Cork developments

mrpdap

The only way is up!!

David McWilliams: If Cork can’t succeed economically, Ireland will regress
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-if-cork-can-t-succeed-economically-ireland-will-regress-1.4046466

nyck04

mrpdap wrote: »

The only way is up!!

David McWilliams: If Cork can’t succeed economically, Ireland will regress
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-if-cork-can-t-succeed-economically-ireland-will-regress-1.4046466

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Italix

nyck04 wrote: »

This requires subscription.
Anyone care to share with the plebiscite?

Behold plebeians.

If you happen to be a Jackeen relation of a large Cork family, we might get together and form a self-help group. Given the amount of inter-cousin abuse I’ve had to endure over the years, it’s tempting.

Being a semi-detached, arms-length Corkonian comes with its burdens but they are but nothing compared with those carried by the Leesiders themselves, who combine fragile victimhood with muscular self-regard. But putting the inter-city rivalry aside, one thing is clear to me: if Cork doesn’t succeed economically in the years ahead, Ireland will also go backwards.

Cork is the litmus test when it comes to Ireland’s ambition to lift the burden of development from Dublin’s shoulders. If Cork can’t do it, nowhere can. The development of Cork won’t come at the expense of other cities such as Limerick or Galway, but will be complementary, and is vital for spatially balanced growth in the country.

Strolling around Cork, it’s easy to see that the city is well ahead of Dublin in terms of building upwards
In most European countries, cities tend to develop along similar lines. The first city is about twice the size of the second city, the second is about twice the size of the third, and so on. In Ireland, partition put paid to that. If it weren’t for the Border, Dublin would be twice the size of Belfast and Belfast twice the size of Cork and Cork twice the size of Limerick etc.

However, the political division of the island has negated the natural equilibrating effect of Belfast, and Dublin has become overly dominant.

As a result, the State has to work extremely hard to make Cork a meaningful counterbalance to Dublin. It is difficult but not impossible.

The true potential of Cork seems obvious, not just economically, but strategically. Cork could be the Antwerp to Dublin’s Brussels, a first-to-second city relationship like Rotterdam to Amsterdam or Aahrus to Copenhagen.

However, to achieve this requires an intensification of residential development in Cork, involving a significant increase in apartment building, a significant reduction in cars in the centre of the city, many more cycle lanes and an entirely different mindset to city living.

Strolling around Cork, it’s easy to see that the city is well ahead of Dublin in terms of building upwards, with height restrictions much less of an impediment to development. There are other strong foundations in the city.

Population increase
According to the Chamber of Commerce, the city’s population has increased to 210,000 following a boundary review in June 2019. Cork city (much of it suburban rather than urban) and county have a combined population of 542,868.

According to the Ireland 2040 plan, the State wants Cork to become the fastest-growing city in the country. The aim is to expand the city and its immediate suburbs to between 315,000 and 345,000 by 2040. This means generating close to 100,000 new jobs.

At the moment, Cork has one of the youngest populations in the country with 50 per cent under the age of 35. Cork also happens to be more industrial than, for example, Dublin. According to the IDA, the southwest region accounted for 36.2 per cent of Irish industrial output. With a much smaller population than the east of the country, this is quite an achievement.

Cork does not need to emulate Manhattan or Frederiksberg, but to reinvent the core of the city, a significant increase in building is needed
Since 2015, 10,000 new IDA jobs have been created in Cork. In total, 38,000 people are employed by multinationals in the Cork region, bringing the average industrial wage there up above the national average.

Construction is booming in the city, which is evident when you’re walking around. Cork County Council figures show that planning permission is in place for more than 4,600 housing units within the city limits.

However, the opportunity lies in being an alternative location to Dublin in terms of companies’ capital and talent. Rents are a major factor. Office rental rates are half the price of comparable office space in Dublin. According to Daft.ie the average rent in Cork city is €1,366 per sq m, compared with €2,064 in Dublin city centre.

