Has Sonia got it right about hyperandrogenism?

walshb

Maybe if Caster was running close to the men's times one could get behind this idea....she's not.....she doesn't even own a WR, does she?

I mean, seriously, how many of these women exist? It's negligible...

I don't think it's as easy to say that a female having higher testosterone levels automatically means an advantage. So much other things to consider. She is still a female really, so maybe the higher levels isn't always going to see said female perform better at certain physical disciplines....maybe the mix of female levels and male levels doesn't always give an advantage.

It wouldn't really work in gymnastics, for example.....female would be at a disadvantage me thinks...

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Maybe if Caster was running close to the men's times one could get behind this idea....she's not.....she doesn't even own a WR, does she?

I mean, seriously, how many of these women exist? It's negligible...

I don't think it's as easy to say that a female having higher testosterone levels automatically means an advantage. So much other things to consider. She is still a female really, so maybe the higher levels isn't always going to see said female perform better at certain physical disciplines....maybe the mix of female levels and male levels doesn't always give an advantage.

It wouldn't really work in gymnastics, for example.....female would be at a disadvantage me thinks...

If we are going down this route, should we not look at why most medal winning sprinters are black?

Should we ban extreme tall people from basketball????

We should leave her alone and let her compete as she is, its nature and natural.

RayCun

We don't have championships for black people and different ones for white people.
We don't have basketball leagues for people under 6 foot and people over 6 foot.
But we do have separate competitions for men and women.

simongurnick

average_runner wrote: »

If we are going down this route, should we not look at why most medal winning sprinters are black?

Should we ban extreme tall people from basketball????

We should leave her alone and let her compete as she is, its nature and natural.

I agree with that in the case of Semenya. It's how she was born so forcing her to take medication to reduce a natural phenomenon doesn't seem right to me.
I think the broader concern though, is the potential for males to "identify" as females to get an advantage in winning.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

We don't have championships for black people and different ones for white people.
We don't have basketball leagues for people under 6 foot and people over 6 foot.
But we do have separate competitions for men and women.

And we don't have different comps for women based on their testosterone.

She is a 100% woman, her chromosomes prove that, are you saying otherwise?

If your going to punish her for something that is natural, then we should look at other sports in Athletics where athletes have an advantage, ie sprining.

Seesee

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think it's cheating. It's the way she was born, not something she chose.

But I do think a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect women's sports, and testosterone levels are a good choice because the benefits of higher levels of testosterone are obvious, and there is a large gap between male and female testosterone levels.

Sorry I was referring to transwomen competing in women's support. There's a lot of it going on in US high school athletics and swimming and it's very unfair imho. CAS situation is different I agree.

average_runner

simongurnick wrote: »

I agree with that in the case of Semenya. It's how she was born so forcing her to take medication to reduce a natural phenomenon doesn't seem right to me.
I think the broader concern though, is the potential for males to "identify" as females to get an advantage in winning.

I totally agree, only if your chromosomes are female should you be allow to compete as a female. Maybe a new category needs to be created for males identifying as female.

Nermal

simongurnick wrote: »

It's how she was born so forcing her to take medication to reduce a natural phenomenon doesn't seem right to me.

No-one's forcing her to take medication.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

And we don't have different comps for women based on their testosterone.

She is a 100% woman, her chromosomes prove that, are you saying otherwise?

(not all people are XX or XY)

We both agree that there should be separate competition for men and women.

You think the dividing line should be chromosomes.

But why should that be the dividing line, rather than externally visible genitalia? Or self-declaration? Or testosterone levels?

It would be much simpler if all of those things went together, but they don't. There are going to be some people who meet one criterion and not another.

So, why do we agree that men and women should have separate competition?

Because we agree that unified competition would leave women with no chance. What makes men stronger and faster than women?

It isn't chromosomes.

It isn't externally visible genitalia.

It isn't self-declaration.

It's testosterone.

If we're going to divide sport into two categories, the basis for the division should be something that makes a clear different to performance.

marieholmfan

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yes, they do get an advantage when it comes to running. Tough. Get over it.

Yes and it is so extreme that allowing them to compete makes the sport a joke.

They will have to do something else with their lives and get over it.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

(not all people are XX or XY)

We both agree that there should be separate competition for men and women.

You think the dividing line should be chromosomes.

But why should that be the dividing line, rather than externally visible genitalia? Or self-declaration? Or testosterone levels?

It would be much simpler if all of those things went together, but they don't. There are going to be some people who meet one criterion and not another.

So, why do we agree that men and women should have separate competition?

Because we agree that unified competition would leave women with no chance. What makes men stronger and faster than women?

