Lloyd England exposed was involved in 9/11 false flag event

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

And AFAIR, these pictures are from a crowd who are arguing that it was a missile that hit the pentagon. Something which cheerful has denied previously and described as crazy.
Not sure if that's something ruby subscribes to, as they have not been very open or forthcoming about their beliefs for some reason.

Also I'm not sure if that conspiracy crowd also subscribe to the notion of holographic planes, but their images sure are used a lot by those who do...

Note how neither are not addressing the damage to the Pentagon (or any other questions) The level of sheer dishonesty here is staggering.

Malaysian Airliners flight 370 - that's a mystery, we still don't know what happened, look it up on any reference, wikipedia, etc, to this day it's an open case.

But the Pentagon attack? we know what happened, there is no mystery, case is closed. Yet here we have individuals suggesting something else happened, but they won't even explain what that something is..

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

But the Pentagon attack? we know what happened, there is no mystery, case is closed. Yet here we have individuals suggesting something else happened, but they won't even explain what that something is..

I think there's a few possibilities here:

They know what they believe can't stand up to even the barest level of questioning thus are purposefully avoiding being open about it.

They don't actually have a solid belief as that isn't as important as it being a conspiracy in the first place. Anything will do as long as it's a conspiracy and they can flip back and forth between beliefs when it suits.

They are only regurgitating what they are told by conspiracy theory websites who don't supply a solid alternative narrative for the same reasons above.

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You just claimed there was multiple aircraft or another aircraft from flight 77

What is your evidence there was multiple aircraft?

What is your evidence there was "another" aircraft?

To make things even more incredible, you've spent months and months stating, as fact, that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Yet here you are agreeing with someone who claims a plane didn't hit the Pentagon.

Which is it?

Is it Shrodingers plane, it both missed the Pentagon and hit the Pentagon?

A flight data recorder (FDR; also ADR, for accident data recorder) is an electronic device employed to record instructions sent to any electronic systems on an aircraft. The data recorded by the FDR are used for accident and incident investigation.

The airplane can only be on the south-side for the official story to be true:cool:

Unfortunately for Dohnjoe and friends the FDR does not show it on that side. You have to show us evidence the NTSB animation released is not genuine and true? You apparently cannot see why the official story disputed here

Yes but feelings have nothing to do with it.. If flight 77 crashed at the Pentagon it did not crash in the way the government said it did.

The Northside plane direction true, or the Southside direction true., which is it?

The only way people see two planes, there was two planes flying to the Pentagon at the same time of the day?

The Northside direction is legitimate, then Ruby version of what happened at the Pentagon makes a lot more sense.

Southside direction does not support Ruby conspiracy. I just want to know where the plane was i have little care for feelings here and what you believe happened here Dohnjoe.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The airplane can only be on the south-side for the official story to be true:cool:

According to you did Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon or not?

Was it flight 77?

Were there multiple planes?

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

According to you did Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon or not?

Was it flight 77?

Were there multiple planes?

Is the FDR supporting the official flight path? You refuse to give us an honest. answer.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Is the FDR supporting the official flight path? You refuse to give us an honest. answer.

The FDR data corroborates the ATC and flight radar data, we know the approximate route Hani took.

Note the simple questions and answers:

Did a plane hit the Pentagon? Yes
Which side? the western side
Which plane? AA Flight 77
Piloted by who? Hani Hanjour
What time? Approx 9:37 Sept 11

Yet in your personal imagination that did happen and it didn't happen. The plane flew over, the plane flew into, there were multiple planes, flight 77 "didn't exist"..

You literally post a video of the plane hitting the Pentagon - then you also entertain that it didn't..

So did a plane hit the Pentagon or not? and which plane was it?

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The FDR data corroborates the ATC and flight radar data, we know the approximate route Hani took.

Note the simple questions and answers:

Did a plane hit the Pentagon? Yes
Which side? the western side
Which plane? AA Flight 77
Piloted by who? Hani Hanjour
What time? Approx 9:37 Sept 11

Yet in your personal imagination that did happen and it didn't happen. The plane flew over, the plane flew into, there were multiple planes, flight 77 "didn't exist"..

