Save Cork City - Love the Lee

whisky_galore

Is it having any impact on the powers that be or the OPW or is it just hipsters and business people holding up signs for the camera?

thomil

From my perspective, it's just the usual anti-everything blowhards, combined with the usual "Cork is de most beauuuuutiful city in de world, like" crowd. Their "alternatives" are pie-in-the-sky stuff that will wreak havoc on the ecosystem of the Lee estuary with negligible benefits, and major drawbacks upstream. Any criticism is shouted down, and if you challenge them on social media, you'll get blocked ASAP. They're not getting any traction that I can see, and rightly so!

AugustusMinimus

thomil wrote: »

From my perspective, it's just the usual anti-everything blowhards, combined with the usual "Cork is de most beauuuuutiful city in de world, like" crowd. Their "alternatives" are pie-in-the-sky stuff that will wreak havoc on the ecosystem of the Lee estuary with negligible benefits, and major drawbacks upstream. Any criticism is shouted down, and if you challenge them on social media, you'll get blocked ASAP. They're not getting any traction that I can see, and rightly so!

Could you explain how a tidal barrier is pie in the sky? It’s an elegant solution to a problem and doesn’t involve years of resconstructing Quay walls.

It has worked in many cities where tidal flooding is a big issue.

jimgoose

thomil wrote: »

From my perspective, it's just the usual anti-everything blowhards, combined with the usual "Cork is de most beauuuuutiful city in de world, like" crowd. Their "alternatives" are pie-in-the-sky stuff that will wreak havoc on the ecosystem of the Lee estuary with negligible benefits, and major drawbacks upstream. Any criticism is shouted down, and if you challenge them on social media, you'll get blocked ASAP. They're not getting any traction that I can see, and rightly so!

They're talking about engineering devices such as the Thames Barrier and the Lake Borgne surge barrier at the mouth of the Mississippi. As far as I can make out the "pie-in-the-sky" aspect is the OPW blowing practically infinite quantities of my money on a horde of shovel-breastfeeders tilting at windmills by re-doing those obsolete and useless quay walls.

thomil

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Could you explain how a tidal barrier is pie in the sky? It’s an elegant solution to a problem and doesn’t involve years of resconstructing Quay walls.

It has worked in many cities where tidal flooding is a big issue.

Gladly.

1.) It's a single point of failure. If the barrier fails in a flooding situation, that's it, there's no way to contain such a situation, no second line of defence. If the walls are breached, mobile barriers can be positioned to halt any spread of the flood waters. I've seen that happen in Frankfurt, when the River Main burst its banks about a decade ago.

2.) It will destroy the the ecosystem in Lough Mahon. Tidal flats are extremely sensitive biomes, with a biodiversity that rivals the Amazonian rainforest. however, such a system is extremely sensitive to changes, changes that a tidal barrier would invariably bring, not least with regards to lower salinity and higher silting behind the barrier.

3.) It will make the city docks completely unusable in the long run. I already mentioned silting in item 2. Channeling the river into a couple of small openings in any barrier will drastically restrict the flow of water in the upper reaches of the Lee. Silt that would normally be spread throughout Lough Mahon and the lower harbour will now be deposited further upstream, necessitating more frequent dredging, to a point where it might become infeasible. The dual locks that the plan entails would not be nearly enough to mitigate such silting. As a result, it is very likely that Cork's shining new docklands developments could find itself next to a shallow, fetid basin instead of a river.

4.) It is based on the false premise that the Cork waterfront has ANY redeeming qualities. It doesn't, along most stretches of the quays it has all the charm of a shantytown with its crooked houses and peeling off paint. Besides, it is possible to integrate flood defence features into a redesign of any waterfront. I've seen it myself in my home, Hamburg.

There's real life references for all issues described above. The Flood barriers along the German coast for one, whether it is Ems, Oste, Eider or other rivers. The Delta Works in the Netherlands have all thrown up similar issues as well, there's ample documentation on that. Yet, the "rent-a-expert" from the Netherlands that SCS hired to defend their harebrained plan in their stead curiously omitted all of that. He who pays the piper, and all that..

As for flood defence walls and pumping stations, they simply WORK. I've seen that in Hamburg, in Stade, in Cuxhaven, and other places. I grew up along the Elbe Estuary in the 1980s and early 1990s, I've experienced quite a number of severe flood events, all of them without fatalities simply due to the presence of WALLS. The city center of Hamburg is criss-crossed with them, some plainly visible, some integrated into buildings, especially in the "Hafen City", Hamburg's counterpart to the London Docklands, and some landscaped to be less intrusive, such as the Baumwall flood defence, which doubles as a viewing terrace over the Port of Hamburg, that city's largest tourist attraction.
For Hamburg, it was easy to retrofit the city with such a system following the disastrous flood of February 1962, which cost 300 lives. They've been upgrading their systems ever since. If there's no historically grown flood defence system in place, then of course it will take a lot of money, work and time to retrofit a city with decent flood defences. However these difficulties will pay off in the long run.

