Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

NAGDEFI

mfceiling wrote: »

You should have been a solicitor then with your excellent Internet arguing skills.

The real solicitors however argued successfully that Jackson and Olding should be found not guilty of the charge.

I hope no other irish sports person sends or receives an inappropriate text or whatsapp message....the eternally offended will make sure their career is finished in a heartbeat.

Again another pointless statement. If you can't see how there's an issue beyond the trial, you have a problem seeing the big picture.

Regardless of whether you think the fellas should play for Ireland or not, surely you can see there's an issue beyond the court case? Why are so many trying to blindly ignore this fact?

FrancieBrady

NAGDEFI wrote: »

That's the whole definition of privacy today again. They got caught!

Poor old 75 year old George Hook was knocked off the air for saying a girl should be very careful on a night out. Do you not think there were going to be no consequences for such messages becoming public?

Sin é an t-saol!!

Ah so it is because they got caught, no real concern for changing attitudes.

We caught them, now we burn them.

Very good. The mask has slipped. Moral indignation it is and we must publicly humiliate them. Worse than the RC church ever was, you lot.

NAGDEFI

tretorn wrote: »

As far as I was aware in this country you have the right to free association and the right to private communication with your friends.

How do you propose to police young mens conversations nagdefi.

You user name is very apt, you sound like a right old nag.

Why on earth would I care what sports players text to each other, the messages are not sent to cause me offence or harm, I have conversations on my phone I would clear if I was asked to go to a Garda Station, I can only imagine the mass clearing of phones that went on in the Rugby circles once news got out that Jackson and Olding were being questioned. The only problem as Gilroy found out to his cost, there is no point in clearing your phone after you have pressed the send button. If anyone should be barred from playing rugby its Gilroy, he said the worst text of all.

George Hook was bullied beyond belief and I knew Newstalk giving into cyber bullying was going to set a precedent and it has. The day he was sacked was the day the censor police took over and their tactics are frightening.

Thats the main reason why I want to see Jackson and Olding back, I dont care about rugby but I dont like bullying, braying mobs.

You can't police young men's communication but in this fastly evolving world when your name is recorded opposite something a lot of people find unpalatable...you're in trouble.

tretorn

There isnt any issue beyond the court case.

The did any Belfast sluts get ****ed is the really bad text and Gilroy has been sent to the bold corner.

Nothing that Jackson or Olding sent is particularly bad and if the men had been sent to prison no one would give a toss about the whatsapp messages. Telling your friends you had legal sex is not a crime and thats basically what the whatsapp messages were about.

The mob are just fermenting outrage so the torture inflicted on Jackson and olding can be prolonged.

jackson has threatened legal action and this has made the mob holdback on libellous stuff, this has made them foam at the gills.

NAGDEFI

Personally i'm agree with Neill Francis. I'd ban them from the Irish team for a year.

But have Jackson back for the World Cup:D

I don't think this should be let go without discipline. Saying all young men speak like this is neither here or there, if something is wrong and against the ethos of a sporting organisation and the views of it's membership, it's wrong.

NAGDEFI

tretorn wrote: »

There isnt any issue beyongd the court case.

The did any Belfast sluts get ****ed is the really bad text and Gilroy has been sent to the bold corner.

Nothing that Jackson or Olding sent is particularly bad and if the men had been sent to prison no one would give a toss about the whatsapp messages. Telling your friends you had legal sex is not a crime and thats basically what the whatsapp messages were about.

The mob are just fermenting outrage so the torture inflicted on Jackson and olding can be prolonged.

jackson has threatened legal action and this has made the mob holdback on libellous stuff, this has made them foam at the gills.

Apparently there is for 55-60% of people in 2 independent opinion polls. Those people are not all mad pink haired, #metoo, #i'm a belieber people. They're your friends, family, work colleagues.

Those men behaved like s*it, on a personal level. The girl was 19 on their merrygoround.

How many of you fellas have teenage daughters or preteen girls? I think if you're a single young man it's easy right it off, if you have kids, esp. daughters... not so easy lads.

tretorn

I would only be concerned about any text messages that contained child porn.

Getting outraged about use of words is just nonsensical.

Anyone with a titter of wit can see the youth of these men and with men you have to be sensitive because this age group is very prone to suicide.

Why would you drive young men to a health breakdown over a few stupid texts when you know there is hardly a person in the country who hasnt stuff on their phone they wish kept private.

Its just bullying at his stage, its not justice.

mfceiling

NAGDEFI wrote: »

If you can't see how there's an issue beyond the trial, you have a problem seeing the big picture.

An issue with how they spoke to each other in private whatsapp messages?

