Male carer for toddlers and its impact on kids

Mr.H

Glass fused light wrote:

Not sure what you mean by "my views"?

To be fair it is a sexist view

Glass fused light

Mr.H wrote: »

Any man or woman working as a carer is hopefully well capable of being a great carer to your child. Regardless of your child's gender sex .

Sex not Gender.
Gender and the child's perception of its gender is a whole different ball game.

Glass fused light

Mr.H wrote: »

To be fair it is a sexist view

Where did I express a sexist view?

Mr.H

Glass fused light wrote:

Sex not Gender. Gender and the child's perception of its gender is a whole different ball game.

It is still a gender issue. It would be nice if we brought our kids up to believe that both genders are natural and equal.

Glass fused light wrote:

Where did I express a sexist view?

I'm not saying you did. I am saying the view is a sexist one.

Choosing a woman instead of a man because of their gender is sexist.

GreeBo

kerten wrote: »

I can't follow your logic to be honest. If someone/something puts my kid at risk, I won't care who or what it is to decide if I should protect my kid and I educate her to be ready for the pattern leading the risk not the individual's race or color or gender.

What pattern? The only pattern you have raised is that you believe the stats show more men abuse children.
Based on this you want your child to avoid being in situations such as bathrooms with men.
There is no pattern you are guiding her to be ready for.

The pattern you should be teaching her, as raised by another poster was how to look out for abuse. The gender is irrelevant.

kerten wrote: »

I feel like thread got too long to be read fully and I already became a racist bigoted potential molester and someone who will grow up kids with discrimination as a ultimate motive.

I read the thread from the start thanks. You havent posted anything that logically backs up what you are worrying about.

kerten wrote: »

After some research and posts in this topic, I can see that my fear is based on 10% of the total reported cases where attacker is not part of the family and we are at relatively low risk group for this particular risk.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/statistics-and-information/child-protection-register-statistics-england.pdf

You also avoided my question, if the stats showed blondes committed more child abuse, would you keep your child away from blonde people?
If not then you are being sexist.

bp

I got as far as reading the comments on page four so this may have been covered...

OP I can understand your concern and I think we all have some level of fear deep down about our children being hurt by a "bad man". How many parents dont allow their kids on sleep overs anymore because of this? I get strange looks due to having a male baby sitter but the kids are asleep and he just sits down stairs playing computer games.

Personally I would not have a problem with this as at this age as I dont see it affecting them in later life (personal opinion). Honestly as a parent (and having being a child myself who did stupid things) I would be more concerned about them taking their clothes off when told by other children or peer pressure or idiocy. My 3 year old just arrived into the house naked as his older cousin and sister told him too

shesty

See this is it.
I mean it's one thing to worry about a male carer in a protected caring environment where people need to be vetted etc in order to be employed.On the "risk" scale that is actually quite low in comparison to say, random men (family or otherwise) having unsupervised access to your child at random times.

The child is currently in a relatively protected environment.The bigger thing for me (as I previously said) and that you only realise as they get bigger, is that they are able to say no when they aren't comfortable with something, that they realise their body is their own and it's ok to tell well-meaning relatives etc that they would rather not hug right now, or whatever,and that they know it isn't ok for any randomer to touch them or "help" them or whatever when going to the toilet and that kind of thing.And that they can judge, like bp's 3 year old what is ok and what is not when it comes to nudity and other kids.Kids get into these situations as they get a bit bigger, with total innocence because they just haven't a clue.In the situation you are describing, yes I do understand your fears, but on balance, it is a much lesser risk than some of what is ahead.

Glass fused light

Mr.H wrote: »

It is still a gender issue. It would be nice if we brought our kids up to believe that both genders are natural and equal.

As of 2015 it's a sex based issue.

Unless the OP would have no objection to a person of the female gender with male genitalia looking after his child.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/section/18/enacted/en/html

Mr.H wrote: »

I'm not saying you did. I am saying the view is a sexist one.

Choosing a woman instead of a man because of their gender is sexist.

I am correct in this refers to the OP?

