Lloyd England exposed was involved in 9/11 false flag event

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

US Government position it was 530mph. Pilots who have tried in real simulators can't do it explain it. The video is proof of this. They visited a pilot instructor working for airlines and he said he could do it.

It crazy you believe a commercial airliner can fly 530mph 2 to 3 feet from the ground. It not a stealth bomber or advanced fighter jet.

Explain all of the eye witnesses please.

Thanks.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

US Government position it was 530mph. Pilots who have tried in real simulators can't do it explain it. The video is proof of this. They visited a pilot instructor for the for the airlines and he said he could do it.

It crazy you believe a commercial airliner can fly 530mph 2 to 3 feet from the ground. It not a stealth bomber or advanced fighter jet.

Are you just going to ignore the opportunity I gave you to use your preferred top speed and field of view estimate then?

You and a couple of already debunked CT cranks are the only source for your position.
I notice that you have stopped banging on looking for the exact specs of the -223?
Why is that?
Where has your belief that that plane was built in 1982 gone?
Where has your position that the 757 couldn't travel as fast as Dohnjoe and I had claimed because it was an older and less powerfully engined model gone?

You are a contrarian crank who has presented zero proof in yet another CT thread...

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

US Government position it was 530mph.

Why do you keep avoiding the questions

How fast was your plane going? with proper sources and evidence

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

Are you just going to ignore the opportunity I gave you to use your preferred top speed and field of view estimate then?

You and a couple of already debunked CT cranks are the only source for your position.
I notice that you have stopped banging on looking for the exact specs of the -223?
Why is that?
Where has your belief that that plane was built in 1982 gone?
Where has your position that the 757 couldn't travel as fast as Dohnjoe and I had claimed because it was an older and less powerfully engined model gone?

You are a contrarian crank who has presented zero proof in yet another CT thread...

No proof you have the FDR data and the plane 180 feet above the highway. Care to explain it or just going to sidestep this as others have done? There no plane in the security tape either. You can waffle all day but the plane should be visible in the air when entered the frame. It had not yet hit the Pentagon there room and space before hit the wall. Never mind a large airliner flying in front of the camera would block the trees in the background.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Why do you keep avoiding the questions

How fast was your plane going? with proper sources and evidence

Wasn't going 530mph an hour. low to the ground. Rest is guesswork slower thats all I know. The pilot will try to decelerate at a low level so he did not miss the target. Buildings will be passing by in a flash at those uncontrollable speeds. I don't think you guys will ever get it.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

No proof you have the FDR data and the plane 180 feet above the highway. Care to explain it or just going to sidestep this as others have done? There no plane in the security tape either. You can waffle all day but the plane should be visible in the air when entered the frame. It had not yet hit the Pentagon there room and space before hit the wall. Never mind a large airliner flying in front of the camera would block the trees in the background.

I've explained 1FPS video capture to you.
Feel free to scroll back and reread it.

I've explained to you the absolute maximum number of video frames the aircraft could have appeared in and even generously overestimated the camera FOV.

The evidence laid out regarding the top speeds of the aircraft and its impact is based on actual consensus and research.
Performance as laid out by the Government, Boeing and a myriad of aviation experts.

You are attempting to counter that evidence, by trying to be loud and repetitive...
But without actually presenting any facts.
Do you see the issue?

I've even asked you to submit your own numbers to show how many frames the plane would appear in at your own preferred speed.
Be that the 493mph incorrect maximum you bang on about, or some other random number you want to claim (tho evidence of it would be appreciated)

You are a fraud, and an actual joke as a contributer.
I do notice that have abandoned your stance on the plane again?
Or are you going to address those questions?

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The pilot will try to decelerate at a low level so he did not miss the target.

Suicide pilots slow down?

You absolute gombeen!!!

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wasn't going 530mph an hour. low to the ground. Rest is guesswork slower thats all I know.

How can you not see this gaping hole in your argument?

You require absolute evidence for theory A, you require no evidence for theory B

How fast was your plane going? and the sourced evidence to support that precise speed

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

I've explained 1FPS video capture to you.
Feel free to scroll back and reread it.

