Is the new Feminist movement damaging male female relationships?

cantdecide

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't think it's just at the moment that girls get better results it's just that today girls have higher expectations and stay in education.

This is the thing. Girls figure out what's better for them earlier. By the time some of the boys realise the consequences of inertia, the education systems has often spat them out. I think there should be more schemes open to all but aimed at boys in this category to get them back into education.

meeeeh

kunst nugget wrote: »

Why do they have higher expectations and stay in education more than boys?

My point is that historically boys were the ones who went to education, girls were educated to be wives or operate in domestic environment. Girls probably always matured earlier but you need for them to stay in education or go for traditionally male studies to see gender differences in results.

jimgoose

meeeeh wrote: »

I agree but even if you change the system chances are girls will still outperform boys.

Now you haz done a Sexualism and ai iz triggered.

Anne1982h

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

This above sums up my view.

What is wrong with genuine opinions on the 8th - I think people have the right to go - I'm uncomfortable with abortion as a concept , I think it is a life.
People are entitled to have that opinion and have it respected. You can disagree with them - and that is fine. But they don't hate women.

Then on the rape trail - that was a narrative that all men need to change. It was a very disrespectful angle as I know 100s of incredibly decent men and what went on in that case - had no resemblance to the decent and good character of these men - all fathers, brothers, uncles, grandads, friends to women who love them.

The current climate is shutting down conversation and debate. Sad times. The extremes are defining the middle ground.

I think the whole issue of opinions on abortion is tough for women to hear. I have been trying very hard to check myself and not get angry when someone disagrees with repeal. Not because different opinions aren’t allowed or because their opinion is different to mine but as they want to enforce their opinions on me and my life choices even though they don’t know my personal situation. I know what’s best for me so it’s genuinely hard to hear. Even more so when it’s something that might damage my health and well-being.

Re the rape trial I’ve found men to be worse than women on this. If you look up the thread ‘a typical male WhatsApp group’ on boards as an example most of the male posters seem to be saying you’re stupid if you don’t think ALL men talk and act like that when women aren’t around. I said the men in my life weren’t like that and was told they are ‘playing a good game’ fooling me.

Zubeneschamali

super_furry wrote: »

These male MGTOW, Incel, PUA movements and the rest are much more damaging to male female relationships than feminism ever could be.

Well, to their members relationships with females, yes. That's only going to help relatively normal lads, though.

Max Prophet

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

And what of the entitled attitude of some women towards men's bodies, Hapax?

Dirty lasses! The one you hope to find !

jimgoose

Anne1982h wrote: »

...I said the men in my life weren’t like that and was told they are ‘playing a good game’ fooling me.

They're wrong.

Grayson

Icemancometh wrote: »

I made two claims. First that the numbers of female teachers is far higher than male teachers, and second that girls are getting far better outcomes from our education system at the moment. I don't think either of these are controversial claims, but I could get the figures for you if you like.

Are you saying they are related to the poor performance of boys?
Because if you're not it's a random post. You could have said classrooms have whiteboards instead of blackboards.

If you are saying it's related to the poor performance, have you got any proof?

DEFTLEFTHAND

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Your in trouble when you say some of your best friends are women.

But is there a real risk that the "movement" at present, is very damaging to male female relationships ?

Some of my best friends are women - they work in a very male dominated area of science and technology. Yes that is wrong - but they are changing things one day at a time and doing the work of real change and influence.

Recently I've found some women talking to me in the context of the Belfast Rape trial - as if this should define my relationship with women. It is a bit odd.

I've had incredible professional relationships with women - due to my admiration at their problem solving - mathematically ability - abstract ability to solve problems.

But now - I'm told unless you are on board with the 8th and the the Belfast rape trail you have issues and sort of are against the movement. :eek:

It is dangerous times - and the progress that has been made in the last 40 years is being thrown away with the baby in the bath water.

Should the same apply to female dominated areas such as Nursing and Teaching?

Or is that on average men and women tend to excel in different career paths.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

When I suggested that we should change the way cummans are organised so we get more women into politics I was told that it's wrong to make any changes. If women aren't in politics it's their own fault.

Fault? No. Not fault. Choice.

Unless you're telling me that women cannot get into Politics the same way that men do? That there is active discrimination against women?

I'll freely admit that I tend to avoid politics as such.

There are people here who think that changing anything to help women is wrong. However I'd be surprised if any of them object to your suggestions.

