Cork developments

snotboogie

thomil wrote: »

I know damn well what I posted, I don't need you to remind me. And yes, Coke Zero Bikes is a white elephant, and I'm saying that as a proponent and user of the system. It is incomplete in its current form, of limited utility. For Christ's sake, it isn't even covering Victoria Cross or CIT, although both of those areas would be easy to integrate.

I still don't think you know what a white elephant is. A system having greater potential than its current utility is the opposite of a white elephant. Genuinely perplexed reading this post...

thomil

snotboogie wrote: »

Genuinely perplexed reading this post...

Well, to help the easily perplexed, let me enlighten you a bit. Here’s the full definition of a white elephant from Merriam-Webster:

Definition of white elephant
1 : an Asian elephant of a pale color that is sometimes venerated in India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, and Myanmar
2a : a property requiring much care and expense and yielding little profit
b : an object no longer of value to its owner but of value to others
c : something of little or no value

Leaving aside the literal pachyderm in paragraph 1, You’all see that an object doesn’t need to be completely useless to qualify as a white elephant. It just needs to yield little return in relation to the necessary investment. Going by that standard, all of my examples easily qualify, including Coke Zero Bikes.

Regardless of the useless semantics that you brought up, so far NO ONE has been able to answer one simple question: What benefit does a light rail line bring that a properly organised and laid out bus network doesn’t? To be more precise, what use is such a system on its own, without being part of an integrated public transport system? Care to answer that instead of arguing over the definition of every single phrase that I use?

snotboogie

thomil wrote: »

Well, to help the easily perplexed, let me enlighten you a bit. Here’s the full definition of a white elephant from Merriam-Webster:

Definition of white elephant
1 : an Asian elephant of a pale color that is sometimes venerated in India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, and Myanmar
2a : a property requiring much care and expense and yielding little profit
b : an object no longer of value to its owner but of value to others
c : something of little or no value

Leaving aside the literal pachyderm in paragraph 1, You’all see that an object doesn’t need to be completely useless to qualify as a white elephant. It just needs to yield little return in relation to the necessary investment. Going by that standard, all of my examples easily qualify, including Coke Zero Bikes.

Regardless of the useless semantics that you brought up, so far NO ONE has been able to answer one simple question: What benefit does a light rail line bring that a properly organised and laid out bus network doesn’t? To be more precise, what use is such a system on its own, without being part of an integrated public transport system? Care to answer that instead of arguing over the definition of every single phrase that I use?

In terms of public spending "A white elephant is a possession which cannot be disposed of and whose cost, particularly that of maintenance, is out of proportion to its usefulness" This doesn't contradict your definition but is more focused on this discussion. The coke bike scheme could easily be disposed of, it's relatively cheap to run and has a massive usage rate. It has literally no characteristics of a white elephant. Just because it doesn't go to CIT or the suburbs, doesn't mean that it is completely useless. The figures show that it is a highly used and successful service. As is the park and ride, as is the cobh scheme. I agree, all of these services could be improved but the fact that you are proposing improvements rather than the elimination of these systems shows they are not White Elephants or examples of government overspend. In fact they are the opposite; they are good ideas plagued by under investment and a lack of ambition to maximise their utilisation. My point stands that there are no flashy public transport overspends existent in Cork City.

In terms of light rail, if you bothered to read a post I made in this thread today, I agreed that BRT on the route is a more realistic option. Bus Eireann have showed no indication that they can run an urban bus service or that they have any real interest in making the necessary improvements you mentioned in Cork. Saying we should make changes to the bus network is all well and good but experience has shown us that the company providing the service in Cork is resistant to those changes. With an LRT system we would at least have a public transport service that people can trust to arrive on time, so they could use it to go to work. Once that is in place, we can zone for density along the route and reduce our reliance on cars.

Spook_ie

snotboogie wrote: »

I'm not sure that Cork has the density for on demand self driving cars. The Irish taxi lobby is still disproportionately strong, do not underestimate them. They have been expert in crafting the narrative around Uber and have managed to garner public support (against their own interest) to render the service completely subservient to taxi drivers.