I've explained to you the absolute maximum number of video frames the aircraft could have appeared in and even generously overestimated the camera FOV.

The evidence laid out regarding the top speeds of the aircraft and its impact is based on actual consensus and research.
Performance as laid out by the Government, Boeing and a myriad of aviation experts.

You are attempting to counter that evidence, by trying to be loud and repetitive...
But without actually presenting any facts.
Do you see the issue?

I've even asked you to submit your own numbers to show how many frames the plane would appear in at your own preferred speed.
Be that the 493mph incorrect maximum you bang on about, or some other random number you want to claim (tho evidence of it would be appreciated)

You are a fraud, and an actual joke as a contributer.
I do notice that have abandoned your stance on the plane again?
Or are you going to address those questions?

What evidence have you got the plane was going 530mph an hour? Provide the data you believe exists and proves this speed. I'll wait.

I provided the spec of the plane yesterday. Then you claimed the site number was an error and should be knots not mph.

Ignoring 493 knots is 570mph 530mph was the estimate of speed you provided.

Dohnjoe

Apologies for the incoming spam but I feel it's warranted considering the sheer amount of nonsense being posted in this thread (mainly by one user). Can remove this if it's too much text

Eyewitness statements:

Steve Anderson -- from 19th floor office in USA TODAY building in Arlington
Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.

Jeff and Deb Anlauf -- from 14th floor of Sheraton Hotel, 1.6 miles from explosion
Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window. You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon).

Gary Bauer -- in car just past exit on 395
We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn't until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon.

Mickey Bell -- near trailer in construction zone outside Pentagon
The jet came in from the south and banked left as it entered the building, narrowly missing the Singleton Electric trailer and the on-site foreman, Mickey Bell. Bell had just left the trailer when he heard a loud noise.

Sean Boger -- from heliport control tower
I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building. It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building.

Donald R. Bouchoux -- in car on Washinton Blvd along side of Pentagon
The aircraft crossed about 200 yards [should be more than 150 yards from the impact] in front of me and impacted the side of the building. There was an enormous fireball, followed about two seconds later by debris raining down. The car moved about a foot to the right when the shock wave hit.

James R. Cissell -- sitting in traffic on interstate by Pentagon
In the next blink of an eye, he realized he had a front-row seat to history, as the plane plowed into the Pentagon, sending a fireball exploding into the air and scattering debris - including a tire rim suspected of belonging to the airplane - past his car.

Mike Dobbs -- looking out window from Pentagon's outer ring
It seemed to be almost coming in slow motion. I didn't actually feel it hit, but I saw it and then we all started running.

Penny Elgas --
The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the plane slip into the building.

Bruce Elliot -- about to board shuttle in south parking lot
I felt it was going to ram the Pentagon ... the craft clipped a utility pole guide wire, which may have slowed it down a bit before it crashed into the building and burst into flames.

Kim Flyler -- in car in Pentagon parking lot
At that moment I heard a plane and then a loud cracking noise.... Right before the plane hit the building, you could see the silhouettes of people in the back two rows. You couldn't see if they were male or female, but you could tell there was a human being in there.

Joe Harrington -- in parking lot outside Pentagon
About two minutes later one of my guys pointed to an American Airlines airplane 20 feet high over Washington Blvd., It seemed like it made impact just before the wedge. It was like a Hollywood movie or something.

Albert Hemphill -- from window of Naval Annex
He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5. What instantly followed was a large yellow fireball accompanied by an extremely bass sounding, deep thunderous boom.

Jerry Henson -- from office in Pentagon (?)
The impact was quite clear. But it wasn't what you would think. It was just a loud kathump. Just a loud noise.

Terrance Kean -- from nearby 14-story apartment building
I saw this very, very large passenger jet. It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon. The nose penetrated into the portico. And then it sort of disappeared, and there was fire and smoke everywhere. . . . It was very sort of surreal.

William Lagasse -- from Citgo gas station near Pentagon
... he noticed a jet fly in low. He watched as the plane plowed into the Pentagon. Initially, he thought the plane was about to drop on top of him -- it was that close.