I'm not one of them. I have no problem with helping women, as long it is improving their ability to be equal. Just as I would think the same for men. Helping men or women to be more than equal, though....

I'm all in favor of small changes in policy to help certain groups. Public policy shouldn't be static and monolithic. IT should be something that constantly shifts and changes to adapt to different times and situations to make sure no-one is at an unfair disadvantage.

Completely agree. Although I would note, I'd like to see more research/planning before changes are implemented. There seems to be too much change happening just for short term approval rather than considering the effects of such changes in ten, or twenty years time.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I agree but even if you change the system chances are girls will still outperform boys.

Any proof to back that up?

I'd love to see the evidence to show that males are less intelligent or less capable of learning than females.

beefburrito

Sugar and spice and all things nice....

That's the sht we had to sing going to school during the 70's

Absolutely disgraceful, talk about us all being equal...

Nothing worse than being made think you're made of puppy dog's tails...

Made a lad want to puff the magic dragon...

Am I allowd to say puff?

Icemancometh

Grayson wrote: »

Are you saying they are related to the poor performance of boys?
Because if you're not it's a random post. You could have said classrooms have whiteboards instead of blackboards.

If you are saying it's related to the poor performance, have you got any proof?

I imagine they might be, but it'd be fairly hard to prove. Not sure how'd one go about gathering evidence for it. Certainly I can think of no reason why boys shouldn't be doing as well as girls academically, and I think our education system is failing boys as it stands. Given the dearth of male teachers, particularly at primary level, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the gender imbalance at teaching as a possible contributor to the gender imbalance in outcomes.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Fault? No. Not fault. Choice.

Unless you're telling me that women cannot get into Politics the same way that men do? That there is active discrimination against women?

I'll freely admit that I tend to avoid politics as such.



I'm not one of them. I have no problem with helping women, as long it is improving their ability to be equal. Just as I would think the same for men. Helping men or women to be more than equal, though....



Completely agree. Although I would note, I'd like to see more research/planning before changes are implemented. There seems to be too much change happening just for short term approval rather than considering the effects of such changes in ten, or twenty years time.

You could say that some males are choosing to do badly in education. After all if some do well, why don't others?

We have a political system that has seen the most women ever in the dail at 26%. That's the max it's ever been. If we had an educational system that meant that only 26% of school leavers were male, or males only got 25% the results of women, then we'd have problems.

In other countries with different candidate selection systems they have greater female participation in politics. So logically there's a good possibility there's something wrong with our system.
If we're willing to change a school system to help boys why not change a political system to help women?

Icemancometh

Grayson wrote: »

Are you saying they are related to the poor performance of boys?
Because if you're not it's a random post. You could have said classrooms have whiteboards instead of blackboards.

If you are saying it's related to the poor performance, have you got any proof?

I had a quick google there. A lot of recent studies based on female teachers lowing female students performance in maths, but heavily disputed it seems. This doctoral thesis would suggest there is a difference in female primary students performance in reading growth with a female teacher, but that it is marginal. It also suggest no effect on maths or attendance. So it's possible that having female teachers is a net positive for girls, without being negative for boys. Positive overall, but might contribute to inequality.

Way OT at this stage!

manonboard

meeeeh wrote: »

Who said that? The imagination is quite impressive here.

The foot path one was from the 'give way' campaign a few years ago (5ish?) that was designed to help women feel safer if they are walking along the same footpath as a guy and its late at night. Obviously it could be dangerous so i can see their intent.

The silence stuff was from my experiences in a Feminist meetup group in Dublin one day that was focused on the topic of 'Sexism in the workplace"

Yes, I'd agree about the idiots remark. Open minded people, or people with some calm demeanor towards their reactions are usually pretty easy to get along with. Unfortunately i think feminism like alot of movements, is largely observed from its more mouthy often more reaction/less calm proponents.

Icemancometh

Grayson wrote: »

You could say that some males are choosing to do badly in education. After all if some do well, why don't others?

We have a political system that has seen the most women ever in the dail at 26%. That's the max it's ever been. If we had an educational system that meant that only 26% of school leavers were male, or males only got 25% the results of women, then we'd have problems.

In other countries with different candidate selection systems they have greater female participation in politics. So logically there's a good possibility there's something wrong with our system.
If we're willing to change a school system to help boys why not change a political system to help women?

