Is Islam right for Ireland?

Jokes

Summer In the City wrote: »

So what you're really saying is that it's not Muslims that are the problem it's people from these countries or continents?

What about the Jordanians or Lebanese who are very tolerant towards other people's religions, customs and way of life even in their own countries?

Id say you could do with a holiday to these no go areas in italy,sweden etc . you seem to be someone who doesnt like to believe things unless you see it happen.

I remember when i was heading to amsterdam in the early 90s we didnt have google or internet was working in birmingham at the time and a group had gobe few years previous was given a word of warning not to be walking near the canals too late cos theres usually gang of turks around the place known to rape men included. Im just saying why does this generation want links to every discussion

Summer In the City

Jokes wrote: »

Id say you could do with a holiday to these no go areas in italy,sweden etc . you seem to be someone who doesnt like to believe things unless you see it happen.

I remember when i was heading to amsterdam in the early 90s we didnt have google or internet was working in birmingham at the time and a group had gobe few years previous was given a word of warning not to be walking near the canals too late cos theres usually gang of turks around the place known to rape men included. Im just saying why does this generation want links to every discussion

I lived in Sweden last year. I had a walk around one of these so called "no go" areas in Malmo by accident. Yeah it was rough enough but nothing happened. In fact the worst thing that happened to me in Sweden was almost dying of boredom.

murphthesmurf

Grayson wrote: »

Sure you are. But what's one more lie. You should google all the claims you made there. There's so much stuff that's just completely wrong.

Ha Ha
Call someone a racist and end of.
Is Islam a race? I thought it was a religion.
Name one of the things that is wrong.

murphthesmurf

Snickers Man wrote: »

Just do a search on youtube for Douglas Murray and Islam and take your pick from whatever comes up.

He just drones on and on about how it was such a mistake to let them all in and has NOTHING to say ANYWHERE (go on, prove me wrong) about what to do about it. We are left to fill in the gaps ourselves and inevitably there are many who conclude that "we've got to send them back" or "If they won't go, there's only one thing left to do".

At which point the effete Mr Murray will get all self righteous and say "Oh but I never said that...!"

As Pete Townshend put it more than 40 years ago:
"The men who stirred us on
Sit in judgement of our wrong.
They decide and the shotgun sings the song"

He admits he doesn't know what the answer is, if you jump to the conclusion that genocide or similar is the answer then you are the problem not Douglas. It was a huge mistake to allow so many in at once. How can you integrate so many in such a short time. It's common sense to everyone except the far left.

Odhinn

Snickers Man wrote: »

Just do a search on youtube for Douglas Murray and Islam and take your pick from whatever comes up.

He just drones on and on about how it was such a mistake to let them all in and has NOTHING to say ANYWHERE (go on, prove me wrong) about what to do about it. We are left to fill in the gaps ourselves and inevitably there are many who conclude that "we've got to send them back" or "If they won't go, there's only one thing left to do".

At which point the effete Mr Murray will get all self righteous and say "Oh but I never said that...!"

As Pete Townshend put it more than 40 years ago:
"The men who stirred us on
Sit in judgement of our wrong.
They decide and the shotgun sings the song"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w5WOb8jPLQ

Irish Praetorian

Snickers Man wrote: »

Just do a search on youtube for Douglas Murray and Islam and take your pick from whatever comes up.

He just drones on and on about how it was such a mistake to let them all in and has NOTHING to say ANYWHERE (go on, prove me wrong) about what to do about it. We are left to fill in the gaps ourselves and inevitably there are many who conclude that "we've got to send them back" or "If they won't go, there's only one thing left to do".

At which point the effete Mr Murray will get all self righteous and say "Oh but I never said that...!"

As Pete Townshend put it more than 40 years ago:
"The men who stirred us on
Sit in judgement of our wrong.
They decide and the shotgun sings the song"

I might have made some of the same complaints of him up until recently, but I've gleamed from interviews and discussion about his book that what he really thinks is important is to slow down the pace of migration. Hardly revolutionary stuff. And he's also been quite quick on the idiocy of presuming that the migrants here will already return, or that completely stopping the flow is the answer.

murphthesmurf

Grayson wrote: »

As someone pointed out it wasn't thousands of men raping.

Plus all the crap that was said about sweden is a lie.

Everything in that post comes straight from alt right websites with zero fact checking at any point in the process. Actually, to be fair they probably don't even go to a right wing website. they probably get all their information from facebook memes put up by britain first.

I spend most of my time in these threads debunking stuff about no go areas and rape capitals and types of other crap.
These threads never involve a reasoned debate because so many islamaphobic lies are spouted or people decide that it's ok to infer what a billion people are like based on the actions of a few.

So there aren't any no go areas at all then?
This is the lefts response, nothing to see here, everything is fine, no rapes, the thousands of children were probably made to tell lies by the right. Put anyone who questions this in the 'right' box.
It is not 'a few' either, if it was we wouldn't even hear about most of it.
Is it lies of the thousands of children raped across the UK too?

murphthesmurf

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I might have made some of the same complaints of him up until recently, but I've gleamed from interviews and discussion about his book that what he really thinks is important is to slow down the pace of migration. Hardly revolutionary stuff. And he's also been quite quick on the idiocy of presuming that the migrants here will already return, or that completely stopping the flow is the answer.

