make sure this speaker was not on the Agenda.

He has done nothing to be proud of or for others to aspire to. He has no selling point.

What do you think he could possibly say that people might want to listen to?

The corporate types would choke on their tiramisu if he started regaling the room with the content of his whatsapp.

You clearly don't go to many of these type of events or you'd be aware the organisers are extremely careful who they choose to speak.

The point is he has no future in sports PR or communications, which can be an option open to other retired sports people.

Didn't realise you set all the agendas at these events.

International sportsman who has been through an ordeal and has come through it successfully? Plenty have been through ordeals of one kind or another.
Depends on what their attitude is to that.

There would be huge interest imo, if he has a successful career from this point. And he seems to be.

And no, I never said it would be on the basis of some locker room chat.

anewme

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't realise you set all the agendas at these events.

International sportsman who has been through an ordeal and has come through it successfully? Plenty have been through ordeals of one kind or another.
Depends on what their attitude is to that.

There would be huge interest imo, if he has a successful career from this point. And he seems to be.

And no, I never said it would be on the basis of some locker room chat.

Nope I don't set all the Agendas, only the ones I organise.

However, I know the Agenda of those I attend before I attend.

I guarantee you there is not one Event Management Company in Ireland or further afield that would even consider putting Paddy Jackson on their books.

he has done nothing to be proud of, only shown himself to have a very poor personal moral code.

That would not fly with any corporates and I'm surprised anyone would even think it would.

You have to be messing, surely?

FrancieBrady

....at mention of being interested to hear the young ladies side if things I'm not sure how serious one can take this francie poster TBH.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

.... and be even more willing to go if he was to talk about his experiences during these events.
I would also be interested to hear the girl's experiences/point of view.

FrancieBrady

anewme wrote: »

Nope I don't set all the Agendas, only the ones I organise.

However, I know the Agenda of those I attend before I attend.

I guarantee you there is not one Event Management Company in Ireland or further afield that would even consider putting Paddy Jackson on their books.

he has done nothing to be proud of, only shown himself to have a very poor personal moral code.

That would not fly with any corporates and I'm surprised anyone would even think it would.

You have to be messing, surely?

His international rugby career is 'nothing to be proud of'???? :D

The bitterness of the judgmental twitter mob knows no bounds. I have been to plenty of corporate events and if Jackson continues to play and retires as per normal, he will have no bother attracting interest. Former rugby players go down well in corporate circles from what i have seen.

But you carry on your personal crusade to clean up the corporate after dinner circuit. Can you do anything about Bertie getting engagements or Blair?

*BTW Listening to the above (even though I would frown on what their careers amounted to) would be no bother to me either.

anewme

FrancieBrady wrote: »

His international rugby career is 'nothing to be proud of'???? :D

The bitterness of the judgmental twitter mob knows no bounds. I have been to plenty of corporate events and if Jackson continues to play and retires as per normal, he will have no bother attracting interest. Former rugby players go down well in corporate circles from what i have seen.

But you carry on your personal crusade to clean up the corporate after dinner circuit. Can you do anything about Bertie getting engagements or Blair?

*BTW Listening to the above (even though I would frown on what their careers amounted to) would be no bother to me either.

Yes former Rugby players have great earning power. They have to be able to speak and be a positive affable character. That's the whole point of it.

I never said I had a personal crusade, what I said is he does not have an option to get this type of work. That's just business and how it works. That revenue stream is not open to him. neither is punditry.

You clearly don't work in corporate circles Francis or you'd know someone involved in this type of scandal is a PR nightmare. The sponsors dropped him like a hot potato and did the same to IRFU were he to stay. no corporate business would touch him with a barge pole. That's not my crusade, that's what's happened as a result of his own behaviour.

I've not seen Bertie on the circuit, he must still in the cupboard under the sink reading the newspaper.

Captain_Crash

Grayson wrote: »

If you penetrate someone without their consent you are raping them.

Your point is that they didn't know that they were raping her. It's not that she wasn't raped.