No problem with changing the political system myself, hopefully we can have more women elected in the coming years, and I hope to see some changes in education too. But I think there is a categorical difference. With politics, we are at least talking about adults, who have the strong ability to effect change in the world. With education, we are talking children, with limited agency. These boys are having their options in life limited before they finish adolescence. It's a bit glib to say they are choosing to do poorly.

Grayson

Icemancometh wrote: »

I imagine they might be, but it'd be fairly hard to prove. Not sure how'd one go about gathering evidence for it. Certainly I can think of no reason why boys shouldn't be doing as well as girls academically, and I think our education system is failing boys as it stands. Given the dearth of male teachers, particularly at primary level, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the gender imbalance at teaching as a possible contributor to the gender imbalance in outcomes.

but it's easy to research. You look at countries with standardised tests and see if boys classes with male teachers perform better on average than classes with female teachers.
You could even prepare your own tests and give them to the classes.

Income matters though. It doesn't matter if they're a boy or girl. If their parents are straight or gay or single. The biggest single factor to change the chances of a child succeeding is how much money their family have.

cantdecide

Grayson wrote: »

We have a political system that has seen the most women ever in the dail at 26%.

Political life can be hell and I'd never do it and that's my choice. However, women would want to step up and shoulder their part of the burden fully.

Icemancometh

Grayson wrote: »

but it's easy to research. You look at countries with standardised tests and see if boys classes with male teachers perform better on average than classes with female teachers.
You could even prepare your own tests and give them to the classes.

Income matters though. It doesn't matter if they're a boy or girl. If their parents are straight or gay or single. The biggest single factor to change the chances of a child succeeding is how much money their family have.

Oh you're absolutely right about income. Educational achievement by parents is also a huge factor. I can't imagine the gender imbalance in teaching is nothing, but I also imagine it's way down the scale on impacts on children's education.

Icemancometh

Icemancometh wrote: »

Given the dearth of male teachers, particularly at primary level, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the gender imbalance at teaching as a possible contributor to the gender imbalance in outcomes.

I didn't do well in the leaving certificate. Slightly below Average points. I actually entered schooling a fluent Irish speaker, and left incapable of speaking the language. I failed my fresher year in Computer Science. I switched to Business Studies, and I consistently failed my exams the first time around (passing the repeats), until I left University with a Diploma, rather than the full degree.

Now... I have an 1st class Honors degree in Business Studies, an MBA (top 3%), I have both the CELTA & DELTA qualification, various professional finance related certificates, two NLP practitioner diplomas and a full NLP practitioners degree. I also speak four languages including the languages that I studied so badly in school.

I taught myself to learn effectively. School certainly didn't teach me how to organise information in a manner I could remember effectively, it certainly didn't encourage me to understand the information, and gave me very little reason as to why the information was going to be useful for me.

Education is mass produced. It's inefficient and extremely prone to disregarding the genuine needs of its students. Passing it off on to gender differences is an excuse for the failure of educational methodology.

I find it bizarre the way that people look at our educational system and don't demand a better way that helps individuals rather than blocks of faceless students. We have the knowledge (learning science is going through a massive shift now), and we have the technology. Boys failing in classes doesn't mean they are any less intelligent than females... it just means that females are better at the system currently in place.

cantdecide

Deleted User wrote: »

Education is mass produced. It's inefficient and extremely prone to disregarding the genuine needs of its students. Passing it off on to gender differences is an excuse for the failure of educational methodology.

I'll have to find some sources again but I remember reading statistics regarding project work and how boys do better in project work in general but do best alone where girls do better in groups and tend to do better in exam situations.

Appledreams15

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I agree that the vast majority of people don't care or tune out but that doesn't change the fact that third wave feminism is having an ever increasing negative effect. Social change sneaks up on society. Much of the changes in Sweden and Iceland for example happened gradually. I'm not saying we are at that stage of course, but certain people in powerful positions are absolutely attempting to navigate us in that direction.

It's not our generation that will feel it first either. It's the younger generation as they are the ones that are in the firing line when it comes to gender politics. You just have to look at the aftermath of the recent rugby trial to see what a grip these people have on a certain section of youth culture. That influence gives them leverage which they can use to manipulate certain fractions into doing what they want. Women's rights groups protested the IRFU all last week, giving interviews daily about how they need to remove these players to show that they won't stand for misogyny and that's pretty much what they have done.

