Cork developments

chalkitdown1

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/corkcitycouncil/status/1128334530182623234?s=08

Nice looking bridge, actually.

Being installed at the weekend apparently.

Corkbiiy

not part of the CMATs but didn't take long

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Hundreds-of-submissions-made-against-Wilton-Road-project-a8ac95de-61c2-41a4-97b1-64f8cea41906-ds

The submissions by the Wilton Community Action Group, some 50 pages long, have labelled the project as draconian, expensive and unnecessary.

The WCAG also claim the proposed project will have an even greater negative impact on the quality of residents’ lives and have called for a complete re-think.

cgcsb

Corkbiiy wrote: »

not part of the CMATs but didn't take long

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Hundreds-of-submissions-made-against-Wilton-Road-project-a8ac95de-61c2-41a4-97b1-64f8cea41906-ds

They have a point, the proposal by Cork City Council is cac, they're just adding more traffic lanes, the bus hardly gets a look in, in their design and the cycling provision is cac also. They widening is also excessive. Expect the NTA to come up with a 'revised' solution, i.e. a different design.

sheff_

cgcsb wrote: »

They have a point, the proposal by Cork City Council is cac, they're just adding more traffic lanes, .

At the moment there’s 1 bus lane (inbound) and 2 general traffic lanes. This plan adds 1 bus lane (outbound) and 2 cycle lanes - can’t see how this will lead to the increase in traffic the residents claim

cgcsb

sheff_ wrote: »

At the moment there’s 1 bus lane (inbound) and 2 general traffic lanes. This plan adds 1 bus lane (outbound) and 2 cycle lanes - can’t see how this will lead to the increase in traffic the residents claim

There is enough space for continuous bus and cycle lanes both ways and 2 way car movements in the layouts proposed but cars are prioritised with 2 lanes each way for most of it.

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

There is enough space for continuous bus and cycle lanes both ways and 2 way car movements in the layouts proposed but cars are prioritised with 2 lanes each way for most of it.

It depends on your design criteria: if your aim is to plan for cars first, hope for modal shift and miss all your targets it's a solid enough design.

sheff_

cgcsb wrote: »

There is enough space for continuous bus and cycle lanes both ways and 2 way car movements in the layouts proposed but cars are prioritised with 2 lanes each way for most of it.

The current plan sees land acquired on both sides of the road (mainly west) from the old farm centre up to wilton gardens. This section shows an uninterrupted bus lane northbound, southbound is the same bar the 70m before dennehys x where provision is made for left turning cars. So 1 lane each way for cars bar a short stretch where there’s a left turn allowed.

The section with no land acquisition (old farm centre to Victoria x) shows a continuous bus lane for northbound traffic. So a reduction from the current 4 general lanes to 3

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It depends on your design criteria: if your aim is to plan for cars first, hope for modal shift and miss all your targets it's a solid enough design.

I can see the NTA taking this one and saying, ah that's great, A for effort, we'll take it from here.

cgcsb

sheff_ wrote: »

The current plan sees land acquired on both sides of the road (mainly west) from the old farm centre up to wilton gardens. This section shows an uninterrupted bus lane northbound, southbound is the same bar the 70m before dennehys x where provision is made for left turning cars.

The section with no land acquisition (old farm centre to Victoria x) shows a continuous bus lane for northbound traffic

We must be looking at different things:

https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/consultation/wilton-road-sarsfield-road-victoria-cross-western-road-project-public-consultation-1

Page1:
The scheme starts with a useless 15m long scrap of north bound bus lane, which will just be a left turning lane because of the attitudes of drivers. There's also 4 traffic lanes at this point.

Page 2:
Again scrappy bit of north bound bus lane, buses to merge back into the cars to continue, again, no south bound despite the amount of space

Page 3:
No bus lanes, 4 traffic lanes up to the junction, then the north bound cycle lane just turns into a bus lane. Nothing south bound, no cycling provision. There is space to widen the road here.

Page 4:
North bound bus lane continues but is interrupted by left turning traffic at points, nothing southbound and no provision for cycling.

Page 5:
More of same, then bus lane in both directions, no cycling provision

Page 6:
Bus lanes vanish close to Victoria X for no real reason or lack of space.

Page 7:
Again, 4 lanes of traffic, no bus or bike provision. Then a south bound bike lane and a north bound bus lane for a short stretch despite space for road widening.