Lincoln Liebner -- running toward a Pentagon entrance
I was close enough that I could see through the windows of the airplane, and watch as it as it hit. There was no doubt in my mind what I was watching. Not for a second. It was accelerating. It was wheels up, flaps up, engines full throttle.

Lincoln Liebner -- running toward a Pentagon entrance
I was about 100 yards away. You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit. The plane came in hard and level and was flown full throttle into the building, dead center mass. The plane completely entered the building. I got a little repercussion, from the sound, the blast.

David Marra -- on an 1-395 exit just west of Pentagon
The plane rolled left and then rolled right. Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground. There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there, then the plane cartwheeled into the building.

Oscar Martinez --
I saw a big jet flying close to the building coming at full speed. There was a big noise when it hit the building.

Father Stephen McGraw -- on Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard
The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building. My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing.

William Middleton -- from is street sweeper in Arlington Cemetary
... the plane was no higher than the tops of telephone poles as it lurched toward the Pentagon. The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards before it tore into the building.

Christopher Munsey --
The plane, with red and blue markings, hurtled by and within moments exploded in a ground-shaking "whoomp" as it appeared to hit the side of the Pentagon. A huge flash of orange flame and black smoke poured into the sky.

Vin Narayanan -- sitting in traffic adjacent to Pentagon
The tail of the plane clipped the overhanging exit sign above me as it headed straight at the Pentagon. The windows were dark on American Airlines Flight 77 as it streaked toward its target, only 50 yards away. The hijacked jet slammed into the Pentagon at a ferocious speed. But the Pentagon's wall held up like a champ. It barely budged as the nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball.

John O'Keefe --
The eeriest thing about it, was that it was like you were watching a movie. There was no huge explosion, no huge rumbling on ground, it just went 'pfff'. It wasn't what I would have expected for a plane that was not much more than a football field away from me

Mary Ann Owens -- driving on road next to Pentagon
Once it passed, I raised slightly and grimaced as the left wing dipped and scraped the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon. Still gripping the wheel, I could feel both the car and my heart jolt at the moment of impact. An instant inferno blazed about 125 yards from me.

Mary Anne Ownes -- on road next to Pentagon
The plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon. The impact was deafening. The fuselage hit the ground and blew up.

Christine Peterson -- on road adjacent to helipad
It was so close that I could read the numbers under the wing. And then the plane crashed. My mind could not comprehend what had happened. Where did the plane go? For some reason I expected it to bounce off the Pentagon wall in pieces. But there was no plane visible, only huge billows of smoke and torrents of fire.

Frank Probst -- in the construction yard outside Pentagon
I saw this plane coming right at me at what seemed like 300 miles an hour. I dove towards the ground and watched this great big engine from this beautiful airplane just vaporize. It looked like a huge fireball, pieces were flying out everywhere.

Lt. Commander John Sayer -- riding on a bus
It sounded like a very loud clap. At first I thought an airplane had hit in front of the Pentagon, but when I got closer I saw that it had struck the Pentagon.

Noel Sepulveda -- in the Pentagon parking lot
You could hear the engines being revved up even higher. The plane dipped its nose and crashed into the southwest side of the Pentagon. The right engine hit high, the left engine hit low. For a brief moment, you could see the body of the plane sticking out from the side of the building. Then a ball of fire came from behind it. An explosion followed.

Skarlet -- on road adjacent to Pentagon
As I came up along the Pentagon I saw helicopters. (...) it was headed straight for the building. It made no sense. (...) A huge jet. Then it was gone. A massive hole in the side of the Pentagon gushed smoke. The noise was beyond description.

Joel Sucherman --
The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror- struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away.

Tony Terronez -- from car on road adjacent to Pentagon
This huge WHOOSH! And something made me look in my rearview mirror and by the time I looked up I saw the side of the Pentagon explode. I was stunned. It was just so surreal, like something out of a movie, like Die Hard. The side of a building just exploded! As the fireball got higher and higher, you saw this debris go up in the air.