Mr.H

Glass fused light wrote:

Unless the OP would have no objection to a person of the female gender with male genitalia looking after his child.

The whole gender identity thing is rubbish.

You are either born as a male or a female. Choosing to be something else does not change your gender (imo of course)

Glass fused light wrote:

I am correct in this refers to the OP?

Yes

panevthe3rd

kerten wrote: »

I am not comfortable with this because of the daily message being given to my daughter as it is ok to be touched by male person who is not her father or at least in families social circle at 2 years of age.

But any pro male carer article claims it is perfect for kids because  kids need male role models to learn from. As a father  I prefer lack of  male role model in creche hours over  more vulnerable kid against strangers on the street.
Don't take me as close minded individual resisting change. I am perfectly fine with male carer when kid is over 4years old where she doesn't need support in toilet, etc 
I would like to hear your view on this topic to understand what I can do next other than moving my kid to another creche if current one can't address my concern.

I left the first part in because I would be more in mind to teach my child what kind of touching is bad as opposed to who is doing the touching. Like said already 90% of abuse is someone the child already knows. This is in part because they trust them and wouldnt understand that whats happening is wrong.

The second bit makes me think that you might be feeling a bit of guilt about having your child in a creche at all. Nothing wrong with that. We'd all spend more time with our kids of we could.

Might be wrong on that one though.

SortingYouOut

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

I feel sorry for your child OP. You will do her far more damage than any one else.

With a comment like that, you've proven that you're not in a state to look after a goldfish, never mind a child.

Moonbeam

I was absolutely delighted that my childs creche had male and female workers.
Are you going to send her to an all girls school with only female teachers?
I really think that your issue is unfounded and maybe if you address your issue it might help you.

Moonbeam

Something just dawned on me. is it for religious reasons?

Glass fused light

Moonbeam wrote: »

Something just dawned on me. is it for religious reasons?

Doubtfully, as the OP is ok with a male carer after his child is 4.

Moonbeam

I was trying to rationalise it .

MarkR

kerten wrote: »

I have a 2.5 years old  daughter who didn't go through potty training yet and atteding to  full time childcare for last 18 months. Today I am told that one of her carers will be male. 
I am not comfortable with this because of the daily message being given to my daughter as it is ok to be touched by male person who is not her father or at least in families social circle at 2 years of age.
I am not concerned about the individual being a pervert or anything like that. My concern is reducing the barrier of accepting requests of strangers on the street for my kid.
When I raised this I am thrown at usual lines below;
- It is discrimination against man and it is a sin in these days so you should back off. 
- Why is it different than female carer changing nappies of a male toddler
- Studies shows having male carers are great for kids personality development
Considering most of the perverts on street attacking young kids(boy or girl) are male, none of the above address my concern about my own kid though. 
It is not possible to measure how vulnerable a kid become to a child abuser on the street due to message given in early ages. But any pro male carer article claims it is perfect for kids because  kids need male role models to learn from. As a father  I prefer lack of  male role model in creche hours over  more vulnerable kid against strangers on the street.
Don't take me as close minded individual resisting change. I am perfectly fine with male carer when kid is over 4years old where she doesn't need support in toilet, etc 
I would like to hear your view on this topic to understand what I can do next other than moving my kid to another creche if current one can't address my concern.

All men are not perverts. If you have hangups about other people minding your kids, mind them yourself. Shocking.

Glass fused light

Moonbeam wrote: »

I was trying to rationalise it .

It's not rational, a male care giver is suspect but a meet once a year male relative or male best friend is ok. The age ceiling of being 4 is not rational either.


The OP could print this out and stick it on the fridge.

Neyite wrote: »

Look, maybe it's a good thing that this has forced you to think hard about child protection. I hope you come to realise that if the carer is fully vetted and supervised that your fears are unfounded.

It's never too early to begin teaching our children about bodily autonomy.

The younger the better. You teach her the proper names of private parts,
answer questions as honestly and in an age appropriate way as possible rather than lying. You teach that during tickle fights or playing if someone says stop, the other person has to stop.