This won't count for anything though as if you're not on the far left then you're on the right.

murphthesmurf

Summer In the City wrote: »

I lived in Sweden last year. I had a walk around one of these so called "no go" areas in Malmo by accident. Yeah it was rough enough but nothing happened. In fact the worst thing that happened to me in Sweden was almost dying of boredom.

I crossed over the road earlier with my eyes closed and no cars hit me. I reckon all this road safety business is a sham

Summer In the City

murphthesmurf wrote: »

I crossed over the road earlier with my eyes closed and no cars hit me. I reckon all this road safety business is a sham

Yeah, same thing.

James 007

murphthesmurf wrote: »

To decide whether it is right for Ireland we should look at other places where Islam has made home.
Sweden for example has areas with a very high number of Muslim migrants. These areas are no go areas for the police, if they are chasing a car and it enters certain areas they do not persue it. Sweden is also now the rape capital of Europe. Muslim gangs often go to music concerts specifically to sexually assault young women. They pick out a yoing girl and surround her so as to prevent anyone such as security intervening while they take it in turns to assault her. Mumford and Sons amongst others refuse to play at music concerts in Sweden until the problem is sorted. So its not worked out too well there.

Merkel has welcomed Islam with open arms. New yrs eve 2015 a few thousand of the new arrivals celebrated getting a new home by sexually assaulting women on new yrs eve around train stations. Germanys rape levels have increased considerably, a German feminist group held a protest march to demand the government do something as they no longer feel safe walking the streets. They were attacked during the march by anti-facists which is interesting, get raped quietly appears to be the message there.

The UK, which I have had a lot of first hand experience of as i was born there and lived most of my life there. Rotherham is an obvious example. Thousands of young girls raped and abused, given drugs and alcohol while as many as 50 men queued up to have sex with them. Theirs and their families lives threatened if they spoke a word to anyone. One young girls was branded with an 'M' on her bottom to signify that she is the property of Muslims. Girls as young as 11. This is not exclusive to Rotherham, Oxford had similar, Luton, Telford is the most recent to be exposed. Some horrific stories. This has been going on for a long time in almost every town/city with a high Muslim population in the UK. It was common knowledge for me and everyone I know for a long time. Tens of thousands of young vulnerable girls. This wasn't done by a small minority of Muslims. There would be queues of men waiting to take turns on these girls, as many as 50 at a time. There will be many more of these cases being discovered for other towns and cities I would bet my life on it.
On a Friday or Sat night I would go out to a nightclub in Birmingham. In that nightclub would be English, Jamaicans, Sikh, Hindu etc etc. We would mix, some of my friends were sikh, some black. The only people missing from the nightclub would be Muslims, with the exception of the odd Kosovan. The Muslims would all be driving around outside waiting for the girls to come out. Waiting to target the girls who had too much to drink or strayed away from their friends. This is something I would see week in week out. I lived outside of Birmingham around the black country. An area near me was Tipton, an area with quite a few jihadi fighters. They were known as the Tipton Taliban.
There are areas that we do not go, Smethwick, Small Heath, Handsworth.

Then there is France, things haven't been going well here either.
The Italians have had thousands of Migrants arriving on their shores, they recently voted for an anti immigration party.
I've left out all the obvious terror attacks that we all know about, like the children at the music concert in Manchester.

I'm not a racist, although I probably sound like one. To understand what it is really like living with a high population of Islam you have to have done it yourself. There is no where in Ireland that currently comes close. Sexual assault and rape is by no means exclusive to Islam, but where Islam goes it appears rape goes. There are many rapists of other religeons, but where a girl who is being raped is shared between father, son, uncles and cousins seems exclusive to Islam. Islam is the only religeon whose profit married and had sex with a 9 gr old girl. There are many horiffic stories and teaching in the bible too and all other books like it, but we know better than to take any notice of it. Christians follow a fraction of what the bible says. The west is thankfully becoming increasingly athiest.
Now let the left begin their assault. To answer the first inevitable response that will follow asking for links to prove my claims, kt took me long enough to write out this on my 5h1tty tablet I'm not going to spend another 20 mkns trying to put in links. Google is your friend, it's all freely available.

Here, Here. I agree with all of what you have said. Didn't have to google any of it as I have been reading up on this for the last 2 years or so. Unfortunately those that want mosques, those that want Islam will always label you or me a racist or use this term hate speech.

Another incident relates to killing a girl and using her as meat, I dont know the full facts of this one but have read it somewhere. One person I would have to commend is Tommy Robinson for really highlighting the issue. He does get alot of stick/hate, however time will tell if he will get the credit due. There is another thread on him on Boards here.

Richard Hillman

I seen that Green Party councilor saying that opposition to Islamic immigration was based around "fear of the unknown". Opposition is based around Fear of the known. And the question that never, ever seems to get asked to these people is Why do they think Ireland will be different to the likes of Sweden, Germany and Belgium?

masculinist

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I seen that Green Party councilor saying that opposition to Islamic immigration was based around "fear of the unknown". Opposition is based around Fear of the known. And the question that never, ever seems to get asked to these people is Why do they think Ireland will be different to the likes of Sweden, Germany and Belgium?