What Irish taxi lobby? The Uber service were told that they couldn't put in their own pricing structure that exceeded the national fares rulings by the NTA and that as a small PSV drivers and vehicles would need to be registered and licensed, or do you mean you'd like a ride home with Uber Eats for the price of your Pizza?

snotboogie

December Update


Under Construction

Navigation Square: An OCP four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3,000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19' Clearstream to be the anchor client. Phase 2 commenced in Sept 2018.





85-86 South Mall: JCD's 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18' KPMG to be anchor client and Forcepoint taking the remaining space. Fully let out. Tower crane taken down in October.

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18' Crane should be coming down today or tommorow





Penrose Dock: JCD's 7 and 9 floor 250,000 sq ft office development in the area bounded by Penrose quay, Railway street, Alfred street and Brian Boru street. Submitted for planning at the end of May, decision due on 19th of July. Further information also requested. Further information supplied and planning granted on the 12th of September. Appeals allowed until the 11th of October. If this is not appealed JCD could be on site by Halloween. On site by the middle of October! Clearance work ongoing as of the end of October. We could see a crane by Christmas. Still no crane at the start of October but work progressing quickly



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp9yYHWW4AMoncj.jpg

Horgan's Quay: A joint venture between BAM and Clarendon featuring over 400,000 sq feet of office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, a 136 bed hotel and 3,000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Appeal withdrawn in April. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in August with the office and apartments commencing in 2019. Probably worth noting that construction was set to start in August but as of the end of September nothing has happened. However the Hotel Clients Oakmount have already named the hotel The Dean so I would really expect serious construction to start in October or November. Serious site clearance began in October but the commencement of work form that was posted, stated a 26 week initial site contract to include all the required demolitions and site preparation work for the main construction. This means that it could be April next year before we see construction on site. Piling on the hotel has started. The site clearance line seemed to refer to the whole site. Expect a crane by Christmas!





Westfield Offices Ballincollig: Located on 6 acres Westfield Office Quarter comprises 5 individual buildings located within a landscaped development. In total the scheme has the potential to provide up to 264,000 sq ft of office accommodation with stand-alone buildings varying in size from 12,000 sq ft to 70,000 sq ft. Started site clearance in November.



Student :

• Western Road/Muskerry Service Station (190 beds) is finished
• Bam's Beamish site (413 beds) has two tower cranes erected and began work on the office element at the end of October
• Copley Street (126 beds) should be finished by 2019
• Student Hub in UCC has one tower crane up.

Residential

• 608 units, 496 houses and 112 apartments in Ballinglanna Glanmire, Ground and infrastructure works commenced on that project in Oct 2018, with a sales launch due next spring.
• 800 units, in the Janeville development in Carrigaline started in April 2017, 100-150 delivered per year. Now on Phase 3 with 111 units sold so far.

Other:

• Industrial projects: Johnson & Johnson (biggest construction project in Cork), MSD, Eli Lilly (all above 100 million).
• Container Terminal for the Port of Cork: €80 million container terminal for the Port of Cork in Ringaskiddy. will initially offer a 360m with 13m depth to allow larger ships to berth at Ringaskiddy. The development includes the construction of a 13.5-hectare terminal and associated buildings as well as two ship-to-shore gantry cranes and container handling equipment. It is anticipated that it will become operational by 2020.

There are currently 5 all listed above.

Planning/Appealed

Mixed Use:

Sullivan's Quay: BAM's 12 storey, 180 bed, 47 metre, 4 star Hotel with 6 storey 120,000sq ft office space. Planning granted and immediately appealed. It is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. Full planning granted on June 29th. No start date for construction. Now three months with planning and little to no construction activity. Not time to get worried but one to keep an eye on. Strong rumours that this will not start until the event centre does. So expect a delay of at least 6 months.