You literally post a video of the plane hitting the Pentagon - then you also entertain that it didn't..

So did a plane hit the Pentagon or not? and which plane was it?

Hani was not photographed in the airplane cabin pilot seat, so how you can say 100 percent he was the pilot?
The only evidence Hani was even there to hijack a plane is the few minutes of Dulles Airport tape the US government releases that show men going through the security baggage gate. That tape has no date of the month or timestamp. From Insurance company files the hijackers boarded flights from Dulles airport pre 9/11 attack. Is the footage from 9/11? Why would they even carry luggage bags when they’re going to die onboard the plane?

Route matters here because the South path plane knocking over the 5 light poles in a particular pattern. The northside plane can’t knock the 5 light poles the same way the US government depicted in their diagrams. The direction actually matters plenty, you have not got that point yet and probably never will!!!

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Hani was not photographed in the airplane cabin pilot seat, so how you can say 100 percent he was the pilot?

Who was then?
Was there a pilot seat.

Could you post all of the photos you have of the plane flying along the path you believe?
And the photos of the plane flying over the pentagon and away.
And the photos of people planting the fake evidence that Flight 77 crashed into the pentagon.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Hani was not photographed in the airplane cabin pilot seat, so how you can say 100 percent he was the pilot?

How do historians know Henry the Eighth existed if there's no photograph of him?

How are thousands of people convicted of murder when there's no photograph of them at the murder scene or committing the murder?

Think.

These types of comments display a shocking lack of understanding about basic concepts

The Nal

Dohnjoe wrote: »

How do historians know Henry the Eighth existed if there's no photograph of him?

How are thousands of people convicted of murder when there's no photograph of them at the murder scene or committing the murder?

Think.

These types of comments display a shocking lack of understanding about basic concepts

Even if there was a photo, its authenticity would be disputed. Such as the airport video of them going through security, Oswalds back yard photos etc.

Dohnjoe

The Nal wrote: »

Even if there was a photo, its authenticity would be disputed. Such as the airport video of them going through security, Oswalds back yard photos etc.

"Hold on Hani, don't crash yet, we need to take a photo of you in the pilot's seat"

- "Why??"

"In the future there will be conspiracy theorists who won't believe it's you.."

- "What!? I boarded the plane in my own name! I purchased a first class ticket! I was filmed going through the metal detector! I am friends and roommates with the other hijackers! I trained to fly planes with them! I took constant cross-country flights with them to test security! My DNA will be found in the wreckage! any basic investigation will immediately show it's me with no other suspects, plus I'll be dead, how in ****s name will anything think it's not me?"

"Trust me, we need that photo"

The Nal

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"Hold on Hani, don't crash yet, we need to take a photo of you in the pilot's seat"

- "Why??"

"In the future there will be conspiracy theorists who won't believe it's you.."

- "What!? I boarded the plane in my own name! I purchased a first class ticket! I was filmed going through the metal detector! I am friends and roommates with the other hijackers! I trained to fly planes with them! I took constant cross-country flights with them to test security! My DNA will be found in the wreckage! any basic investigation will immediately show it's me with no other suspects, plus I'll be dead, how in ****s name will anything think it's not me?"

"Trust me, we need that photo"

Lets not forget that some people (Cheerful) claims that the a lack of footage not showing Tower 7 being rigged with explosives is proof that Tower 7 was rigged with explosives.

Dohnjoe

The Nal wrote: »

Lets not forget that some people (Cheerful) claims that the a lack of footage not showing Tower 7 being rigged with explosives is proof that Tower 7 was rigged with explosives.

But wait Cheerful 100% believes people planted explosives in the building but doesn't have photographic evidence of them planting explosives..

So how does that work?

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

How do historians know Henry the Eighth existed if there's no photograph of him?

How are thousands of people convicted of murder when there's no photograph of them at the murder scene or committing the murder?

Think.