They dont' care . Apparently activating, witch hunting and lynching all the sleeping racists we've allegedly been plagued with for hundreds of years is far more important than actually thinking critically about the importation of Islamofascism.

Summer In the City

Summer In the City wrote: »

Yeah, same thing.

It is actually, in a way. I moved to Moscow at one stage almost 15 years ago, with my only knowledge a lonely planet guide. I got a standard apartment since the Hotels were so expensive, and then being a good tourist I walked through the most dangerous streets and areas to get to the Red Square. Nothing bad happened to me. Either on the way or the next two times after. Spoke to locals a few days later and they told me that random people get mugged, assaulted and shot there often.

There is such a thing as being damn lucky.

James 007

James 007 wrote: »

Here, Here. I agree with all of what you have said. Didn't have to google any of it as I have been reading up on this for the last 2 years or so. Unfortunately those that want mosques, those that want Islam will always label you or me a racist or use this term hate speech.

Yup... although TBH I don't even think that many of the posters here [who object so strongly] really care that much if mosques go up or not. They're fighting the "good" fight. That's all that really matters.

Another incident relates to killing a girl and using her as meat, I dont know the full facts of this one but have read it somewhere. One person I would have to commend is Tommy Robinson for really highlighting the issue. He does get alot of stick/hate, however time will tell if he will get the credit due. There is another thread on him on Boards here.

Robinson started off completely the wrong way, and that will never leave him. He won't attain any real degree of credibility because of his past. Doesn't help he's not a professor of some kind, or having the right kind of political/academic background either.

I've watched a few of the shows about him, and I kinda get what he's talking about, but at the same time, he's hasn't cut his ties with the extreme right completely and that bothers me. There's too much irrational fear in that kind of movement, and staying connected to it suggests that Robinson still has some of the same irrationality to him.

Snickers Man

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Disgusting attitude, you even have sexual assaults in quotes as if to make them seem nothing, women were raped, some women had fingers put in their vaginas without their consent. With attitudes like yours no wonder your siding with the misogynist culture and wanting more of it.

It's never a good idea to exaggerate what is already a criminal act by making it out to be something it isn't.

Nowhere did I condone what happened. I don't.

I said it's not something any woman should have to put up with, and nowadays increasingly they don't. But to portray it as a mass series of rapes is just a lie.

And if that's an attitude that disgusts you, that breaks my heart but your unwarranted apoplexy is very much your problem.

JohnMc1

masculinist wrote: »

They dont' care . Apparently activating, witch hunting and lynching all the sleeping racists we've allegedly been plagued with for hundreds of years is far more important than actually thinking critically about the importation of Islamofascism.

Alot of these "Let them in" types will be the first ones on the plane out of here if anything like what has happened in Germany,Sweden,France,Britain start happening here.

Jokes

Could you just imagine the gardai trying to sort a domestic or any arguement with islamics ffs they can do sweet f all with the itinerants here as it is or the gangs in dublin.

JohnMc1

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Alot of these "Let them in" types will be the first ones on the plane out of here if anything like what has happened in Germany,Sweden,France,Britain start happening here.

Nah, they'll be the ones demanding that the government provide secure compounds for them to live in, and then complaining that there isn't enough funding for the remainder of Irish people to have the same, while also pointing out that the Gardai aren't doing to their job effectively (but also pointing out any example of police brutality).

masculinist

Deleted User wrote: »

Robinson started off completely the wrong way, and that will never leave him. He won't attain any real degree of credibility because of his past.

I disagree. Thats just a offshoot of the narrative of those who hate him exposng them. Hes becoming more and more accepted as people realise he was persecuted and still is . Nobody in this world is perfect. And he has done the UK a big service by exposing a lot of nasty things the establishment covered up .
Those on the receiving end of rapes and cover ups accept him.

Samuel T. Cogley

tyskie17 wrote: »

video doing the rounds now of 2 refugees attacking a german girl in berlin ubahn station
that's what marxists want to bring here
hang a traitor first

.express .de/news/panorama/u-bahn-attacke-duo-ueberfaellt-maedchen-und-schlaegt-ihr-bierflasche-auf-den-kopf-30044822

I'd fcuking love a ubahn

Pepefrogok

tyskie17 wrote: »

video doing the rounds now of 2 refugees attacking a german girl in berlin ubahn station
that's what marxists want to bring here
hang a traitor first

.express .de/news/panorama/u-bahn-attacke-duo-ueberfaellt-maedchen-und-schlaegt-ihr-bierflasche-auf-den-kopf-30044822
hit with a beer bottle on the head and fights them off

Also a video out today in Berlin also of a Muslim whipping a couple of Jewish lads with a belt, but still, nothing to see here!!!

https://youtu.be/nBbnwvbUgxA

Pepefrogok

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/19/belt-wielding-assailant-screams-jew-as-he-attacks-two-on-a-berlin-street/

People need to read this, especially this part.

"One of the victims, who identified himself as Adam Armoush, later said that he was not in fact Jewish but had only worn a skullcap to prove to a friend that doing so wasn’t risky in contemporary Germany. “I was saying it’s really safe, and I wanted to prove it, but it ended like that,” Armoush told German TV."