Office:

The Prism: Time Square Construction's 15 storey, 70 metre, 60,000 sq ft office development on the triangle site on Clontarf Street. Planning lodged in the middle of May and a decision is due on the 10th of July. An Taisce objected on the 22nd of June. Further information requested on planning, however height doesn't seem to be an issue. Further information supplied on September the 17th a decision is due on the 8th of October. Planning approved, the mysterious O'Sullivan brothers are set "to comment" if this passes the appeal period.... An Taisce very likely to appeal, if they don't this has been given a tentative start date of Q2 2019. An Taisce went and appealed... Delayed proceedings until March next year at the best




City Gate Plaza: JCD submitted for planning permission for the construction of an office development at the former Ma/Comm Site. The proposed development includes two office buildings; Block A will be four floors Block B will be three floors over ground floor with terraces. The proposed development also includes a ground floor café and additional car parking. Decision due 28th of August. Planning has been resubmitted and a new decision is due on the 23rd of October. Further information requested.

Hotel:

Parnell Place Hotel: 7flr, 165 bed hotel on Parnell Place and Deane Street. Submitted on Aug 6th, objections from residents on the 10th of Sept. Planning decision was due on the 26th of Sept. Further information requested. Information supplied in Nov with a decision due on Dec 3rd.



Morrison's Island Hostel: 192-bed hostel. The development will include the demolition of a currently vacant building on the site after planning was granted to applicant Eoin Sheehan. Planning granted on the 4th of September.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No appeals and got full permission in April. Construction on the M boutique hotel to start sometime in 2019 and the Metropole will start once the M is completed. I have a bad feeling about this one, we are now 6 months since full planning and no movement. I wouldn't be surprised to see this go the way of Merchants Quay.

MacCurtain Street/York Street Hotel: 8 floor 73 bed hotel. Planning granted in March, appealed soon after and withdrawn at the end of April. Construction to start before the end of the year. Again nothing on this at all for 6 months.

Retail:

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, appealed with a decision due soon. (If somebody knows the date it would be great). No update on when the decision is due, again if somebody knows when this is due i'd love to hear. As of the end of July there is bizarrely still no update. Planning due on the 12th of September but has been indefinitely delayed

Residential:

Jacobs Island Apartments: McCarthy Properties/Montip Horizon's 413 apartments across a couple of blocks ranging in size from 6 storeys to 9 storeys and one landmark 82.8m and 25 floor tower! This would be the tallest building in the state if constructed. Submitted for Planning with a decision due on October 10th. Planning permission granted and McCarthy Properties are now are "now engaging with our design team and development partners to bring forward the development as granted". I've heard that we won't see anything on site here until at least 2020.

• 446 units, 259 houses and 182 apartments in Carr's Hill Douglas in fast track strategic planning
• 207 units submitted in Ballincollig in Nov 2018
• 203 units, 50 houses, 153 apartments on the Nemo site in Douglas approved in May
• 200 on the Good Shepard site
• 180 units, 164 houses and 10 apartments in Glounthaune

Entertainment

Cork Events Centre: BAM's 6,000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Construction put back to Q1 2019 at the earliest pending new planning permission. Quite a lot of waffle in July but ultimately nothing happened. Planning submitted on Aug 10th with a decision due on October 4th. An taisce have objected and will almost certainly appeal if planning is granted. There is also the not so small hurdle of central government funding. Expect this to rumble into the new year.... More information requested at the start of October. Lets see if BAM respond before the new year... No news in Nov 2018



Student accommodation:

The old Crows Nest site (250 beds) got planning in March for 10 and 8 storey student accommodation and should hopefully start at some stage this year, UCC expect it open for Sept 2020. Appointing contractor in Dec for start in Q2 2019


Gainstar Limited Partnership's Coca-Cola site (484 beds) on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? Site has been sold to Future Generations who will submit planning for an increase to 600 beds and are hoping for a Q2 2019 start pending planning


