Cork developments

Mardyke

Can an admin split this thread into a new Ann Doherty Watch thread?

Doherty has nothing to do with development in Cork.

Apogee

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2021/03/10/thursdays-papers-73/

snotboogie

I wonder what they will go with on this planning? Offices have been a struggle, but not a complete failure for OCP and nobody seems to be able to get high value apartment developments to work in Cork. Retail looks dead on its arse everywhere in Ireland. Could they be working with the public sector? Wasn't there talk of a hospital around this site?

Also is there any update on the UCC city centre business school? Seems like a planning application has been pending for years there.

Outkast_IRE

snotboogie wrote: »

I wonder what they will go with on this planning? Offices have been a struggle, but not a complete failure for OCP and nobody seems to be able to get high value apartment developments to work in Cork. Retail looks dead on its arse everywhere in Ireland. Could they be working with the public sector? Wasn't there talk of a hospital around this site?

Also is there any update on the UCC city centre business school? Seems like a planning application has been pending for years there.

You would have to wonder if the likes of UCC which must of spent hundreds of millions on property acquisition and development around the city is now wondering can they not make do with what they have currently if alot of students will be remote , or at least be having a rethink on all developments.

Its different in science and tech research you need the physical space, but for a business school surely alot of it can move online with a small enough high class space for gathering students for certain events.

snotboogie

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

You would have to wonder if the likes of UCC which must of spent hundreds of millions on property acquisition and development around the city is now wondering can they not make do with what they have currently if alot of students will be remote , or at least be having a rethink on all developments.

Its different in science and tech research you need the physical space, but for a business school surely alot of it can move online with a small enough high class space for gathering students for certain events.

Do students want to spend 4 years in front of a laptop in mom and dads house as opposed to on campus? Unlike remote working, I'd imagine the huge majority of students would be against remote study. Maybe there is a hybrid model that will reduce space requirements but I'd imagine UCC and most universities would be against this.

For Cork City itself the city centre business school would be a huge bonus.

Outkast_IRE

snotboogie wrote: »

Do students want to spend 4 years in front of a laptop in mom and dads house as opposed to on campus? Unlike remote working, I'd imagine the huge majority of students would be against remote study. Maybe there is a hybrid model that will reduce space requirements but I'd imagine UCC and most universities would be against this.

For Cork City itself the city centrebusiness school would be a huge bonus.

I don't disagree with you but if universities can get away with enrolling more students in courses that were only physically limited by class size previously they might just do that to earn more in fees.

snotboogie

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I don't disagree with you but if universities can get away with enrolling more students in courses that were only physically limited by class size previously they might just do that to earn more in fees.

The other side of that is that if you are not limited by physical location you are also not limited by geographic competition. If UCC go online they are suddenly competing with every other online University in the world, as opposed to the 5 or 6 Universities in Ireland.

Outkast_IRE

snotboogie wrote: »

The other side of that is that if you are not limited by physical location you are also not limited by geographic competition. If UCC go online they are suddenly competing with every other online University in the world, as opposed to the 5 or 6 Universities in Ireland.

Yeah it's happening right now as we speak UCD is advertising far and wide right now for their online post grad

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

I wonder what they will go with on this planning? Offices have been a struggle, but not a complete failure for OCP and nobody seems to be able to get high value apartment developments to work in Cork. Retail looks dead on its arse everywhere in Ireland. Could they be working with the public sector? Wasn't there talk of a hospital around this site?

Also is there any update on the UCC city centre business school? Seems like a planning application has been pending for years there.

Definitely think anything public would help.

The North docks are easier to start as the train station doesn't just help with commuting but adds a lot of foot-traffic through the area, so it feels more like the city centre than a spot somewhere in the middle of Kennedy Quay. If there was any kind of public investment in the South Docks area, it could help start the ball rolling.

At the moment, Victoria Rd. is a bit of a 'rubicon' in that people will try to cram development anywhere in the city centre rather than move forward with any project East of that road.

mire

snotboogie wrote: »

The other side of that is that if you are not limited by physical location you are also not limited by geographic competition. If UCC go online they are suddenly competing with every other online University in the world, as opposed to the 5 or 6 Universities in Ireland.

UCC afaik have appointed a design team for the CUBS city centre site; this is a funded project so I expect to see movement.

Third level education will not simply go online - although blended learning will be more important - the campus is still very much central to educational experience. UCC apparently expect to require very significant additional floorspace, notwithstanding the effect of increased virtual learning.

chalkitdown1

The GAA are now trying to build a massive car park next to Parc Ui Caoimh where there was supposed to be a playground as part of the Marina Park development.

https://twitter.com/MarinaParkCork/status/1371772554734678017

The fúcking balls on this lot considering they haven't paid what they already owe to the City. And more bloody cars is the last thing that's needed down there.