Doctor Jimbob

Pepefrogok wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/19/belt-wielding-assailant-screams-jew-as-he-attacks-two-on-a-berlin-street/

People need to read this, especially this part.

"One of the victims, who identified himself as Adam Armoush, later said that he was not in fact Jewish but had only worn a skullcap to prove to a friend that doing so wasn’t risky in contemporary Germany. “I was saying it’s really safe, and I wanted to prove it, but it ended like that,” Armoush told German TV."

I could find examples of people of any race, religion, sexual orientation, height, or hair colour being disgusting excuses for human beings, but I'd rightly be seem as a lunatic if I tried to use that as a reason to keep out anyone sharing those characteristics.

murphthesmurf

Snickers Man wrote: »

But to portray it as a mass series of rapes is just a lie.

If you read my post again, which was the post you were originally referring to. I described the crimes as sexual assaults, not raped.
Although forcing your fingers inside a woman is a tiny step away from rape. Belittling a crime does little good either. If it was your daughter who had suffered an attack you'd hardly say it was only a "sexual assault" love, not a rape.

Pugzilla

All religions need to die off, they're divisive and hold back progress. People should grow up and realise they're not special.

If you condense the history of the universe into one year, primitive humans didn't show up until the 31st of December, at 22:24.

Islam has to be the most barbaric of the mainstream religions though.

Samuel T. Cogley

Pugzilla wrote: »

All religions need to die off, they're divisive and hold back progress. People should grow up and realise they're not special.

If you condense the history of the universe into one year, primitive humans didn't show up until the 31st of December, at 22:24.

Just in time to get pissed for the main event!

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of curiosity, anything I've said that was propaganda or lies?

As I've said previously, there are posters from both sides with poorly researched beliefs. Unfortunately, these also seem to be the majority of posters on both sides.

Of the top of my head I can't think of anything. But I'm not going back through your posts to. That would be long, boring and kinda stalkerish.

I'm probably the most logical person you could imagine. But discussions like this are emotive. People make decisions based on how they feel rather than facts. And unfortunately, thanks to facebook people get loads of reinforcement for these negative feelings. They see a story like sweden is the rape capital of the world and it fits the narrative that their cognitive bias has generated. And so it goes on.

There are millions of refugees displaced because of Syria. They are all people. Individuals just like us. They need help and it's serious. We have to think about what we are going to do. Nothing? resettle them? there's no easy answers and each has it's own challenges. And they are very serious challenges.

But the people who spout nonsense about Sweden and how Muslims are rapists aren't contributing anything to this discussion.

Snickers Man

murphthesmurf wrote: »

If you read my post again, which was the post you were originally referring to. I described the crimes as sexual assaults, not raped.
Although forcing your fingers inside a woman is a tiny step away from rape. Belittling a crime does little good either. If it was your daughter who had suffered an attack you'd hardly say it was only a "sexual assault" love, not a rape.

And the post to which I replied specifically contained the word rape. It's even in the quote.

By the way, was it a Muslim who was recently quoted as bragging on social media about "pumping a bird last night" and "spit roasting" a girl in reply to his mate's question "Any sluts get ****ed?" ?

Horniness and a sense of entitlement to having it slaked transcends ethnic and religious boundaries. As does male bravado.

utmbuilder

Almost 60,000 muslims in Ireland already.

Dont think they have caused any problems so far. Most are home owning familes.

Millions of investment into horse racing every year, funded their own 5 million mosque.

Large number of doctors, company owners, etc

Didnt see many in the dole office in the recession

Auguste Comte

utmbuilder wrote: »

Almost 60,000 muslims in Ireland already.

Dont think they have caused any problems so far. Most are home owning familes.

Millions of investment into horse racing every year, funded their own 5 million mosque.

Large number of doctors, company owners, etc

Didnt see many in the dole office in the recession

Have you not heard about all the gay lads getting beheaded down in Ballyhaunis, gangs roaming around at closing time, imposing sharia law, making sure that the locals don't indulge in battered sausages or get the shift on the way home. I hear they are eating kids now but I'm not too sure of the details.
If you haven't heard about any of this it's all the fault of the pinko libtard lefty media.

You should probably go and have a look for yourself but you might not find your way there because they made the local council change all the road signs to muslamic

Fact.

s7ryf3925pivug

Hate religion, not the religious

s7ryf3925pivug

Pugzilla wrote: »

Islam has to be the most barbaric of the mainstream religions though.

Dunno, do they have institutional child abuse?

First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.

OneEightSeven

Dorian Shallow Spot wrote: »

Dunno, do they have institutional child abuse?

First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.

Islam doesn't have a central power so it doesn't have an institution, but unlike Christianity, paedophilia is permitted in Islam and is legal is at least for Muslims countires because it was practiced by Islam's founder, Muhammad, who is billed as the perfect Muslim.

As for the Catholic church, I've always theorized that clerical abuse was the result of extreme sexual frustration and a recent report from Australia confirm my suspicions. They recommend allowing priests to marry and have sex to alleviate sexual frustration.

Captain Obvious

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I could find examples of people of any race, religion, sexual orientation, height, or hair colour being disgusting excuses for human beings, but I'd rightly be seem as a lunatic if I tried to use that as a reason to keep out anyone sharing those characteristics.