The Square Deal (228 beds) appeal was withdrawn and it now has full planning permission.
Farranlea Road (145 beds) Has full planning permission as of July 2018
Kelleher Tyres site on Victoria Cross Rd (124 beds) and their 5 storey apartment block were asked for further information, decision due on the 7th of August. Further information was requested in August
O’Riordans Joinery (322 beds) at the Lough was due for decision on the 24th of May but I've heard nothing? Permission granted on the 25th of Aug 2018. Developers have gone back to ABP at the end of Oct 2018 asking to increase beds to 418

Industrial:

€130 million investment to be made to expand the Middleton Distillery

Infrastructure:

N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Tender for this project has been awarded to Sisk. Preliminary works by the contractor will begin on site in Q4 2018 with full construction in Q1 2019. The scheme is expected to take 3/4 years to complete due to the complex traffic management involved.

M20 Cork-Limerick: This tender process for the design and planning of this scheme went out in April with route selection and initial design expected to begin in late 2018/early 2019. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have announced in Sept that this scheme is expected to start in 2021 and open in 2025, however this appears ambitious.

N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney: The prequal stage of this is now complete with invitations to tender being sent out in July 2018. At present, a tender award is expected (but not confirmed) in mid 2019 with a start soon after. Completion is expected to take 3 years.

N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton: This project is included in the National Development Plan having been suspended in 2011. The project has entered the pre-appraisal stage along with 14 other schemes nationwide under a TII framework. This scheme may be one of the first to go to construction as it's a small scheme and pays large dividends for low upfront cost.

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: This project was approved in full by An Bord Pleanala in July 2018, and Cork County Council intend to begin land purchase and issue tenders for advance works in late 2018. However, a local militant anti-motorway group in Rochestown intend to seek a judicial review on the project, which in their belief will lead to the destruction of their community and widespread health issues due to noise and air pollution, although their solution is to route the motorway through Ballinhassig instead which would add around €400m to the cost of the project and add upto 25km of a round trip for vehicles. Judicial review was awarded in September 2018, set a nominal return date to court of 4th October 2018, but this is unlikely to be the start of the hearing as the plantiff & defendant will need time to prepare their cases. Most likely early next year before the hearing commences but we'll see what fast tracked means in the high court.

M40 Motorway Reclassification and ITS Upgrade: TII & Cork County Council are currently engaged with consultants on this which would see motorway regulations being applied to the N40 and ITS equipment ("smart motorway" equipment) including display VMSs being installed on the length of the M40 and approach roads such as the N27 and N71. The study is ongoing with phased implementation expected on an as of yet unknown timescale. Enabling works including communication ducting will be carried out in Q4 2018.

M40 North Ring Road East: This project was included in the National Development Plan and will be reactivated if there is a requirement to connect the M20 to the motorway network around Cork. The road remains a priority for people on the Northside (including Apple) but not to central Government.

R624 Cobh Road dualling: Cork County Council are applying to DTTAS to have this road upgraded to a national road and a portion of dual carriageway built along its length which will involve the construction of a 2nd dual carraigeway bridge onto Great Island. The project will be initially appraised under DTTAS new appraisal guidelines, with no timescale yet for delivery.

In Limbo

Public:
Tramore Valley Park: Despite being mostly completed years ago the park remains in limbo with regard to an opening date. A few months ago Ann Doherty, chief executive of Cork City Council, said that the plan was to have the amenity open in ‘August or September.’ Now pushed back to 2019 or 2020, depending on funding. In Oct 2018 we got a new opening date of May 2019

Marina Park: Under construction with first phase to open in Q1 2019. I'm very sceptical. As of end of Oct 2018, nothing happening on site. In Nov 2019 they claimed they are looking for a contractor.

N22 Macroom-Ovens (bypassing Lissarda and Ovens), N25 Midleton-Youghal (bypassing Lakeview Roundabout, Castlemartyr and Killeagh, M40 North Ring Road West and N71 dualling all remain suspended.