Carla Thompson -- from about 1000 yards away from crash
glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building. I saw an indentation in the building and then it was just blown-up up--red, everything red.

Phillip Thompson -- Sitting in traffic in I-395 HOV lane
... saw an American Airlines jet come overhead and slam into the Pentagon, it all came back. I heard the scream of a jet engine and, turning to look, saw my driver's side window filled with the fuselage of the doomed airliner.

Tim Timmerman -- from 16th floor apartment
... it had been an American Airways 757. It added power on its way in. The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball. Smoke and flames poured out of a large hole punched into the side of the Pentagon.

Tim Timmerman -- from 16th floor apartment
and as is went ... by the Sheraton Hotel, the pilot added power to the engines. I heard it pull up a little bit more, and then I lost it behind a building. And then it came out, and I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames.

Mike Walter -- sitting in traffic on northbound 27
And I aw it. I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings. It went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon. Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out.

Dave Winslow --
I saw the tail of a large airliner ... It ploughed right into the Pentagon.

Steve Anderson -- From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington
I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball.

Micky Bell -- just left trailer in construction yard
The jet came in from the south and banked left as it entered the building, narrowly missing the Singleton Electric trailer and the on-site foreman, Mickey Bell.

David Marra -- had just turned his BMW off an I-395 exit to the highway
"The plane rolled left and then rolled right. Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground." There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there ..

Mary Ann Owens -- driving along by the side of the Pentagon
Once it passed, I raised slightly and grimaced as the left wing dipped and scraped the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon.

Jack Singleton -- in or near trailer in construction yard
"The plane's left wing actually came in near the ground and the right wing was tilted up in the air."
Right Wing Hits Generator

Lee Walker Evey --
On its way in, the wing clipped. Our guess is an engine clipped a generator. We had an emergency temporary generator to provide life-safety emergency electrical power, should the power go off in the building. The wing actually clipped that generator, and portions of it broke off.

Frank Probst -- on a sidewalk alongside Route 27, near the Pentagon's western face
He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart.
Flaps Up

Richard Benedetto -- driving on the Highway parallel to the Pentagon
I didn't see any flaps, it looked like the plane was just in normal flying mode but heading straight down. It was straight.

Albert Hemphill -- from office in Naval Annex with view toward east
It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed.

William Lagasse -- from Citgo gas station near Pentagon
The 757's flaps were not deployed and the landing gear was retracted.

Lincoln Liebner -- running toward a Pentagon entrance
"It was wheels up, flaps up, engines full throttle."

Phillip Thompson -- Sitting in traffic in I-395 HOV lane
But, strangely, the landing gear was up and the flaps weren't down.
Plane Clips Lamp-Posts

Hagos Afework -- stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon
It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.

Lee Walker Evey --
The plane approached the Pentagon about six feet off the ground, clipping a light pole, a car antenna, a construction trailer and an emergency generator before slicing into the building, said Lee Evey, the manager of the Pentagon's ongoing billion-dollar renovation.

D.S. Khavkin -- eighth floor of building in Arlington with panoramic view
First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles, then headed directly for the Pentagon and crashed on the lawn near the west side the Pentagon.

Stephen McGraw --
I had no awareness of the incoming plane until it was above our cars, having knocked over the street lamp at the edge of the road.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I provided the spec of the plane yesterday. Then you claimed the site number was an error and should be knots not mph.
.

Why do you lie?
Scroll back to where you claimed that yesterday and I corrected you.

So you accept you do not actually know what a -223 is versus a -200?

As for the impact speeds, you are the one who is adamant it was not at the speeds claimed and outlined in the publicly available reports.
To that end it is incumbent upon you to present proof that those reports are incorrect.

And fairly clear proof of the actual impact speed is surprising as it may seem to you, the lack of the aircraft actually being visible for anything more than a partial frame of 1FPS video.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What evidence have you got the plane was going 530mph an hour? Provide the data you believe exists and proves this speed. I'll wait.