That's exactly it. If you were to use examples of the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church to demonstrate what Christians are like you'd be rightly laughed at.

s7ryf3925pivug

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Islam doesn't have a central power so it doesn't have an institution, but unlike Christianity, paedophilia is permitted in Islam and is legal is at least for Muslims countires because it was practiced by Islam's founder, Muhammad, who is billed as the perfect Muslim.
.

I followed your link. The page said 80% of middle eastern girls are abused between 3 and 6. I followed the links to the reference for that assertion. It brought me to an amazon page for a porn book from the 70s

vladmydad

utmbuilder wrote: »

Almost 60,000 muslims in Ireland already.

Dont think they have caused any problems so far. Most are home owning familes.

Millions of investment into horse racing every year, funded their own 5 million mosque.

Large number of doctors, company owners, etc

Didnt see many in the dole office in the recession

Yep they are great. Much better than us. I say we should let them keep coming. I mean, when they inevitably become the majority, I’m sure they’ll let gay folks continue to live openly and will further the interests of women, cause Muslims are strong feminists don’t you know.

SnakePlissken

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Tell me - what do you actually know about Islam outside of what you're read in tabloids?

*Walks into thread hopeful of some intelligent discourse about the misogynist and homophobic ideals attached to said religion. (An inarguable fact when all independent polls taking of Muslim's views expouse same)

* Sees the very first response is a thinly veiled snipe from one of After Hours most vocal supporters of a 1400 year old book written by a murderous paedophile.

weldoninhio

Snickers Man wrote: »

And the post to which I replied specifically contained the word rape. It's even in the quote.

By the way, was it a Muslim who was recently quoted as bragging on social media about "pumping a bird last night" and "spit roasting" a girl in reply to his mate's question "Any sluts get ****ed?" ?

Horniness and a sense of entitlement to having it slaked transcends ethnic and religious boundaries. As does male bravado.

Ah back to the ‘we have rapists/murderers/criminals here already so let’s import more’ nonsense.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ah back to the ‘we have rapists/murderers/criminals here already so let’s import more’ nonsense.

Are you suggesting that all Muslims are rapists/murderers/criminals?
I don't think I read any posts from people on here claiming to want to import rapists?

Thomas__.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

These threads about Muslims make me cringe.  Many ignorant people assuming that all Muslims are the same.  

The really gas thing is that even if we don't consider all muslims to be the same and say this in out in some of our posts, many of us will still be accused of assuming all muslims are the same. It's a standard response to shut down discussion.

For every right winged poster with a badly researched extreme viewpoint, there is a extreme liberal wannabe with equally poor knowledge.

In the 70s and 80s in England, the general view was that every single Irish person was a potential member of the IRA, or at least a supporter of the IRA.  The fact that this patently wasn't the case escaped most English people, in the same way that the anti-Muslim brigade here don't seem to have a clue about the followers of Islam.

I'm curious... Do you consider me to be of the Anti-Muslim Brigade?

That is spot on. It's just the way it is and it is per se a difficult undertaking to handle this subject as much differenciated as possible in the light of growing numbers of extremists and radicals among Muslims.

Not answering for the other poster you've put your question to, from what I have read in your posts so far, I wouldn't put you in the Anti-Muslim-Brigade box at all. I wouldn't put you in the Muslim-Defender box either, rather as someone who refuses to ignore what is going on in the real world and try to handle this from a differenciate angle. That is what I am doing and still try to do, but it leaves you right in the middle between the two extreme positions of the other aforementioned ones.

murphthesmurf

Dorian Shallow Spot wrote: »

Dunno, do they have institutional child abuse?

Female genital mutilation? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016
That was 2015 figures, of the people who presented to a doctor etc, how many more no one really knows. Also forced child marriage, would you class this as child abuse? I would.
The institutional child abuse carried out by the Catholic church was carried out by the priests and nuns, not by the followers of Catholicism. With the child rapes across the UK these were carried out by the average man on the street. The young Muslims were sent out to pick up girls and do the grooming, they would then share them with their fathers, uncles, cousins, friends. This kind of behaviour is exclusive to Islam.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

For every right winged poster with a badly researched extreme viewpoint, there is a extreme liberal wannabe with equally poor knowledge.

How true that is. I doubt either have actually read the Quran, never mind Hadith, or have much of a grasp of the history of Islam or the Islamic world.

As a religion it's often compared to Christianity - understandably as we like to filter the exotic through our own prism and shared points - but it has some fundamental differences. It's much more a social and political movement and was from the start. Unlike Jesus, Muhammed's kingdom was very much of this earth. It was also developed into a more self preserving and adaptable faith. A very strong religious meme as it were.

So for example there are essentially two "Muhammed's" in the texts, the early peaceful Muhammed of Mecca and the later more aggressive and martial Muhammed of Medina and they can be quite contradictory. The former is wheeled out as the Religion of Peace, both by apologists and those who actually see and act on that part(the majority of Muslims), the latter is the one that forments the radicals, the militarists and the terrorists. Both have theological foundations.

Personally I have no great issue with Islam or Muslims. No religion has un-bloodied hands. I do have issue with large scale immigration of cultures itself, regardless of the cultural background. Outside of colonies paved in the bones of indigenous peoples, it is a demonstrable fact that it has not done anywhere any favours.