Retail:
Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. Planning resubmitted and a decision due on the 23rd of August. Planning granted and the site was put up for sale. We won't see anything for years on this now

Penny's Patrick Street: In Summer 2018 Lawrence Owens of the CBA said “This planning process has been going on for a long time,” “When it happens it will transform the area, and bring vibrancy in terms of the size and scale of the project. We are just hoping that this development, which has been mooted for two to three years, can happen sooner rather than later.” Don't hold your breath!

Merchants Quay: Has had planning permission since July 2015.The last article I found on it was from 2017 and said: It is understood that work won't begin until early next year to minimise disruption to shoppers over the coming Christmas shopping period, though sources close to the development are confident that the work will be finished by late 2018.


Office:
OCP's Anderson Quay (150,000 ft2/ 5 stories) Has had full planning since sometime in 2016. No updates in the last few years. Perhaps if The Prism was to go ahead we could see something at Anderson Quay? It could possibly be developed in conjunction with the smaller phase two of OCP's Navigation Square?

Stone Work Properties' Camden Quay (65,000 sq ft/ 5 stories): Demolition work finished in Jan 2017 with Stone Work claiming "that once demolition was complete, construction would take just 12 months"

Watfore Ltd's Trinity Quarter (240,000 sq ft/5 stories): Has had planning since 2015 with very little news since. The last I can find of it was a March 2015 article which said: "There was confirmation that a €50m six-storey office block which has planning permission on the former Brooks Haughton site on Copley St, South Terrace, is going ahead within months."

All three office developments were mentioned in this article from August 2018.

Student Accommodation:


Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road (344 beds) has had planning for two years.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried. Planning application now due in Q1 2019

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale in May. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity. Rumored to be a residential development with over 1,000 apartments. Sold to Glenveagh in June 2018 for over 15 million.

The Comer brother bought the nearby Tedcastle site for €15 million as well and are also planning residential most likely high density apartments. The Comer Brothers also bought a 3.3 acre warehouse building on the Centre Park/Monoghan Rd.

Glenveagh in Nov 2018 bought a 42 acre plot of land in Douglas for 22 million. It has planning for 200 houses on 19 acres but has a further 23 acre lot which is zoned for medium of high density. I would expect a new planning application for the entire site. We could see up to 500 units total here.

Glenveagh bought the unfinished Eden development in Blackrock for 9 million in Oct 2018, we could see up to 200 units on this spot.

A 7 acre site on the South Douglas Rd went on sale at the start of Nov. It is zoned for high density apartments.

Transportation: A Cork light rail and/or BRT system got vague mentions in Ireland 2040 but its rumoured something more concrete will be announced at the end of the summer. Now pushed back to "sometime in October" with much more vague mentions of LRT and BRT.
Bus connects was allocated 200 million in funding in the 2040 plan.
The Eastern Gateway Bridge remains a concept

Going forward:

What to watch for in December:

4th of December: Parnell Place Hotel decision
Sometime in Dec: Docklands Transport Plan, finally???
Sometime in Dec: Victoria Hotel Planning Decision??


Updated best case schedule:

Q3 2018: Navigation Sq phase 2
Q4 2018: Horgan's Quay, Penrose Dock, Westfield Office
Q1 2019: Events Centre, Dunkettle, The M, Jacobs Island, City Gate Plaza, Parnell Place Hotel, Sullivan's Quay, Square Deal, York Street Hotel, Victoria Cross Student
Q2 2019: Victoria Hotel, The Prism, Crows Nest, Coca Cola Student

6 of the 18 developments are over 9 storeys tall (Horgan's Quay, Sullivan's Quay, Crow's Nest, The Prism, Jacobs Island and Penrose Docks) with Jacobs Island having two buildings over 9 stories, currently there are only two buildings in Cork over 9 storeys (The Elyssian and the County Hall). One would be the tallest in the state, another would make the top 5 in the state and another would make the top 15. These developments represent a potential seismic shift in the cityscape.