It isn't chromosomes.

It isn't externally visible genitalia.

It isn't self-declaration.

It's testosterone.

If we're going to divide sport into two categories, the basis for the division should be something that makes a clear different to performance.

What makes black sprinters better than white sprinters? There is clearly an advantage here? Answer is nature and Semenya was designed by nature. So why punish her and not black sprinters ?

Chromosome is the best way, it is what defines the different sex. Now if someone is changing their body outside the way they were born, that's a different scenario and I would side on action there.

simongurnick

Nermal wrote: »

No-one's forcing her to take medication.

I thought the new requirement was that she would have to artificially reduce her testosterone levels before competing again?

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

If we are going down this route, should we not look at why most medal winning sprinters are black?

Should we ban extreme tall people from basketball????

We should leave her alone and let her compete as she is, its nature and natural.

Not with you. Am I saying something that you disagree with?

I am kind of the same page as you. I think leave it alone......

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Not with you. Going down what route?

I am kind of the same page as you. I think leave it alone......

Just let nature be nature.

Nermal

simongurnick wrote: »

I thought the new requirement was that she would have to artificially reduce her testosterone levels before competing again?

If she wants to compete, which no one is forcing her to do.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Just let nature be nature.

Agreed....

Although nature can be quite the subjective term...

Man born, doesn't want to be man, gets a sex change and then competes vs. women.....that's nature as well. Everything in the world is part of nature.

simongurnick

Nermal wrote: »

If she wants to compete, which no one is forcing her to do.

Give it a break. She is an elite athelete, it's her life. Obviously this puts her in a corner and forces her to make a decision.

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Agreed....

Although nature can be quite the subjective term...

Man born, doesn't want to be man, gets a sex change and then competes vs. women.....that's nature as well. Everything in the world is part of nature.

Well to me that is altering nature. Now I have no issue with someone doing that but they can't expect to compete against that sex.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Well to me that is altering nature. Now I have no issue with someone doing that but they can't expect to compete against that sex.

Agreed....

Good point.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

What makes black sprinters better than white sprinters? There is clearly an advantage here? Answer is nature and Semenya was designed by nature. So why punish her and not black sprinters ?

Who is punishing her?

If you want to suggest that sport should be divided into black competitions and white competitions... give me a few days notice so I can move to a different country first, okay? :pac:

But if you were to suggest that, you would have to come up with some way of deciding who fits in which category. Are you going to decide on skin colour? Some genetic marker? Something else?

We have already decided that sport should be divided into men's competition and women's competition. So now we are trying to decide where exactly we draw the line that says you are eligible for one of those competitions.

average_runner wrote: »

Chromosome is the best way, it is what defines the different sex.

You say it is the best way, because you say that is what defines the different sex.

If someone is born with this condition or this condition, they may spend their whole life thinking they are female because to all outward appearance they are.

Life is complicated.

simongurnick wrote: »

I thought the new requirement was that she would have to artificially reduce her testosterone levels before competing again?

Before competing against people with naturally lower testosterone levels.

Candamir

average_runner wrote: »

And we don't have different comps for women based on their testosterone.

She is a 100% woman, her chromosomes prove that, are you saying otherwise?

If your going to punish her for something that is natural, then we should look at other sports in Athletics where athletes have an advantage, ie sprining.

average_runner wrote: »

What makes black sprinters better than white sprinters? There is clearly an advantage here? Answer is nature and Semenya was designed by nature. So why punish her and not black sprinters ?

Chromosome is the best way, it is what defines the different sex. Now if someone is changing their body outside the way they were born, that's a different scenario and I would side on action there.

I think it’s fairly well accepted that she has XY chromosomes, making her ‘chromosomally’ male.

chasingpaper

average_runner wrote: »

What makes black sprinters better than white sprinters? There is clearly an advantage here? Answer is nature and Semenya was designed by nature. So why punish her and not black sprinters ?

Chromosome is the best way, it is what defines the different sex. Now if someone is changing their body outside the way they were born, that's a different scenario and I would side on action there.

"Black" sprinters are not inherently better than white sprinters, some black sprinters are better but look at Matthew Boling's race against his black peers last weekend. Ethiopians are generally black and generally crap at sprinting, it is a lazy analogy, like height in basketball example.

West Africans are over represented in elite sprinting but the differences are minor compared to the differences between sexes. Several non west African men have run 9.9x and loads have run 10.0x. Bolt's world record, is only 3.5% faster than Lemaitre but it is 10.8% faster than Flo Jo's (actual record 10.61).
Apologies for the sprint tangent 😊

It is too easy to say possessing one trait (High T) makes everyone who possesses it better at a xyz activity. But if you take people who are all already have traits required to be elite at a sport like 800m (limb proportions, tendon attachments and characteristics, muscle fibre composition and alignment, aerobic, anaerobic systems, mental traits, etc) and then give one of them a huge boost of testosterone we have an unfairness.

