'Free tolls' for electric vehicles?

KCross

Not an excuse at all, just a reality check.

If we hit our EV targets we still won’t meet emissions targets overall so we will still be paying a very large part of that EU fine so throwing that out as a reason is a bit misleading.

Increasing costs for ICE is the way to fund it but we don’t have enough choice in EVs yet for a mass shift to EV unless you want everyone in small hatchbacks (leaf and Zoe) as Ioniq can’t be got in numbers and everything else is >€30k

Funding Tesla’s just won’t fly in this country with homelessness and trolley issues. You need to be realistic.

I presume you are not denying that Norway has billions to play with and that is the main reason why they are leading the way. Expecting us to match that is naive, imo.

You can buy a €26k Leaf today with the €10k subsidy that is there. Why aren’t they being bought in there 1000s?

Free tolls isn’t the tipping point. It’s range and choice and infrastructure.

liamog

We're not even achieving conversions on the direct model comparison within manufacturers.

Pulsar vs Leaf is 1025:257 for €6,000 more
Clio vs Zoe is 1736:57 for €7,500 more
I30 vs Ioniq is 1646:231 for €8,750 more

Now I'll be the first to point out that those comparisons are not 100% due to spec differences, but I think it illustrates that where a comparable model is available we still aren't doing enough.
That's 4,400 cars that could of potentially switched easily.
Just switching the cars in Dublin, Kildare, and Meath would be 2,275 extra EVs on the road, add Cork, and Limerick we get to 3,250.

It would go along way to making public infrastructure sustainable, and give many more people exposure to EVs.

I think the incentives need to bring the price to equal over 3 years. We're close, but not quite there.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

We're not even achieving conversions on the direct model comparison within manufacturers.

Pulsar vs Leaf is 1025:257 for €6,000 more
Clio vs Zoe is 1736:57 for €7,500 more
I30 vs Ioniq is 1646:231 for €8,750 more

Now I'll be the first to point out that those comparisons are not 100% due to spec differences, but I think it illustrates that where a comparable model is available we still aren't doing enough.
That's 4,400 cars that could of potentially switched easily.
Just switching the cars in Dublin, Kildare, and Meath would be 2,275 extra EVs on the road, add Cork, and Limerick we get to 3,250.

It would go along way to making public infrastructure sustainable, and give many more people exposure to EVs.

I think the incentives need to bring the price to equal over 3 years. We're close, but not quite there.

There's the problem, still too expensive.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

The zero emissions incentives include:

No purchase/import taxes (1990)
Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
Low annual road tax (1996)
No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
Free municipal parking (1999)
Access to bus lanes (2005)
50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
Zero annual road tax (2018)
40% reduced company car tax (2018)
50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)

Also, Norway has pretty stiff import taxes for ICE. I did a quick calculation and for BMW 118i petrol with CO2 emissions of 112 g/km and NOx emissions of 27 mg/km the import tax is about 15k with assumption that the car costs 30k to buy.

Compare that to a BEVs which doesn't pay any taxes including the VAT which makes BEVs actually way cheaper than ICEs. The difference is even more marked if you compare price of a Tesla and say M5 as the registration tax is based on CO2, NOx, and engine power.

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

That's an apologist excuse.

From 2020 we're paying €450,000,000 for missing our targets, I'd rather we spent money now, zeroing tolls and motor tax for three years would be relatively cheap.
If you really want to fund the change on a cost neutral basis, then increase VRT alongside it for new ICE vehicles and used Imports.
I believe SIMI aren't letting that kind of change happen.

We can't keep asking why the incentives don't work, when they are effectively hobbled.

Sticking a few electric cars on the road is not going to hit our targets.

We require a massive change in everything....

