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Cork developments
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Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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NDP 2018-2027 involves funding the appraisal, design and planning of the most viable corridor (which is presumably Ballincollig-City-South Docklands). If this is complete, it would have planning and be ready to go at relatively short notice when required.snotboogie wrote: »
IMO this is the best approach here because a defined light rail corridor would make zoning dense land along the route easier which would increase the viability of the light rail system going forward.0 -
You’d think after that study that the most important thing in Cork would be to build population density by going with more high rise developments especially in the city centre and along the proposed route of the development.
Yet which part appear to be most vocally against high rise developments in Cork?0 -
https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/cork-development-on-the-up-as-business-eyes-real-capital-value-37575226.html
Another summary in the above article, not quite as good as snootboogies but not many could reach that standard.0 -
This whole 'not enough density lark' I wonder is it just based on silly Anglo-Yankee gargle about making profits from public services. There are many Cities across Europe, nowhere near as chockers as Cork is, with comprehensive 2 or 3 line light rail systems complimented by electric commuter rail networks and frequent city buses. Are they profitable systems? probably not, but why does that matter? it's public transport not a retirement fund. So what if it were to operate at a loss for a few years it provides a basis for increased density and increased standard of living all round.0
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This whole 'not enough density lark' I wonder is it just based on silly Anglo-Yankee gargle about making profits from public services. There are many Cities across Europe, nowhere near as chockers as Cork is, with comprehensive 2 or 3 line light rail systems complimented by electric commuter rail networks and frequent city buses. Are they profitable systems? probably not, but why does that matter? it's public transport not a retirement fund. So what if it were to operate at a loss for a few years it provides a basis for increased density and increased standard of living all round.
Everything in Ireland seems to be done so as to be potentially privatised by the buddies.0 -
This whole 'not enough density lark' I wonder is it just based on silly Anglo-Yankee gargle about making profits from public services. There are many Cities across Europe, nowhere near as chockers as Cork is, with comprehensive 2 or 3 line light rail systems complimented by electric commuter rail networks and frequent city buses. Are they profitable systems? probably not, but why does that matter? it's public transport not a retirement fund. So what if it were to operate at a loss for a few years it provides a basis for increased density and increased standard of living all round.
Regardless of rail infrastructure, we need to increase the density of our cities anyway. Ireland is a small country. We will eventually run out of space. We cannot continue outward. There is virtually no genuine real wilderness left in the country. All we have is relatively small city centres, surrounded by ever-increasing suburbs, without the necessary facilities to go with them. You then have country towns surrounded by endless one-off houses.
There is then the unrealistic expectation that every county will have its own world class hospital, university, etc.
We are also third worst on a league table of polluters in Europe. We contribute to this because of all the cars on the road, commuting rediculous distances, day after day.
If we build up rather than out, there will be the critical mass required to put in the required infrastructure, including public transport. It wont solve all our problems but high density makes most sense at this stage.
Otherwise, we are heading down the Dublin route, where you have people commuting four hours a day from two counties away to get to work, hospital, etc.0 -
official Ireland are mono-lingual dinosaurs who have their noses way too firmly buried in the Highways England design manual. Broaden your horizons chaps.0
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Regardless of rail infrastructure, we need to increase the density of our cities anyway. Ireland is a small country. We will eventually run out of space. We cannot continue outward. There is virtually no genuine real wilderness left in the country. All we have is relatively small city centres, surrounded by ever-increasing suburbs, without the necessary facilities to go with them. You then have country towns surrounded by endless one-off houses.
There is then the unrealistic expectation that every county will have its own world class hospital, university, etc.
We are also third worst on a league table of polluters in Europe. We contribute to this because of all the cars on the road, commuting rediculous distances, day after day.
If we build up rather than out, there will be the critical mass required to put in the required infrastructure, including public transport. It wont solve all our problems but high density makes most sense at this stage.
Otherwise, we are heading down the Dublin route, where you have people commuting four hours a day from two counties away to get to work, hospital, etc.
Well yes agreed, and you cant have density without adequate services. Build the bloody luas line, if it's quiet in the first 5 years fine, it'll support the regeneration of docklands and increase densities.0 -
Regardless of rail infrastructure, we need to increase the density of our cities anyway. Ireland is a small country. We will eventually run out of space. We cannot continue outward. There is virtually no genuine real wilderness left in the country. All we have is relatively small city centres, surrounded by ever-increasing suburbs, without the necessary facilities to go with them. You then have country towns surrounded by endless one-off houses.