Obviously there is no way all 16 will even start, nevermind over this timeframe.

j8wk2feszrnpao

thomil wrote: »

I just don't get this Light Rail fetish down here in Cork.

For a number of people (obviously not all) they see it in Dublin, so it should be in Cork. You can't argue with them; it's in their head and that's all there is to it.

Frostybrew

@Thomil.

Most of what you are suggesting is needed. But it was needed 30 years ago. It's suitable for a city of 150,000 to 200,000; which was the population of the metropolitan area back then.

The LUTs plan of 1978 outlined a list of public transport requirements that should have been in place by 1991 but were never progressed, requirements that have similarities to the list you have given above, leading to the traffic congestion issues our city is presently experiencing.

The Cork of the near future is predicted to have a population of 500,000 or more. This means some form of mass urban transit is going to be required; and needs to be in place within the next decade or so, if a Dublin style planning and traffic congestion mess is to be avoided.

As a matter of fact us "light rail fetishists" we would like to avoid the scenario that has come to pass in our capital, a city badly underserved by public transport due to the short sighted cancellation of a city wide DART network in the late 80's. A cancellation pushed forward by many individuals that express a similar sentiment to many on here.

Deub

munstermagic11 wrote: »

For a number of people (obviously not all) they see it in Dublin, so it should be in Cork. You can't argue with them; it's in their head and that's all there is to it.

I am just comparing Cork and Orléans. 2 similar size cities. The tram works well there. I know people from villages around using it when shopping in the city center. It costs less than parking in the city (1.60€ a ticket). A study found that for users it costs on average 9cts per kilometer versus 25cts for a car.
It is also well integrated (rails are not on the road when possible and they are covered with grass).

j8wk2feszrnpao

Deub wrote: »

I am just comparing Cork and Orléans. 2 similar size cities.

You have to compare the tax rate and social charges as well. I'm not saying we pay a low tax rate, but it's not like the French. A french college of mine told me what he pays, and it's eye watering compared to here. But, in general, they get really good services. Although, it's proving to be unpopular over there with ever increasing taxes.

Rhys Essien

@snotboogie

There’s a bit of work in those updates.Fair play.

Now just two observations.I think it was discussed before but what’s the story with the Mannix and Culhane shop on Washington St/ North Main St. It’s like something stuck in a time warp.It would be a fantastic site for a slap bang city centre high rise.Seeing a single storey building there does not look right at all.

Another one, the whole issue of the busses clogging up Patrick’s Quay.There is acres of free space at the top of Horgans Quay outside the new train station right up to Penrose Quay.All they would need to do is put up proper fencing next to the river and remove the fencing by the road and you would get a hundred busses in there.

whisky_galore

Looking around Europe, even smallish cities have got public transport that leaves Dublin and Cork for dust, integrated ticketing so you can hop on bus, tram, metro, light rail or whatever.

Here we have a so-called transport minister whom I note gets all excited by a handful of greenways getting funding, while cities are in gridlock morning and evening. Even worse the public are content to sit in traffic crawling along with nice thoughts about taking de kids to cycle the greenway at the weekend.

whisky_galore

shnaek wrote: »

All of the arguments about light rail will be redundant in 5 years or so when self driving cars start taking over and people just use them on demand. I'm not being facetious here either, self driving cars and trucks are a lot closer than everybody thinks. In the US they say 9000 self driving cars will eliminate the entire New York taxi service. They will also practically eliminate road deaths, city centre car parks etc. So probably not a great idea to invest in light rail at this stage.

Unless they are flying cars they are fcuk all use and only serve to clog up the roads anyway.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Looking around Europe, even smallish cities have got public transport that leaves Dublin and Cork for dust, integrated ticketing so you can hop on bus, tram, metro, light rail or whatever.

Here we have a so-called transport minister whom I note gets all excited by a handful of greenways getting funding, while cities are in gridlock morning and evening. Even worse the public are content to sit in traffic crawling along with nice thoughts about taking de kids to cycle the greenway at the weekend.