Do we even know for sure what Semenya's chromosomes are? There are lots of rumours but all we know is that her performances are strongly correlated to testosterone, they fell off a cliff when she had to suppress her levels and then came back when that restriction was lifted.

There are also the huge residual benefits of going through male puberty, bone density, muscle mass, limb length, lung capacity as opposed to female puberty which can actually hamper athletic performance. There are calls for longer/lifetime bans for PEDs due to residual benefits, which are miniscule compared the benefits of being born male.

The article below presents these arguments in a balanced way I think.
https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

From Semenya's perspective there is an unfairness with the events chosen for this case, testosterone would be an even bigger factor in throws, and possibly sprints and jumps. It is interesting that the throws and 400/800 are also the events with untouchable female records from the peak of steroid era.

But to preserve female sports there has to be some line drawn and a definition but on who qualifies for female (low testosterone/XX) and everyone else in the male (open division).

Unfortunately for Semenya she is the high-profile test case scenario who gets speculated on while authorities try to figure this all out, but she has benefitted massively by being allowed to compete and win championships and get associated financial gains.

It is also fair that most of competitors in the 800 legitimately feel aggrieved and frustrated at losing out to someone they feel has an unfair advantage.
There is no easy answer in this case as she was allowed to compete as a woman her entire life, do we only draw the line when an intersex athlete gets “too good” then tell them to compete in the male category. Or do we start testing for this at earlier ages which is whole other issue altogether.

I do look forward to seeing an 800 that is not a foregone conclusion though.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Who is punishing her?

If you want to suggest that sport should be divided into black competitions and white competitions... give me a few days notice so I can move to a different country first, okay? :pac:

But if you were to suggest that, you would have to come up with some way of deciding who fits in which category. Are you going to decide on skin colour? Some genetic marker? Something else?

We have already decided that sport should be divided into men's competition and women's competition. So now we are trying to decide where exactly we draw the line that says you are eligible for one of those competitions.



You say it is the best way, because you say that is what defines the different sex.

If someone is born with this condition or this condition, they may spend their whole life thinking they are female because to all outward appearance they are.

Life is complicated.



Before competing against people with naturally lower testosterone levels.

Yes there is a female and male competition, but you and the iaaf are saying semanya can only be consider a woman if she takes a few pills, oh and this only applies under 5k distance. She is consider a woman for distances above that. Its like something from the simpsons.

Nature has made us all a bit different, but basically you are a male or female.

average_runner

chasingpaper wrote: »

"Black" sprinters are not inherently better than white sprinters, some black sprinters are better but look at Matthew Boling's race against his black peers last weekend. Ethiopians are generally black and generally crap at sprinting, it is a lazy analogy, like height in basketball example.

West Africans are over represented in elite sprinting but the differences are minor compared to the differences between sexes. Several non west African men have run 9.9x and loads have run 10.0x. Bolt's world record, is only 3.5% faster than Lemaitre but it is 10.8% faster than Flo Jo's (actual record 10.61).
Apologies for the sprint tangent 😊

It is too easy to say possessing one trait (High T) makes everyone who possesses it better at a xyz activity. But if you take people who are all already have traits required to be elite at a sport like 800m (limb proportions, tendon attachments and characteristics, muscle fibre composition and alignment, aerobic, anaerobic systems, mental traits, etc) and then give one of them a huge boost of testosterone we have an unfairness.

Do we even know for sure what Semenya's chromosomes are? There are lots of rumours but all we know is that her performances are strongly correlated to testosterone, they fell off a cliff when she had to suppress her levels and then came back when that restriction was lifted.

There are also the huge residual benefits of going through male puberty, bone density, muscle mass, limb length, lung capacity as opposed to female puberty which can actually hamper athletic performance. There are calls for longer/lifetime bans for PEDs due to residual benefits, which are miniscule compared the benefits of being born male.

The article below presents these arguments in a balanced way I think.
https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

From Semenya's perspective there is an unfairness with the events chosen for this case, testosterone would be an even bigger factor in throws, and possibly sprints and jumps. It is interesting that the throws and 400/800 are also the events with untouchable female records from the peak of steroid era.

But to preserve female sports there has to be some line drawn and a definition but on who qualifies for female (low testosterone/XX) and everyone else in the male (open division).