When a culture or group of people stand out enough from the background culture and people problems are a given when that culture or group reach a certain size. It's pretty much guaranteed that many will become disenfranchised with the local culture. They're citizens but don't feel quite local. This comes from within and is driven by without. The result is enough people start to be suspicious off and hate the existing background culture and the results can be seen all over "multicultural" Europe. Look at the current wave of knife woundings and killings in London. How many "John Smiths" are involved? Lord knows there are enough scumbags in the "local" population to be going on with... Look at the mass groomings and rapes of young women in the UK and elsewhere. Again how many "John Smiths" are in the reports?

Oh and this is not about "race" or any of that guff. Though some would love to reduce it to that(on both sides). I mean how well did White immigration into Africa do? Oh yeah, they buggered up large tracts of that continent down to today. Watch how Chinese immigration and influence in Africa will and is doing similar.

Now the usual response is "oh Ireland will be different". How? I prefer to work off realities and the realities of human nature, not wishful thinking and it is my opinion that believing in multiculturalism is wishful thinking.

Thomas__.

Wibbs wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

For every right winged poster with a badly researched extreme viewpoint, there is a extreme liberal wannabe with equally poor knowledge.

How true that is. I doubt either have actually read the Quran, never mind Hadith, or have much of a grasp of the history of Islam or the Islamic world.

As a religion it's often compared to Christianity - understandably as we like to filter the exotic through our own prism and shared points - but it has some fundamental differences. It's much more a social and political movement and was from the start. Unlike Jesus, Muhammed's kingdom was very much of this earth. It was also developed into a more self preserving and adaptable faith. A very strong religious meme as it were.

So for example there are essentially two "Muhammed's" in the texts, the early peaceful Muhammed of Mecca and the later more aggressive and martial Muhammed of Medina and they can be quite contradictory. The former is wheeled out as the Religion of Peace, both by apologists and those who actually see and act on that part(the majority of Muslims), the latter is the one that forments the radicals, the militarists and the terrorists. Both have theological foundations.

Personally I have no great issue with Islam or Muslims. No religion has un-bloodied hands. I do have issue with large scale immigration of cultures itself, regardless of the cultural background. Outside of colonies paved in the bones of indigenous peoples, it is a demonstrable fact that it has not done anywhere any favours.  

When a culture or group of people stand out enough from the background culture and people problems are a given when that culture or group reach a certain size. It's pretty much guaranteed that many will become disenfranchised with the local culture. They're citizens but don't feel quite local. This comes from within and is driven by without. The result is enough people start to be suspicious off and hate the existing background culture and the results can be seen all over "multicultural" Europe. Look at the current wave of knife woundings and killings in London. How many "John Smiths" are involved? Lord knows there are enough scumbags in the "local" population to be going on with... Look at the mass groomings and rapes of young women in the UK and elsewhere. Again how many "John Smiths" are in the reports?  

Oh and this is not about "race" or any of that guff. Though some would love to reduce it to that(on both sides). I mean how well did White immigration into Africa do? Oh yeah, they buggered up large tracts of that continent down to today. Watch how Chinese immigration and influence in Africa will and is doing similar.

Now the usual response is "oh Ireland will be different". How? I prefer to work off realities and the realities of human nature, not wishful thinking and it is my opinion that believing in multiculturalism is wishful thinking.

Interesting post. Multiculturalism isn't just wishful thinking, it is partially a reality or how would you see all the restaurants with 'exotic' dishes and shops where to buy all that stuff too? It is probably that 'native' people like that but prefer to have the immigrants integrate themselves into the local society? To what extent, I mean how far should that go? Further I'd like to ask what it really takes of integration to become Irish, apart from naturalisation, I mean from being acknowledged as Irish by the 'native' locals? I raise these questions to ask for the merit of it in order to change ones person identity which means give up and abandon old ties to ones own upbringing and cultural background but always obeying the law.

donegaLroad

Jokes wrote: »

Could you just imagine the gardai trying to sort a domestic or any arguement with islamics ffs they can do sweet f all with the itinerants here as it is or the gangs in dublin.

The Gardai had resorted to sending in the nuns to a few of the haltung sites, as the travellers have total respect for them.

Grayson

Wibbs wrote: »

How true that is. I doubt either have actually read the Quran, never mind Hadith, or have much of a grasp of the history of Islam or the Islamic world.

As a religion it's often compared to Christianity - understandably as we like to filter the exotic through our own prism and shared points - but it has some fundamental differences. It's much more a social and political movement and was from the start. Unlike Jesus, Muhammed's kingdom was very much of this earth. It was also developed into a more self preserving and adaptable faith. A very strong religious meme as it were.

So for example there are essentially two "Muhammed's" in the texts, the early peaceful Muhammed of Mecca and the later more aggressive and martial Muhammed of Medina and they can be quite contradictory. The former is wheeled out as the Religion of Peace, both by apologists and those who actually see and act on that part(the majority of Muslims), the latter is the one that forments the radicals, the militarists and the terrorists. Both have theological foundations.

Personally I have no great issue with Islam or Muslims. No religion has un-bloodied hands. I do have issue with large scale immigration of cultures itself, regardless of the cultural background. Outside of colonies paved in the bones of indigenous peoples, it is a demonstrable fact that it has not done anywhere any favours.