Things like insisting she kisses Aunt Mabel or is forced to dole out hugs to all and sundry when she really doesn't want to will erode that bodily autonomy of hers far quicker than a male professional changing her nappy while his colleague is right beside him changing another child.

When she's potty trained, you build on that and explain about bathroom privacy, and explaining that its private unless something is sore and then it gets looked at by a parent or doctor to fix it.

You tell her that secrets are only supposed to make you feel happy and nice - like planning a surprise for mammy, and that if someone tells her a secret that makes her feel sad or scared, that she should always tell her parents because they can help.

You make sure that you know who are the people around her, and pay attention to her interacting with adults. If she's odd with someone, don't force it, it could be just a toddler phase but don't override it on her.

If she's odd with someone, don't force it, it could be just a toddler phase but don't override it on her.
This applies to all age groups, one of the neighbours has a young teen daughter, in various activities, she did not get on with one of the leaders in one. Just a clash of personalities, nothing sinister. But the daughter would not engage on a personal level, if she did not agree with the conversations etc. One of the other leaders commented to the mam that she should have a talk with the child to "make her be friends". Q the comment back that she has spent 10+ years teaching her child about personal boundaries, the importance of being able and willing to say no, and that it was ok to not be friends with someone while still participating and being polite.

shesty

I could not agree more. This is by far the most important thing to take from the whole conversation.

rizdub

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

iamwhoiam

rizdub wrote: »

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

we can keep arguing about gender equality etc but no amount of training can make u go against whats human brain is hard wired/embedded with...

Do you have the same problem with a female changing a boy ? Just interested ? And your brain being wired or embedded is no excuse for being judgemental . Just re wire your brain by training it to be open minded

ectoraige

OP, do you change your daughter's nappies?

If you have a son, would you have a problem with women changing his nappies?

Ultimate Seduction

rizdub wrote: »

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

we can keep arguing about gender equality etc but no amount of training can make u go against whats human brain is hard wired/embedded with...

Can't we just excuse racism and all the other isms with " ah shur that's the way I'm wired" ?

The Specialist

rizdub wrote: »

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

we can keep arguing about gender equality etc but no amount of training can make u go against whats human brain is hard wired/embedded with...

If you are implying what I think you are, you need to have a long hard look at yourself.

rizdub

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Do you have the same problem with a female changing a boy ? Just interested ? And your brain being wired or embedded is no excuse for being judgemental . Just re wire your brain by training it to be open minded

i am not posting to make an argument ..its my personal experience and how i feel about it.. may be others feel differently or its just their thoughts without really going through it..

EdgeCase

What a depressing thread! Why are you trying to instill a totally irrational fear of males in your child?

Proper care, oversight and accountability is needed in all situations where you've children and vulnerable people generally, and that's something Ireland simply did not provide in the past.

Accusing someone of being a potential child abuser simply because of their gender is frankly ridiculous and potentialy defamatory - it's even more so when you consider that we know fine well that horrific physical, emotional and sexual abuse occured in institutions here in the past run by both genders. Being female didn't prevent various institutional staff in "care homes" absolutely destroying children's lives.

I grew up with plenty of male careers ranging from my junior infants teacher, to my dad, grandad and uncles and they were all fantastic. I think that's quite likely not an unusual experience. I grew up with plenty of female careers too and they were also fantastic.

What you're talking about is sexism - pure and simple.

eeguy

rizdub wrote: »

we can keep arguing about gender equality etc but no amount of training can make u go against whats human brain is hard wired/embedded with...

And what's that?

iamwhoiam

rizdub wrote: »

i am not posting to make an argument ..its my personal experience and how i feel about it.. may be others feel differently or its just their thoughts without really going through it..