Really if you want to hit targets, remove all cars from road and put everyone on a bus/train/bike

Also you cannot take a huge hole out of a sinlge budget. That's not how it works. Especially when we already have a gigantic hole owed from previous years. You can only work in the budget you have, work in small incentives

From a government point of view it would be political suicide at the moment to push up diesel prices to stupid levels while the whole country is currently run on diesel. Small incentives to make change, then once the car manufacturers have a decent array of electric car then put the nail into diesel/petrol

Today if I walk into a garage to buy electric car what option do I have? a leaf 2 is about it...maybe an i3....nothing else is in stock

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

The zero emissions incentives include:

No purchase/import taxes (1990)
Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
Low annual road tax (1996)
No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
Free municipal parking (1999)
Access to bus lanes (2005)
50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
Zero annual road tax (2018)
40% reduced company car tax (2018)
50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)

Ireland is not Norway.....

Buy a pint in Norway and you will know all about it....

From website
Cost of living in Norway is 33.76% higher than in Ireland

Grant having a cheap electric car but you can't put food onto the table for your family

bk

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Grant having a cheap electric car but you can't put food onto the table for your family

In fairness, wages are also much higher then here, unemployment levels are very low and their social safety net is very strong. So no one struggles to put food on the table there!

Food is more expensive then here, but not that much. The price of alcohol there shouldn't be used as an indicator, it is very heavily taxed and it's sale controlled.

I've a lot of friends from Norway and go there frequently for hiking. Great country, lovely people and few struggling to put food on the table!

Shefwedfan

bk wrote: »

In fairness, wages are also much higher then here, unemployment levels are very low and their social safety net is very strong. So no one struggles to put food on the table there!

Food is more expensive then here, but not that much. The price of alcohol there shouldn't be used as an indicator, it is very heavily taxed and it's sale controlled.

I've a lot of friends from Norway and go there frequently for hiking. Great country, lovely people and few struggling to put food on the table!

My point is we are not Norway. Constant posts about Norway are irrelvant.

They have oil money, We don't.

Norway don't have massive debt to pay back to dodgy europe. We do.

The amount of incentives in place is about rigt in my eyes....well if the Port tunnel was half price in rush hour then I would be happy

Trasna1

They must be afraid that reducing the tolls would lead to massive congestion. If it was free unlimited tolls, commuters would change enmass from ICE and public transportation as an EV would be cost competitive for those users for commuters. It's obvious this is the reason when they offer rates for peak and off peak.

There is nothing headline grabbing about the initiative so it really will work as a nice bonus for those that have an EV. It will be seen as an added bonus, not a reason to change so I doubt it will be very effective at increasing EV numbers.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

massive debt to pay back to dodgy europe as their property developers didn't get greedy

FYP there. Why does Europe get blamed because we were greedy here?

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My point is we are not Norway. Constant posts about Norway are irrelvant.

They have oil money, We don't.

Over 50% of their exports are oil and gas. To be citing Norwegian advances in public initiatives is a bit like citing advances in gulf states.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

I know that’s impressive but they have effectively an endless supply of black gold up there paying for all that. We can’t expect to match that.


With all the issues this country has, EV incentives have to be measured and limited and tbf we have significant incentives already anyway.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My point is we are not Norway. Constant posts about Norway are irrelvant.

They have oil money, We don't.

Norway don't have massive debt to pay back to dodgy europe. We do.

The amount of incentives in place is about rigt in my eyes....well if the Port tunnel was half price in rush hour then I would be happy

n97 mini wrote: »

Over 50% of their exports are oil and gas. To be citing Norwegian advances in public initiatives is a bit like citing advances in gulf states.

Every second article I read references Norway. Every EV related youtube channel references Norway.

They dont explain where that money comes from....oil.... they can afford to subsidise a Tesla to such a degree that it makes more sense to buy them than an ICE.

We will never be able to do that unless we increase taxes on ICE... and thats a big(impossible) ask from a very weak government.

If Norway lost their oil income in the morning you can be sure that the first thing they would pull to balance their budget would be EV incentives.

Our "EV budget" has gone from €5m to €10m in the last budget. Every extra €m is "robbing" it from somewhere else that needs it as much or more.

The real tipping point for EV's is going to have to happen "naturally" with the current incentives. New, longer range models being delivered in volume and better infrastructure (thats what the extra budget should be for) are required. People will buy then because it makes financial sense.

Free tolls and free motor tax wont push someone from a Tuscon/Qashqai to a Leaf. Niro and Kona should sell in droves if Hyundai and Kia can deliver in volume.... big if.

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

FYP there. Why does Europe get blamed because we were greedy here?

Have to blame someone :p:p:p:p

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Have to blame someone :p:p:p:p

What good did the Romans ever do to us anyway, lol!

unkel

samih wrote: »

What good did the Romans ever do to us anyway, lol!

Give this country its name?

They set foot here, thought it was fookin' freezing and called it winterland (Hibernia), before they hurried back to England

Water John

Launch today at SEAI Show of website encouraging EV use. Anybody got details?

Ewan Hoosarmi

Water John wrote: »

Launch today at SEAI Show of website encouraging EV use. Anybody got details?

It redirects to the SEAI site, the electric vehicles section.

Patser

@kcross long post there.

I'd agree with a lot of what you said, yes the big tipping point will come as better EVs and a wider range come in. That'll be key to the switchover from ICE.

But a simple and relatively cheap measure like cutting tolls keeps EVs in the news as the coming thing. Nothing has yet been done in Ireland the disincentivise diesel beyond saying they'll be banned for sale in 12 years time. But diesel sales are plummeting because people see the writing on the wall, they know diesel is going to be hit soon. Look at how quickly diesel overtook petrol 10 years ago, just to save a few hundred a year on motor tax.

So every little hint that EVs will be cheaper, oh and that diesel will soon be hammered filters into the publics consciousness and alters demand.

berocore

KCross wrote: »

Every second article I read references Norway. Every EV related youtube channel references Norway.

They dont explain where that money comes from....oil.... they can afford to subsidise a Tesla to such a degree that it makes more sense to buy them than an ICE.

We will never be able to do that unless we increase taxes on ICE... and thats a big(impossible) ask from a very weak government.

If Norway lost their oil income in the morning you can be sure that the first thing they would pull to balance their budget would be EV incentives.

Our "EV budget" has gone from €5m to €10m in the last budget. Every extra €m is "robbing" it from somewhere else that needs it as much or more.

The real tipping point for EV's is going to have to happen "naturally" with the current incentives. New, longer range models being delivered in volume and better infrastructure (thats what the extra budget should be for) are required. People will buy then because it makes financial sense.

Free tolls and free motor tax wont push someone from a Tuscon/Qashqai to a Leaf. Niro and Kona should sell in droves if Hyundai and Kia can deliver in volume.... big if.

Very well said KCross

KCross

Patser wrote: »

But a simple and relatively cheap measure like cutting tolls keeps EVs in the news as the coming thing. Nothing has yet been done in Ireland the disincentivise diesel beyond saying they'll be banned for sale in 12 years time. But diesel sales are plummeting because people see the writing on the wall, they know diesel is going to be hit soon. Look at how quickly diesel overtook petrol 10 years ago, just to save a few hundred a year on motor tax.

So every little hint that EVs will be cheaper, oh and that diesel will soon be hammered filters into the publics consciousness and alters demand.

Absolutely.
Even though this new toll incentive is relatively small money it still counts and if you are a regular toll user then its another €500 out of your net salary in your pocket and it gives another round of publicity to EV's. I'm all for it.

It wont help me at all in this case. I dont use tolls regularly. The few times a year that I would use one wouldnt be worth the effort of having to get a tag to save €5!

Patser

KCross wrote: »

Absolutely.
Even though this new toll incentive is relatively small money it still counts and if you are a regular toll user then its another €500 out of your net salary in your pocket and it gives another round of publicity to EV's. I'm all for it.

It wont help me at all in this case. I dont use tolls regularly. The few times a year that I would use one wouldnt be worth the effort of having to get a tag to save €5!

