Cork developments

lostinsuperfunk

I agree that it seems to be near-impossible to build any medium-rise, let alone high-rise, buildings outside the city centre. The opposition to the student apartments at the Lough cites that they are 'high rise', but they are only four storeys high! But we need this type of development, the high rises in the city centre won't be sufficient.

fash

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is that by the bottom of John st where it meets Cathedral Walk?

No - this site is lower John street - the lane along the back wall of the Heineken site.
Here is the planning application for a 4 storey block of apartments: http://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/1737535/0
Close to the traveler rights centre.

lostinsuperfunk

lostinsuperfunk wrote: »

I agree that it seems to be near-impossible to build any medium-rise, let alone high-rise, buildings outside the city centre. The opposition to the student apartments at the Lough cites that they are 'high rise', but they are only four storeys high! But we need this type of development, the high rises in the city centre won't be sufficient.

While they are necessary of course there will be objections to such development.
People have been living in those semi-d's for all their life and all of a sudden there will be a massive (to them) apartment block appearing in what was a leafy suburb.

I do think that there are easier battles to fight, when placing these developments, mind. The Lough was always going to be contentious

Markcheese

Weirdly there's a good few rural crossroad villages with apartment buildings (or sites with appartment planning), while no one builds appartments in towns or urban areas..https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/site-at-cois-na-curra-lisgoold-midleton-cork/4337362
Versus new houses being built in Midleton Town (near a train) which are 2 storey...

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

Weirdly there's a good few rural crossroad villages with apartment buildings (or sites with appartment planning), while no one builds appartments in towns or urban areas..https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/site-at-cois-na-curra-lisgoold-midleton-cork/4337362
Versus new houses being built in Midleton Town (near a train) which are 2 storey...

Watergrasshill has this on the cross, off the motorway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.010569,-8.3455391,3a,75y,84.99h,89.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szAd2QhqSI5xcsRC3dVPq4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

To me this one is an eyesore, it's just pug ugly and looks really out of place.
Now if they had made some effort in the external design, maybe it would not be such a distraction.

Plenty of greenfield sites all around to build, and still be in 2-3 minute walking distance to the village to put proper apartment buildings

Markcheese

To be fair if someone was building a 4 to 6 storey building next to my house, either over looking it or blocking "my" light I'd be less than thrilled...

opus

Deleted User wrote: »

Watergrasshill has this on the cross, off the motorway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.010569,-8.3455391,3a,75y,84.99h,89.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szAd2QhqSI5xcsRC3dVPq4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

To me this one is an eyesore, it's just pug ugly and looks really out of place.
Now if they had made some effort in the external design, maybe it would not be such a distraction.

Plenty of greenfield sites all around to build, and still be in 2-3 minute walking distance to the village to put proper apartment buildings

I've looked at that more than once & always meant to check out what it was, is it apartments? Agree it does look out of place but I don't mind its look personally.

opus

opus wrote: »

I've looked at that more than once & always meant to check out what it was, is it apartments? Agree it does look out of place but I don't mind its look personally.

It's not ugly in an urban setting. In a sleepy enough village centre??
Aesthetics will be influenced by setting.

Yeah, I thought that they were putting in office space or small business units when they were building but looks to just be apartments. I'll double check later this evening, when I am jogging past.
The reason it's also relevant to this city thread is that these were built to access the motorway. Anyone living here is probably working in the city and commuting in.
If we are going to have apartments (even small developments like this) start up in the northern commuter villages it puts more pressure on the requirement for the NRR.

who_me

lostinsuperfunk wrote: »

I agree that it seems to be near-impossible to build any medium-rise, let alone high-rise, buildings outside the city centre. The opposition to the student apartments at the Lough cites that they are 'high rise', but they are only four storeys high! But we need this type of development, the high rises in the city centre won't be sufficient.