These types of comments display a shocking lack of understanding about basic concepts

You love your comparisons and analogies

It’s a silly observation and comparison when they’re a good deal of evidence to show Henry VIII was the King of England. You’re claiming in this instance to know 100 percent, the pilot of Flight 77 was Hani Hanjour? Where you onboard the plane to see it?

Forgetting here is this information told is unsound when it's the neoconservatives belief. The neocons managed and controlled all the 9/11 investigations after Sep 11th. These same leaders lied continually about everything after 9/11 but for 9/11 they had a conscience and told the truth there?

Hani Hanjour hijacked a plane. The video is the only evidence for it. That video absent all identification markings like date, time, and so forth. It can’t be substantiated to be from that day with no date and time here. You not interested in have all the details of a crime.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You’re claiming in this instance to know 100 percent, the pilot of Flight 77 was Hani Hanjour? Where you onboard the plane to see it?

No I'm not, you're attributing that falsely to me.

The evidence points to Hani piloting the flight that crashed into the Pentagon, there are no other suspects, there is no other credible theory. Therefore it's currently widely accepted that Hani piloted the flight.

If you look it up on any credible site, that's the information you will find, because that's what the evidence supports. That's the conclusion I support.

We don't say 100% or 1000% because technically it's possible one of the other terrorists literally took the controls at some stage in the flight. It's clear from your comments that you have extreme difficulty understanding any of these basic nuances (or you are wilfully misunderstanding them). No one can help you with that but yourself.

Cheerful Spring2

The Nal wrote: »

Lets not forget that some people (Cheerful) claims that the a lack of footage not showing Tower 7 being rigged with explosives is proof that Tower 7 was rigged with explosives.

We have good deal of proof for a conspiracy. The structural collapse published by NIST is impossible. They even admit on video they had to invent a new progressive collapse here to illustrate the collapse on that day. They removed construction fittings from the structural steel and that’s highly irregular practice to model a break that way. You model that building with its fittings in place, that how the building was before 9/11.

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No I'm not, you're attributing that falsely to me.

The evidence points to Hani piloting the flight that crashed into the Pentagon, there are no other suspects, there is no other credible theory. Therefore it's currently widely accepted that Hani piloted the flight.

If you look it up on any credible site, that's the information you will find, because that's what the evidence supports. That's the conclusion I support.

The only evidence is the unverified security video. There no footage of Hani in other places at this airport. The men seem to have superpowers to avoid all the cameras outside the airport, duty free and walk areas. Are we saying here this only footage of the men at the airport?

Why would the tape have no time and date? Airport tape with no date and time doesn't make sense.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The only evidence is the unverified security video. There no footage of Hani in other places at this airport. The men seem to have superpowers to avoid all the cameras outside the airport, duty free and walk areas. Are we saying here this only footage of the men at the airport?

Why would the tape have no time and date? Airport tape with no date and time doesn't make sense.

So then who did pilot the plane? Where is the photos you have of this person?

Or if you are not completely changing your stance, could you provide a photo of the missile being launched?

The Nal

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

We have good deal of proof for a conspiracy.

We don't. There is no proof. There isn't even any credible evidence. Its been 19 years. No one has come forward. This conspiracy would've had to involve so many people, someone would've talked or slipped up.

Washington is the leakiest city in the world. With every passing year a conspiracy becomes less likely. Hence why the truther movement is dead, apart from the odd internet forum.

King Mob

The Nal wrote: »

We don't. There is no proof. There isn't even any credible evidence. Its been 19 years. No one has come forward. This conspiracy would've had to involve so many people, someone would've talked or slipped up.

We're also waiting for a coherent, rational alternative explanation for events.

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

We're also waiting for a coherent, rational alternative explanation for events.

"The plane flew at and then over the Pentagon"

If there's a book detailing this theory, it has one line, that's it.

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"The plane flew at and then over the Pentagon"

If there's a book detailing this theory, it has one line, that's it.

Why?
"Dunno. It's not my job to think of it. It doesn't have to make sense."

Cheerful Spring2

The Nal wrote: »

We don't. There is no proof. There isn't even any credible evidence. Its been 19 years. No one has come forward. This conspiracy would've had to involve so many people, someone would've talked or slipped up.

Washington is the leakiest city in the world. With every passing year a conspiracy becomes less likely. Hence why the truther movement is dead, apart from the odd internet forum.

Your hypothesis is there will be hundreds of individuals involved in the planning stage, carrying it out, and the cover up? In my mind, this point of view is false.

US government states 19 men hijacked planes on 9/11 and yet there’s only video of 8 to 9 suspects.. US/ the FBI and State department and the Saudi Embassy has not provided background knowledge and material about their lives previously and we cannot track the 10 unknown suspects stay in the United States. If their evidence FBI not released it yet to the public.

The US established a detailed narrative of an organization called Al Qaeda based around Mohammed Atta flight 11 pilot, Ziah Jarad flight 93 pilot, and Hani Hanjour Flight 77, Marwan al-Shehhi is the alleged Flight 175 pilot.
Either way, for discussion here 4 planes got hijacked and those 19 men are dead

The bank documents the FBI got from the middle east reveal it was Saudi Pakistan and Muslim brotherhood money, the 9/11 hijackers debited from their customer account.
Everyone who taken the time here to research knows Bin laden funded no operation here to attack America.

Got plenty of evidence to confirm who financed this operation, and we also have an idea who the hijackers depended on inside the United States. Current evidence is middle east Sunni states engaged and helped this terrorist activity to hit America and the US / Bush neocon administration hide that intelligence from the US population after 9/11. This is a no longer a mystery now some media sites like Fox News are explaining the truth to the America public, and even mainstream paper media outlets, said the Saudis played a fundamental role helping the hijackers carry out the 9/11 attack.

The hidden conspiracy is was there, an organization that destroyed towers and building seven and what hit the Pentagon. Flight 93 shot down by a fighter jet?
How many people would have to know for it to be a successful event?
There’re enough evidence to establish facts- the CIA covered up the travel movements of the 9/11 hijackers for two years, for what reason, we nevertheless don’t know today.
This is not evidence the CIA knew of a group that was going to place demolitions in buildings before the attacks. For me its shows an intention to hide information about men plotting to carry out a terrorist attack inside America!

Either way, if men at the elite level of intelligence, military, business, ordered military trained demolition crews to install devices inside the buildings before 9/11, how many people outside of it would need to know about the operation?
Debunkers claim hundreds? Personally i think less than 30 people maybe less than that. Its an undercover operation/ black ops event and controllers would want to keep this group small as possible to avoid exposures. Conspirators would not pick men who would babble to the media.

They plan events like this for months and months if not years. People who would dare to do it, will have access to exotic explosive components, yet debunkers are silly and believe they would use normal grade explosives here and leave an easy find blueprint behind for the FBI how they did it?
The nanothermite was not an easy find. Years of testing had to be done to confirm the properties of the material. Debunkers will keep pulling the wool over people’s eyes the demolition event required hundreds, if not thousands of people to carry off, its a deflection.

They could carry out the entire demolition operation with 30 to 20 people. How many leaders? We don’t know that, could be 5 10, 15, but its not hundreds!!

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Your hypothesis is there will be hundreds of individuals involved in the planning stage, carrying it out, and the cover up? In my mind, this point of view is false.

You also said it was false that flight 77 hit the pentagon. You changed your mind on that when it suited you.
You then said it was false that the plane flew over and away from the pentagon. You changed your mind on that also.

You have also repeated added dozens of people at a time to the conspiracy when it suited you.

How many people were involved in faking the attack at the pentagon? Who were they? What did they do?

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

They could carry out the entire demolition operation with 30 to 20 people. How many leaders? We don’t know that, could be 5 10, 15, but its not hundreds!!

Laughable.
Ruby, do you share this opinion?
How many people do you believe were involved in faking the pentagon attack?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Your hypothesis is there will be hundreds of individuals involved in the planning stage, carrying it out, and the cover up? In my mind, this point of view is false.

Personal speculation and rationalisations are not evidence of anything.

If I rationalise that e.g. a team of around 20 guys could have planted explosives in some building and then blown it up, cool but that isn't evidence

That is a rationalisation. In my imagination. In my head.

I can describe how I think they did it, where it was planted, how much was used, what was used, how they got in, how they got out, how they dodged the cameras, how they covered it up, who told them to do it, etc, etc

It doesn't mean anything, it's not evidence of anything but my own imagination. It doesn't matter how "plausible" it sounds, it doesn't matter how detailed it sounds, it is completely worthless and meaningless with proper evidence

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I can describe how I think they did it, where it was planted, how much was used, what was used, how they got in, how they got out, how they dodged the cameras, how they covered it up, who told them to do it, etc, etc

And conspiracy theorists can't even do this much.

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Personal speculation and rationalisations are not evidence of anything.

If I rationalise that e.g. a team of around 20 guys could have planted explosives in some building and then blown it up, cool but that isn't evidence

That is a rationalisation. In my imagination. In my head.

I can describe how I think they did it, where it was planted, how much was used, what was used, how they got in, how they got out, how they dodged the cameras, how they covered it up, who told them to do it, etc, etc

It doesn't mean anything, it's not evidence of anything but my own imagination. It doesn't matter how "plausible" it sounds, it doesn't matter how detailed it sounds, it is completely worthless and meaningless with proper evidence

Creating a narrative in your mind here that’s untrue.

You rule out a controlled demolition based on what evidence?
What you overlook is a local failure on one floor has never resulted in a total collapse of steel-framed high rise building ever. Fact is fire never brought down a steel framed Skyscraper before 9/11 or after the event since. This is not make belief or a conspiracists opinion, its a pure fact of the real world. You ignore NIST, even admit they had to create a brand new alternative theory from thin air to explain the collapse on 9/11.

When people with a different opinion reviewed this local collapse where NIST says the event started the progressive collapse, they noticed NIST miscalculated the math in that area and even removed constructions fittings from the girder they alleged caused the progressive collapse. In what world is removing construction fittings from a girder considered genuine science?

NIST modelling a global collapse with missing fittings and they lied claiming this fittings whrere not on the drawings they had. In 2013 5 years after their study the Frankel steel construction for building seven got cleared for release and NIST lies were proved they had left 32 steel/concrete stiffeners off here, girder web plate missing and girder fasterners missing all this items stop the girder from moving off its seat laterally.

NIST modelled the failure without so they could start a fake collapse in their finite collapse model. Thats how we know the demolition theory sound when NIST faking a event that could never have happened. There denial of freefall is another sign, of their lies, they had to create another false narrative to explain that.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Creating a narrative in your mind here that’s untrue.

You rule out a controlled demolition based on what evidence? There denial of freefall is another sign, of their lies, they had to create another false narrative to explain that.

And again, when you've been backed into a corner on one topic you try to distract and deflect and evade to another topic.
Usually its one you've been cornered on and humiliated yourself in before.

Again, there's a reason why no other conspiracy theorists are jumping to your aid. You're making them look bad.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

They could carry out the entire demolition operation with 30 to 20 people.

So a conspiracy that involves hijacking 4 commercial jetliners, crashing them into skyscrapers and then doing a fly by on the Pentagon, landing somewhere else killing everyone on board while simultaneously shooting a missile into the Pentagon and detonating (somehow secret) pre planted explosives in 3 of the most secure and biggest buildings on earth....

30 people. Comedy gold.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Creating a narrative in your mind here that’s untrue.

The "secret Nazi" narrative only exists in your head, nowhere else

You rule out a controlled demolition based on what evidence?

There's no details of it. What are the names of the guys who did this? how many were there? how much explosive was used? where was it planted?

No one can answer the most elementary questions about it, because it doesn't have any details. It's just a fantasy people have created to explain a conspiracy they think might have happened but have no details of