Bingo. A regular daily commuter across m50 (not me, like you I'm a rare tolls user), who treats their car entirety as a tool but knows exactly how far they go every day - suddenly that'd be another big cost saving. Maybe it'll only bring on another few hundred EV users but it was still a talking point on radio and papers today. Perception of EV good goes up.

Also have to say, I've only had i3 just over a month. Lots of questions, lots of interest. People are curious about EVs but no one wants to jump first. Getting a spin in my car is turning around a lot of perceptions - everyone thought EVs were heavy with batteries and slow.

Personally I blame the Green Party - 10" years ago they were already pushing electric cars, at a time when the only 1 available was the G whiz - a truly awful yoke that Top Gear regularly mocked. Perception was electric = ****e.

Now its all Tesla is cool = EVs are future.

Trasna1

Patser wrote: »

@kcross long post there.

I'd agree with a lot of what you said, yes the big tipping point will come as better EVs and a wider range come in. That'll be key to the switchover from ICE.

But a simple and relatively cheap measure like cutting tolls keeps EVs in the news as the coming thing. Nothing has yet been done in Ireland the disincentivise diesel beyond saying they'll be banned for sale in 12 years time. But diesel sales are plummeting because people see the writing on the wall, they know diesel is going to be hit soon. Look at how quickly diesel overtook petrol 10 years ago, just to save a few hundred a year on motor tax.

So every little hint that EVs will be cheaper, oh and that diesel will soon be hammered filters into the publics consciousness and alters demand.

It wasn't just to save a few hundred a year on motor tax - diesel at the time offered virtually the same car/range but with a substantially better fuel economy and lower fuel cost. The change from petrol to diesel was easy because there was essentially no compromise.

Patser

Trasna1 wrote: »

It wasn't just to save a few hundred a year on motor tax - diesel at the time offered virtually the same car/range but with a substantially better fuel economy and lower fuel cost. The change from petrol to diesel was easy because there was essentially no compromise.

Diesels generally cost more to buy, are more expensive to service and their engines weigh a lot more than petrol equivalent (affecting road handling), and that's before we get into DPFs.

But yes cheap fuel and tax.

beauf

bk wrote: »

This bit is fair enough. They don't want any cars in the Port Tunnel at peak times. The PT is supposed to be just for trucks to and from the port and the odd bus/coach.....I agree they shouldn't have watered down the rest.

I use the tunnel often enough. Its generally not busy. The tiny % of EV's would make no difference to it. Most cars will never use it, as the traffic to get to the tunnel from the city center makes it not worth while. Any problem near the port though, and it backs up the tunnel. Which I suppose is really the issue with capacity.

If EV's became so popular to cause a problem on any toll, you could just roll back or remove the discount.

While this initiative is nice, its really not going to have any effect on EV sales. If you were doing the mileage that you were using tolls all the time, the range, charging availability or fuel costs will be the decider for you.

liamog

Should of announced it all free for 1 year, with a review when EV traffic hits 10% of journeys.

ELM327

Actually should not have bothered at all, this is a typical irish fudge.

portsky

Does anyone know when this takes effect? The announcement said early summer.
I am still being charged full cost so I wrote to Easy trip and they said it is not implemented yet, but they did not give me a planned start date.

Shefwedfan

portsky wrote: »

Does anyone know when this takes effect? The announcement said early summer.
I am still being charged full cost so I wrote to Easy trip and they said it is not implemented yet, but they did not give me a planned start date.

EasyTrip is not part of the government....

It will be announced by the government, at the moment I would guess they are trying to work out how to implement it with the relevant companies like EasyTrip etc

ELM327

As it's Ireland and a government measure, the important part (which budget does this come from) probably hasnt been worked out.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

As it's Ireland and a government measure, the important part (which budget does this come from) probably hasnt been worked out.

I would hope they would have worked that out before they even announced it....if not then they really are a shower of f**king idiots....

They would have to announce before going to EasyTrip as it would get out as soon as they mentioned to those external companies

My bets are EasyTrip etc are looking for some sort of admin charge.....they are probably trying to work out what that will be

ELM327

They really are a shower of idiots.