I provided the spec of the plane yesterday. Then you claimed the site number was an error and should be knots not mph.

Ignoring 493 knots is 570mph 530mph was the estimate of speed you provided.

Why do you always do this?

Why do you always demand people answer your questions yet you constantly deflect away from (or even worse, ignore) questions asked of you?

Why not post honestly for once? Questions have been asked of you, instead of ignoring/deflecting why not try a new tactic and actually reply to them and answer them? Then maybe people will take you seriously and answer your questions.

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

Suicide pilots slow down?

You absolute gombeen!!!

You clearly don't understand speed too. He be gone past the Pentagon and he would even realise it at 530mph

Pilot decelerate when their landing and dropping to the ground. According to you, they speed up?

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You clearly don't understand speed too. He be gone past the Pentagon and we would even realise it at 530mph

Pilot decelerate when their landing and dropping to the ground. According to you they speed up?

You are now comparing landing an aircraft, to deliberately crashing an aircraft into a building with the intention of causing maximum damage?

I am at a loss for words as to the outright stupidity of this particular one!

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pilot decelerate when their landing and dropping to the ground. According to you, they speed up?

They weren't landing...

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

You are now comparing landing an aircraft, to deliberately crashing an aircraft into a building with the intention of causing maximum damage?

I am at a loss for words as to the outright stupidity of this particular one!

It matters because buildings are flashing by at 530mph an hour. He navigating on his own with no autopilot. Have you experienced 530mph low to the ground?

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It matters because buildings are flashing by at 530mph an hour. He navigating on his own with no autopilot. Have you experienced 530mph low to the ground?

Personally not under 7000ft no.
Are you aware of any pilots flying civilian aircraft who have?
Who have taken on a suicide mission with the aim of striking a blow at the infidel enemy?
And who shared their experience of throttling back, deploying flaps and coasting gently into the building they wish to destroy?

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

They weren't landing...

He was coming down all the time in flight. The Pentagon performance report says the plane dropped to just 2 to 3 feet above the ground. It a tiny bit of space any wrong movement on the yoke the engines are hitting the ground.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He was coming down all the time in flight. The Pentagon performance report says the plane dropped to just 2 to 3 feet above the ground. It a tiny bit of space any wrong movement on the yoke the engines are hitting the ground.

What about all the witnesses?

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

Personally not under 7000ft no.
Are you aware of any pilots flying civilian aircraft who have?
Who have taken on a suicide mission with the aim of striking a blow at the infidel enemy?
And who shared their experience of throttling back, deploying flaps and coasting gently into the building they wish to destroy?

It's common sense you slow down below ground to hit the Pentagon. Hani Hanjour could even handle a light Cessna aircraft weeks before in the air before 9/11. If you are a pilot you should know this story doesn't make sense.

Even the New York Times reported on it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/04/us/a-trainee-noted-for-incompetence.html

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He was coming down all the time in flight.

A professional pilot tried to explain the speed issue to you yesterday and you quite clearly have just stuck your head in sand again.

Now you seem to be claiming that suicide pilots slow down, and coast into their targets.

What do you think happens to IAS when a pilot at full power descends?
Do you understand the phrase "trading altitude for airspeed" means?

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It's common sense you slow down below ground to hit the Pentagon. Hani Hanjour could even handle a light Cessna aircraft weeks before in the air before 9/11. If you are a pilot you should know this story doesn't make sense.

There is nothing common about your sense mate.
And as was again explained to you by a professional yesterday.
There is a world of difference between steering a plane to a target and actually flying.

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

A professional pilot tried to explain the speed issue to you yesterday and you quite clearly have just stuck your head in sand again.

Now you seem to be claiming that suicide pilots slow down, and coast into their targets.

What do you think happens to IAS when a pilot at full power descends?
Do you understand the phrase "trading altitude for airspeed" means?

I just highlight this for you. New York Times.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot.

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''

Dohnjoe

"Nah I don't get it, looks impossible to me, so it didn't happen"

"Which means some big conspiracy happened, nah don't know the details of it, don't need them, it's the only explanation"

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I just highlight this for you. New York Times.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot.