I've asked BE multiple times about Leap 90 and integrated timed ticketing for Leap (such as one fare, unlimited transfers for 60 or 90 mins) and they told me they have no such plans in the future to do this. Its really disappointing to be honest, as the technology is there.

Apogee

14 acre site with existing planning (part ghost estate) at Milestream, Shanakiel, Blarney Road up for sale on BidX1.

https://bidx1.com/en-ie/auction/property/30474?lotnumber=&keyword=cork&countyid=0&minprice=0&maxprice=0&AuctionIds=&sortId=0&_v=1

marno21

Apogee wrote: »

14 acre site with existing planning (part ghost estate) at Milestream, Shanakiel, Blarney Road up for sale on BidX1.

https://bidx1.com/en-ie/auction/property/30474?lotnumber=&keyword=cork&countyid=0&minprice=0&maxprice=0&AuctionIds=&sortId=0&_v=1

46 units on 14 acres sounds shocking when you consider how close to Apple it is.

cgcsb

shnaek wrote: »

All of the arguments about light rail will be redundant in 5 years or so when self driving cars start taking over and people just use them on demand. I'm not being facetious here either, self driving cars and trucks are a lot closer than everybody thinks. In the US they say 9000 self driving cars will eliminate the entire New York taxi service. They will also practically eliminate road deaths, city centre car parks etc. So probably not a great idea to invest in light rail at this stage.

Blah blah blah. Self driving or no self driving. Single occupancy vehicles are the most energy inefficient model for city commuting. There will 100% not be self driving cars in cork in 5 years. Silicon valley is selling you something that's a long way from being practical.

cgcsb

munstermagic11 wrote: »

For a number of people (obviously not all) they see it in Dublin, so it should be in Cork. You can't argue with them; it's in their head and that's all there is to it.

Why are cork folks arguing about luas vs better buses. Clearly both are required. As you see in Dublin, despite a 2 line luas system, 1 dart line a planned metro and several planned additions to dart and luas, yet still hundreds of millions is being spent widening streets for new bus lanes, new busses and stops. It's not an either/or.

shnaek

cgcsb wrote: »

Blah blah blah. Self driving or no self driving. Single occupancy vehicles are the most energy inefficient model for city commuting. There will 100% not be self driving cars in cork in 5 years. Silicon valley is selling you something that's a long way from being practical.

We'll see

shnaek

whisky_galore wrote: »

Unless they are flying cars they are fcuk all use and only serve to clog up the roads anyway.

There will be self driving buses too, they could run 24/7. Combined with self driving cars they would be ultra efficient and ultra safe. I know Ireland will never be early adapters, and if we do get light rail let it be like Danish light rail, driver-less and operating 24/7

j8wk2feszrnpao

cgcsb wrote: »

Why are cork folks arguing about luas vs better buses. Clearly both are required. As you see in Dublin, despite a 2 line luas system, 1 dart line a planned metro and several planned additions to dart and luas, yet still hundreds of millions is being spent widening streets for new bus lanes, new busses and stops. It's not an either/or.

I didn't say otherwise. I don't think Cork requires a Luas yet, but they should plan for it with the developments that are forecoming.
I'm just referencing those that see shiny stuff in other cities, and fell no matter what, that Cork must have it.

whisky_galore

shnaek wrote: »

There will be self driving buses too, they could run 24/7. Combined with self driving cars they would be ultra efficient and ultra safe. I know Ireland will never be early adapters, and if we do get light rail let it be like Danish light rail, driver-less and operating 24/7

If they can't be arsed with a relatively simple task like integrated ticketing I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for your fancy pants self driving buses. It's like hopelessly waiting for a Back To The Future hoverboard.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

shnaek wrote: »

There will be self driving buses too, they could run 24/7. Combined with self driving cars they would be ultra efficient and ultra safe. I know Ireland will never be early adapters, and if we do get light rail let it be like Danish light rail, driver-less and operating 24/7

As much as I'd love to see this happen, we can't even get Bus Eireann to run night buses, never mind 24/7 public transport.