Would you be as quick to declare your brain is wired to racism and its just how you feel ? Its not an excuse in my opinion

rizdub

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Would you be as quick to declare your brain is wired to racism and its just how you feel ? Its not an excuse in my opinion

may be i was wrong in generalizing it but i feel really uncomfortable with this idea?
May i ask you if you have any first hand experience of child care OP is worried about?
do u think gender difference is same as skin color difference?

iamwhoiam

rizdub wrote: »

may be i was wrong in generalizing it but i feel really uncomfortable with this idea?
May i ask you if you have any first hand experience of child care OP is worried about?
do u think gender difference is same as skin color difference?

Yes i have first hand experience of child care and paeds nursing . And no I don't think they are the same but I think it's judgemental to discriminate on colour or gender or faith or land of birth or on where you live or come from etc.

Unfortunately I have seen male paeds nurses and male paeds carers leaving jobs they are very good at because of the stress of swimming against the tide of attitudes like the OP . My heart goes out to them as they are paying the price of the bad behaviour of a few of their gender

Theboinkmaster

Neyite wrote: »

Talk to the creche. It may be that they have organised workload in such a way that toileting will be taken care of by other female staff.

I certainly would absolutely not follow this advice, I would not talk to the cre about this. You will simply come across as a backward racist prejudiced imbecile and it will impact their relationship with both you and your daughter.

My 2.5 year old boy is in creche and I'd welcome a male carer with open arms, I'd love to see a more gender balanced environment for him.

pwurple

rizdub wrote: »

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

Why? Are you turned on by it?  Is that the fear, that there is someone else the same? 
I'd love to know what goes through people's heads to get to this point. Do they genuinely feel a dirty nappy is sexual in some way?

Theboinkmaster

rizdub wrote: »

i am not posting to make an argument ..its my personal experience and how i feel about it.. may be others feel differently or its just their thoughts without really going through it..

Well whilst we're discussing feelings - I feel sorry for your daughter, being brought up by someone with such narrow minded old fashioned and bigoted views, it's hard to think this won't negatively impact her.

irishman86

kerten wrote: »

No. I am fine with a male carer as long as he doesn't involve toilet support/nappy change activities of my kid which means reassignment to classes with older kids than 2 years old.

This is not a male carer bashing thread. I am trying to share my concern as a father and get perspective of others in similar situation of mine.

Jesus ****ing christ, wow ive seen a level of ignorance i thought had left Ireland
Get over yourself and bring the child to a different creche.
I have a girl and the staff are far more capable of taking babies than i ever could be
male or female

irishman86

super_furry wrote: »

You concern is born of nothing factual and seems to be hysterical nonsense to me, an outside observer. Particularly when you somehow believe that having a male carer change a nappy will lead to your child being sexually assaulted at some time in the future by someone else.

Your concern is not a valid one, because it is stupid with zero logic applied

Neyite

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I certainly would absolutely not follow this advice, I would not talk to the cre about this. You will simply come across as a backward racist prejudiced imbecile and it will impact their relationship with both you and your daughter.

Speaking to the creche about their policies and procedures will make him come across as backward and racist?

Clearly you read my post wrong.

Any organisation that looks after or trains children have safeguarding policies that they adhere to. In order to safeguard both the children AND the adults looking after them. Scouts, GAA etc all have very basic ones such as no adult is left alone with a child. The creche I used had two staff doing nappy changes together. So neither was alone with a child. It's fairly common.

So it's very possible if he (or his partner) enquire generally about safeguarding policies he might find he doesn't need to elaborate about his fear of the male childcare worker and damage his relationship with the creche workers because he'll find out that the guy won't ever be alone with his child in the changing area.

redarmyblues

Stupid self indulgent nonsense OP, if a license was required to read children you wouldn't get one.

Ahhhh for forks sake!

Welcome to modern society where men are assumed guilty until proven innocent. Minorities in Nazi Germany comes to mind.