If you genuinely believe that you have consent then it can’t be rape, and the UK is even more liberal with this than the ROI. Down south it has to be a reasonable belief, in the UK however, you just have to show you believed consent was existent, regardless of how outrageous it may sound.

So yes, if they believed they had consent and could show it at trial then under law it’s not possible that a rape took place. Although it appears they didn’t use this defense so it’s kind of a moot point

By the way I’m a lurker in this thread and intentionally haven’t commented or made my opinion public, just felt the need to clear up what appears to be some genuine confusion.

FrancieBrady

anewme wrote: »

Yes former Rugby players have great earning power. They have to be able to speak and be a positive affable character. That's the whole point of it.

I never said I had a personal crusade, what I said is he does not have an option to get this type of work. That's just business and how it works. That revenue stream is not open to him. neither is punditry.

You clearly don't work in corporate circles Francis or you'd know someone involved in this type of scandal is a PR nightmare. The sponsors dropped him like a hot potato and did the same to IRFU were he to stay. no corporate business would touch him with a barge pole. That's not my crusade, that's what's happened as a result of his own behaviour.

I've not seen Bertie on the circuit, he must still in the cupboard under the sink reading the newspaper.

I'd be suspicious of what you know if the 'circuit' tbh based on your Bertie remark.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=undefined&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwiPzp_uwrPfAhWbVBUIHdlpDY8QzPwBCAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fspreading-the-word-ahern-signs-up-for-vip-speakers-circuit-26463158.html&psig=AOvVaw2kwaFDSip4BNbEUAMFy1gF&ust=1545571020335545

If Jackson finishes out have his career successfully and so wishes to join the circuit he will have as much interest in him as any one else bar the corporate Twitteratti I suppose.
Not all of us have the fear of contamination based on a bit of locker room banter between a few horny young fellas.

anewme

Be suspicious all you like Francie.

If fact, I'd probably be more concerned if you weren't.

Youve clearly no idea how the public feel about the likes of Jackson despite seeing with your own eyes how the IRFU dealt with it due to the weight of corporate sponsors, who are in turn at the behest of the consumers.

FrancieBrady

anewme wrote: »

Be suspicious all you like Francie.

If fact, I'd probably be more concerned if you weren't.

Youve clearly no idea how the public feel about the likes of Jackson despite seeing with your own eyes how the IRFU dealt with it due to the weight of corporate sponsors, who are in turn at the behest of the consumers.

Many many people have put greater ordeals behind them.
You continue to hold your judgemental grudge if you wish. History shows that the vast majority don't.
Jackson is working his way back into top level rugby and signs are that will continue

Yeah_Right

Could I see Jackson or Olding as pundits or corporate event speakers next year? No. In 5 years, 10 years when they retire? Maybe. If they have successful careers and are articulate and engaging. The public love a good redemption story and there's precedent. I can think of various former athletes from round the world, in various sports who had successful careers on TV and the speaking circuit despite convictions for DV, drugs, assault, vehicular manslaughter, accessory to murder. Even allegations of match fixing.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jackson is working his way back into top level rugby and signs are that will continue

From Sexton's understudy at International level to being booed off the pitch in the murky depths of French rugby, while spending hundreds of thousands on legal fees.

Some career trajectory there Francie lad. Ever think of going into sports management?

salmocab

facehugger99 wrote: »

From Sexton's understudy at International level to being booed off the pitch in the murky depths of French rugby, while spending hundreds of thousands on legal fees.

Some career trajectory there Francie lad. Ever think of going into sports management?

Murky depths of French rugby? What do you think that is, he’s playing in a top league it’s not like he disappeared to Japan or the English second division.

mfceiling

facehugger99 wrote: »

to being booed off the pitch in the murky depths of French rugby

Talk crap much? Murky depths? Go away out that will you.

facehugger99

salmocab wrote: »

Murky depths of French rugby? What do you think that is, he’s playing in a top league it’s not like he disappeared to Japan or the English second division.

mfceiling wrote: »

Talk crap much? Murky depths? Go away out that will you.