NAGDEFI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah so it is because they got caught, no real concern for changing attitudes.

We caught them, now we burn them.

Very good. The mask has slipped. Moral indignation it is and we must publicly humiliate them. Worse than the RC church ever was, you lot.

I've mentioned changing attitudes a lot Francie.

But you know aswell as i that a lot of things in life are down to getting caught and circumstance. And these lads, pardon the pun, were well and truly caught with the trousers down with their language, boasting, and full of themselves attitude.

If they got brought back down to earth when younger instead of being put on pedestals it might have served them better in the long run.

Muahahaha

mfceiling wrote: »

Lads you are wasting your time trying to defend the lads.

The mob

Thats the point I stopped reading. As soon as you need to lower yourself to name calling you have lost credibility and the argument

NAGDEFI

mfceiling wrote: »

An issue with how they spoke to each other in private whatsapp messages?

But nothing online or on a phone etc is private now, not when all data is stored. And it became public as part of the case and doesn't present them in a good light.

Nothing that's recordable is private now.

It's just the same as somebody getting caught saying something to a colleague when they thought the microphone was switched off.

The rape trial resulted in those messages becoming public. And of course perception is a key too.

NAGDEFI

tretorn wrote: »

I would only be concerned about any text messages that contained child porn.

Getting outraged about use of words is just nonsensical.

Anyone with a titter of wit can see the youth of these men and with men you have to be sensitive because this age group is very prone to suicide.

Why would you drive young men to a health breakdown over a few stupid texts when you know there is hardly a person in the country who hasnt stuff on their phone they wish kept private.

Its just bullying at his stage, its not justice.

Of course child porn is a lot worse. But demeaning women is not acceptable for many people either. That's bullying too.

FrancieBrady

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I've mentioned changing attitudes a lot Francie.

But you know aswell as i that a lot of things in life are down to getting caught and circumstance. And these lads, pardon the pun, were well and truly caught with the trousers down with their language, boasting, and full of themselves attitude.

If they got brought back down to earth when younger instead of being put on pedestals it might have served them better in the long run.

Attitudes have changed but underlining them still is an obnoxious RC morality.

You talked about imagining your daughter in the situation. Imagine the price your son might pay for a bit of rude banter.

Our so called christians need a big mirror.

mfceiling

NAGDEFI wrote: »

If they got brought back down to earth when younger instead of being put on pedestals it might have served them better in the long run.

When they were younger? They are 25 and 26 FFS.

Who has them on pedestals?

NAGDEFI

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats the point I stopped reading. As soon as you need to lower yourself to name calling you have lost credibility and the argument

The easy way out is 'the mob'. The pro Jacko crowd are a 'mob' too.

People are entitled to judge whether these men are mysogynistic blackguards who aren't fit to represent their country.

Children imitate these guys so much. You need some sort of standards.

Yeah 60% of the country are a mob.. BS. And the 30-40% are enlightened..

BBDBB

Im a mob!

Silentcorner

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Attitudes have changed but underlining them still is an obnoxious RC morality.

You talked about imagining your daughter in the situation. Imagine the price your son might pay for a bit of rude banter.

Our so called christians need a big mirror.

A bit of lad banter is one thing, as immature, tedious and predictable as it tends to be...

Dehumanising women is to no one's benefit...not as an individual and not as a society...if that is a road we are happy to go down, then we can get used to cases like this...they'll be coming around a lot more regularly...

NAGDEFI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Attitudes have changed but underlining them still is an obnoxious RC morality.

You talked about imagining your daughter in the situation. Imagine the price your son might pay for a bit of rude banter.

Our so called christians need a big mirror.

RC morality my backside.

Was it not Ulster who requested that the ERC QF against Munster be changed from Easter Sunday in 2012 because the side was so religious??

These would be Protestants as you're well aware Francie. The puritanical morality of the north would be more stiffling than the RC old attitude down here. But shur any oul excuse to blame the RC!!

So the Ulster hierarchy of 2012, who were so religious...how will they handle Jacko and Olding??!

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Well is it not time to stop this behaviour Tretorn?

Someone always has to take the rap. Saying everyone speaks like that is the same as saying well i got caught speeding and was fined but everyone does it so it's grossly unfair. Everyone should have a fine in the post.

You get a fine for 'speeding'.

These guys careers and livelihoods are on the line for a few rude words.

It's not just a few rude words though, do you not get it?

A woman left their company, by a number of accounts, distressed (according to Jackson, Olding), bleeding (Jackson, doctor) and hysterical (Harrison).