When a culture or group of people stand out enough from the background culture and people problems are a given when that culture or group reach a certain size. It's pretty much guaranteed that many will become disenfranchised with the local culture. They're citizens but don't feel quite local. This comes from within and is driven by without. The result is enough people start to be suspicious off and hate the existing background culture and the results can be seen all over "multicultural" Europe. Look at the current wave of knife woundings and killings in London. How many "John Smiths" are involved? Lord knows there are enough scumbags in the "local" population to be going on with... Look at the mass groomings and rapes of young women in the UK and elsewhere. Again how many "John Smiths" are in the reports?

Oh and this is not about "race" or any of that guff. Though some would love to reduce it to that(on both sides). I mean how well did White immigration into Africa do? Oh yeah, they buggered up large tracts of that continent down to today. Watch how Chinese immigration and influence in Africa will and is doing similar.

Now the usual response is "oh Ireland will be different". How? I prefer to work off realities and the realities of human nature, not wishful thinking and it is my opinion that believing in multiculturalism is wishful thinking.

You might say it's not about race but that's just for you. There are many islamaphobes who are racists. When you look at the core groups like britain first you have to admit that they are racists. So much of peoples knowledge has come from this.

I've read the Koran. I lived in a middle eastern country. I've studied islamic philosophy. And when studies are mentioned I go and look at the actual study and how it was performed. Because of my maths background I can put numbers into context.
Most people on both sides aren't like that. They get their information from snippets. Take the average daily mail reader. Their information comes from a tainted source but they believe it's real. And there's millions of them.
Then there's the people who gather their information from articles shared on groups on facebook. I used to read facebook stuff but I haven't in a few years. It's like living in a bubble.

And finally there's a difference in the arguments being presented. There's an argument about how many refugees can be taken and that's a fair argument. It costs money. There's an argument about how it's best to resettle too.
However the gist of this thread and others like it are about how muslims are bad in general. In every thread there's someone who spouts that muslims are rapist. Mohammad was a paedophile. Sweden is the rape capital. Muslims all want to bomb us. Muslims can't live in a modern society etc... I believe most of those people have some sort of racism at the core of their argument. All those arguments are false and very easy to disprove. However people believe them. They have an over riding cognitive bias that puts them in a position where they honestly believe this stuff no matter what counter evidence is presented. It's got the same illogical basis that standard racism has. It's dislike of a large group of people based on an irrational and illogical belief.
Even the less sever arguments about how some muslims don't like homosexuality are irrational if you don't apply the same standards to others. If muslims think homosexuality is an abomination and therefore we need to limit their numbers, why aren't we applying the same standards to christian denominations that feel the same? The argument to protect the country from distasteful religious ideas only works if we say we will stop anyone with distasteful religious ideas. If you target a particular religious or ethnic groups with laws but ignore another, that's racism. And that's the reason christianity is quite often brought up.

The one very last thing I'd say is this. The two sides of the argument in these threads are generally "Muslims are bad, don't let them in" and "not all muslims are bad". There's very little "extremism" in the second camp.

Grayson

Jokes wrote: »

Could you just imagine the gardai trying to sort a domestic or any arguement with islamics ffs they can do sweet f all with the itinerants here as it is or the gangs in dublin.

I can imagine it. They'd do their job just like they do everywhere else.

Wibbs

Thomas__. wrote: »

Interesting post. Multiculturalism isn't just wishful thinking, it is partially a reality or how would you see all the restaurants with 'exotic' dishes and shops where to buy all that stuff too?

Funny enough I have noted down the years that when the subject of multiculturalism comes up it inevitably comes around to to food and restaurants. Joking aside, it often does. The suburban types who see it in terms of yams in Tesco and that woooonderful Mogolian Yak testicle dish Proinsias and I had last week.

It is probably that 'native' people like that but prefer to have the immigrants integrate themselves into the local society? To what extent, I mean how far should that go? Further I'd like to ask what it really takes of integration to become Irish, apart from naturalisation, I mean from being acknowledged as Irish by the 'native' locals? I raise these questions to ask for the merit of it in order to change ones person identity which means give up and abandon old ties to ones own upbringing and cultural background but always obeying the law.

It's not easy. It's difficult enough in nations that are built on colonisation and immigration, IE the "New World" of US, Canada, Australia etc. All have problems to one degree or other with internal cultures. In more longterm preexisting cultures these problems are as bad if not worse. The problems get worse again with the speed of immigration.

Let's take a different angle at it. In homogenous uni cultural nations do we see this kinda thing? Yes they will have "local" social issues, but they don't suffer the unique issues of multicultural societies. They just don't.

My heart would love a multicultural society, my head tells me that the heart is not enough and never has been. If we look at any multicultural society in history that has worked in every single case the underlying culture was extremely strong and resistant to any dissent or lack of integration. Hell, integration wasn't even an issue. If you lived there you had to abide by the local rules and culture or you were disenfranchised, or were out, or worse. EG The Islamic world in the early days, or the Roman empire, or the Chinese empire. One could argue and ironically with it that multiculturalism is more likely to work in more hardline, even right wing imperial cultures than in easy going liberal ones. And history would back you.