Round Cable

It is fully funded according to Shane Ross.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/toll-charges-to-be-halved-for-electric-cars-36807865.html

ELM327

Round Cable wrote: »

It is fully funded according to Shane Ross.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/toll-charges-to-be-halved-for-electric-cars-36807865.html

1 - doesnt' say who is funding... in all likelihood it will come from the €10million , which has to fund the SEAI grants, the VRT, and the charger grant already, and the charger upgrades


2 - it's not fully funded, it's "halvely funded" :pac:

Patser

But it's such a cheap measure to fund. Even taking the most extreme figures from the Indo article above - which the headline gets wrong.

A commuter doing 2 trips a day across M50, 48 weeks racks up €1000 a year.

Now going to absolute extreme savings of 75%, that's a cost to Govt of €750 year, multiplied by 3,500 electric cars (again from article) = €2,625,000

So if every single EV driver in Ireland spent their time going back and forth over M50 at off peak times to rack up maximum savings, it'll cost the Govt about €2.5 million. In all reality it'll be a fraction of that.

ELM327

But that is rational thought based on sound calculations.
These are government ministers, they don't deal in that.

If it were any of us on here, the calculations would have been done (for free tolls, not this irish fudge solution) months ago and already released. We really do bring a new definition to "half assed" in this country.

Round Cable

Patser wrote: »

Now going to absolute extreme savings of 75%, that's a cost to Govt of €750 year, multiplied by 3,500 electric cars (again from article) = €2,625,000

Plus there is a maximum saving limit for a private owner of €500 per year, so it's even less again.

I don't think this incentive will move many people over to EVs. Nice for those who travel the M50 daily, and that's about it.

ELM327

Round Cable wrote: »

Plus there is a maximum saving limit for a private owner of €500 per year, so it's even less again.

I don't think this incentive will move many people over to EVs. Nice for those who travel the M50 daily, and that's about it.

That's the problem.
Its a nice couple of hundred quid for existing owners.
It's not enough to tip people into EV ownership, If free fuel hasn't worked, 1.05 off the m50 toll isnt going to do it.


Free motor tax, free tolls, free fuel, for a defined period of 5 years would have made people change.


"Cheap" isn't enough of a push/pull in this one, we need "Free".

Round Cable

ELM327 wrote: »

Free motor tax, free tolls, free fuel, for a defined period of 5 years would have made people change.


"Cheap" isn't enough of a push/pull in this one, we need "Free".

Completely agree, it would hardly have been a bank breaker for the government to do this, especially compared with €5k off VRT and €5k SEAI grant per car, that they do offer.

From a marketing point of view, it would have been great for EVs.

unkel

Patser wrote: »

A commuter doing 2 trips a day across M50, 48 weeks racks up €1000 a year.

Now going to absolute extreme savings of 75%, that's a cost to Govt of €750 year, multiplied by 3,500 electric cars (again from article) = €2,625,000

The vast majority of M50 toll commuters do so during peak time, so will only get 50% off. There will also be a slight increase of EV use of the bridge because it is now cheaper. I know myself, going between Lucan and Blanchardstown I sometimes take the back roads, off peak and if I'm in no hurry. It's a nice drive and it saves me the €5 for a return trip. If I got 75% off, I probably would take the M50 all the time though.

Patser

Agreed that it's a minimum saving for most, but as I said earlier in the thread, it is good cheap measure to reinforce the idea that electric is good, ICE (diesel especially) is bad. Just in general conversation I hear people all getting scared off diesel, knowing it's about to be hammered - and sales of diesel are plummeting, even though nothing has actually happened.

If the 2008 tax rate on cars showed us, never underestimate what sort of sea change in ownership can happen just to save a few hundred a year.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

"Cheap" isn't enough of a push/pull in this one, we need "Free".

They can't do free....a electric car is still a car.....

The plan for the transport minister should be to try and get as many people off the roads and into public transport.

I think Shane Ross is a f**king idiot but I have to agree on this.