Feminist activism today is largely destructive and whether the public at large pays any attention to them or not is irrelevant as they will affect change regardless. They don't want equality of opportunity, like old school feminists rightly fought for, they want equality of outcome and they are damn well getting it. I was only speaking with a play writer last week who told me that he was seeing excellent work passed over for very mediocre offerings just because the writer was a woman and this is all on the back of changes that are being implemented following the 'Waking the Feminists' pushing for a diversity and equality strategy throughout the national theatre.

These might seem like quite trivial issues, but what we are seeing now is just a taste of what's coming down the line.

Or is it that people in power want to hold onto power?

We have been flagged for human rights abuses of women in Ireland.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't do well in the leaving certificate. Slightly below Average points. I actually entered schooling a fluent Irish speaker, and left incapable of speaking the language. I failed my fresher year in Computer Science. I switched to Business Studies, and I consistently failed my exams the first time around (passing the repeats), until I left University with a Diploma, rather than the full degree.

Now... I have an 1st class Honors degree in Business Studies, an MBA (top 3%), I have both the CELTA & DELTA qualification, various professional finance related certificates, two NLP practitioner diplomas and a full NLP practitioners degree. I also speak four languages including the languages that I studied so badly in school.

I taught myself to learn effectively. School certainly didn't teach me how to organise information in a manner I could remember effectively, it certainly didn't encourage me to understand the information, and gave me very little reason as to why the information was going to be useful for me.

Education is mass produced. It's inefficient and extremely prone to disregarding the genuine needs of its students. Passing it off on to gender differences is an excuse for the failure of educational methodology.

I find it bizarre the way that people look at our educational system and don't demand a better way that helps individuals rather than blocks of faceless students. We have the knowledge (learning science is going through a massive shift now), and we have the technology. Boys failing in classes doesn't mean they are any less intelligent than females... it just means that females are better at the system currently in place.

Nice turn around , its common enough with men that they only hit their groove later or a good manager points them in the right direction.
Education is screaming out for a tech revolution , you can already see it on sites like the maths site Khan Academy, kid finds it and it undoes all the bad teaching the kid may have come across prior

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

You could say that some males are choosing to do badly in education. After all if some do well, why don't others?

I was a teacher for seven years abroad at university level... I'd suggest motivation is one of the key factors, but there are heaps of reasons as to why one student fails but another doesn't. IMHO Intelligence is rarely the reason. Same with gender.

We have a political system that has seen the most women ever in the dail at 26%. That's the max it's ever been. If we had an educational system that meant that only 26% of school leavers were male, or males only got 25% the results of women, then we'd have problems.

You didn't answer my question. Is there any discrimination involved in the lack of female politicians, or is it simply that women are more interested in other careers?

If we're willing to change a school system to help boys why not change a political system to help women?

Because we already have equality laws which protect a womans ability to apply for a position, work towards that position within the framework of the industry, and to be protected against discrimination against her.

If you can show me that women are being excluded from politics, then sure, I'll definitely accept that change is needed.

Appledreams15

Deleted User wrote: »

I was a teacher for seven years abroad at university level... I'd suggest motivation is one of the key factors, but there are heaps of reasons as to why one student fails but another doesn't. IMHO Intelligence is rarely the reason.



You didn't answer my question. Is there any discrimination involved in the lack of female politicians, or is it simply that women are more interested in other careers?



Because we already have equality laws which protect a womans ability to apply for a position, work towards that position within the framework of the industry, and to be protected against discrimination against her.

If you can show me that women are being excluded from politics, then sure, I'll definitely accept that change is needed.

We are 50 per cent women and 50 per cent men. Women have never been anyway near half represented in politics. Of course they have been discriminated against.

silverharp

Appledreams15 wrote: »

We are 50 per cent women and 50 per cent men. Women have never been anyway near half represented in politics. Of course they have been discriminated against.

by other women then :pac:

givyjoe

Appledreams15 wrote: »

We are 50 per cent women and 50 per cent men. Women have never been anyway near half represented in politics. Of course they have been discriminated against.

How exactly? And if they were, how exactly are they still being discriminated against?

Appledreams15

silverharp wrote: »

by other women then :pac:

By all male parties refusing to nominate a female candidate..actually

Appledreams15

givyjoe wrote: »

How exactly? And if they were, how exactly are they still being discriminated against?

They had to bring in gender quotas to get predominatly male parties to nominate at least 30% female candidates.

They were not even nominating 30% female candidates before this.

Surely you know this is true. It is evident.