Car Park is just to the right of the Astroturf pitch.

rounders

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

The GAA are now trying to build a massive car park next to Parc Ui Caoimh where there was supposed to be a playground as part of the Marina Park development.

https://twitter.com/MarinaParkCork/status/1371772554734678017

The fúcking balls on this lot considering they haven't paid what they already owe to the City. And more bloody cars is the last thing that's needed down there.

Car Park is just to the right of the Astroturf pitch.

Right beside the training pitches that were built on public land. It's a complete land grab

Mardyke

That 1970s Soviet lookalike stadium should be slid into the river Lee with the Cork County Board along with it. Absolute shower of scumbags.

the beer revolu

Mardyke wrote: »

That 1970s Soviet lookalike stadium should be slid into the river Lee with the Cork County Board along with it. Absolute shower of scumbags.

I'm no GAA fanboy and I most certainly wouldn't be giving them a carpark but I like the appearance of the new stadium, from both sides.

snotboogie

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm no GAA fanboy and I most certainly wouldn't be giving them a carpark but I like the appearance of the new stadium, from both sides.

The main issue I have is the lack of usage. Seen on SSC somebody said it must have the worst ratio of capacity to overall attendance of any stadium ever opened anywhere in the world, I'd say they're not far wrong. Has it ever actually been filled aside from the maybe 3 times total there has been a concert there?

the beer revolu

snotboogie wrote: »

The main issue I have is the lack of usage. Seen on SSC somebody said it must have the worst ratio of capacity to overall attendance of any stadium ever opened anywhere in the world, I'd say they're not far wrong. Has it ever actually been filled aside from the maybe 3 times total there has been a concert there?

Fair enough.
I was just defending the aesthetics of it.

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

The main issue I have is the lack of usage. Seen on SSC somebody said it must have the worst ratio of capacity to overall attendance of any stadium ever opened anywhere in the world, I'd say they're not far wrong. Has it ever actually been filled aside from the maybe 3 times total there has been a concert there?

A fair point. But at some point we have to break the cycle of:

"What's the point in building a stadium, there are no events to fill it??"

and

"Can't bring events to the city, as we don't have the venue for it??"

Well, now there is a fantastic venue in the city, ideally rather than lament the fact that it was built; we could look to exploit it.

chalkitdown1

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm no GAA fanboy and I most certainly wouldn't be giving them a carpark but I like the appearance of the new stadium, from both sides.

It's looks alright from one side, that is the south side which at least has some colour, design and thought gone into it.



The other 3 ends are just grey concrete walls. Like something outta North Korea.



Compare it to say, the Aviva Stadium, which has a similar capacity and it's night and day.



One of these looks like they're from the 21 century, the other does not.

who_me

There's no doubting the Aviva is a much more impressive stadium; but I can't imagine anyone would have supported the cost of it (€410m) as opposed the estimated €96m for PuC. It's being called a white-elephant as it is.

snotboogie

who_me wrote: »

A fair point. But at some point we have to break the cycle of:

"What's the point in building a stadium, there are no events to fill it??"

and

"Can't bring events to the city, as we don't have the venue for it??"

Well, now there is a fantastic venue in the city, ideally rather than lament the fact that it was built; we could look to exploit it.

100% agree. We should make use of what we have, I see no signs of that happening though. Plans like stadium tours speak to the incredible delusion of the people behind this.

Two Munster matches a year would sell out and probably double the annual attendance of the stadium. I suppose whether Munster would be open to that is another question. Pre season friendlies for soccer teams across the water, while it wouldn't be my thing, would bring in the crowds too. The Irish rugby team and soccer team have played pre tournament friendlies in Ravenhill and Thomond, those could be chased too. I'd be pretty certain none of this is being looked at though.

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

100% agree. We should make use of what we have, I see no signs of that happening though. Plans like stadium tours speak to the incredible delusion of the people behind this.

Two Munster matches a year would sell out and probably double the annual attendance of the stadium. I suppose whether Munster would be open to that is another question. Pre season friendlies for soccer teams across the water, while it wouldn't be my thing, would bring in the crowds too. The Irish rugby team and soccer team have played pre tournament friendlies in Ravenhill and Thomond, those could be chased too. I'd be pretty certain none of this is being looked at though.

I think there's a huge demand for concerts/entertainment events; and will especially be so once this pandemic ends. That's a massive opportunity.

I'd absolutely love to see Munster games there. Euro knockouts (and maybe regular season derby games) might pull a big crowd; but I think they'll always go for Thomond when they can. And for - say - a Euro semi final it's a choice between the Aviva and PuC, they'd go for whatever makes the most money, and that's probably Aviva. (I'd guess that would probably be EPCR's choice, not the Munster Branch).