Page 8:
no bus or cycling provision.

Talk about utter failure. only a cursory nod to sustainable transport despite the land take.

timmyjimmy

There's lots of rental houses on Wilton road, I know because I lived in one of them for a few years. I had friends living rentals up and down the road too so i'm not sure really how people who are against the widening proposal are actually residents of Wilton rd. It's probably a few greed landlords chancing their arm to see what they can get out of it.

sheff_

cgcsb wrote: »

We must be looking at different things:

https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/consultation/wilton-road-sarsfield-road-victoria-cross-western-road-project-public-consultation-1

That looks like an older plan from 2016 which this replaces along part of wilton road https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/consultation/wilton-corridor-project-phase-1-dennehy’s-cross-wilton-gardens

Markcheese

sheff_ wrote: »

It took c.20 years from the release of LUTS, much like the timescale of this plan. I’m not being overly hopeful of seeing it happen, but a tram line and 86km of bus lanes over 20 years would be a massive improvement on the last 5 years - maybe 1kn of new bus lanes if even that?

My parents moved to balincolig in the early 70s, at the back of the estate we lived in, was a large fenced off green area, which by rumor then, had to be set aside for light rail according to the lutz plan.. (it's still fenced off)
Nearly 50 years.. 😀

sheff_

Markcheese wrote: »

My parents moved to balincolig in the early 70s, at the back of the estate we lived in, was a large fenced off green area, which by rumor then, had to be set aside for light rail according to the lutz plan.. (it's still fenced off)
Nearly 50 years.. 😀

The old macroom line? It’s puzzling how they maintained most of it, but not all (around Ballincollig)

Markcheese

sheff_ wrote: »

The old macroom line? It’s puzzling how they maintained most of it, but not all (around Ballincollig)

Not really, I think that was further out of balincolig, (maglin Road I think), I think the railway disappeared in the 30s,
Ground bordering on to the kilumney road, as to Wether it was truth or story, there is a hell of a lot of space most of the way along the kilumney road...

hans aus dtschl

sheff_ wrote: »

That looks like an older plan from 2016 which this replaces along part of wilton road https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/consultation/wilton-corridor-project-phase-1-dennehy’s-cross-wilton-gardens

I saw this too. It's not the worst design they've ever done but the Cycle lane is unprotected for the majority of the design.
The "separation strip" is just paint, there's no protection from vehicles other than at the Wilton road bus stop.
No protection for cyclists from left-turning vehicles at any of the junctions, and the cycle lane effectively disappears at many conflict points.
The south bound cycle lane on Wilton Road ends abruptly at Wilton gardens.
Three different design types for bus stops on the Wilton road.
Those "box turns" for cyclists are in the cycle design manual alright but they're not great to be honest. I cycle a lot and I could see myself not knowing what to do at those junctions. Most people will just end up cutting across the traffic lanes unprotected and putting themselves in harms way.

Chris_5339762

The plan is fairly comprehensive, but I do fear for the N40. They say they'll do demand management measures, but even if that keeps traffic exactly as it is right now you are doing nothing about the absolute carnage that is going to happen when the 2 lanes of south ring, now having the blockage at Dunkettle removed, crash into four merging lanes of the M28 to go over the 2 lane Douglas Viaduct. It's going to be the countrys worst bottleneck possibly.

The light rail and buses etc are all very welcome, but there is really nothing much being done to increase the capacity of any mode going from Dunkettle through to Mahon. The tunnel is all there is, and it doesn't look like there is anything else planned. That just won't work.

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The plan is fairly comprehensive, but I do fear for the N40. They say they'll do demand management measures, but even if that keeps traffic exactly as it is right now you are doing nothing about the absolute carnage that is going to happen when the 2 lanes of south ring, now having the blockage at Dunkettle removed, crash into four merging lanes of the M28 to go over the 2 lane Douglas Viaduct. It's going to be the countrys worst bottleneck possibly.

The light rail and buses etc are all very welcome, but there is really nothing much being done to increase the capacity of any mode going from Dunkettle through to Mahon. The tunnel is all there is, and it doesn't look like there is anything else planned. That just won't work.

In addition to the fact that the CMATS plan doesn't provide for a large amount of car usage reduction, the public transport will just really cater for the demand caused by growth.