This has been highlighted to you numerous times and you just dismiss it with 'but they were found not guilty'. It's not about whether they raped her or not, it's about the fact that she left Jackson's house in the state she was in. You don't need a verdict to tell you that. Jackson and Olding themselves have acknowledged this, why can't you?

This is something that will be looked at. Anyone who thinks these reviews are just about a few WhatsApp messages either haven't a clue what is going on or they're simply refusing to accept what the issue is.

These men are two public figures and their conduct is held to a higher standard (rightly or wrongly) than the average Joe Soap. What was meant to be a private conversation got out in public because they left a woman distressed, bleeding and in hysterics.

That is all their fault. No one else.

NAGDEFI

BBDBB wrote: »

Im a mob!

I was demobbed after the war:D

joe40

tritium wrote: »

Mrsmum wrote: »

Considering how getting really drunk and engaging in sexual activity with a stranger has impacted on the lives of these men, I'm wondering why no advice for men on how to stay safe. Drink, strangers, sex - recipe for trouble. The more you engage in this risky business the more possibilities for 'misunderstanding' or as you say yourself "something untoward happening" . I would put getting raped in the worst category but being called a rapist is a very close second. So thanks for all the advice to us females on how not to get raped but maybe you could give a think about your son's safety too and have a word with him as well as your daughter heading out the door. The girl isn't the only one whose life could change utterly in one night. Again as you said yourself Common Sense.

Jesus it’s actually depressing how every thread about this subject ends up at this point (not just you mrsmum, both sides)

Looking just at this case, mrsmums advice is pretty solid to apply to both sexes. It’s always a bit late when we’re talking in “if” but

If he hadn’t got drunk
If she hadn’t got drunk
If he’d communicated better
If she’d communicated better

and so many other “ifs” out of this mess. Frankly ifs and regrets won’t do very much now with five lives ruined, a young woman believing she’s been raped, her life ruined and denied justice and two young men believing they’ve been unfairly accused of rape and had their lives destroyed. Being sure of their own position isn’t really going to help anyone here. So, would we be doing anyone a disservice if we actually tried to give both young men and women a little advice before they head out the door (well before) around drink and communication and probably a few other things.

No point doing it because of rapists, they’ll always be there, and sometimes luck is just ****ty. How about instead doing it to stop bad, life destroying things happening amongst people who actually aren’t looking to hurt each other?

I would actually agree with that, but the thing is that advice is given all the time. Parents give that advice to their kids, schools give loads of advice around dangers of alcohol and drugs and the likelihood of high risk behavior including sexual behaviour that you may regret. Boys and girls are told this constantly.
Linking behaviour advice to actual events is problematic, it is never the victims fault in any crime.
Comparing this to road safety is not a valid comparison, you are responsible when trying to minimise accidents. Crime including rape is never an accident.

FrancieBrady

NAGDEFI wrote: »

RC morality my backside.

Was it not Ulster who requested that the ERC QF against Munster be changed from Easter Sunday in 2012 because the side was so religious??

These would be Protestants as you're well aware Francie. The puritanical morality of the north would be more stiffling than the RC old attitude down here. But shur any oul excuse to blame the RC!!

So the Ulster hierarchy of 2012, who were so religious...how will they handle Jacko and Olding??!

The most outrage is coming from the south.

Stheno

NAGDEFI wrote: »

The puritanical morality of the north would be more stiffling than the RC old attitude down here. But shur any oul excuse to blame the RC!!

So the Ulster hierarchy of 2012, who were so religious...how will they handle Jacko and Olding??!

Trimble and Piennar were/are known to be very religious

Think i read they were part of a players prayer group

I agree on the puritanical streak in the North

NAGDEFI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The most outrage is coming from the south.

Yes. Because there so fecking embarrassed. And they'll stand by their own. Think Iris Robinson and Kirkie.. swept nicely under the carpet. She was ragingly homophobic the year before. Gay sex was an abomination! Don't hear much from her now.

It would be interesting to see an Ulster poll. But, i'm a Leinster man, and if it was Sexton.. who knows what side of the mouth you'd end up talking out of..

Muahahaha

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I want men representing my country who respect women. And if many speak of terms such as fcuking sluts, spit roasting etc, that doesn't make it right. It's time people were held accountable for their behaviour before this type of language and attitude becomes a norm throughout society.

Same here, men like Sexton, Carbery & Cronin who treat their wives and girlfriends with respect.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rising-irish-rugby-star-joey-carbery-and-girlfriend-robyn-enjoy-couples-trip-in-dubai-36783899.html

Jackson and Olding are not men, they are boys who have yet to grow up and learn respect for other people. They do not deserve to wear the Irish jersey again.