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''

He didn't need to fly.
That seems to be completely beyond your ken however.
There is a world of skill required to undertake low level high speed flight that very few people have and tbh requires years of continuous training.

But as has been explained to you, and blithely ignored...
Flying requires consummate skill...
Steering towards a building on a one way ticket is an altogether different proposition and skill is not a requisite.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Hani Hanjour could even handle a light Cessna aircraft weeks before in the air before 9/11. If you are a pilot you should know this story doesn't make sense.

Wait so who was flying the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?

Was speed was it going?

Was it definitely flight 77?

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"Nah I don't get it, looks impossible to me, so it didn't happen"

"Which means some big conspiracy happened, nah don't know the details of it, don't need them, it's the only explanation"

None of his instructors said he was a capable pilot. They even said he was a bad pilot.

Yet he the supposed pilot who dropped a commercial airliner to 2 to 3 feet of the ground and flew it and hit the Pentagon. Real pilots with years of experience said they can't do not at that speed.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

None of his instructors said he was a capable pilot. They even said he was a bad pilot.

Yet he the supposed pilot who dropped a commercial airliner to 2 to 3 feet of the ground and flew it and hit the Pentagon. Real pilots with years of experience said they can't do not at that speed.

Because fear of death and years of ingrained training go against every fibre of a professional pilots being in a situation like that.
A pilots primary concern is the safety of his passengers and aircraft.

However a suicide terrorist with low piloting skills not so much

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

Because fear of death and years of ingrained training go against every fibre of a professional pilots being in a situation like that.
A pilots primary concern is the safety of his passengers and aircraft.

However a suicide terrorist with low piloting skills not so much

Takes no skill whatsoever to fly a commercial airliner good one, we should all just jump in the seat and fly a plane.

To level a plane off at 2 to 3 feet of the ground requires a lot of skill. Are you really a pilot?

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Takes no skill whatsoever to fly a commercial airliner good one, we should all just jump in the seat and fly a plane.

To level a plane off at 2 to 3 feet of the ground requires a lot of skill. Are you really a pilot?

There is copious evidence proving that the maneuver undertaken in particular the turn prior to the final run can be undertaken by inexperienced stick handlers.

There is also the fact that the target the stick man was aiming for would present as @1400ft wide on its widest point.
Making it easily visible, not that it would be hard to notice the building from the start of an 8000ft descent.

You persist with the belief that Hanour needed to be a skilled pilot.
He didn't, he needed a lack of fear and a modicum of luck.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

. Are you really a pilot?

And I wasn't referring to myself when I mentioned the experienced professional pilot.
Another poster with many years experience joined the thread yesterday.

I fly recreationally though.

Cheerful Spring

banie01 wrote: »

There is copious evidence proving that the maneuver undertaken in particular the turn prior to the final run can be undertaken by inexperienced stick handlers.

There is also the fact that the target the stick man was aiming for would present as @1400ft wide on its widest point.
Making it easily visible, not that it would be hard to notice the building from the start of an 8000ft descent.

You persist with the belief that Hanour needed to be a skilled pilot.
He didn't, he needed a lack of fear and a modicum of luck.

757 uses a control wheel and a Yoke, not a stick.

Of course, it matters. Luck has nothing to do with it. You need to be an experienced pilot to control a plane on the ground. The ground effect needs to be managed and only capable pilots can handle it.

I agree to disagree on this.

banie01

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

757 uses a control wheel and a Yoke, not a stick.

Of course, it matters. Luck has nothing to do with it. You need to be an experienced pilot to control a plane on the ground. The ground effect needs to be managed and only capable pilots can handle it.

I agree to disagree on this.

Stickman / Stick handler is a colloquialism for a pilot.
And you know nothing about ground effect other than the misinformation you have gotten hold of.

What do you think is the effect of ground effect at high speed?
Its also not as if there was a prolonged period of low level flight to contend with.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Of course, it matters. Luck has nothing to do with it. You need to be an experienced pilot to control a plane on the ground. The ground effect needs to be managed and only capable pilots can handle it.

who was flying the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?

