‘Luas on Wheels’ bus service for Galway

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you like a cup of coffee with that research you'd like me to do for you?

You’re learning!

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

. Bbest thing might be to add another 2 buses on the 403 bus to increase frequency?

That too.

But an express service which went between Parkmore and Eyre Square without stopping at wach and every bus stop would make the service a lot more attractive.

I'm working there at the moment, having been based elsewhere since 2011: theres huge growth in the number of workers catching the bus, but far more is possible.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That too.

But an express service which went between Parkmore and Eyre Square without stopping at wach and every bus stop would make the service a lot more attractive.

I'm working there at the moment, having been based elsewhere since 2011: theres huge growth in the number of workers catching the bus, but far more is possible.

I don't avail of the route myself so I have to ask, is a lot of the customer base for the route not along the route itself. Surely there can't be full buses departing from Eyre Square

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't avail of the route myself so I have to ask, is a lot of the customer base for the route not along the route itself. Surely there can't be full buses departing from Eyre Square

It is at the moment.

But there a lot of people working in Parkmore who live in the city centre or a bit west of the river.

A fast trip to Eyre square would make shared transport a lot more attractive for them. The same way there are express buses to Dublin as well as the multi-stop ones which call to every hole in the hedge.

And the more people who move from independent to shared vehicles, the better use is made of roads and less space is needed for vehicle parking.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't avail of the route myself so I have to ask, is a lot of the customer base for the route not along the route itself. Surely there can't be full buses departing from Eyre Square

There are which is why I am suggesting a mix of express and normal buses. Part of the problem with traffic in Galway is cars on the road and if we had an efficient bus service that didn't take up to 80 minutes to get from Eyre Square to Parkmore then people may start using it. Also, just to add I have often got the bus from Eyre Square and it's been full.

To be honest, I'm still not seeing justification for an express, instead an increase in the frequency and much more infrastructure (bus lanes, priority at lights etc) would provide a better service with a much better return as it would provide infrastructure for the future and could be utilised by multiple routes.

On a side note, do the NTA even allow such a thing as select express buses on a route? I don't think so, but I'm open to correction.

xckjoo

Deleted User wrote: »

There are which is why I am suggesting a mix of express and normal buses. Part of the problem with traffic in Galway is cars on the road and if we had an efficient bus service that didn't take up to 80 minutes to get from Eyre Square to Parkmore then people may start using it. Also, just to add I have often got the bus from Eyre Square and it's been full.

Not being funny, but is that not the whole problem? No matter what mode of transport I use (car, bus, bike, walking), it's always the huge volume of cars that causes the bulk of the delays.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I'm still not seeing justification for an express, instead an increase in the frequency and much more infrastructure (bus lanes, priority at lights etc) would provide a better service with a much better return as it would provide infrastructure for the future and could be utilised by multiple routes.

On a side note, do the NTA even allow such a thing as select express buses on a route? I don't think so, but I'm open to correction.

Why leave the car at home and take the bus if you have to spend an hour getting across town. Express buses would make a world of difference for anyone getting from town to Parkmore and back again. It would finally start to encourage people to leave the car at home as now why would you both. Most morning Eyre Square to Parkmore is over an hour and the trip back in the evening even longer depending on the day.

xckjoo wrote: »

Not being funny, but is that not the whole problem? No matter what mode of transport I use (car, bus, bike, walking), it's always the huge volume of cars that causes the bulk of the delays.

Poorly laid out roads don't help or the abundance of lights and bus stops. There are places where there are bus stops 50 foot from one another.

serfboard

xckjoo wrote: »

No matter what mode of transport I use (car, bus, bike, walking), it's always the huge volume of cars that causes the bulk of the delays.

Traffic is other people. The classic cartoon comes to mind of a traffic jam with every driver thinking "There'd be less traffic if that other person got the bus"!

Deleted User wrote: »

Part of the problem with traffic in Galway is cars on the road and if we had an efficient bus service ... then people may start using it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Express buses would make a world of difference for anyone getting from town to Parkmore and back again. It would finally start to encourage people to leave the car at home

I've underlined two words from your comments - "May" and "Encourage". Transport in Galway will have to be carrot and stick.

We must provide the public transport alternatives - and more of them.

Then we will have to force people out of their cars - by restricting road access for private vehicles.

And we don't even have to look beyond the island or Ireland for examples of what needs to be done. Both Dublin and Cork are restricting road access to private vehicles - and I expect more of this to happen in time.

Meanwhile, check out what Belfast is doing - introducing the BRT "Glider" system - exactly the sort of "Luas on Wheels" that the Taoiseach was talking about.