Looking ahead, unlike Dublin Port, Cork Port is in the process of being moved, liberating 220 hectares of docklands potential for development (Tivoli and City Docklands), effectively expanding the city centre footprint by 25 per cent.

One obvious way of doing this is to pick your density and work backwards
But here’s the rub: If Cork wants to achieve its ambition to become a realistic economic counterweight to Dublin, it not only has to catch up, but must also develop more intensely because in terms of scale it is far behind the capital.

This means creating a real, liveable city in about a decade, which implies reinventing what the city looks and feels like. At its core, this demands intensive urban living, something that has eluded Cork over generations.

Could Cork transform itself into a true high-density city? Like other original maritime cities – from Manhattan to Hong Kong to Venice – it is centred on an island. What might a future Corkonian Manhattan look like? The core of the city, the island, is home to 4,141 residents within roughly 1.07 miles squared. This works out as a population density of 3,860 per square mile.

A few weeks ago, I cycled around an old, highly populated district of Copenhagen called Frederiksberg. Built by Emperor Frederik, its is approximately 3.4 square miles, with a population of 103,192 and a density of 30,720 people per square mile.

If Cork island were to achieve Frederiksberg levels of density, the island’s population would swell to 32,952 people – that’s almost eight times greater than its current level. Now that would be a Manhattan of sorts on Ireland’s south coast.

Cork does not need to emulate Manhattan or even Frederiksberg, but to achieve the type of densities required to reinvent the core of the city, a significant increase in building is needed.

One obvious way of doing this, given the population projections and the increases expected, is to pick your density and work backwards. It involves building up accordingly, identifying all the vacant sites and starting to build public transport infrastructure now to cater for the desired densities in a small, but vibrant area.

It also means de-zoning rural and suburban fields earmarked now for housing, to stop sprawl.

These kinds of decisions would allow the city to truly embrace city living. Why not let the “real capital” start setting standards for the rest of the country. The only downside is that it would give limitless bragging rights to my cousins.

namloc1980

All true but nothing will happen. Only for the private sector Cork would see no activity at all. Central government couldn't give a fiddler's about Cork.

snotboogie

His podcast usually follows the topic of his article from the previous week. We should get 30-40 mins on Cork on Tuesday

nyck04

namloc1980 wrote: »

All true but nothing will happen. Only for the private sector Cork would see no activity at all. Central government couldn't give a fiddler's about Cork.

The point he is making is down to the private sector, the city council should allow for significant private accommodation in the core of Cork. Make the city centre a place where you want to live, where you want to be, not a place you go to shop or to work but a place where you live.

Really great article.

Junkyard Tom

But sure what about that artist fella from Dublin who lives in Cobh? It's not fair on him to have Cork power into the 21st Century. And what about all the people who drank in the Sextant once having their sentimentality demolished? Or the people who will have their view of the R&H Hall concrete silos ruined?

As Dr Spock from Star Trek once said [paraphrasing] 'sometimes the needs of a few oddballs outweigh the needs of a City'.

the beer revolu

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

But sure what about that artist fella from Dublin who lives in Cobh? It's not fair on him to have Cork power into the 21st Century. And what about all the people who drank in the Sextant once having their sentimentality demolished? Or the people who will have their view of the R&H Hall concrete silos ruined?

As Dr Spock from Star Trek once said [paraphrasing] 'sometimes the needs of a few oddballs outweigh the needs of a City'.

Or how about you use your intelligence and realise that objections to developments can be valid and for the greater good of the many.
Your kind of thinking is just shouting anyone down without listening to what they may have to say. It is assuming that every objection to any development is made only by anti development crackpots.
We have a history of very, very bad planning in this country yet, if you had your way, there would be no objections to anything, ever.

It's extremely naive to think that developers have any motive other than to make as much money as possible. This is why we have planners and a planning system. Yes, this system can be extremely slow and frustrating and is in need of reform but your narrative suggests that the system should be done away with and developers allowed to do as they wish.