Was speed was it going?

Was it definitely flight 77?

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Takes no skill whatsoever to fly a commercial airliner good one, we should all just jump in the seat and fly a plane.

To level a plane off at 2 to 3 feet of the ground requires a lot of skill. Are you really a pilot?

I could put you in an 18 wheeler articulated lorry tomorrow and you wouldn't be able to drive it.

I could have you as a passenger in the same lorry on an empty motorway, put it on cruise control and let you take over the wheel, you wouldnt be "driving" it you would just be steering it.

Do you see the difference?

banie01

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I could put you in an 18 wheeler articulated lorry tomorrow and you wouldn't be able to drive it.

I could have you as a passenger in the same lorry on an empty motorway, put it on cruise control and let you take over the wheel, you wouldnt be "driving" it you would just be steering it.

Do you see the difference?

That is actually a fantastic analogy!

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

who was flying the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?

Was speed was it going?

Was it definitely flight 77?

I don't think anyone truly knows who flew the plane. The US government position still is Hani Hanjour was the pilot, I doubt it. How can they know this to be true? It not like they had video footage of him flying the plane? Maybe Flight 77 was taken over remotely it not like this technology did not exist in 2001. Operation Northwoods talked about taking over a plane and flying it remotely to the target.

I told you I don't know. There not a shred of evidence flight 77 was going 530mph when hit the Pentagon. The 9/11 commission can claim 530mph I don't buy this for a second.

Did Flight 77 exist at all? In my opinion, the plane seen north of the Cisco service station did crash at the Pentagon.

I don't support the US government position the plane hit the Pentagon coming in from the Southwest. T

the FDR data does not match up, the eyewitnesses dispute this approach, Loyld England said the light pole incident happened at the cemetery (northside) gopher6 the military pilot said the plane was coming in from the northeast and the Pentagon damage does not match a plane hitting the Pentagon at an angle (southwest). I don't know exactly what it all means but there a conspiracy there.,

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't support the US government position the plane hit the Pentagon coming in from the Southwest. T
,

104 people saw it happen in broad daylight.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

104 people saw it happen in broad daylight.

Read what I said. A plane crashed at the Pentagon.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Nal wrote: »

104 people saw it happen in broad daylight.

Read what I said. A plane crashed at the Pentagon.

So you are back to you previous silly position that it was an A-3.
You are pathetic.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't think anyone truly knows who flew the plane. The US government position still is Hani Hanjour was the pilot, I doubt it. How can they know this to be true? It not like they had video footage of him flying the plane? Maybe Flight 77 was taken over remotely it not like this technology did not exist in 2001. Operation Northwoods talked about taking over a plane and flying it remotely to the target.

I told you I don't know. There not a shred of evidence flight 77 was going 530mph when hit the Pentagon. The 9/11 commission can claim 530mph I don't buy this for a second.

Did Flight 77 exist at all? In my opinion, the plane seen north of the Cisco service station did crash at the Pentagon.

I don't support the US government position the plane hit the Pentagon coming in from the Southwest. T

the FDR data does not match up, the eyewitnesses dispute this approach, Loyld England said the light pole incident happened at the cemetery (northside) gopher6 the military pilot said the plane was coming in from the northeast and the Pentagon damage does not match a plane hitting the Pentagon at an angle (southwest). I don't know exactly what it all means but there a conspiracy there.,

So you don't know anything but you are completely sure of it

banie01

So we are back to CS rabbiting on about his "theory"!
While ignoring evidence, specifications, official reports and scientific consensus.

Even when offered the opportunity to give his own suggested speeds and work out from that how many frames of 1FPS video the aircraft should appear in at his preferred speed he refused to do it.

Deflection, ignoring questions, ignoring actual evidence whilst presenting no alternative evidence that hasn't already been thoroughly debunked.

The only reason people are even bothering to reply to him anymore is to highlight the actual hypocrisy on display.
CS can dismiss reams of actual consensus, scientific and professional evidence out of hand...
And present nothing, absolutely nothing other than CT crank theory in rebuttal

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Read what I said. A plane crashed at the Pentagon.