NAGDEFI

Stheno wrote: »

Trimble and Piennar were/are known to be very religious

Think i read they were part of a players prayer group

I agree on the puritanical streak in the North

Yes and Andrew Trimble is an evangelical Christian.

Remember the 2003 WC when the SA and South African players joined in a prayer at the end of the group match. On youtube. Great moment actually.

NAGDEFI

Muahahaha wrote: »

Same here, men like Sexton, Carbery & Cronin who treat their wives and girlfriends with respect.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rising-irish-rugby-star-joey-carbery-and-girlfriend-robyn-enjoy-couples-trip-in-dubai-36783899.html

Jackson and Olding are not men, they are boys who have yet to grow up and learn respect for other people. They do not deserve to wear the Irish jersey again.

Brilliant summation. To me they are little school boys who haven't grown up.

NAGDEFI

BBDBB wrote: »

Im a mob!

D-Mob.. were they a band in the 90s?

Stheno

Muahahaha wrote: »

Same here, men like Sexton, Carbery & Cronin who treat their wives and girlfriends with respect.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rising-irish-rugby-star-joey-carbery-and-girlfriend-robyn-enjoy-couples-trip-in-dubai-36783899.html

Jackson and Olding are not men, they are boys who have yet to grow up and learn respect for other people. They do not deserve to wear the Irish jersey again.

This is where i have a conflict.

Im from the south but have literally spent years working in the north.

Its a different society and still mired in the past to an extent and very socially conservative.

That will go against the players.

NAGDEFI

As Muhaha says when you think of men.. you think of Rory Best, O'Connell, O'Driscoll, Sexton etc.

Eventually most men settle down with a partner/wife like Cronin, Earls, Sexton, Best.

These boys eventually need to grow up have families, provide leadership. I don't think it's feasible to be having 3 somes with your best mate for the rest of your life. Unless we want a generation of Peter Pan's exaggerating they're sex lives and literally not being able to do anything without the best mate beside you.

Grow a pair chaps and stand on your own two feet.

FrancieBrady

The RC philosophy - as long as you are not caught - all is good.
As long as it doesn't happen in Ireland, (i.e. playing your rugby or abortion) we can keep our pious holier than thou hat on. :rolleyes:

BBDBB

Muahahaha wrote: »

Same here, men like Sexton, Carbery & Cronin who treat their wives and girlfriends with respect.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rising-irish-rugby-star-joey-carbery-and-girlfriend-robyn-enjoy-couples-trip-in-dubai-36783899.html

Jackson and Olding are not men, they are boys who have yet to grow up and learn respect for other people. They do not deserve to wear the Irish jersey again.

that final two lines dont make logical sense

they're boys who need to grow up and learn respect


so once they've done that haven't they earned the right to wear that jersey again?

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

Jeez, I wouldn't like to be judged for some of the decisions I made back when I was younger, less worldly, less experienced. Id convict myself if I was being judged by how I was back then, the things I did and said by modern standards wouldn't pass muster. Does that make me a terrible person? I used to be an arsehole but life gave me experience and I learned a few lessons along the way

Muahahaha

Je suis le Mob :cool:

66% of the Irish public dont want them in an Irish jersey again. Let the Ulster lads have them back if they can handle lowering the standards of their club that much that they take the self proclaimed "legends" back. Luckily for the rest of us Joe Schmidt is one of the most intelligent rugby managers in the world and will not be having them within an asses roar of another Irish cap. The Irish public wouldnt stand for it, Joe knows it, the IRFU know it and the sponsors know it.

NAGDEFI

Stheno wrote: »

This is where i have a conflict.

Im from the south but have literally spent years working in the north.

Its a different society and still mired in the past to an extent and very socially conservative.

That will go against the players.

Very interesting Stheno.

In an ideal world i hope they play for Ulster and Ireland again and grow up. But i think a certain time period of a break is needed to rehabilitate them as men.

NAGDEFI

Muahahaha wrote: »

Je suis le Mob :cool:

66% of the Irish public dont want them in an Irish jersey again. Let the Ulster lads have them back if they can handle lowering the standards of their club that much that they take the self proclaimed "legends" back. Luckily for the rest of us Joe Schmidt is one of the most intelligent rugby managers in the world and will not be having them within an asses roar of another Irish cap. The Irish public wouldnt stand for it, Joe knows it, the IRFU know it and the sponsors know it.

I don't believe it will happen but..

if the 2 lads walked straight onto the Ulster team without a word. What does that say to society today? And in particular young men?

Women are not equal to men. You use them for sex when you can. Most of them are sluts. As an elite sports person you can speak about women whatever way you want. Certain people are privileged.

Muahahaha

BBDBB wrote: »

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

tritium

joe40 wrote: »

I would actually agree with that, but the thing is that advice is given all the time. Parents give that advice to their kids, schools give loads of advice around dangers of alcohol and drugs and the likelihood of high risk behavior including sexual behaviour that you may regret. Boys and girls are told this constantly.
Linking behaviour advice to actual events is problematic, it is never the victims fault in any crime.
Comparing this to road safety is not a valid comparison, you are responsible when trying to minimise accidents. Crime including rape is never an accident.

I never linked this to a crime. Whether we like it or not there was technically no crime here. At the end of this non- crime there are however five victims all of whom believe they told the truth and were wronged. That’s not really a great outcome is it?

Well and good saying it’s given all the time. Why isn’t it working so. Why are so many young men and women getting smashed and doing dumb things? And oddly it’s the same dumb things the generation before did. Maybe we should try the message a different way?

NAGDEFI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RC philosophy - as long as you are not caught - all is good.
As long as it doesn't happen in Ireland, (i.e. playing your rugby or abortion) we can keep our pious holier than thou hat on. :rolleyes:

You're dying to have a cut off the RC Francie but you won't mention Puritanism at all? Easy target. And this invisible 'mob', easy target.

This has NOTHING to do with abortion.

joe40

I have been told that Ulster rugby club would have quite a strong "christian ethos" I'm not sure if that is true don't follow rugby that closely.

Wrongway1985

Faugheen wrote: »

These men are two public figures and their conduct is held to a higher standard (rightly or wrongly) than the average Joe Soap. What was meant to be a private conversation got out in public because they left a woman distressed, bleeding and in hysterics.

That is all their fault. No one else.

Spot on, all for them returning to their lives with accusation not proven in court. These lads however were essentially bragging about a gang bang with a 19yo not a good outlook, what credible brands would want association with these fellas for instance??

BBDBB

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

I never realised we must stop learning at 21

after that

no more education,

by 21 all lives lessons must be learned and ingrained as behavioural patterns

tretorn

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

Olding was twenty two, just saying.

Stheno

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Very interesting Stheno.

In an ideal world i hope they play for Ulster and Ireland again and grow up. But i think a certain time period of a break is needed to rehabilitate them as men.

And this is where i have that conflict.

Im in my forties and twenty years ago worked in an environment that was male dominated and primarily male dominated. You now would not believe some comments that were laughed at that now would be grounds for a very large payout.

I spoke to a conservative male colleague from the north a couple of days into the trial after the texts came out and he was horrified.

But these guys have lost two years of their lives and huge reputational ldamage.

I got fired once due to a mistake i made and it literally took me years to undo it.

Do these guys not deserve a chance? I genuinely dont know

FrancieBrady

NAGDEFI wrote: »

You're dying to have a cut off the RC Francie but you won't mention Puritanism at all? Easy target. And this invisible 'mob', easy target.

This has NOTHING to do with abortion.

It doesn't have anything to do with abortion but it does have to do with the same hypocrisy.
It is ok if you play rugby outside the country, that makes us all feel righteous and pure. :rolleyes:

NAGDEFI

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

Exactly. And Craig Gilroy is about 27 now, made his Ireland debut in 2012. They're not chaps. His messaged was one that sounded like one only a complete knob would send.

They are not 17/18 is right, a good kick up the ar*e would serve them all, if they concentrated on their provincial rugby and winning something it would be more in their line.

And anyone who considers themself an athlete and consumes, whatever, 23 drinks on a night out... That's not an athlete..

NAGDEFI

joe40 wrote: »

I have been told that Ulster rugby club would have quite a strong "christian ethos" I'm not sure if that is true don't follow rugby that closely.

Certain players would and the South African influence.

meeeeh

BBDBB wrote: »

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

Normally no, but you are not entitled to a career that so heavily rests on adulation of the fans. It's a career that is richly rewarded but also precarious. A talent is worth very little if you can't monetize it. Nobody is overly worried where the other two work or will work but they don't need an approval of the masses to do their job.

NAGDEFI

tretorn wrote: »

Olding was twenty two, just saying.

Twenty two. Many men had started rearing a family at that age.

Though i think Olding is the best of the lot of them. Only my opinion but i find the other fella very arrogant.

BBDBB

Stheno wrote: »

And this is where i have that conflict.

Im in my forties and twenty years ago worked in an environment that was male dominated and primarily male dominated. You now would not believe some comments that were laughed at that now would be grounds for a very large payout.

I spoke to a conservative male colleague from the

narcolepsy

its a terrible condition to live with

Stheno

BBDBB wrote: »

narcolepsy

its a terrible condition to live with

I woke up