Small things, but if the Marina Park is finished and developments like the Marina Quarter go ahead, it helps. It's one thing going to a stadium on the edge of a decrepit industrial area; another going to a stadium surrounded by parkland and nice, shiny apartment blocks with bars/cafes. The stadium would be much more accessible too if you could reach it from the city centre via the docks and not only via Centre Park Rd.

Still think it's a bit of a shame too about how the MAS has been treated. The old showgrounds gone, their proposal for a big exhibition centre in Curaheen rejected presumably as it'd compete with the Event Centre; and now that's in limbo we don't seem to have any imminent sign of an indoor conference/event venue in the city.

Markcheese

snotboogie wrote: »

The main issue I have is the lack of usage. Seen on SSC somebody said it must have the worst ratio of capacity to overall attendance of any stadium ever opened anywhere in the world, I'd say they're not far wrong. Has it ever actually been filled aside from the maybe 3 times total there has been a concert there?

Yup .. the liam miller soccer match ...

who_me

who_me wrote: »

There's no doubting the Aviva is a much more impressive stadium; but I can't imagine anyone would have supported the cost of it (€410m) as opposed the estimated €96m for PuC. It's being called a white-elephant as it is.

It should have been forced into a civic stadium, given the money they looked for it.
Same scenario as the Aviva. IRFU own the land but the Stadium Company is a split between IRFU and FAI.


Easily see the case for some rugby Autumn Internationals and the such being played there.

As much as I would love to see Munster matches there. it would never happen. They need to keep filling Thomond to be financially viable and the matches sent to Cork are ones where it would lose money to open Thomond for, so a non runner for PUC

snotboogie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It should have been forced into a civic stadium, given the money they looked for it.
Same scenario as the Aviva. IRFU own the land but the Stadium Company is a split between IRFU and FAI.


Easily see the case for some rugby Autumn Internationals and the such being played there.

As much as I would love to see Munster matches there. it would never happen. They need to keep filling Thomond to be financially viable and the matches sent to Cork are ones where it would lose money to open Thomond for, so a non runner for PUC

I think a Munster game is more likely than an autumn international because Ireland are locked into the Aviva with long term ticket sales and sponsorships. Pre World Cup friendlys would be the only shot. A Leinster/Ulster/HC game in PUC where you could in theory fill it out with 45k would probably make more money than 25k in TP even with the rent costs. I suppose there is no point in this being debated because its not being looked at. Cork GAA seem quite happy to sit on one of the most underused stadiums ever opened.

Mardyke

who_me wrote: »

A fair point. But at some point we have to break the cycle of:

"What's the point in building a stadium, there are no events to fill it??"

and

"Can't bring events to the city, as we don't have the venue for it??"

Well, now there is a fantastic venue in the city, ideally rather than lament the fact that it was built; we could look to exploit it.

The problem with attracting events is that two sides of the ground are terraces with no corporate accommodation.

The river side stand doesn't have any corporate facilities as far as I know.

Not having any transport infrastructure to and from the ground is probably also a problem.

This will rule out lots of major events.

On top of all that, the GAA manage the thing. Lots of organisations wouldn't deal with them.

Shedite27

Lads, GAA pitch is massive, go back and watch the Croker games, rugby and soccer was rubbish there.

Pete_Cavan

GAA stadiums are not suitable for soccer or rugby physically (pitch too big) or commercially (need to rent PUC and existing contracts on own stadium).

Not sure where the "most underused stadiums ever opened" is coming from but surely that would have been the case already. Lots of much bigger stadiums around the world which get little or no use.

igCorcaigh

Very OT, but I just passed the Red Abbey, and there was what looked like a Japanese girl, skipping, with a skipping rope.
And I thought, yeah, this is the Cork City that I love.

snotboogie

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

GAA stadiums are not suitable for soccer or rugby physically (pitch too big) or commercially (need to rent PUC and existing contracts on own stadium).

Not sure where the "most underused stadiums ever opened" is coming from but surely that would have been the case already. Lots of much bigger stadiums around the world which get little or no use.

Name one that gets less use than PUC

Reputable Rog

snotboogie wrote: »

I think a Munster game is more likely than an autumn international because Ireland are locked into the Aviva with long term ticket sales and sponsorships. Pre World Cup friendlys would be the only shot. A Leinster/Ulster/HC game in PUC where you could in theory fill it out with 45k would probably make more money than 25k in TP even with the rent costs. I suppose there is no point in this being debated because its not being looked at. Cork GAA seem quite happy to sit on one of the most underused stadiums ever opened.

There’s zero prospect of a Munster game. Munster have their own stadium in Limerick with much better corporate facilities.
The IRFU would not be keen on effectively handing over their already depleted match day revenue to a competitor.
Munster also have sponsorship deals with Diageo who have the pouring rights in Thomond, Heineken have the rights to PUC, how do you overcome that problem as well as all the box holders and their entitlements?