104 people saw a plane hit the building.......from the southwest.

26 could even identify the branding on the plane ie American Airlines

39 others identified it as a large jet/commercial airliner.

We know for sure an American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon from the Southwest, Cheerful Spring of course ignores this.

smurfjed

Oh boy where do I start......

FDR data has the plane 180 feet in the air at the 9.47am moment of impact. At this altitude, the plane would have flown past the Pentagon.
(and again posted...)
FDR data had Flight 77 180 feet above the highway at 9.37am when supposedly crashed. How did the plane crash at this height? How did get down to 20 feet in less than a second?

Where does the FDR get its height information from and what relationship does this have with real height?

I not confused had a thread discussing true north and magnetic heading in Washington DC. There is a positive and negative value to be added depending on where your plane is.

I asked you about BEARING and HEADING, how did TRUE and MAGNETIC get involved? Do you know the magnetic variation for Washington?

This was tried in an actual simulator by a qualified pilot. The results are not surprising.

That video was so funny, apart from the fact that it was a cheap ass simulator, did you notice that it had FOUR throttles for FOUR engines? Plus there is a big mental difference between someone who wants to disprove something versus someone who has a single minded focus and hopes to get his 46 virgins.

Pilot decelerate when their landing and dropping to the ground. According to you, they speed up?

Generally planes slow down to LAND, in this case he really didn't give a ****.

It's common sense you slow down below ground to hit the Pentagon

Below GROUND? anyway see my answer above this one.

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''

The truck analogy given above is perfect.

Takes no skill whatsoever to fly a commercial airliner good one, we should all just jump in the seat and fly a plane. 

Did you the reports of the guy who stole a propeller airliner in Washington state and did aerobatics before he crashed it? He wasn't a pilot.

He didn't, he needed a lack of fear and a modicum of luck.

So so true.

The 9/11 commission can claim 530mph I don't buy this for a second.

You know the length of the aircraft, they have video of the aircraft approaching the building, then its a case of mathematics to calculate the speed.

So many questions, so lets start with the first one, what is the difference between BEARING and HEADING?

Dohnjoe

Also the maneuver is quite doable and has been replicated. On a Dutch conspiracy show, a novice on a simulator managed to hit the Pentagon 3 out of 3 times (can post video later as I am in work)

Dohnjoe

From the recovered Flight Data Recorder of flight 77, the final moments, note the airspeed

smurfjed

We used to bring friends in to fly real simulators, you would be very surprised how someone like me with very little knowledge of how a 747 worked could teach people how to land it.

The next time I do "upset recovery" training, I should video it so that you can see how rapidly we can end up 100 kts faster than the max speed thanks to that wonderful thing called GRAVITY.

Dohnjoe

smurfjed wrote: »

We used to bring friends in to fly real simulators, you would be very surprised how someone like me with very little knowledge of how a 747 worked could teach people how to land it.

The next time I do "upset recovery" training, I should video it so that you can see how rapidly we can end up 100 kts faster than the max speed thanks to that wonderful thing called GRAVITY.

Yup, but the "conspiracy" answer to this is always incredulity that simulators can't perfectly replicate the exact real world effects of wind, pressure, the stresses on the aircraft, blah blah

and then of course quickly turn the debate around, demanding that you "prove" to them a simulator replicates the forces exactly (which of course is an impossibility)

watch this space..

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So you don't know anything but you are completely sure of it

Did I say Flight 77 was not the plane that crashed at the Pentagon? You posting info from last year or maybe two years ago can't remember.

My argument is the plane was further to the north and came in more straight. Flew in at a slower speed and Hani was not the pilot.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Also the maneuver is quite doable and has been replicated. On a Dutch conspiracy show, a novice on a simulator managed to hit the Pentagon 3 out of 3 times (can post video later as I am in work)

Never said was not possible. Of course, you can hit the Pentagon. What speed what he going at please do let's see what speed he hit the Pentagon at.