There is then the unrealistic expectation that every county will have its own world class hospital, university, etc.
We are also third worst on a league table of polluters in Europe. We contribute to this because of all the cars on the road, commuting rediculous distances, day after day.
If we build up rather than out, there will be the critical mass required to put in the required infrastructure, including public transport. It wont solve all our problems but high density makes most sense at this stage.
Otherwise, we are heading down the Dublin route, where you have people commuting four hours a day from two counties away to get to work, hospital, etc.
The issue we have is that there are vested interests everywhere against densifying cities.
An Taisce is an obvious obstacle. The Green Party hVe shown themselves to be little better, espousing high density and then objecting when tall buildings are proposed.0 -
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AugustusMinimus wrote: »The issue we have is that there are vested interests everywhere against densifying cities.
An Taisce is an obvious obstacle. The Green Party hVe shown themselves to be little better, espousing high density and then objecting when tall buildings are proposed.
The green party have shown themselves to be the least green of parties, advocating for Diesel and coal instead nuclear base loading. A joke of a party, greatly forgotten.0 -
https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/cork-development-on-the-up-as-business-eyes-real-capital-value-37575226.html
Another summary in the above article, not quite as good as snootboogies but not many could reach that standard.
Articles like that are why I started this thread. He is digging up old proposals that will never get built like trinity quarter and listing them next to schemes which are underway like the ballincollig one. From reading that you would think that both are in a similar pre construction phase, rather than one being dormant for years and one being under construction now. The Events Centre is thrown in there with no context and one would assume is a certainty from his flippant one line on it. The apartment section is all over the place! As he correctly points out, there is a problem with a lack of builds but instead of looking to the major site purchases designated for medium and high density over the last six months for positives, he looks to a slowing of the increase in office rents as great news for accommodation and Cork??? Surely this is a horrible indicator in general for Cork in 2019? I would say stalling rents means less developments and a slowdown of Corks economy rather than “great more accommodation then”...
Not having a pop at you but this article is typical of the scattergun, decontextualized, poorly researched “rise of cork” stuff that gets trotted out every few months. It leaves the reader no better informed about what is going on, what’s in the pipeline and what is stalled.0 -
If we build high rise in the city centre (which I'm not altogether against,or all together for either) where are all the residents of the High rise towers going to need to go? As in where's public transport going take this new generation of city centre dwellers.?
Slava ukraini 🇺🇦
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Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 14101
How to build a better Cork
https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2018/1128/1013925-how-to-build-a-better-cork/
From Frank Crowley of UCC, including a report from the launch of the LUTS plan back in the late 1970s.0 -
How to build a better Cork
https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2018/1128/1013925-how-to-build-a-better-cork/
From Frank Crowley of UCC, including a report from the launch of the LUTS plan back in the late 1970s.
I’m surprised that Ballincollig/Ovens didn’t make one of the 6 important employment hubs. You have two Dell offices, VMware, VCE and a major office development under construction.Markcheese wrote: »If we build high rise in the city centre (which I'm not altogether against,or all together for either) where are all the residents of the High rise towers going to need to go? As in where's public transport going take this new generation of city centre dwellers.?
Work? College? Shopping? You could live in the city centre, work in Blackpool, shop in Mahon and visit your mom in Douglas.0 -
snotboogie wrote: »
The part I hate in that tweet is "at the moment". These infrastructures are there to prepare the future not to be fully used now.
It is like me saying I don't want to build a kitchen extension because I don't have a big enough kitchen yet. It should be the opposite.
You build the light rail network and it will drive the population density up.0 -
The part I hate in that tweet is "at the moment". These infrastructures are there to prepare the future not to be fully used now.
It is like me saying I don't want to build a kitchen extension because I don't have a big enough kitchen yet. It should be the opposite.
You build the light rail network and it will drive the population density up.
If we get a proper BRT line along the route, built in one go and have that available for use while density builds up I’d be happy. I don’t think we’ll get that either though, it will be called BRT but it’ll end up being just regular bus lanes with taxis, cash payments on board, traffic turning across and entering the lanes due to lack of segregation and regular street level stops. It’ll be phased too, so it will be over the course of 10 or 15 years of gradual bus lane additions.0 -
I just don't get this Light Rail fetish down here in Cork. There's so many things wrong with public transport in Cork, that adding a light rail system would not fix a damn thing, except maybe temporarily easing the gigantic inferiority complex that appears to be prevalent here. Before even thinking about light rail, how about ensuring that ALL bus stops are correctly marked out with bus network maps, line diagrams, schedules, as well as CLEAR names for the bus stops? How about ensuring that the next stop names are clearly displayed in EVERY bus on EVERY line in the city?
The current system is simply too confusing to navigate for anyone that isn't born here. Anyone coming in from outside Ireland, whether it's tourists, or people coming here for work, will have a hard time getting to grips with the buses here. Apart from completely nonsensical bus routes, there's the issue of fares, a lack of tourist tickets, the lack of ticket machines, and an over-reliance on bus drivers for selling tickets. And I haven't even touched on the lack of visibility or coherent branding for public transport here in Cork yet. Fixing the issues above will have a much bigger effect on public transport in Cork than simply plopping down yet another white elephant. But I get it, screaming for light rail like a spoiled toddler is easier than getting to grips with the actual issues.Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!
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Fixing the issues above will have a much bigger effect on public transport in Cork than simply plopping down yet another white elephant. But I get it, screaming for light rail like a spoiled toddler is easier than getting to grips with the actual issues.
What other transport white elephants are there in Cork City at present? You make it sound like we have an endemic of over investment in public transport vanity projects, yet I can’t think of one.0 -
Light rail is necessary to facilitate the huge development planned in the Docklands.0
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Frostybrew wrote: »Light rail is necessary to facilitate the huge development planned in the Docklands.
What a load of bull. What's needed is a decent public transport SYSTEM, not an isolated light rail line run by one company running in parallel to a bus network run by another company without coordination. But then again, joint up thinking isn't something that's available in abundance here.What other transport white elephants are there in Cork City at present? You make it sound like we have an endemic of over investment in public transport vanity projects, yet I can’t think of one.
There's the Midleton rail line for one. A stump of a railway ending in the middle of nowhere, without any noteworthy intermediate stations. In fact, you can add the entire Cork "suburban rail network" to that, with the exception of the Cobh line. No intermediate stops at all between Kent Station and Mallow, despite the fact Blackpool and Blarney are already large enough to justify stations of their own.
Then there's Coke Zero Bikes, a system that I absolutely love. Despite that, there's no denying that it is of limited utility in its current state, not just with regards to its network, but it's complete lack of integration with public transport. It's got its own unique branding, is not integrated with the Leap card system, unlike Dublinbikes, and no attempts are being made to remedy the situation. And that's before I touch on the appalling state of repair of the bikes and the stations.
Next we have the Black Ash Park & Ride, another white elephant. A single facility built to serve one particular purpose that is located on the periphery, and therefore is only of very limited use to the city. It is limited to the Park & Ride shuttle, despite being in a prime location to serve as a transport interchange on the southern edge of the city. Oh, and the weekend opening hours are so pathetic I can't even call them a joke because that would be giving them too much credit!
Then there's Cobh Connect. Granted, the service appears to be reasonably successful on its own right. Yet once again, it is a completely disjointed affair, serving only one particular purpose, without any integration into the bus network in the city, and not even integrated into the Leap Card system.
There's four examples right from the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually like to get light rail here in Cork, but given the dismal state of public transport, it should be at the very bottom of the priority list.Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!
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https://m.independent.ie/business/jobs/dublin-swallows-up-majority-of-new-job-opportunities-37557650.html
Beyond the headline that feeds the relentless “East Coast dominance” narrative, the South West region got over 20% of all new jobs created in Ireland over the last 12 months, double the entire Dublin commuter belt combined. Decent return, especially compared to the Limerick region which has no increase0 -
What a load of bull. What's needed is a decent public transport SYSTEM, not an isolated light rail line run by one company running in parallel to a bus network run by another company without coordination. But then again, joint up thinking isn't something that's available in abundance here.
There's the Midleton rail line for one. A stump of a railway ending in the middle of nowhere, without any noteworthy intermediate stations. In fact, you can add the entire Cork "suburban rail network" to that, with the exception of the Cobh line. No intermediate stops at all between Kent Station and Mallow, despite the fact Blackpool and Blarney are already large enough to justify stations of their own.
Then there's Coke Zero Bikes, a system that I absolutely love. Despite that, there's no denying that it is of limited utility in its current state, not just with regards to its network, but it's complete lack of integration with public transport. It's got its own unique branding, is not integrated with the Leap card system, unlike Dublinbikes, and no attempts are being made to remedy the situation. And that's before I touch on the appalling state of repair of the bikes and the stations.
Next we have the Black Ash Park & Ride, another white elephant. A single facility built to serve one particular purpose that is located on the periphery, and therefore is only of very limited use to the city. It is limited to the Park & Ride shuttle, despite being in a prime location to serve as a transport interchange on the southern edge of the city. Oh, and the weekend opening hours are so pathetic I can't even call them a joke because that would be giving them too much credit!
Then there's Cobh Connect. Granted, the service appears to be reasonably successful on its own right. Yet once again, it is a completely disjointed affair, serving only one particular purpose, without any integration into the bus network in the city, and not even integrated into the Leap Card system.
There's four examples right from the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually like to get light rail here in Cork, but given the dismal state of public transport, it should be at the very bottom of the priority list.
Three of your four examples are successful highly used schemes, the other isn’t in Cork City. Do you know what a white elephant is? Just because something is imperfect doesn’t make it a white elephant. I mean you listed the coke bike scheme ffs:
“But despite rapid growth to become one of the most popular bike share schemes in the State, the National Transport Authority (NTA) still has no immediate plans to expand it.”
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cork-bike-share-scheme-hits-one-million-journeys-865455.html
If anything it’s an underfunded success story, the exact opposite of a white elephant...0 -
All of the arguments about light rail will be redundant in 5 years or so when self driving cars start taking over and people just use them on demand. I'm not being facetious here either, self driving cars and trucks are a lot closer than everybody thinks. In the US they say 9000 self driving cars will eliminate the entire New York taxi service. They will also practically eliminate road deaths, city centre car parks etc. So probably not a great idea to invest in light rail at this stage.0
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All of the arguments about light rail will be redundant in 5 years or so when self driving cars start taking over and people just use them on demand. I'm not being facetious here either, self driving cars and trucks are a lot closer than everybody thinks. In the US they say 9000 self driving cars will eliminate the entire New York taxi service. They will also practically eliminate road deaths, city centre car parks etc. So probably not a great idea to invest in light rail at this stage.
Car takes how many people per trip?
Single Luas handles how many?0 -
All of the arguments about light rail will be redundant in 5 years or so when self driving cars start taking over and people just use them on demand. I'm not being facetious here either, self driving cars and trucks are a lot closer than everybody thinks. In the US they say 9000 self driving cars will eliminate the entire New York taxi service. They will also practically eliminate road deaths, city centre car parks etc. So probably not a great idea to invest in light rail at this stage.
I'm not sure that Cork has the density for on demand self driving cars. The Irish taxi lobby is still disproportionately strong, do not underestimate them. They have been expert in crafting the narrative around Uber and have managed to garner public support (against their own interest) to render the service completely subservient to taxi drivers.0 -
What a load of bull. What's needed is a decent public transport SYSTEM, not an isolated light rail line run by one company running in parallel to a bus network run by another company without coordination. But then again, joint up thinking isn't something that's available in abundance here.
There's the Midleton rail line for one. A stump of a railway ending in the middle of nowhere, without any noteworthy intermediate stations. In fact, you can add the entire Cork "suburban rail network" to that, with the exception of the Cobh line. No intermediate stops at all between Kent Station and Mallow, despite the fact Blackpool and Blarney are already large enough to justify stations of their own.
Then there's Coke Zero Bikes, a system that I absolutely love. Despite that, there's no denying that it is of limited utility in its current state, not just with regards to its network, but it's complete lack of integration with public transport. It's got its own unique branding, is not integrated with the Leap card system, unlike Dublinbikes, and no attempts are being made to remedy the situation. And that's before I touch on the appalling state of repair of the bikes and the stations.
Next we have the Black Ash Park & Ride, another white elephant. A single facility built to serve one particular purpose that is located on the periphery, and therefore is only of very limited use to the city. It is limited to the Park & Ride shuttle, despite being in a prime location to serve as a transport interchange on the southern edge of the city. Oh, and the weekend opening hours are so pathetic I can't even call them a joke because that would be giving them too much credit!