"Female carer for toddlers and its impact on kids"
This fcuking topic wouldn't last an hour before its closed. But apparently its ok to diss on men. Everyone hating men nowadays

jaxxx

Deleted User wrote: »

"Female carer for toddlers and its impact on kids"
This fcuking topic wouldn't last an hour before its closed. But apparently its ok to diss on men. Everyone hating men nowadays

Well to be fair, most problems in the world can be traced back to a male point of origin :pac: But that's a separate issue entirely.

iamwhoiam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Female carer for toddlers and its impact on kids"
This fcuking topic wouldn't last an hour before its closed. But apparently its ok to diss on men. Everyone hating men nowadays

Well in fairness if you read the replies to the OP the vast majority are not supporting his viiews . So not everyone is hating men . I am here to support men and hate how all men are being tarred with the same brush because of the actions of a few . I will always stand up for good men and defend my husband ,son,father, brothers nephews , and male friends who are all decent kind people

RacoonQueen

This sends the entirely wrong message to children also, by having an issue with a male childcare worker you are essentially telling children ''All men are predators. BEWARE." Sends a bad message to a young girl about men in general.

I remember a few years ago, turning up to a swim training session. Our session took place after a kids session and late in the evening so we would be the last ones to use the pool. The kids session often ran over leaving us shorter on time to do ours. So we would leave the changing rooms and wait on the pool deck. On many occasions, it was requested that the *men* don't wait on the pool deck. It was actually a mother of young children that highlighted to me that this sent the entirely wrong message to the children.
The half naked women can wait on the pool deck, but the half naked men can't because y'know, all men are predators and sex crazed and we don't want them seeing the children in their togs. :rolleyes:

Theboinkmaster

Neyite wrote: »

Speaking to the creche about their policies and procedures will make him come across as backward and racist?

No, speaking to them about his concerns around a male worker will.

idnkph

OK by your twisted logic your daughter is going to grow up with a fear of men because she will pick up on your issues and already is picking them up.
By your way of thinking about all men in society are abusers. This is not healthy for your child to be given this view to your child.
You have issues with men that you need to approach and deal with.
Should all male nurses and carers be sacked because of the threat they all pose to those they look after??
Or are you just sexist and think men should be out doing the "mans work"?
Have you a job? Maybe you should consider giving it up and being a homemaker and looking after the husband and kids.
Your trail of thought and logic are years behind the present.
There is a case in roscommon at the moment of a female carer abusing kids (both girls and boys and a special needs child too) so maybe you should get the creche to sack everyone.
Honestly OP if there is a mirror nearby go and have a long hard look at yourself.

EdgeCase

It's ridiculous though. I mean that incident at the pool (above) could even stray into defamation of character, as the person is effectively stating that all of those men are unsafe around children in a public and 100% supervised environment.

If you want to improve child and vulnerable adults' safety you put proper measures in place - accountability, culture of open communication, visibility, reporting structures etc etc. you don’t just conclude that all men are perverts.

Neyite

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

No, speaking to them about his concerns around a male worker will.

Yes, but that's NOT what I suggested.
I suggested that he talk to the creche about their safeguarding policies. See below:

Neyite wrote: »

Talk to the creche. It may be that they have organised workload in such a way that toileting will be taken care of by other female staff. Or maybe changed the policy so that all staff are not unaccompanied when doing nappies. It's a safeguard against accusations towards staff too.

Nowhere did I suggest that he go in guns blazing to talk about his concerns over the male staffer. Except in your head that is.

Glass fused light

rizdub wrote: »

OP, i can feel ur concern as being a father of daughter who is 1.5 year old..
i had to change nappies quite few times and i will not be comfortable at all to think any other male doing this..

we can keep arguing about gender equality etc but no amount of training can make u go against whats human brain is hard wired/embedded with...

I am going to jump right in on this one.

Every species which engage in acts of sexual reproduction is " hard wired " to seek a suitable mating partner. It's how they survive as a species.  The hard wiring takes account of necessity to pick a partner that has reached sexual maturity ie. breeding  age. The hard wiring rejects partners who don't display the signed of sexual maturity.  I will concede that in a very small portion of any population the hard wiring is different. 

In humans breeding age is post puberty, the sexual maturity is signal by the changed body.  With girls and boys this includes hair growth, particularly visible  on the genitalia and arm pit, therefore the attraction of a hairless sex organ is (well should be) a social construct, not part of any hard wiring.