Long term Cork does need a functioning orbital and radial road system. It's now the only city in Ireland either without one or without one in the advanced stages of planning.

Dublin obviously has it's M1, M2 (6km extension planned), M3, M4, M7, M11 and N81 radials, in addition to the M50.

Limerick has the M7, M18, and M20 and M21 extensions both in planning, along with the motorway orbital. The N24 is the only missing link

Galway has the M6, M17 and M18 with the orbital ring with ABP.

Waterford in the next 10 years will have the M9, motorway/DC from Kilmeaden to New Ross and a fully dualled N24.

Meanwhile Cork will have the M8, M20, Ballincollig-Midleton southern link, and the M28. No North Ring, no M22, no M25, no M71.

normanbond

Is there anyone at home in Cork City Council Planning Dept?
This is yet another Rag Tag development that was granted planning for a 5 story student accommodation last year. The owners of this site have this week quietly applied to raise this eye sore application to an 8 story block of apartments!!
We have seen so many cheapy student apartments sprout up around the city.
They are huge and an absolute eyesore. Cork is a beautiful city because of it’s people but the landscape is shocking and cheap looking.
Planners don’t appear to care if the city landscape is a mixed bag of concrete items devoid of a theme or pattern.
The erection of cheap student flats in a Willy Nilly fashion is a serious blight on the city. Tourists ....leave your cameras at home!!

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Almost-2500-student-beds-being-developed-in-cork-as-a-fresh-application-is-lodged-with-City-Hall-1f0ff4cb-cf4f-494a-97d5-571ea92973ef-ds

*The planning application refers to 154 beds, not 174.
http://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/1938385/0

Danger781

normanbond wrote: »

Is there anyone at home in Cork City Council Planning Dept?
This is yet another Rag Tag development that was granted planning for a 5 story student accommodation last year. The owners of this site have this week quietly applied to raise this eye sore application to an 8 story block of apartments!!
We have seen so many cheapy student apartments sprout up around the city.
They are huge and an absolute eyesore. Cork is a beautiful city because of it’s people but the landscape is shocking and cheap looking.
Planners don’t appear to care if the city landscape is a mixed bag of concrete items devoid of a theme or pattern.
The erection of cheap student flats in a Willy Nilly fashion is a serious blight on the city. Tourists ....leave your cameras at home!!

You know it's going to be built on Victoria Cross / Wilton Road right? Are you telling me Victoria Cross is in some way picturesque or scenic? Between the big empty car showroom, the current student accommodation buildings and and the ruins of the old post office... One new building is not going to make Victoria Cross look any worse than it already is..

I welcome this new building with open arms. Get the students out of houses and into student apartments so professionals have more options nearer the city.

It's going right next door to an existing 4 storey building.. One of the most beautiful buildings in Cork! A big concrete block devoid of theme or pattern one might say...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hNW9C6Pg91YtHaEK7

whisky_galore

Danger781 wrote: »

You know it's going to be built on Victoria Cross / Wilton Road right? Are you telling me Victoria Cross is in some way picturesque or scenic? Between the big empty car showroom, the current student accommodation buildings and and the ruins of the old post office... One new building is not going to make Victoria Cross look any worse than it already is..

I welcome this new building with open arms. Get the students out of houses and into student apartments so professionals have more options nearer the city.

It's going right next door to an existing 4 storey building.. One of the most beautiful buildings in Cork! A big concrete block devoid of theme or pattern one might say...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hNW9C6Pg91YtHaEK7

Who says the student fleapits are going to be made available to professionals anyway? Did the owners all get together to decide to upgrade all their places to take professionals??

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Local elections town hall meeting in Douglas this evening and out of the 4 Fianna Fail and Fine Gael candidates in the electoral area, none turned up. Bizarre!

Markcheese

whisky_galore wrote: »

Who says the student fleapits are going to be made available to professionals anyway? Did the owners all get together to decide to upgrade all their places to take professionals??

Does anyone (apart from ucc) actually build student accommodation? I see lots of sites getting planning being flipped, and then going back for planning,
Is the value more in the potential than actually building?

lisasimpson

A house my friends lived I during their college years up in Lima Lawn in Wilton was sold in the last couple of years and is no longer a student house. One example of a number of houses in Glasheen Wilton Bishopstown that have been sold and done up by families or for rent to professionals. These were half decent houses not fleepits even when students rented them. Increase in student apartments should free up some more of these houses

Corkbiiy

Corkbiiy wrote: »

Well lads, looks like ye're asking the right questions, ones even they haven't answered to themselves.