Unfortunately for Semenya she is the high-profile test case scenario who gets speculated on while authorities try to figure this all out, but she has benefitted massively by being allowed to compete and win championships and get associated financial gains.

It is also fair that most of competitors in the 800 legitimately feel aggrieved and frustrated at losing out to someone they feel has an unfair advantage.
There is no easy answer in this case as she was allowed to compete as a woman her entire life, do we only draw the line when an intersex athlete gets “too good” then tell them to compete in the male category. Or do we start testing for this at earlier ages which is whole other issue altogether.

I do look forward to seeing an 800 that is not a foregone conclusion though.

Look at olympic medal allocation for 100 and 200 in the last 30 years and give me the percentages.

Let nature be nature and not a pill to decide if she is female or not for specific distances.

Candamir

average_runner wrote: »

Yes there is a female and male competition, but you and the iaaf are saying semanya can only be consider a woman if she takes a few pills, oh and this only applies under 5k distance. She is consider a woman for distances above that. Its like something from the simpsons.

Nature has made us all a bit different, but basically you are a male or female.

I agree that the IAAF decision to only apply the rule to those fistabes us a bit arbitrary- I think it would be fairer to apply it across the board.

How do you define male or female?

TCM

To answer the po question.
A resounding yes.

Fusitive

simongurnick wrote: »

Is Semenya the only example of this? And if there are others, are they all winning at their respective levels in comparison to her success?

No, The Woman who finished second behind Semenya in the Rio Olympics Francine Niyonsaba also a similar benefit and third place Margaret Wambui is long suspected to as well but she hasn't admitted to it and we only know for certain once this season starts under the new rules. Dutee Chand was also hypoandrongenic but she is androgen insensitive so doesn't get any benefits.

For those people who say that Caster Semenya is a female, you are wrong. She is intersex, we no longer need to speculate on this as Semenya and her legal team have admitted she has DSD which means she's has both male and female reproductive organs and charactheristics(I await the attacks on me for saying this like it's something that's unnatural like some posts earlier in this thread but it's not, it's biology and natural occurs and is not something that should be spoken about like it's shameful) The case cannot be spoken about fairly without this information.

To those who are against this restriction on hormone levels, I ask where do you draw the line if you think it's unfair to restrict an intersex athlete from competing in Women's sport? I understand that this case has a clear line for some, is ambiguous for others but I haven't heard any answer on where the line is drawn for those who oppose the restriction on intersex athletes. Do you only recognise gender identification as the marker? Because in some places, no changes are needed to declare as a woman like in Conneticet where two biological males are destroying all the female sprinters in highschool championships. Is this ok As long as they identify as female?

Politics is running riot in these debates when it should be a biological debate. A line has to be drawn somewhere. False equivalences like tall basketball players and black sprinters have no place here, they are not protected sports with a line drawn to give fair competition to females. Anything that puts the integrity of that division of fairness into question has to be looked at otherwise you might as well have an open division where everyone on the biological spectrum is competing against eachother and I think the vast majority of people are against open competition so a line has to exist. For me, a DSD athlete like Semenya crosses that line, I feel bad for her but there is something much greater at stake if it is avoided, the integrigity of women's sport.

TheAnalyst_

Are there enough intersex people to have a seperate tournament? I can imagine the outcry if they were included at the paralympics.

If there are more than two clearly defined genders due to intersex conditions then this should be accounted for when they create gender divisions in sports.

Fusitive

average_runner wrote: »

Yes there is a female and male competition, but you and the iaaf are saying semanya can only be consider a woman if she takes a few pills, oh and this only applies under 5k distance. She is consider a woman for distances above that. Its like something from the simpsons.

Nature has made us all a bit different, but basically you are a male or female.

That last line is so wrong that I don't know where to start with it, it actually does a huge disservice to biology and intersex people. Nature is not as clearly defined as you are making it sound, there is occurrences of intersex organisms in all organisms on this planet, some organisms are only intersex in nature and have no clear divide.

Candamir

walshb wrote: »

Maybe if Caster was running close to the men's times one could get behind this idea....she's not.....she doesn't even own a WR, does she?

I mean, seriously, how many of these women exist? It's negligible...

I don't think it's as easy to say that a female having higher testosterone levels automatically means an advantage. So much other things to consider. She is still a female really, so maybe the higher levels isn't always going to see said female perform better at certain physical disciplines....maybe the mix of female levels and male levels doesn't always give an advantage.

It wouldn't really work in gymnastics, for example.....female would be at a disadvantage me thinks...

Intersex athletes are over represented in elite female athletics by a factor of 140.

All the podium positions in the 800m at the last olympics were intersex.


Hardly negligible.