I still think the Lough development could have had a much easier time if they added a more interesting (non-flat) roof - they could arguably have added another floor (attic/dormer) and still gone through easier.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not ugly in an urban setting. In a sleepy enough village centre??
Aesthetics will be influenced by setting.

Yeah, I thought that they were putting in office space or small business units when they were building but looks to just be apartments. I'll double check later this evening, when I am jogging past.
The reason it's also relevant to this city thread is that these were built to access the motorway. Anyone living here is probably working in the city and commuting in.
If we are going to have apartments (even small developments like this) start up in the northern commuter villages it puts more pressure on the requirement for the NRR.

It's apartments.
A fine example of awful, out-of-place architecture.
I had thought they were going to be offices.

"Orla

Dublin based article but gives some insights into the actual height of low-rise cities and, from my perspective, at least someone is thinking that we need to be planning the ancillary support infrastructures, of going up. Because I don't think that anyone in Cork planning has given a thought to schools (or hospital capacity for that matter)

"Orla wrote:

If we were to decide tomorrow that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower on it, the knock-on effect would be enormous. We would see land values skyrocket in those locations. We would see developers in a long process of looking for approval and finance… [And] if you suddenly put 1,000 families in one building, where do their children go to school? That may not have been planned for.

*Emphasis mine*

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-2029-podcast-high-rise-skyline-4706384-Jul2019/

j8wk2feszrnpao

Quote: "Orla
If we were to decide tomorrow that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower on it, the knock-on effect would be enormous. We would see land values skyrocket in those locations. We would see developers in a long process of looking for approval and finance… [And] if you suddenly put 1,000 families in one building, where do their children go to school? That may not have been planned for.

What a total sensationalist.
Who is claiming to utilize every vacant site for high rise?
A 1000 families? The Elysian has about 200 apartments, and they wouldn’t all be families. So what size structures is she talking about?

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Quote: "Orla
If we were to decide tomorrow that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower on it, the knock-on effect would be enormous. We would see land values skyrocket in those locations. We would see developers in a long process of looking for approval and finance… [And] if you suddenly put 1,000 families in one building, where do their children go to school? That may not have been planned for.

What a total sensationalist.
Who is claiming to utilize every vacant site for high rise?
A 1000 families? The Elysian has about 200 apartments, and they wouldn’t all be families. So what size structures is she talking about?

I don't think that she's saying every site must be. She is saying that you could zone everything as high rise and nothing would happen for a long time.

The Elysian is quite small, to be frank.
Double that height and even if you end up with 300 kids in the building, where do they go to school locally (without needing cars, the whole point of city living)

hans aus dtschl

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Quote: "Orla
If we were to decide tomorrow that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower on it, the knock-on effect would be enormous. We would see land values skyrocket in those locations. We would see developers in a long process of looking for approval and finance… [And] if you suddenly put 1,000 families in one building, where do their children go to school? That may not have been planned for.

What a total sensationalist.
Who is claiming to utilize every vacant site for high rise?
A 1000 families? The Elysian has about 200 apartments, and they wouldn’t all be families. So what size structures is she talking about?

I think the general point is reasonable though. Within a few km of me right now, there's one primary school in a hotel and another in an office block. Both in the middle of nowhere, relative to their nearest village.

j8wk2feszrnpao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think that she's saying every site must be.

Nobody is saying it must be. It’s a total red herring to suggest it.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Elysian is quite small, to be frank.
Double that height and even if you end up with 300 kids in the building, where do they go to school locally (without needing cars, the whole point of city living)

The Elysian is our 2nd tallest building, so at the moment, far from quite small.
She suggested 1000 families, not 300 kids.
It was total hyperbole on her part, not fitting of someone who is advising on developments (which of course discussions on schools are entirely valid).

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Nobody is saying it must be. It’s a total red herring to suggest it.

What are you talking about? She is showing that it is a tanker turning effort, no amount of planning/zoning will get high rise built immediately.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The Elysian is our 2nd tallest building, so at the moment, far from quite small.
She suggested 1000 families, not 300 kids.
It was total hyperbole on her part, not fitting of someone who is advising on developments (which of course discussions on schools are entirely valid).