I've written two articles about this on my blog, where I go further into depth on this (no pun intended) I originally wanted to write 3-4 parts, but I got sidetracked when my dad passed away. So ignore any references to parts 3 and 4 please.

https://blametheweather.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/cork-flood-defences-who-saves-us-from-save-cork-city-part-1/

https://blametheweather.wordpress.com/2017/10/07/cork-flood-defences-who-saves-us-from-save-cork-city-part-2/

11214

How are they saving the city?

Doge

Edit: misquoted thomil!

I don't think its as half as bad as the campaign is making out.


I mean look at the proposal, the barrier isn't half as intrusive as I expected it to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7a4hvMVEE

Unless you're one foot tall you can still see the river perfectly, its a load of hot air about nothing

cgcsb

It's a pretty cool proposal. Urban quay sides should be attractive places to walk/sit/cycle. At present it's a grim car park. the video seems to show the footpath there being a shared pedestrian/cycling space, at least on the river side. That'll need to be made clear upon entry and and exit to the space.

cgcsb

It would be great if they extended the boardwalk down to FR Mathew Qy to meet the new and improved section of quays. Then extend the boardwalk west to meet the brewery quarter scheme (whatever ends up down there). That'd be a lovely walk.

macraignil

thomil wrote: »

As for flood defence walls and pumping stations, they simply WORK. /

You seem to have more experience of flood defenses than most so I'd be curious about your opinion on a suggestion on the Cork flood defense scheme that is planned. Could more of an emphasis be placed on the pumping station aspect of a flood defense in Cork?

The Cork mains drainage project was completed not that long ago with a pumping station sending the sewer water from the city to Little island. Would upgrading this system to cope with flood water occasionally be economically viable? Could this mean there could be less emphasis on large walls along the quays in the scheme?

I saw a documentary on such a system in Holland that was successful and immediately wondered could it be applied to Cork.

J82

That would mean effectively sending "clean" water to be treated at Carrigrennan Wastewater Treatment Plant. There are multiple issues with that, with probably the most significant being the detrimental impact on the plant itself. The treatment plant would be designed to cater for biological loadings associated with foul water, & it wouldn't be an option to simply overflow at that location. Also it would not be feasible to pump away the huge volume of water that flows into the city in a high tide event.

The pumps that are proposed as part of the OPW Scheme are to keep the surface water collection system flowing in times of high tide, when required. Sensible, commonplace solution in schemes nationwide and internationally.

macraignil

J82 wrote: »

That would mean effectively sending "clean" water to be treated at Carrigrennan Wastewater Treatment Plant. There are multiple issues with that, with probably the most significant being the detrimental impact on the plant itself. The treatment plant would be designed to cater for biological loadings associated with foul water, & it wouldn't be an option to simply overflow at that location. Also it would not be feasible to pump away the huge volume of water that flows into the city in a high tide event.

The pumps that are proposed as part of the OPW Scheme are to keep the surface water collection system flowing in times of high tide, when required. Sensible, commonplace solution in schemes nationwide and internationally.

Thanks for the reply. I understand those problems would need to be overcome with what I'm suggesting. The water pumping system described in the dutch system I saw on TV also dealt with large volumes of water at high tide so I'm not sure why this would be any different than the Cork situation.

Markcheese

Unless I'm wrong, the tidal barrier that's been proposed would only be deployed/ put in place for extra high tides and storm surges, so would have a negligible environmental impact, on lough mahon and the eco system in general..
It would be less intrusive than the Quay walls proposal, because all the "heavy engineering" is done away from the city..... But the restoration of the Quay walls, and improvement of the river side needs to be done anyway... So that work/cost and disruption would be there either way..

To be honest, Cork floods.... It always has, once every 5 / 10 years... Most buildings in the high risk areas dont have flood barriers or non return valves on their drainage, city council could impose that cost on building owners by byelaw, and not wait 10 / 15 years..

thomil

Markcheese wrote: »

Unless I'm wrong, the tidal barrier that's been proposed would only be deployed/ put in place for extra high tides and storm surges, so would have a negligible environmental impact, on lough mahon and the eco system in general..
It would be less intrusive than the Quay walls proposal, because all the "heavy engineering" is done away from the city..... But the restoration of the Quay walls, and improvement of the river side needs to be done anyway... So that work/cost and disruption would be there either way..

Unfortunately, you are wrong. SCS may be positioning the tidal barrier as a low-impact Thames Barrier style solution. However, if you look at their plan, they call for a 900 meter long dam to be built right across Lough Mahon, with only a sixty meter navigation channel and a couple of sluice gates. That is a major intrusion into the Lough Mahon ecosystem by any standards. Take a look at the Eider barrage in Germany to get more of an impression of what they are calling for, that project almost completely destroyed the inshore fishing grounds of the Eider estuary, as well as a large area of highly sensitive tidal flats and salt marshes.

Markcheese wrote: »

To be honest, Cork floods.... It always has, once every 5 / 10 years... Most buildings in the high risk areas dont have flood barriers or non return valves on their drainage, city council could impose that cost on building owners by byelaw, and not wait 10 / 15 years..

I agree with you on that one. These types of measures should be forced in independently of any other measures. However, I can already imagine the outrage by the locals if that is put forward by Cork City Council.

You seem to have more experience of flood defenses than most so I'd be curious about your opinion on a suggestion on the Cork flood defense scheme that is planned. Could more of an emphasis be placed on the pumping station aspect of a flood defense in Cork?

Well, back in Germany, when I grew up, we learned about that stuff in elementary school, simply because it affected the life of so many people. A significant number of the pupils at my school came from the "Altes Land", a region that was reclaimed from the Elbe estuary over the centuries, and is completely walled in and kept dry by a system of channels and pumps, so it was more than just academic for us. Also

The general concept of the system is pretty decent. I personally would have preferred a bit more landscaping and creativity regarding the walls in the city center, but apart from that, it will be a more well-rounded solution. What's more, flood defence walls in the city area will not only serve as an effective means of protection against tidal flooding, will also protect the city in case the ESB screws up at Inniscarra, or in case water has to be dumped quickly from the dams to prevent structural damage. Last year's events at the Oroville Dam in California should serve as a powerful reminder that every dam can be overwhelmed.

One thing I'd like to say with regards to the pumping stations. Personally, I'd prefer a system of decentralised pumping stations rather than just one or two large ones. That is the type of setup we have up on the Elbe, and even if one of the pumping stations up there fails during a tidal surge or other flooding scenario, there are enough others to pick up the slack. When it comes to flood defence, redundancy and fall-back plans are vital.

twowheelsonly

thomil wrote: »

From my perspective, it's just the usual anti-everything blowhards, combined with the usual "Cork is de most beauuuuutiful city in de world, like" crowd. Their "alternatives" are pie-in-the-sky stuff that will wreak havoc on the ecosystem of the Lee estuary with negligible benefits, and major drawbacks upstream. Any criticism is shouted down, and if you challenge them on social media, you'll get blocked ASAP. They're not getting any traction that I can see, and rightly so!

You seem to know your stuff so two questions if I may...
Do you know if the current plans include non-return valves on all drains and shores on the city streets ? I haven't seen this answered anywhere else and all the work seems to me to be a nonsense if this issue isn't addressed.
Do you yourself have a vested interest in the current plan or are you just an interested observer ?

thomil

twowheelsonly wrote: »

You seem to know your stuff so two questions if I may...
Do you know if the current plans include non-return valves on all drains and shores on the city streets ? I haven't seen this answered anywhere else and all the work seems to me to be a nonsense if this issue isn't addressed.
Do you yourself have a vested interest in the current plan or are you just an interested observer ?

From what I've seen, Non-return valves are part of the plan, as well as a series of pumping stations to handle any groundwater seeping in.

I certainly do not have any vested interests in the project. I used to live by Christy Ring Bridge, so I would have seen and felt part of the construction work myself, but back in January, I moved out to Ballincollig, so now I'm just more of an interested observer. I do have some background knowledge due to my origin, and that influences my thinking to a certain degree.

bot43

When I saw that this crowds info evening was in "Callanans" they lost all credibility for me. Horrible hipster pub.

the beer revolu

bot43 wrote: »

When I saw that this crowds info evening was in "Callanans" they lost all credibility for me. Horrible hipster pub.

Glad to see you base your reasoning on well founded facts

We're talking about the future of our city and you take sides based on choice of pub and your perception of personal styling!

The most idiotic post on here in a long time.

bot43

the beer revolu wrote: »

Glad to see you base your reasoning on well founded facts

We're talking about the future of our city and you take sides based on choice of pub and your perception of personal styling!

The most idiotic post on here in a long time.

Yerra your opinion on anything here is widely seen as utter tosh so i wont be taking any criticism from you.

FWIW, hosting an info evening for something as important as this in any pub is a very bad look. To have it in a small, crappy little dump like Calnans compounds the bad look.

the beer revolu

I just don't know.
It's so hard to know who to believe about what.

I'm guessing everyone is on whatever side they are on for genuine reasons and everyone wants what they consider to be best for the city. It shouldn't be about sides.

Thomil's posts are very informative but then lots of people make convincing arguments.

I just don't know.
Maybe I should see what fashion sense the other side have and make up my mind that way!

Ludo

bot43 wrote: »

Yerra your opinion on anything here is widely seen as utter tosh so i wont be taking any criticism from you.

Jeez you sound like Donald Trump saying lots of people think and say things that he thinks when in fact they don't.
Speak for yourself when giving your opinion of other posters opinions please.

J82

macraignil wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I understand those problems would need to be overcome with what I'm suggesting. The water pumping system described in the dutch system I saw on TV also dealt with large volumes of water at high tide so I'm not sure why this would be any different than the Cork situation.

I am not familiar with that Dutch pumping system but I would be surprised if they were simply pumping tidal water that was flooding an area? I presume it was water that breached some first line of defence before depending on pumps. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Like I say, the pump stations planned for Cork are to be located on the existing surface water drainage system (or on minor local extensions to the drainage system) to keep that system running while the gravity outfalls are closed due to high tides. If there is no water in the surface water drainage system, the pumps simply won't be required.

Someone else has queried if there would be non-return valves on outfalls. Yes, they are critical! And they are included on all the OPW plans.

macraignil

J82 wrote: »

I am not familiar with that Dutch pumping system but I would be surprised if they were simply pumping tidal water that was flooding an area? I presume it was water that breached some first line of defence before depending on pumps. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Like I say, the pump stations planned for Cork are to be located on the existing surface water drainage system (or on minor local extensions to the drainage system) to keep that system running while the gravity outfalls are closed due to high tides. If there is no water in the surface water drainage system, the pumps simply won't be required.

Thanks for your insight into the Cork plan which I am not very familiar with to be honest. It's a while since I saw the article on the TV about the flood defense in Holland and I think it was Rotterdam they were referring to.

I did a little bit of research on the flood defense in Rotterdam and this linked article seems to best relate to the material in the documentary I saw. The pumping of water to store in reservoirs until the peak flood height has receded is what I recall best from the documentary. They were mainly making the point that purely building walls to keep water out was less successful than having an integrated system that includes facilities for storing water at times of flood. My understanding was that pumping water to the reservoirs was part of the first line of flood defense in their system.

Judes

I work in the area of Morrison's Island and in the evenings the whole area is a no go zone and you would not feel safe walking around there - the graffiti has destroyed the place and businesses in the area are constantly trying to clean it up. Graffiti comes under litter - and therefore, litter wardens will contact businesses about cleaning it up. Seems very unfair that businesses trying to survive in this city have to take this on as well as everything else.

The wino's, pimps - I won't continue - but suffice to say - there is no point going for a mega clean up and regeneration/rejuvenation of this area - if it's not patrolled by Gardaí to ensure that the undesirables who hang out there - don't.

The College of Commerce and the School of Music opposite would have a lot of younger people coming/going and night classes too.

So let's get our streets and quay's patrolled to create a safer environment and entice people back into our city.

Doge

Doge wrote: »

Edit: misquoted thomil!

I don't think its as half as bad as the campaign is making out.


I mean look at the proposal, the barrier isn't half as intrusive as I expected it to be.


.........


Unless you're one foot tall you can still see the river perfectly, its a load of hot air about nothing

that looks like the entire Morrison's island is being raised 2/3 feet.

Judes

Judes wrote: »

I work in the area of Morrison's Island and in the evenings the whole area is a no go zone and you would not feel safe walking around there............

The wino's, pimps - I won't continue - ................

There are no pimps etc down there. Street walkers are a thing of the past except for the odd one now and again.

jackrussel

Augeo wrote: »

There are no pimps etc down there. Street walkers are a thing of the past except for the odd one now and again.

What do you expect a pimp to look like for you to recognise one?

the beer revolu

jackrussel wrote: »

What do you expect a pimp to look like for you to recognise one?

White fur coat and pointy boots, obviously.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

The angled street lights on Patrick St. are an abomination.

jackrussel

jackrussel wrote: »

What do you expect a pimp to look like for you to recognise one?

There's no etc down there (99% of the time) so there can't be any pimps.

Applying your logic how does the person who claims the area is alive with pimps etc spot them?

All that was over a decade ago down there I reckon.

the beer revolu

I thought this thread was about the flood defence plans for Cork City?