Jaysus lads, time to take down the Paddy Pantsdown posters off the bedroom walls and rejoin reality.

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Jaysus lads, time to take down the Paddy Pantsdown posters off the bedroom walls and rejoin reality.

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

He could well be playing for an English club next year.

The point is he is still a marketable unit and if he plays well (which is why the English club is interested) then his stock will come back to previous levels.

sightband

facehugger99 wrote: »

Jaysus lads, time to take down the Paddy Pantsdown posters off the bedroom walls and rejoin reality.

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

I’m no fan of his but just googling bits and pieces show he’s far from a busted flush.

“He is the league’s third highest scorer this season, his 89 points just six behind top scorer Gaetan Germain of Grenoble.”

Is the French league not higher paying than any other so he’s probably on more than he was at Ulster?

Granted, his reputation was left in tatters and there was considerable loss of earnings but he is still ‘in it’ and has a few years left in him. He has a buy out clause in his contract at the end of this season also so an English club will probably make offers with Perpignan performing so badly.

Bubblegummers

facehugger99 wrote: »

Jaysus lads, time to take down the Paddy Pantsdown posters off the bedroom walls and rejoin reality.

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

Far from a busted flush. Mans innocent at the end of the day and his career is slowly starting to motor again. He will be in the UK within 2 years.

awec

sightband wrote: »

I’m no fan of his but just googling bits and pieces show he’s far from a busted flush.

“He is the league’s third highest scorer this season, his 89 points just six behind top scorer Gaetan Germain of Grenoble.”

Is the French league not higher paying than any other so he’s probably on more than he was at Ulster?

Granted, his reputation was left in tatters and there was considerable loss of earnings but he is still ‘in it’ and has a few years left in him. He has a buy out clause in his contract at the end of this season also so an English club will probably make offers with Perpignan performing so badly.

French league pays very well but I doubt Jackon's current contract is huge.

Another few years he'll be at a top club earning megabucks. He's far too good not to be.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He could well be playing for an English club next year.

The point is he is still a marketable unit and if he plays well (which is why the English club is interested) then his stock will come back to previous levels.

salmocab

facehugger99 wrote: »

Jaysus lads, time to take down the Paddy Pantsdown posters off the bedroom walls and rejoin reality.

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

You really have it bad, I pointed out the French league is not some second rate league. I’ve said repeatedly here he’s a dick but people like yourself won’t be happy until he’s living under a bridge in a box.
It’s an obsession because he’s famous there was rarely chat about the other two lads as the social media warriors only cared about the fame.
If he was Paddy the plasterer you’d not have given two shiny sh1ts about that girl.

FrancieBrady

salmocab wrote: »

You really have it bad, I pointed out the French league is not some second rate league. I’ve said repeatedly here he’s a dick but people like yourself won’t be happy until he’s living under a bridge in a box.
It’s an obsession because he’s famous there was rarely chat about the other two lads as the social media warriors only cared about the fame.
If he was Paddy the plasterer you’d not have given two shiny sh1ts about that girl.

Facehugger is a bit miffed that he got playing rugby again. I wouldn't mind his/her's misery and bitterness about that.

mfceiling

facehugger99 wrote: »

He's a busted flush. He's rapidly headed in one direction and it aint up.

I'm taking it you're not a rugby fan? The direction he seems to be heading is to Lyon to replace the French international player Lionel Beauxis.
They must think he's a busted flush as well.

Bubblegummers

mfceiling wrote: »

I'm taking it you're not a rugby fan? The direction he seems to be heading is to Lyon to replace the French international player Lionel Beauxis.
They must think he's a busted flush as well.

On subject of Lyon that was some hammering today.

jeffleppard

Captain_Crash wrote: »

If you genuinely believe that you have consent then it can’t be rape, and the UK is even more liberal with this than the ROI. Down south it has to be a reasonable belief, in the UK however, you just have to show you believed consent was existent, regardless of how outrageous it may sound.