Then there's Cobh Connect. Granted, the service appears to be reasonably successful on its own right. Yet once again, it is a completely disjointed affair, serving only one particular purpose, without any integration into the bus network in the city, and not even integrated into the Leap Card system.
There's four examples right from the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually like to get light rail here in Cork, but given the dismal state of public transport, it should be at the very bottom of the priority list.
Then how do you propose to move 40,000 plus additional workers on a heavily congested medieval street system on buses that can hold barely 70 people? Light Rail and possibly metro is essential for the scale of development planned in the Docklands area.
What you've outlined above are the usual mickey mouse solutions that have this city choking on traffic due to an over reliance on the motor car. I'll concede that better integration and additional stops on the suburban system will help. But a proper rapid transit system is required to link the Docklands area with other major residential and employment areas is essential, along with a new and greatly expanded bus network, and an autonomous Cork based public transit authority that can run the whole system correctly.0 -
Does anyone else think that the rail tunnel into Kent is a problem?
It severely limits the amount of flow into the station, if you try to factor an increased Mallow/Blarney/Blackpool commuter service0 -
Frostybrew wrote: »I'll concede that better integration and additional stops on the suburban system will help. But a proper rapid transit system is required to link the Docklands area with other major residential and employment areas is essential, along with a new and greatly expanded bus network, and an autonomous Cork based public transit authority that can run the whole system correctly.
Glad to see that you are at least partially lucid. However, A "rapid transit system" doesn't require light rail. What advantages does light rail have that a well designed and coordinated bus system doesn't? It's not faster as the trams will have to share the roads with private cars and other vehicles, and will as such be just as susceptible to traffic jams as the current buses are, certainly in the city centre, and most likely in the suburbs as well. This also negates the higher capacity that trams would bring. Construction will bring massive disruptions to the city centre for a significant amount of time, probably a year or more, while rails, power supplies, signalling equipment and the likes are installed. Given the resistance the flood defence scheme is facing, that alone will likely scuttle any light rail ambitions in Cork until judgement day, so it would be foolish to spend any money on such a folly.Frostybrew wrote: »What you've outlined above are the usual mickey mouse solutions that have this city choking on traffic due to an over reliance on the motor car.
The only Mickey Mouse thing in here is the incessant howling for light rail with ZERO clues about what it involves. Cork doesn't need a solution that might possibly be implemented in twenty or thirty years. The city can't wait for that. It needs solutions that can be rolled out within the next five to ten years at most. And that simply means improving the bus network, no matter how painful that maybe to the egos here in the rebel city. Stop selling tickets on the bus, put ticket machines on all stops. Introduce buses with both front and rear doors to reduce the time needed for passengers to get on and off. Introduce articulated buses if necessary. Tie all bus and train services together into one system, one local transport authority. Anything else is just foolish at this stage.Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!
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snotboogie wrote: »I mean you listed the coke bike scheme ffs
I know damn well what I posted, I don't need you to remind me. And yes, Coke Zero Bikes is a white elephant, and I'm saying that as a proponent and user of the system. It is incomplete in its current form, of limited utility. For Christ's sake, it isn't even covering Victoria Cross or CIT, although both of those areas would be easy to integrate.snotboogie wrote: »Three of your four examples are successful highly used schemes, the other isn’t in Cork City
Sources for each of those statements? And what does one of the examples not being within the city have to do with it? Commuter streams don't just start and stop at the city limits, this isn't SimCity! All of the systems are being used because they have no real alternatives. That doesn't mean they're actually useful in their current state, whether that's operating times, the frequency of services and size and types of the vehicles involved, or the location of the stops.
Leaving semantics aside, both your reply and Frostybrew's reply clearly demonstrate the widespread denial that exists in Cork when it comes to public transport. Everyone clamours for some high visibility, flashy project that will be supremely disruptive during its construction phase, will bypass significant population centres simply by virtue of the geography of Cork, and will require funding at a level that is pretty much impossible to get in the short to medium term. Anyone who points that out will be shouted down.
At the same time, there are real steps that can be made to improve public transport in Cork in the short to medium term, such as integrating public transport under a single brand, moving all ticketing to Leap cards and out of the buses into ticket machines, making the system easier to understand for visitors and newcomers, even a BRT corridor. All of these steps, with the possible exception of BRT, can be done with only a fraction of the funding needed for a light rail system, and will bring short and medium term results, something that is desperately needed.Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!
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