Our 2nd tallest building is still quite short, in high rise terms. Tall relative to 5 storey is not an achievement.
And it is hyperbole but valid to prove a point. You build apartment space (in 2,3,4 building close proximity) for even 500 families, are there schools planned too?
Can hospitals cope?

There is a lot more to high density than public transport is the point, and you are intentionally ignoring that fact. As does most governmental development plans it seems

Roger Hassenforder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a lot more to high density than public transport is the point, and you are intentionally ignoring that fact. As does most governmental development plans it seems

It might "seem" that way, but its not.
Local development plans provide for all aspects of the area, including schools and transport, but elements are delivered by different bodies.

Usually however, resedential developers are able to turn around their development than respective central departments.

Schools should be a function of the relevant local authority, use development contributions to fund the cost.

The adage "build it and they will come" is more often, "we've come, now build it"
Eg:
https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Parents-call-for-progress-on-three-school-campus-in-Carrigtwohill-d2b1bfe0-4531-4dc9-9309-c2c8636a0547-ds
(Not sure how true, but its rumoured to be an old trick of central government to delay committment of funds to capital projects is to fcuk up the planning application)

Roger Hassenforder

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It might "seem" that way, but its not.
Local development plans provide for all aspects of the area, including schools and transport, but elements are delivered by different bodies.

Usually however, resedential developers are able to turn around their development than respective central departments.

Schools should be a function of the relevant local authority, use development contributions to fund the cost.

The adage "build it and they will come" is more often, "we've come, now build it"

And that is the whole point. There is no proof at all that the councils (government) have any plans for city centre schools. When was the last large city based school built, by the state, in Cork?
They will scramble and prefab it, once density has been exceeded.

j8wk2feszrnpao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What are you talking about?

It’s very very simple. Nobody is asking that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower. It’s a ridiculous statement for her to make for her own personal argument. Can’t make that more simple for you.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Our 2nd tallest building is still quite short, in high rise terms.

Yes, but in an Irish context, which is what’s being discussed, it’s not.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it is hyperbole but valid to prove a point.

She’s supposed to be a professional, she shouldn't need a ridiculous hyperbole to make a point.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a lot more to high density than public transport is the point, and you are intentionally ignoring that fact. As does most governmental development plans it seems

Yet you intentionally ignore the fact that I didn’t mention public transport, and did say there may be issues to be addressed with high rise.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It was total hyperbole on her part, not fitting of someone who is advising on developments (which of course discussions on schools are entirely valid[b/]).

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It’s very very simple. Nobody is asking that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower. It’s a ridiculous statement for her to make for her own personal argument. Can’t make that more simple for you.

I'll make it simple for you, she is not proposing that. She is explaining that zoning/planning are not immediate fixes to the requirement and not to expect any movement anytime soon.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yes, but in an Irish context, which is what’s being discussed, it’s not.

It's actually an article about comparing Dublin to European cities. In a European context it is. It's barely high rise.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

She’s supposed to be a professional, she shouldn't need a ridiculous hyperbole to make a point.

How is it ridiculous hyperbole? Is it unfeasible to say that a multi tower development would not have huge amounts of families?
It's plain hyperbole to drive home a point as an example. The number is immaterial, the fact that there are no school places is the point.
Simples, no?

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yet you intentionally ignore the fact that I didn’t mention public transport, and did say there may be issues to be addressed with high rise.

Again you completely miss the point of a comment, mine this time. This has to be intentional for the sake of argument.

j8wk2feszrnpao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'll make it simple for you, she is not proposing that.

I didn’t say she was. She suggested others were.
How are you continuing to spin this into words that I’m not using. Ignore list time when someone has to repeatedly make stuff up.

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I didn’t say she was. She suggested others were.
How are you continuing to spin this into words that I’m not using. Ignore list time when someone has to repeatedly make stuff up.