The uncomfortable feeling should also be a social construct, of learned behaviour on how this is a private body. We teach children first it's for 'pees and poos' and as they get older that it's for 'making babies'. IMO this is a natural,  rational reaction from learned behaviour.  If the uncomfortable feeling arises from some type of sexual attraction this should be acknowledged and steps taken (eg through therapy etc) to minimise the risk of any acts occurring.

If you are hinting that a  reason that a male would become involved in child care is down to them being sexually attracted to children you have to apply that same logic to a female who is 'hard wired' wrong.  While statistically women abusers are a smaller % of the population, given that it's a female dominated field, by excluding men you statistically double the risk of abuse posed by women.

The OP wants to do whats best for his child and no one on here should condemn him for that impulse.  He is trying to rationalise what he is uncomfortable with. He's probably the age group who grew up with  'stranger danger' and ' just say no'  where children were not taught that family members were a higher risk category.  Linking the male carer but not a brother to 'stranger danger'  is illogical and a bad risk based strategy.

To misquote Donald Rumsfeld, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know eg about the safeguarding in the crèche. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know eg random strangers on the street.  But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of safeguarding our children from sexual assaults and other dangers , it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones eg the familiar trusted person in your family or social circle who never gave anyone any reason to be suspicious.

shesty

This thread has gone out of control!
This father IS hardwired to think this way, because society encourages it!!Look at ads/tv/magazines, the works.Girls get pink, sparkly stuff, soft toys, like hair, make up etc.Boys get outdoor toys, fast ads with no sparkles, rough and tumble.And there it starts.I. see it with my own kids,(although I prevent them watching tv) despite my best efforts, they are literally brainwashed into these beliefs.Go into any shop particularly in this country....boys have a range of primary colours, sensible clothes to match the season weather in all colours of the rainbow.Girls get.....pink.Frills.Flowers.Spring comes (in February!) And it's short sleeves, little dresses, not a jumper/cardigan/decent jacket in sight.Totally unsuitable for the bloody freezing weather here and very few other options.How many of you have heard parents on buses or in shops etc say 'be good or the man will get you/be annoyed"??It is the stereotype we propogate.Thankfully it is changing somewhat (although not with the ads and the clothes).As I said before, I am not without fault myself, despite my own career choice....right down to the hospital visit where I sat speaking to a male midwife, dressed in scrubs same as all the other midwives-and just assumed he was the doctor because he was a man.I was so annoyed with myself afterwards when I realised, seeing as I actually know how it feels to be the minority sex in your chosen career. But it's how we are taught to think Doesn't make it right but there you are.

I think this dad has had a knee jerk reaction to seeing a man in the creche (same as any of us might) but I hope he has had time to think about it and realise it was just that; a knee-jerk reaction.It's nothing to do with how does he feel about a woman changing a boy's nappy or anything else-it's simply how we are trained to think and you don"t actually realise how ingrained it is until you find yourself reacting to something like this.I'd love to know how many fathers of sons here say things like 'but you're a big boy/big boys don't cry" or project expectations onto their sons that they will be into sports or rough and tumble play or not be shy or whatever from the day they are born?It's the stereotype we are fed from day 1.I don't agree with this father's reaction, but I can actually understand where he is coming from-and his decision as to whether to move to another creche after that comes down to how much he can override that thinking in himself, really.

Kintarō Hattori

As a Dad to a 10 month old baby girl I'm downhearted that there are people who think the way the OP does. Gender wouldn't come into the equation, I'd always want the best people looking after her, regardless of anything else.

wally1990

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not all men are child molesting rapists.....

Wow op very narrow minded.

THis +10000000000

CheerLouth

I'd say that if the dad speaks to the creche and asks about their nappy changing policy, he'd probably find that they are already on top of it in terms of safeguarding both the children AND their staff! Our creche has a policy that if one staff member changes a child's nappy in the morning, a different staff member must do the subsequent change. Our creche have had a male carer in the past & the children loved him. Never batted an eye lid that he was the only man in the place.