The services:

Glider services will operate between 5:00 am and 12:00 midnight on weekdays. At the weekend, services will start slightly later in the morning and potentially operate later at night. Services will operate at 7-8 minute intervals throughout the working day. Early morning and late evening services will operate at intervals of around 20 minutes. Services will be tailored to meet times of peak demand such as major sporting or entertainment events.

The vehicles:

The Glider vehicles will be 18 metre articulated buses with a capacity of 105 people. These articulated vehicles provide a greater capacity than that provided by current double deck buses. Articulated vehicles are widely accepted as the vehicle of choice for bus-based rapid transit systems worldwide.

We cannot wait for the Bypass/Outer Ring Road to be built (if it ever is) before we do this. We have to start doing this now.

Otherwise, of course, we can just do nothing, and keep wondering why nothing improves.

Or we can keep calling meetings to discuss a tram service that will never be delivered.

WallyGUFC

Could you go around some of the corners in Galway in an 18m articulated bus? Could put them on only suitable routes I suppose.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I'm still not seeing justification for an express, instead an increase in the frequency and much more infrastructure (bus lanes, priority at lights etc) would provide a better service with a much better return as it would provide infrastructure for the future and could be utilised by multiple routes.

On a side note, do the NTA even allow such a thing as select express buses on a route? I don't think so, but I'm open to correction.

Agree 100% - this is the best solution. I am sure you are correct re NTA, they would consider it a BRAND new route (with a different 4** number if going with an express bus model.)

dok_golf

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Could you go around some of the corners in Galway in an 18m articulated bus? Could put them on only suitable routes I suppose.

the bendy buses can turn a tighter corner than a lot of minibuses. Trouble in Galway is that a lot of corners, most single deckers have to traverse on the wrong side to get round.

Mr_A

A massive step forward for buses in Galway would be the ability to just tap on quickly like on public transport in London or the LUAS etc. Even with a LEAP card boarding city buses is far slower than it should be.

Fitz*

Yeah it takes longer to use the LEAP card than it does to hand over the correct change.



Also agree on the above point about some bus stops being located so close to each other on the same route. I remember once getting the 405 from Eyre Square to Ballybane. There was a good 5 minute delay in Eyre Square before we departed but a passenger on the bus that had no bags etc got off at the first stop in Bohermore/Prospect Hill. Was there really a need to wait 5 mins to go a couple hundred metres up the road?Also, the bus stops less than 30 seconds again later opposite Tonerys.

Similarly on the opposite direction, there is a stop at the top of Bohermore opposite the Topaz, and another one a hundred metres down the road at Cookes Terrace and again opposite Cil Ard another hundred metres down the road.

Just 2 examples of how there is a bit of an overkill with the stops. 3 in quick succession in both directions.

what_traffic

FitzShane wrote: »

Similarly on the opposite direction, there is a stop at the top of Bohermore opposite the Topaz, and another one a hundred metres down the road at Cookes Terrace and again opposite Cil Ard another hundred metres down the road.

Just 2 examples of how there is a bit of an overkill with the stops. 3 in quick succession in both directions.

Thats not bad at all, goto Doughiska if ya really want to see stops that are really close together on the #409 route.

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

Thats not bad at all, goto Doughiska if ya really want to see stops that are really close together on the #409 route.

In fairness, the people who use those stops have sometimes walked for 10-15 minutes from the back of their estates to the bus-stop - I don't think that the number of stops is unreasonable.

I'm going to collect some data about the proportion of journey time spent loading and unloading at intermediate stops on my next few journeys, to give a sense of why an express bus would be a good idea.

I tried to start today, but had to abandon when the tailback from Salthill reached all the way to College Rd (we all got out and walked ... 'twas quicker). But I did observe that most people who got on at Parkmore were still there when the bus got close to town. Most people who got off at intermediate stops also got on at them.

xckjoo

serfboard wrote: »

Traffic is other people. The classic cartoon comes to mind of a traffic jam with every driver thinking "There'd be less traffic if that other person got the bus"!

I guess my point is that no matter how you get around, it's the number of cars on the road that's the biggest factor in delay time. Even walking into town, my biggest delay is waiting to cross the road(s).

serfboard wrote: »

I've underlined two words from your comments - "May" and "Encourage". Transport in Galway will have to be carrot and stick.

We must provide the public transport alternatives - and more of them.

Then we will have to force people out of their cars - by restricting road access for private vehicles.

And we don't even have to look beyond the island or Ireland for examples of what needs to be done. Both Dublin and Cork are restricting road access to private vehicles - and I expect more of this to happen in time.

Meanwhile, check out what Belfast is doing - introducing the BRT "Glider" system - exactly the sort of "Luas on Wheels" that the Taoiseach was talking about.

The services:

The vehicles:

We cannot wait for the Bypass/Outer Ring Road to be built (if it ever is) before we do this. We have to start doing this now.