If he released as free then it would be capped at 500 euro. At reduced you are still capped at 500....it is the same discount and it is for the people that have to use the tolls each day....not the random punter that will start to use the toll roads because it is free.....

If free you will just drive up the usage of the M50, the one road which doesn't need any more cars on it....as Unkel says below he doesn't use M50 but if it was free he would use it.....sorry Unkel but really this is not what the discount should be for.

The discount is to try and remove diesel cars off the road and put electric ones on it instead, a swap....car for car.....not put more cars onto it because people are getting off public transport as they now have free fuel and free tolls......

It makes sense to me, but maybe only me

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They can't do free....a electric car is still a car.....

The plan for the transport minister should be to try and get as many people off the roads and into public transport.

I think Shane Ross is a f**king idiot but I have to agree on this.

If he released as free then it would be capped at 500 euro. At reduced you are still capped at 500....it is the same discount and it is for the people that have to use the tolls each day....not the random punter that will start to use the toll roads because it is free.....

If free you will just drive up the usage of the M50, the one road which doesn't need any more cars on it....as Unkel says below he doesn't use M50 but if it was free he would use it.....sorry Unkel but really this is not what the discount should be for.

The discount is to try and remove diesel cars off the road and put electric ones on it instead, a swap....car for car.....not put more cars onto it because people are getting off public transport as they now have free fuel and free tolls......

It makes sense to me, but maybe only me

There's no public transport from rural meath to south dublin and back.
Nor from rural meath to the naas road and back.
Those are two journeys I make regularly. Public transport works fine for Arthur who needs to take a taxi from daddys house in south dublin to his friend in the posh part of tallaght. It doesn't work for the rest of Ireland. And it doesn't work well for those of dublin not going through An Lár in Dublin either.
Public transport is not the answer.


Free or discounted, they could still have put a limit on it. EG it's only free if you have the approved tag, just being an EV isnt enough.

Re Unkle (and the others like him)... the original design of the m50 was as an orbital route. You could argue that Unkles journey should ahve been on the m50 and not the backroads. The M50 is no longer fit for purpose/

Shefwedfan

Maybe to explain better, let get 3 examples

A. Joe has to commute to work in car as no bus route, uses M50 twice daily. Has old diesel car but looking to swap. Distance is 80km return. Spends €1000 per year on toll. Circa 1000 on fuel.
B. Pat also commutes, has optional bus/train but takes car. Doesn't use toll road due to cost
C. Helen takes the bus to work each day, doesn't like it but cost of fuel/tolls is too much

Toll incentive is only in place for A. Joe buys electric car and his TCO is helped by reducing his tolls by 500 euro along with the reduction in fuel costs.

B & C could potentially start to use toll roads if "free". So more cars on the road, that would be a disaster.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

There's no public transport from rural meath to south dublin and back.
Nor from rural meath to the naas road and back.
Those are two journeys I make regularly. Public transport works fine for Arthur who needs to take a taxi from daddys house in south dublin to his friend in the posh part of tallaght. It doesn't work for the rest of Ireland. And it doesn't work well for those of dublin not going through An Lár in Dublin either.
Public transport is not the answer.


Free or discounted, they could still have put a limit on it. EG it's only free if you have the approved tag, just being an EV isnt enough.

Re Unkle (and the others like him)... the original design of the m50 was as an orbital route. You could argue that Unkles journey should ahve been on the m50 and not the backroads. The M50 is no longer fit for purpose/

What do you classify as rural Meath out of interest?

Not trying to be smart but you are not the target for this incentive, you are a small minority and the government need large scale transition to electric cars.

The people living in Dublin and the surrounds areas(Blanchardstown, Finglas, Swords etc etc)

The M50 is fit for purpose.........if you could get some of the cars off it

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Maybe to explain better, let get 3 examples

A. Joe has to commute to work in car as no bus route, uses M50 twice daily. Has old diesel car but looking to swap. Distance is 80km return. Spends €1000 per year on toll. Circa 1000 on fuel.
B. Pat also commutes, has optional bus/train but takes car. Doesn't use toll road due to cost
C. Helen takes the bus to work each day, doesn't like it but cost of fuel/tolls is too much

Toll incentive is only in place for A. Joe buys electric car and his TCO is helped by reducing his tolls by 500 euro along with the reduction in fuel costs.