Be careful what you wish for.

vinnie_cork

the beer revolu wrote: »

Or how about you use your intelligence and realise that objections to developments can be valid and for the greater good of the many.
Your kind of thinking is just shouting anyone down without listening to what they may have to say. It is assuming that every objection to any development is made only by anti development crackpots.

When 1st announced re the sextant site people on twitter where giving out that developer already knocked the old railway building and that they wanted people to sign their letter of objection.... they were a kilometer off on their objecting site (was actually Kent station area and Horgans Quay dev they had issues with which had passed planning and ABP planning an mid construction).

Fact sometimes gets in the way of objecting crackpots, if there are valid concerns then fair enough, but 1 person thinking I don't like Glass I want only red brick buildings... that is crackpot that they believe only their taste rules.

TheChizler

vinnie_cork wrote: »

When 1st announced re the sextant site people on twitter where giving out that developer already knocked the old railway building and that they wanted people to sign their letter of objection.... they were a kilometer off on their objecting site (was actually Kent station area and Horgans Quay dev they had issues with which had passed planning and ABP planning an mid construction).

Maybe think for a second that these people don't represent all objectors?

the beer revolu

vinnie_cork wrote: »

When 1st announced re the sextant site people on twitter where giving out that developer already knocked the old railway building and that they wanted people to sign their letter of objection.... they were a kilometer off on their objecting site (was actually Kent station area and Horgans Quay dev they had issues with which had passed planning and ABP planning an mid construction).

Fact sometimes gets in the way of objecting crackpots, if there are valid concerns then fair enough, but 1 person thinking I don't like Glass I want only red brick buildings... that is crackpot that they believe only their taste rules.

I totally accept that there are crack pot objectors out there. I'm not for a moment suggesting that every objection is reasonable or even valid.

What I'm complaining about is this mob mentality where every single objection is, without proper review, chucked into the "crackpot anti development" folder.
It's not very clever.

Personally, I like to see older building preserved and incorporated into new developments (sometimes this is done very well, sometimes not so well). This softens the impact of new developments on our environment. This doesn't mean that development can't happen - it might just mean that it can't happen exactly the way the developer wants it to happen.

Also, I like the R&H Hall buildings. I always have. I know a lot of people who share this view. I accept that most (on here, anyway) disagree with my view but I don't try to undermine their view, shout them down, call them crackpots or lump them in with every every ridiculous loonbag out there.

It's just a difference of opinion on architectural history and merit.

questionmark?

the beer revolu wrote: »

Also, I like the R&H Hall buildings. I always have. I know a lot of people who share this view. I accept that most (on here, anyway) disagree with my view but I don't try to undermine their view, shout them down, call them crackpots or lump them in with every every ridiculous loonbag out there.

It's just a difference of opinion on architectural history and merit.

Out of interest what is it that you like about those buildings?

the beer revolu

questionmark? wrote: »

Out of interest what is it that you like about those buildings?

What does anyone like about any building?

I like their proportions. I like the grey colour. I like their imposing size. I like the nod to the past of a busy working sea port and industrial zone.

A friend of mine did a college project where she proposed developing them into retail and residential. It was beautiful. It just takes a bit of vision and imagination.

snotboogie

the beer revolu wrote: »

What does anyone like about any building?

I like their proportions. I like the grey colour. I like their imposing size. I like the nod to the past of a busy working sea port and industrial zone.

A friend of mine did a college project where she proposed developing them into retail and residential. It was beautiful. It just takes a bit of vision and imagination.

and money, lots of money, which won't ever be invested in Cork. I agree with you on R&H Hall but being realistic nobody will spend the cash required to bring that building up to a modern standard. The choice is either let it rot or knock it and build something new.

the beer revolu

snotboogie wrote: »

and money, lots of money, which won't ever be invested in Cork. I agree with you on R&H Hall but being realistic nobody will spend the cash required to bring that building up to a modern standard. The choice is either let it rot or knock it and build something new.