Otherwise, of course, we can just do nothing, and keep wondering why nothing improves.

Or we can keep calling meetings to discuss a tram service that will never be delivered.

Totally agree. Despite everyone complaining about traffic, it's still faster to drive to work everyday than it is to take the bus. Why would anyone walk passed their car in the morning and wait at a bus stop? People won't change their habits until this changes.

FitzShane wrote: »

Yeah it takes longer to use the LEAP card than it does to hand over the correct change.



Also agree on the above point about some bus stops being located so close to each other on the same route. I remember once getting the 405 from Eyre Square to Ballybane. There was a good 5 minute delay in Eyre Square before we departed but a passenger on the bus that had no bags etc got off at the first stop in Bohermore/Prospect Hill. Was there really a need to wait 5 mins to go a couple hundred metres up the road?Also, the bus stops less than 30 seconds again later opposite Tonerys.

Similarly on the opposite direction, there is a stop at the top of Bohermore opposite the Topaz, and another one a hundred metres down the road at Cookes Terrace and again opposite Cil Ard another hundred metres down the road.

Just 2 examples of how there is a bit of an overkill with the stops. 3 in quick succession in both directions.

I see your point but the bus making stops is still a small component compared to the delays in sitting in traffic. And the bus only makes the stops when someone is getting on or getting off so some people see a need for them.

I do agree about the Leap Card though. Why does it take so long? There's only one fare price in the city so it's not like things have to be calculated or options picked in the system. Don't they have tap-on/tap-off on Dublin Buses?

Mrs OBumble

xckjoo wrote: »

Totally agree. Despite everyone complaining about traffic, it's still faster to drive to work everyday than it is to take the bus. Why would anyone walk passed their car in the morning and wait at a bus stop? People won't change their habits until this changes.

Parking availability and stressfulness is a strong motivator. I know a lot of people who live in Doughiska who wouldn't dream of taking the car into town - sure why would you spend 1/2 an hour finding a park when then you can take the bus, get there faster and not have to worry.

I really don't like "ban them all" approaches: there will always be a small number who need individualised options and whose lives are ruined by a ban. Also, Irish people don't respond well to rules - sticking it to "the man" is practically a national sport. More nuanced approaches are more effective.

xckjoo wrote: »

I see your point but the bus making stops is still a small component compared to the delays in sitting in traffic. And the bus only makes the stops when someone is getting on or getting off so some people see a need for them.

That hasn't been my experience this week, anyways. Time spent stuck in traffic has been minimal, except for College Rd the last couple of afternoons, where all the passengers simply got out and walked into town. Time spent at stops, picking up and setting down, seems quite significant.

xckjoo wrote: »

I do agree about the Leap Card though. Why does it take so long? There's only one fare price in the city so it's not like things have to be calculated or options picked in the system. Don't they have tap-on/tap-off on Dublin Buses?

Dublin Buses don't have tap on/off - that's the Luas. DB have right-side validators, which charge the default maximum adult fare for the route and this works well in combination with fare-capping.

Galway doesn't have either right-side validators or fare-capping. There are multiple types of card use: as well as single fares, the 24 hour, weekly and monthly passes are put on Leap cards, so the card has to be checked for ticket and then the driver has to do a single fare if none are found. Also, there are two fare levels - the over 7.5km one only seems to be applied on route 404, but it does exist.

Nett effect is that Leap is a lot slower than cash, and yes, that includes cash fares where change has to be given: most bus drivers can make change very quickly indeed.

And to top it all off, we don't have middle doors - so eveyrone has to get off before anyone can get on. Makes bus-stops take ages.

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That hasn't been my experience this week, anyways. Time spent stuck in traffic has been minimal, except for College Rd the last couple of afternoons, where all the passengers simply got out and walked into town. Time spent at stops, picking up and setting down, seems quite significant.

Are you not contradicting yourself here? This is a clear indication that you and other bus users are stuck among the car traffic and taking "drastic action" to avoid it.

xckjoo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Parking availability and stressfulness is a strong motivator. I know a lot of people who live in Doughiska who wouldn't dream of taking the car into town - sure why would you spend 1/2 an hour finding a park when then you can take the bus, get there faster and not have to worry.

That's great! Honestly glad to hear there are people like that in the city. Most people I know seem to think they have to drive everywhere. I'm literally talking about a trip that would take them 5min to walk that they take the car for.

I really don't like "ban them all" approaches: there will always be a small number who need individualised options and whose lives are ruined by a ban. Also, Irish people don't respond well to rules - sticking it to "the man" is practically a national sport. More nuanced approaches are more effective.

As someone else said, it'll take a carrot and stick approach. People won't just stop using their cars so there has to be incentives e.g. public transport being the fastest/most convenient way to get around.