B & C could potentially start to use toll roads if "free". So more cars on the road, that would be a disaster.

The question which is yet to be answered (I suppose - no is the answer) is is a 50% discount going to be enough for A to tip the balance. If free fuel hasn't worked, why would 50% off tolls work?


It may push B and C, but I would suggest that the number of people who have viable public transport options do not take them for other factors. People are willing to pay not to take public transport as it's overpriced, unreliable, and doesn't go where they are going.
A man over the age of 30 who has to take public transport is a failure. I don't normally agree with Thatcher but she wasn't wrong.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

There's no public transport from rural meath to south dublin and back.
Nor from rural meath to the naas road and back.
Those are two journeys I make regularly. Public transport works fine for Arthur who needs to take a taxi from daddys house in south dublin to his friend in the posh part of tallaght. It doesn't work for the rest of Ireland. And it doesn't work well for those of dublin not going through An Lár in Dublin either.
Public transport is not the answer.


Free or discounted, they could still have put a limit on it. EG it's only free if you have the approved tag, just being an EV isnt enough.

Re Unkle (and the others like him)... the original design of the m50 was as an orbital route. You could argue that Unkles journey should ahve been on the m50 and not the backroads. The M50 is no longer fit for purpose/

P.S. A taxi is not public transport. It is just another car

Also when did Tallaght get a posh part? news to me:p

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What do you classify as rural Meath out of interest?

Not trying to be smart but you are not the target for this incentive, you are a small minority and the government need large scale transition to electric cars.

The people living in Dublin and the surrounds areas(Blanchardstown, Finglas, Swords etc etc)

The M50 is fit for purpose.........if you could get some of the cars off it

Rural meath is an area where there is no bus stop. Navan Town is well served by an unreliable NX service. Which takes 2-3 times as long as a car to get to dublin.


If I'm not the target for this incentive (daily toll road user) then who is?
My neighbour who has a fossil car, is he not a target if he does the same trip?


I know you're not trying to be smart. Anyone proposing an orbital toll road discount as an incentive for those living and working within the orbital toll has no risk of that.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

P.S. A taxi is not public transport. It is just another car

Also when did Tallaght get a posh part? news to me:p

A taxi is public transport.
The key is in the name (PSV).


Tallaght doesn't have a posh part. But I have to associate with a lot of D4/D6 heads in my line of work (reek of doddy's money etc) and they come up with this tripe to justify visiting the world outside of dublin 6 west

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

The question which is yet to be answered (I suppose - no is the answer) is is a 50% discount going to be enough for A to tip the balance. If free fuel hasn't worked, why would 50% off tolls work?


It may push B and C, but I would suggest that the number of people who have viable public transport options do not take them for other factors. People are willing to pay not to take public transport as it's overpriced, unreliable, and doesn't go where they are going.
A man over the age of 30 who has to take public transport is a failure. I don't normally agree with Thatcher but she wasn't wrong.

The free fuel is a joke to be honest. Nobody in their right mind would swap to an electric car based on that joke of a system.

The current "free" charging system is actually holding back the adoption of electric cars for the majority of people. Why would you buy a car and then sit at a public system with cars abondoned at it....not working....or someone who lives 2 mins up the road filling up car because it is "free"....

Should have been dumped years ago.....

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The free fuel is a joke to be honest. Nobody in their right mind would swap to an electric car based on that joke of a system.

The current "free" charging system is actually holding back the adoption of electric cars for the majority of people. Why would you buy a car and then sit at a public system with cars abondoned at it....not working....or someone who lives 2 mins up the road filling up car because it is "free"....

Should have been dumped years ago.....

Sorry, to clarify, I mean the "nearly free" 6c/kWh not the public network