These are her words
"If we were to decide tomorrow that every vacant site in Dublin could have a high-rise vacant tower on it, the knock-on effect would be enormous. We would see land values skyrocket in those locations. We would see developers in a long process of looking for approval and finance…"

Where is she suggesting this here?
She is simply stating that no matter what we do now, there is a massive delay to any build.

Roger Hassenforder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And that is the whole point. There is no proof at all that the councils (government) have any plans for city centre schools. When was the last large city based school built, by the state, in Cork?
They will scramble and prefab it, once density has been exceeded.

You'd have to read the Cork Development plan, and correlate to potential pupil demand from CSO.
There hasnt been much (family) population growth in the inner city of late. Families want the back garden and trampoline, Ballincollig and Carrigaline etc.. I'd (complete guess) say theres actual capacity in the inner city, pupils is the shortage.


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/north-mon-parents-vow-to-chain-themselves-to-school-gates-258618.html

Roger Hassenforder

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You'd have to read the Cork Development plan, and correlate to potential pupil demand from CSO.
There hasnt been much (family) population growth in the inner city of late. Families want the back garden and trampoline, Ballincollig and Carrigaline etc.. I'd (complete guess) say theres actual capacity in the inner city, pupils is the shortage.


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/north-mon-parents-vow-to-chain-themselves-to-school-gates-258618.html

OK do me one favour, because I know that I would get it wrong.
List the non fee paying schools in the city centre (even immediate surrounds), even a rough guess. I say non fee paying as private schools like Pres are oversubscribed and not really open to local needs anyway

Families may WANT the trampoline but, from my experience of apartment living, families will live where they can afford

opus

Anyone know what's going with the place on Washington St, it's been totally empty as far as I can see for ages now. Used to be a restaurant plus short term let apartments.

Roger Hassenforder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OK do me one favour, because I know that I would get it wrong.
List the non fee paying schools in the city centre (even immediate surrounds), even a rough guess. I say non fee paying as private schools like Pres are oversubscribed and not really open to local needs anyway

Families may WANT the trampoline but, from my experience of apartment living, families will live where they can afford

Ive no idea!
Start with primary though i reckon.

Hence all the commuters from the satellite towns. Apt. living isnt as attractive to irish families as on the continent, unless social housing.

Roger Hassenforder

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ive no idea!
Start with primary though i reckon.

Hence all the commuters from the satellite towns. Apt. living isnt as attractive to irish families as on the continent, unless social housing.

Apartment living is not attractive as, up to now, there has not really been a need for such. We have the one of (perhaps the very) lowest population densities in Europe and very small cities.

It's only recently with 2 parents working and proliferation of cars do we see the choking of our cities, which will push people to higher density (coupled with the crazy lack of house building)

Also, up to now, our apartments have been disgracefully built with extremely light touch regulation and social needs.

I think that there is a primary school in Middle Parish and another on South Douglas Street. Can not think of any more.

ofcork

Didn't realise the apartments in that place on Washington st were empty restaurant gone too?

fonecrusher1

Could potentially be something really nice as its right next to the river. Seems like it would be a lot of hassle for construction though. Extremely busy part of the city center.

lostinsuperfunk

I think there's spare capacity in the schools near the city centre.
Primary: St Joseph's, Educate Together Grattan St, Blarney St, Bunscoil Críost Rí, Greenmount, St Finn Barre's , St Luke's, St Patrick's, St Mary's of the Isle. I know that several of these are under-capacity and there are probably more that I can't think of.

Secondary: Deerpark, St. Al's, Colaiste Daibhead, Educate Together on Wellington Road. A little further out: St Vincent's, North Mon, Gaelcholaiste North Mon, Críost Rí.

The shortage of school capacity is actually further out from the city centre, in the outer suburbs, where all the development is happening.

(I'm undermining a point I made myself earlier in this thread...)