That hasn't been my experience this week, anyways. Time spent stuck in traffic has been minimal, except for College Rd the last couple of afternoons, where all the passengers simply got out and walked into town. Time spent at stops, picking up and setting down, seems quite significant.

I'm don't mean the time "stuck in traffic". I'm talking about the cumulative effect of all the cars slowing each other down and just general occupation of space.

Dublin Buses don't have tap on/off - that's the Luas. DB have right-side validators, which charge the default maximum adult fare for the route and this works well in combination with fare-capping.

Galway doesn't have either right-side validators or fare-capping. There are multiple types of card use: as well as single fares, the 24 hour, weekly and monthly passes are put on Leap cards, so the card has to be checked for ticket and then the driver has to do a single fare if none are found. Also, there are two fare levels - the over 7.5km one only seems to be applied on route 404, but it does exist.

Nett effect is that Leap is a lot slower than cash, and yes, that includes cash fares where change has to be given: most bus drivers can make change very quickly indeed.

And to top it all off, we don't have middle doors - so eveyrone has to get off before anyone can get on. Makes bus-stops take ages.

Ah that explains why it is the way it is. It probably wouldn't make much difference in terms of time anyway. Most people still seem to pay in cash.

Mrs OBumble

xckjoo wrote: »

As someone else said, it'll take a carrot and stick approach. People won't just stop using their cars so there has to be incentives e.g. public transport being the fastest/most convenient way to get around.
....

Ah that explains why it is the way it is. It probably wouldn't make much difference in terms of time anyway. Most people still seem to pay in cash.

There's a big difference between carrot+stick vs outright ban. Outright ban just gets up people's noses, begs to be broken, and leaves some people (eg old people, disabled, inner-city residents) seriously disadvantaged.

Among workers in Parkmore, I reckon Leap use has reached 50%. Possibly because there are more foreigners catching the bus - people who have come from outside and actually researched what the options are.

what_traffic wrote: »

Are you not contradicting yourself here? This is a clear indication that you and other bus users are stuck among the car traffic and taking "drastic action" to avoid it.

No. Last week's weather was exceptional. People flocking to Salthill when the sun comes out - just like other one-off things that happens on an irregular basis - is never going to be catered for by public transport. Today, there was no being stuck in traffic anywhere, although the Parkmore Rd was slow moving -- and I forgot to record how long we took doing pickups and set-downs :-(

Idbatterim

If there was an electric bus, it would be so much better than a loud, vibrating, stinking diesel ...

cgcsb

Any sign of the new Salmon weir to Forster street bus corridor? having new vehicles is great but the road space is all that matters really.

serfboard

Idbatterim wrote: »

If there was an electric bus, it would be so much better than a loud, vibrating, stinking diesel ...

Here you go. The Chinese are spending huge amounts developing Electric Buses because their cities are getting choked up with pollution.

McGiver

serfboard wrote: »

Here you go. The Chinese are spending huge amounts developing Electric Buses because their cities are getting choked up with pollution.

Not only stinking, the diesel exhaust you can smell is carcinogenic. I wonder why no one in Ireland didn't consider LPG, LNG or electric buses. It's a no-brainer.

McGiver

Mr_A wrote: »

A massive step forward for buses in Galway would be the ability to just tap on quickly like on public transport in London or the LUAS etc. Even with a LEAP card boarding city buses is far slower than it should be.

Concur.

A few heretical ideas (in Irish context) from a continental European.

1.How about banning cash altogether? Of course emergency cash allowed but with a surcharge. Pretty much a standard in European public transport systems.

2. How about three doors on the bus instead of just one? Idem.

Mrs OBumble

McGiver wrote: »

1.How about banning cash altogether? Of course emergency cash allowed but with a surcharge. Pretty much a standard in European public transport systems.

Right now, the fastest way to board a bus in Galway is with a monthly or annual TaxSaver ticket: these are manual, the driver just has to glance at them.

Second fastest is cash. Yes, even when the driver has to give change.

Slowest, by a long shot, are Leap cards. We would not want to make the city Leap only until this changes.

There is already a substantial penalty for paying with cash rather than Leap (eg adult journey is 1.61 on Leap, or 2.30 with cash), but lots of people still pay with cash.

4068ac1elhodqr

This bus sounds much like the new ones set to arrive for Translink this Sept.

http://www.translink.co.uk/also-on-our-site/Glider/

Look a bit space-age, Rapid-Transport system, but essentially just a hybrid low-emission/noise, 18 metre bendy bus. 105 capacity! USB & Wifi.

flazio

Now that actually does look like the result of a tram and a bus cross breeding

jogdish

Re the Leap card being slow, which it is.

Is it just, old buses using old tech? or we invested some cheapo system?