Can we all agree that getting rid of BE and having tenders put out for all routes would be a good thing, i.e. Go Ahead in Dublin. BE have shown time and time again that they just aren't interested in improving their bus services.

questionmark?

marno21 wrote: »

46 units on 14 acres sounds shocking when you consider how close to Apple it is.

Very poor use of space but it's what we have come to expect from the rubbish planning in this country.

Corkblowin

questionmark? wrote: »

Very poor use of space but it's what we have come to expect from the rubbish planning in this country.

That site shown in the photo certainly isn't 14 acres. I think the vast majority of the is the hillside sloping down towards the river - all zoned ridge protection and scenic landscape. No prospect of getting planning permission under the current development plan.

no.8

cgcsb wrote: »

Why are cork folks arguing about luas vs better buses. Clearly both are required. As you see in Dublin, despite a 2 line luas system, 1 dart line a planned metro and several planned additions to dart and luas, yet still hundreds of millions is being spent widening streets for new bus lanes, new busses and stops. It's not an either/or.

Top comment. An integrated transportation system is proven worldwide, to be the optimal approach for unlocking city streets. There will be push-back from the selfish, and short-sighted but also rightfully concerned city dwellers/business owners. At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves is the current approach working and what will the city be like 20 years down the line???

no.8

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise. I don't think Cork requires a Luas yet, but they should plan for it with the developments that are forecoming.
I'm just referencing those that see shiny stuff in other cities, and fell no matter what, that Cork must have it.

No, it's about future-proofing capacity. Nothing shiny or glitzy about it. It's about installing systems in place to transport people and goods efficiently and economically. This city won't cope down the line. Look at the N40 today sure.

AugustusMinimus

What would be the difference in price between grade separated BRT and light rail?

The key is grade separation to get public transport out of traffic. If Cork goes BRT it should be built in a way to make it easily upgradeable to light rail.

mire

Interesting discussion about public transport in cork. Although there is a little bit of a fetish about cork getting at Tram system [as well as a little bit of delusion about what it takes to make a tram system viable], I think it is an essential part of the city's transport future. Those who argue that cork is too low density to support such a transport model are correct. However, the best way to densify a city like cork is to develop a transport system that demands higher densities. In other words, the transport system defines the appropriate density. There is only so far we can go with bus systems and improvement of the existing infrastructure network. Cork needs a radical transformation of its development pattern and the only way to really achieve that is through transformative public transport. A tram system will force decision makers to improve the development patterns and it gives a license to those decision makers to start constraining inappropriate development [low density suburban nonsense in places like Douglas Glanmire Carrigaline] and to start concentrating minds around urban development in the right places. Also, there is a worrying tendency to assume that Tram Systems and other light rail models only work in large cities -this is simply untrue. It's not about scale -it's about density.

By the way, anyone who thinks that self driving cars are going to fundamentally alter movement and transportation environments in the short and medium term are mistaken. This is where the misplaced optimism lies. They will simply alter the ownership and energy dimensions - but fundamentally - it is the same model - with roads, car Parks, congestion. Cars still take up road space regardless of who is driving them. Self driving cars still need car Parks. I've been hearing about how self driving cars are going to make public transport unnecessary in five years. Absolute nonsense.

j8wk2feszrnpao

no.8 wrote: »

No, it's about future-proofing capacity. Nothing shiny or glitzy about it. It's about installing systems in place to transport people and goods efficiently and economically. This city won't cope down the line. Look at the N40 today sure.

Again, I'm not saying otherwise. I did actually mention that it needs to be planned for with the future developments in the piece you quoted.

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Again, I'm not saying otherwise. I did actually mention that it needs to be planned for with the future developments in the piece you quoted.

Like developers are going to be swayed by Irish government "plans"
Property prices will also not reflect it to drive building.

Only way to drive development is to have the infrastructure.