The problem with being liberal(and I am one) is that being easygoing is great until it butts up against not so liberal, not so easygoing cultures. Being a liberal westerner is often a position of believing everything and everybody and every culture is cool and let's all live together. It's inherently passive and less self confident in the culture that it built to allow for that and isn't likely to win against a culture far more sure of itself who sees it as weak.

hatrickpatrick

I continue to find it bizarre that everyone tends to frame the whole migrant debate as being about either religion or race, when in reality it's about culture.

A white Christian born and raised in Saudi Arabia and totally immersed in Saudi culture is going to have a view of (to take one example) womens' rights and sexual freedom which is entirely incompatible with Western values. I don't think the religion or race of the person is as relevant as people seem to think it is - I'm firmly on the "nurture" side of the nature vs nurture argument when it comes to social norms, and as far as I'm concerned the real issue - which is what we should be talking about instead of making it about Muslims - is that there are many countries in the world whose societies function in a way which a majority of Irish people would find abhorrent, and that's why there's so much vocal and angry opposition to immigration from Middle Eastern and North African countries.

This cuts both ways, as well - I'm pretty sure if Europe was going through a major crisis and a country like Saudi Arabia was being flooded with European migrants - among them, obviously, thousands of men and women who believe in gender equality and freedom of sexual expression as opposed to state mandated modesty in dress etc, the people of Saudi Arabia would be up in arms, because they would regard our way of living as totally incompatible with theirs.

I genuinely don't think religion has much to do with it. I mean, Ireland in the past had an extraordinarily f*cked up attitude towards women, but I'd imagine that a black, atheist son or daughter of American immigrants born and raised in this country would probably have ended up just as indoctrinated into the sexual repression bullsh!t as a white, Christian Irish kid.

I've spoken about this with an Egyptian muslim friend and she pretty much confirms the same - the religion itself isn't the issue, the issue is that certain countries have utterly toxic cultural values - values they would more than likely continue to hold regardless of how their country's religious history had or had not evolved.

In all honesty, how much does religion impose cultural values on a society versus how much does religion merely adopt the pre-existing cultural values of the society in which it first emerges?

Tl;dr, the problem isn't Islam, the problem is that certain countries operate in a way which is entirely incompatible with the way Ireland operates, and that's where the idea of assimilation vs multiculturalism becomes a legitimate political issue and not just "zomg racist!1!1!!11!!1!" like so many idiots like to automatically start shouting.

Wibbs

Grayson wrote: »

You might say it's not about race but that's just for you. There are many islamaphobes who are racists. When you look at the core groups like britain first you have to admit that they are racists. So much of peoples knowledge has come from this.

I agree. Which just adds to my point that multiculturalism is something that has so many issues on all sides.

And finally there's a difference in the arguments being presented. There's an argument about how many refugees can be taken and that's a fair argument. It costs money. There's an argument about how it's best to resettle too.

There is also the more IMHO important long term argument about how many immigrants of any sort a host culture can absorb before it gets problematic. That argument is a blindspot for folks in favour of multiculturalism, while the antis often think one is too many.

However the gist of this thread and others like it are about how muslims are bad in general. In every thread there's someone who spouts that muslims are rapist. Mohammad was a paedophile. Sweden is the rape capital. Muslims all want to bomb us. Muslims can't live in a modern society etc... I believe most of those people have some sort of racism at the core of their argument. All those arguments are false and very easy to disprove. However people believe them. They have an over riding cognitive bias that puts them in a position where they honestly believe this stuff no matter what counter evidence is presented. It's got the same illogical basis that standard racism has. It's dislike of a large group of people based on an irrational and illogical belief.

Again, this is human nature and observable throughout history and culture. Do you really think we can change that in a couple of generations and have that change across all sides? Again my heart may wish for that, but my head tells me it hasn't worked before. Ever.

Even the less sever arguments about how some muslims don't like homosexuality are irrational if you don't apply the same standards to others. If muslims think homosexuality is an abomination and therefore we need to limit their numbers, why aren't we applying the same standards to christian denominations that feel the same? The argument to protect the country from distasteful religious ideas only works if we say we will stop anyone with distasteful religious ideas. If you target a particular religious or ethnic groups with laws but ignore another, that's racism. And that's the reason christianity is quite often brought up.

Have you read After Hours? Have you read the extremely popular and widespread notion that Catholic priests are kiddie fiddlers, that the Church fostered and protected them, that the more we drive the Church from Irish society the better off we'll be? The Catholic Church and Catholics and Islam and Muslims as groups suffer about the same slings and arrows.

The one very last thing I'd say is this. The two sides of the argument in these threads are generally "Muslims are bad, don't let them in" and "not all muslims are bad". There's very little "extremism" in the second camp.

That's because you're in the second camp. One rarely sees the extremism or logic faults in one's own worldview.

Let's flip the script and imagine we're living in an Islamic mostly homogenous culture. If this debate was about large numbers of Christians, many of whom were pretty ardent Christians coming in their many thousands into our country I'd have the exact same concerns. I wouldn't have too many concerns about Christianity, or about Christians in general, I would have concerns at the importation of a large number of non local people and their culture. As nigh follows day the first generation would be mostly fine, but would tend to clump in areas with each other, number would grow, the second generation would feel "local" but not quite and resentment would build and so forth.