So yes, if they believed they had consent and could show it at trial then under law it’s not possible that a rape took place. Although it appears they didn’t use this defense so it’s kind of a moot point

By the way I’m a lurker in this thread and intentionally haven’t commented or made my opinion public, just felt the need to clear up what appears to be some genuine confusion.

That's completely incorrect, in the UK the belief also has to be reasonable, the accused simply believing it isn't enough if the belief is not considered reasonable

Captain_Crash

jeffleppard wrote: »

That's completely incorrect, in the UK the belief also has to be reasonable, the accused simply believing it isn't enough if the belief is not considered reasonable

Maybe I used the wrong terminology, the test for the belief being reasonable is subjective in the UK, whereas down south it’s an objective test. I wasn’t trying to say it’s a simple case of saying you thought you had consent.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

FrancieBrady wrote: »

His international rugby career is 'nothing to be proud of'???? :D

The bitterness of the judgmental twitter mob knows no bounds. I have been to plenty of corporate events and if Jackson continues to play and retires as per normal, he will have no bother attracting interest. Former rugby players go down well in corporate circles from what i have seen.

But you carry on your personal crusade to clean up the corporate after dinner circuit. Can you do anything about Bertie getting engagements or Blair?

*BTW Listening to the above (even though I would frown on what their careers amounted to) would be no bother to me either.

Twitter mobs? Pretty much everyone I know (male and female) thought the verdict was the right but considered Jackson et al to be cünts. There are plenty of former successful rugby players to choose from for speaking engagements. He’d be well down the list.

anewme

See Diageo are meeting with London Irish this week as signing Jackson does not tie in with their values. This is after another major sponsor pulled the sponsorship last week.

SharpshooterTom

anewme wrote: »

See Diageo are meeting with London Irish this week as signing Jackson does not tie in with their values. This is after another major sponsor pulled the sponsorship last week.

The club would've signed Paddy Jackson knowing there would be some predictable blowback but they've gone through with it anyway.

anewme

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

The club would've signed Paddy Jackson knowing there would be some predictable blowback but they've gone through with it anyway.

They perhaps may felt the backlash might have calmed down in some way by now.

Does not seem that way.

SharpshooterTom

anewme wrote: »

They perhaps may felt the backlash might have calmed down in some way by now.

Does not seem that way.

There will continue to be backlash until the new season is under way in October, I don't expect the sponsers to ever come back, but if the club stand strong and I think they'll be through the worst of it by the end of the year.

Fr Tod Umptious

anewme wrote: »

See Diageo are meeting with London Irish this week as signing Jackson does not tie in with their values. This is after another major sponsor pulled the sponsorship last week.

I'm no fan of Jackson and his carry on, but equally I'm not sure what positive "values" Diageo may have.

Muahahaha

Unusual for a sponsor to so publically come out against a player, there must be ructions going on in the background over his signing. Id guess Guinness were against it and said as much in private but London Irish ploughed ahead with the signing anyway. And now Guinness have gone public over the disagreement which could mean the end of their sponsorship of London Irish. It would also make it more difficult for them to attract new blue chip sponsors as a result. Jacksons signing is now causing them a headache they didn't envisage.

FrancieBrady

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

There will continue to be backlash until the new season is under way in October, I don't expect the sponsers to ever come back, but if the club stand strong and I think they'll be through the worst of it by the end of the year.

Absolutely.
Diageo would know well how to choreograph 'concern' here to dampen criticism. They'll issue a statement about 'reassurances' 'values' etc etc and we'll move on.
Or they will pull the plug for some cheap virtue signalling publicity.

Either way, London Irish would have this all thought through I'd imagine.

is_that_so

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm no fan of Jackson and his carry on, but equally I'm not sure what positive "values" Diageo may have.

They're a huge sponsor who get to choose who they will give money to, that and the bad publicity they perceive here.

Muahahaha

https://twitter.com/Morgy1312/status/1138140850825900033

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

....

Either way, London Irish would have this all thought through I'd imagine.

They might not have thought it through in a comprehensive manner. They might presume diageo wonnt walk away for instance.