I don't expect to see it developed.
I'd just like to see it developed.

MrDerp

the beer revolu wrote: »

What does anyone like about any building?

I like their proportions. I like the grey colour. I like their imposing size. I like the nod to the past of a busy working sea port and industrial zone.

A friend of mine did a college project where she proposed developing them into retail and residential. It was beautiful. It just takes a bit of vision and imagination.

I’ve lived near the building for 5 years now, what started as hatred has grown into a begrudging admiration of how brutal it is against the skyline. I look up at it often and think anything that replaces it needs to be equally bold and brutalful

People get used to landmarks, and seeing this daily walking the dog etc has made it feel part of the community I live in.

I really like the plan for the counting houses, and I like what’s happening with Horgan’s Quay and Penrose House. I can’t see a practical way to preserve the R&H hall silo, but I’d like to see some element of heritage retained, perhaps the crane and its tracks on Kennedy Quay, the Odlums facade, and some nod to the former use of the site.

Markcheese

I thought the odlums facade is listed to some extent anyway...
I assume it'd be difficult to do much with the rh Hall building because of what it is,
A massive concrete grain silo, but I do think it looks cool...

Junkyard Tom

the beer revolu wrote: »

your narrative suggests that the system should be done away with and developers allowed to do as they wish.

Absolutely not. We list buildings to protect them from property speculators, some of whom would bulldoze Newgrange if they thought it would turn a profit.

What frustrates me, and others, is frivolous sentimental objection to progress. I mean R&H Hall concrete silos? Seriously? They're about as attractive to the eye as the wreckage of Chernobyl.

There are far too many cranks out there who reflexively object to everything. I was discussing this on twitter with an oddball who was explaining how he'll be proudly objecting to the Port of Cork building because they replaced his local shop with a pharmacy or some other idiotic motive.

Apogee

the beer revolu

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Absolutely not. We list buildings to protect them from property speculators, some of whom would bulldoze Newgrange if they thought it would turn a profit.



There are far too many cranks out there who reflexively object to everything. I was discussing this on twitter with an oddball who was explaining how he'll be proudly objecting to the Port of Cork building because they replaced his local shop with a pharmacy or some other idiotic motive.

All this is completely reasonable.

I mean R&H Hall concrete silos? Seriously? They're about as attractive to the eye as the wreckage of Chernobyl.

And then, off you go again.
Just because someone had a differing opinion to you, they get lumped in with the kranks!!.

Liking or not liking the R&H Hall building is not about being right or wrong, you know.

opus

Apogee wrote: »

Don't want to be seen as a cynic but could an election be in the offing :rolleyes: Maybe it's time for a sod-turning ceremony for the Event Centre!

Rhys Essien

https://twitter.com/meitheala/status/1184834495440211970?s=21

Rhys Essien

Premier Inn will be the hotel on Morrison’s Island.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/10/17/premier-inn-to-open-cork-property/

Nigel Fairservice

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Premier Inn will be the hotel on Morrison’s Island.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/10/17/premier-inn-to-open-cork-property/

I stayed in a few in London, they're decent hotels.

I love how article describes the Events Centre as under construction :pac:

questionmark?

They are generally decent well run affordable hotels. Very recognisable name for UK visitors too.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Premier Inn will be the hotel on Morrison’s Island.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/10/17/premier-inn-to-open-cork-property/

That is fantastic news!

snotboogie

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Premier Inn will be the hotel on Morrison’s Island.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/10/17/premier-inn-to-open-cork-property/

Hopefully this one actually gets built

what the hell!

Wow that’s great news. Always decent hotels to stay in.

Chris_5339762

Excellent. Premier Inn are serious about Ireland. They are always my go-to hotels in the UK. Great chain and far, far better than Travelodge.

marno21

The City Centre to Docklands road improvement scheme has gone to tender

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/155516/1/0

Estimated cost €7m