RE free parking in mahon and wilton: good luck, they're private businesses, if they toll the car parks the shopping centers will be quickly deserted and Amazon will be more than happy to take up the business. It's probably the stupidest thing to come from the NTA to date, and I've heard of a lot of stupid from them, trust me.

Also, I remember getting the weekly shop (with my mother) in the Dunnes Patrick's Street (long before Blackpool Centre) and getting the Number 3 bus RIGHT to our door. It was a bloody nightmare one person trying to carry a weeks shopping on the bus (along with 30 other women doing the exact same).
And the bus literally ran by our door to a stop 30 metres away.
Some things just need the car.

Now for cinema, bars, restaurants, clothes shopping etc? No problem, I think that it could drive people INTO the city for such things, and away from the shopping centres actually. There is much better shopping in town, and much more relaxed too

hans aus dtschl

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Airport, Airport business park, Frankfield business park, South Link business park, Togher industrial estate, Kinsale road, Togher, Town, HollyHill.
It's not that there's no demand, it's that it's more difficult topography.

Add CUH and CIT to that.


CIT/CUH/Model Farm Road and Apple cause chaos both ways around Sunday's Well and through City

snotboogie

Markcheese wrote: »

Does anyone (apart from ucc) actually build student accommodation? I see lots of sites getting planning being flipped, and then going back for planning,
Is the value more in the potential than actually building?

BAM. Speaking of UCC student developments any updates on the Crows Nest? Seems to be quiet on site again.

fonecrusher1

normanbond wrote: »

Is there anyone at home in Cork City Council Planning Dept?
This is yet another Rag Tag development that was granted planning for a 5 story student accommodation last year. The owners of this site have this week quietly applied to raise this eye sore application to an 8 story block of apartments!!
We have seen so many cheapy student apartments sprout up around the city.
They are huge and an absolute eyesore. Cork is a beautiful city because of it’s people but the landscape is shocking and cheap looking.
Planners don’t appear to care if the city landscape is a mixed bag of concrete items devoid of a theme or pattern.
The erection of cheap student flats in a Willy Nilly fashion is a serious blight on the city. Tourists ....leave your cameras at home!!

Can't see what the problem is here. Victoria cross is hardly the hanging gardens of Babylon, even before the existing student accommodation was built. Student accommodation is needed and that area has unofficially become a student zone.

Between the existing eyesores that is the old Denneheys Cross Ford car dealers with the derelict Economy 7 shop next to it, the existing ugly 4 storey office block, the grotty Chinese Takeaway and the derelict Crows Nest pub its difficult to understand how you can pick this proposal out as an eyesore and not see the other existing eyesores.

Build it 10 floors high! Sure what's it detracting from? The local Tesco's express?

:pac:

who_me

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, I remember getting the weekly shop (with my mother) in the Dunnes Patrick's Street (long before Blackpool Centre) and getting the Number 3 bus RIGHT to our door. It was a bloody nightmare one person trying to carry a weeks shopping on the bus (along with 30 other women doing the exact same).
And the bus literally ran by our door to a stop 30 metres away.
Some things just need the car.

Very true. There are lots of journeys where people (ideally!) should never take the car - simple rush hour commutes along routes with plenty of bus options.

But there are plenty too that public transport just doesn't (and won't) work well for. Compound journeys (need to drop one kid off at school, one at child-minders, then head to work). Or even have one/two children in a stroller and want to cross your fingers the one space on the bus is free during rush hour? Or, as you say, any trip that involves carrying anything remotely big/heavy/awkward isn't suited to public transport. Need to travel onwards to a destination outside the city?

Big reductions in commuting (and school drop) traffic would be greatly welcomed, but eliminating cars is never going to happen. It's too much of a backward step in utility and convenience.

SleetAndSnow

https://twitter.com/robbie_mcgowan/status/1128989830245965824

fonecrusher1

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Between the existing eyesores that is the old Denneheys Cross Ford car dealers with the derelict Economy 7 shop next to it, the existing ugly 4 storey office block

This office block?
Because that is a listed building and "a prime example of its time" :rolleyes::rolleyes: