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Is Islam right for Ireland?
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »I continue to find it bizarre that everyone tends to frame the whole migrant debate as being about either religion or race, when in reality it's about culture.
A white Christian born and raised in Saudi Arabia and totally immersed in Saudi culture is going to have a view of (to take one example) womens' rights and sexual freedom which is entirely incompatible with Western values. I don't think the religion or race of the person is as relevant as people seem to think it is - I'm firmly on the "nurture" side of the nature vs nurture argument when it comes to social norms, and as far as I'm concerned the real issue - which is what we should be talking about instead of making it about Muslims - is that there are many countries in the world whose societies function in a way which a majority of Irish people would find abhorrent, and that's why there's so much vocal and angry opposition to immigration from Middle Eastern and North African countries.
This cuts both ways, as well - I'm pretty sure if Europe was going through a major crisis and a country like Saudi Arabia was being flooded with European migrants - among them, obviously, thousands of men and women who believe in gender equality and freedom of sexual expression as opposed to state mandated modesty in dress etc, the people of Saudi Arabia would be up in arms, because they would regard our way of living as totally incompatible with theirs.
I genuinely don't think religion has much to do with it. I mean, Ireland in the past had an extraordinarily f*cked up attitude towards women, but I'd imagine that a black, atheist son or daughter of American immigrants born and raised in this country would probably have ended up just as indoctrinated into the sexual repression bullsh!t as a white, Christian Irish kid.
I've spoken about this with an Egyptian muslim friend and she pretty much confirms the same - the religion itself isn't the issue, the issue is that certain countries have utterly toxic cultural values - values they would more than likely continue to hold regardless of how their country's religious history had or had not evolved.
In all honesty, how much does religion impose cultural values on a society versus how much does religion merely adopt the pre-existing cultural values of the society in which it first emerges?
Tl;dr, the problem isn't Islam, the problem is that certain countries operate in a way which is entirely incompatible with the way Ireland operates, and that's where the idea of assimilation vs multiculturalism becomes a legitimate political issue and not just "zomg racist!1!1!!11!!1!" like so many idiots like to automatically start shouting.
I do actually agree a lot with you. Some countries and cultures do have aspects that are very toxic. In these threads i do sometimes throw out India. Their caste system is horrible. They have a problem with women being raped and "eve teasing" is very common.
the reason I mention it is that you don't see Indians getting the same flak that Muslims do. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say there should be a ban on Hindu's.
And I don't think a ban on Hindu's should be allowed. Most of the ones that come here are lovely. I live next to a couple and my only complain is that the smell of cooking from their apartment is amazing. I arrive home with a snackbox and want to eat wherever they have in their apartment
When an argument targets one group but not another there's a bias in it and that's racist.
Plus I wouldn't want to live in Saudi. I can't see why the majority of people from there would want to live here. The ones that do probably want to because of the kind of country Saudi is.0 -
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Interesting post. Multiculturalism isn't just wishful thinking, it is partially a reality or how would you see all the restaurants with 'exotic' dishes and shops where to buy all that stuff too?It is probably that 'native' people like that but prefer to have the immigrants integrate themselves into the local society? To what extent, I mean how far should that go?
Well... I lived seven years in China, and I'll be returning there later this year. I learned Chinese (my reading/writing sucks but my speaking is pretty good), and I even learned two local dialects. I ate their food (even when western food was available), I listened to their music, I attended the popular events, and went to their music concerts. I dated their women extensively.
And I pretty much immersed myself in the life there.
But I'll always be a foreigner there. Being white, tall and having blue eyes, is just part of it. There is no expectation of fitting in. There are people from all over the world in China, but they will always be considered foreigners. As will their children.
Western countries/culture is different. We have a culture that seeks to embrace and provide excellent opportunities for integration. I think most people who haven't lived abroad outside of western countries don't really understand this. Western culture provides so many ways for people to merge with the existing society that most other cultures don't. I've lived in Russia, many parts of Asia, and met long-term expats in many other countries, and generally their experiences match mine.
This isn't about food. It's about attempting to merge with the local culture and adopting the customs which are common. It's about adopting similar values. In China, if you saw someone lying on the street in obvious distress, the vast majority of people would avoid them for fear that it's a scam of some sort. In most European countries, many (not all) people would show concern, and notify someone in authority, or involve themselves directly. The values of society and the manner in which they are expressed are different. Admittedly, the example is slowly going out of date since people are becoming more suspicious of strangers here.
You ask how far to take it? Learning the language is a good start. Not pushing the customs and traditions of your original country on to others is the next best move. The people who consistently fail to live long-term in China (despite their wishes otherwise) are the ones who believe their culture/values to be superior and seek to prove it. It would be the same here in western countries. Respect the host countrys culture.Further I'd like to ask what it really takes of integration to become Irish, apart from naturalisation, I mean from being acknowledged as Irish by the 'native' locals? I raise these questions to ask for the merit of it in order to change ones person identity which means give up and abandon old ties to ones own upbringing and cultural background but always obeying the law.
Don't rock the boat. It's really that simple. I succeed in China/Asia because I don't cause trouble and avoid the foreigners that do. The immigrants I know in Ireland (I teach English at the local community center) who don't set themselves apart due to their fashion (religious/cultural attire), who learn English, etc are the ones who become accepted in the community.Their country of origin becomes a footnote pretty quickly regardless of their skin color or religion. The immigrants here who stand out are the ones, who haven't sought to improve their English (and there are quite a few who don't), who do dress as they would at home, and generally remind everyone that they're not from around here all the time.
I'm suspicious of multiculturalism because it's very rare that i've seen it last longer than a decade or two. People just seem to feel the need to push their own customs/culture into the public space.0 -
Thanks for the reply. There are a couple of things in your post which I see a bit different. One thing is in regards of the USA, Canada and Australia, as well as NZ which you haven't mentioned, that all the four nations were build on the expense of the native people there. There was no such Intention of establishing a multicultural society, there was just the intention of colonising them and grab the land from the natives to finally overtake it. I won't get into more details on that as this would lead us too far from the topic of this thread. I don't think that I have to explain anything to you further either as I presume that you know about that history yourself well enough. What I like to point out by that is the difference between 'uninvited conquest' and 'invited immigration' of people to take up jobs the natives didn't want to take on anymore. That is how Immigration policy was set up and persued after WWII in Western Europe. This is at the core of the whole muluticulty and immigration matter of our time. What adds to that is the 'uninvited economical migration' from countries of the so called 'Third World' who flee their countries because there is no prospect to improve the lives of the people as the countries are economically down, partly as a result from old colonial times and past-colonial times in which the exploitation of the natural resources of that country still persisted. Partly it is due to the bad politics of the rulers of the elected politicians of these countries which has corruption and crony serving interests at its core too.
Funny enough I have noted down the years that when the subject of multiculturalism comes up it inevitably comes around to to food and restaurants.Interesting post. Multiculturalism isn't just wishful thinking, it is partially a reality or how would you see all the restaurants with 'exotic' dishes and shops where to buy all that stuff too? Joking aside, it often does. The suburban types who see it in terms of yams in Tesco and that woooonderful Mogolian Yak testicle dish Proinsias and I had last week.
It's not easy. It's difficult enough in nations that are built on colonisation and immigration, IE the "New World" of US, Canada, Australia etc. All have problems to one degree or other with internal cultures. In more longterm preexisting cultures these problems are as bad if not worse. The problems get worse again with the speed of immigration.It is probably that 'native' people like that but prefer to have the immigrants integrate themselves into the local society? To what extent, I mean how far should that go? Further I'd like to ask what it really takes of integration to become Irish, apart from naturalisation, I mean from being acknowledged as Irish by the 'native' locals? I raise these questions to ask for the merit of it in order to change ones person identity which means give up and abandon old ties to ones own upbringing and cultural background but always obeying the law.
Let's take a different angle at it. In homogenous uni cultural nations do we see this kinda thing? Yes they will have "local" social issues, but they don't suffer the unique issues of multicultural societies. They just don't.
My heart would love a multicultural society, my head tells me that the heart is not enough and never has been. If we look at any multicultural society in history that has worked in every single case the underlying culture was extremely strong and resistant to any dissent or lack of integration. Hell, integration wasn't even an issue. If you lived there you had to abide by the local rules and culture or you were disenfranchised, or were out, or worse. EG The Islamic world in the early days, or the Roman empire, or the Chinese empire. One could argue and ironically with it that multiculturalism is more likely to work in more hardline, even right wing imperial cultures than in easy going liberal ones. And history would back you.
The problem with being liberal(and I am one) is that being easygoing is great until it butts up against not so liberal, not so easygoing cultures. Being a liberal westerner is often a position of believing everything and everybody and every culture is cool and let's all live together. It's inherently passive and less self confident in the culture that it built to allow for that and isn't likely to win against a culture far more sure of itself who sees it as weak.
As far as I know, the Republic of Ireland had less immigration rates from other countries pre-EEC ascendance. You can enlighten or correct me on this but it seems to me that much of the Immigration took place in the 1990s with Ireland being economically successful during the 'Celtic Tiger' years. Before that, there was more Emigration of Irish people to other countries than vice versa. It also had much economical reasons for why Irish people went abroad, not too different from what makes Africans go to Europe. But there is one difference between Irish emigrants and African / MidEast immigrants. Irish people used to go to countries like USA, Canada, Australia and NZ where the spoken language is English and it is easier to settle in such countries than to go to a very different one with a different culture and language, even writing. Depending on the education and the former colonial power of the country they are from, not less of them speak fluent English or French (in regards of African countries), others know no language of the two aforesaid at all, but just see to make it to the EU and start from nothing, learning the language of the country in which they can settle. This is where it starts first, to learn the language to understand the culture of the host country. That means, you can't adopt culture you don't know anything about and don't understand either, such learning and understanding needs time to develop and some are better and others are bad in making progress with it. There is still a percentage which is totally refusing to do anything, but they are a minority. The many people strive to integrate and make the best of it for themselves. They don't think about to give up their cultural roots as they are neither asked or demanded to do so, what they know is that they have to obey by the law and the rules, but for that they first have to know them. That means someone has to teach them these. This also takes time.
Cultural differences are working in a good and a bad way, somehow even in a neutral way. In good ways when there is a bilateral exchange and open mindness, in bad when a foreign culture tries to impose her values on the native one and seeks to overtake the dominance. In a neutral way when different cultures live side by side and there is no attempt of imposing on one another.
The problem with Muslims and other different cultural people in Europe is neither their religion and their culture per se, it is with a minority of radicals who seek to get more people of their own background radicalised in opposing them to the liberal and free society to overthrow and replace it with their radical one. The generalisation by the natives that is emanating and founded on the behaviour fo the radicals which are still a minority makes the whole of that community seen in a bad light. The silence of the moderate and law abinding majority of that community feeds suspicions by the natives and raises questions why they don't stand up to the abuse of their religion and culture. That gives much room for speculations, misinterpretations and culminates in hidden or even open racism or anti-immigration sentiments.
A further aspect which makes the immigration more contentious is that already unsolved and worsening social problems get exacerbated by a 'overproportional' influx of new immigrants. There are lots of such social problems from the housing crisis to jobs which are essential for a decent human life. When too many in too short a time arrive new and the aforesaid problems are not solved and can't be solved in a short time to satisfy the natives and the immigrants as well, social tensions are increasing. On the other hand one must see that all the efforts taken by the 'First World' to help the 'Thrid World' to improve the economy and the living standards in those countries have failed over the decades because of the political environment as I have mentioned above. That means that without improvements and with the climate change which also affects them, there will be further migration towards Europe in the future. More so when it gets to survival. That all are the driving forces for migration for many people. Still, the rich countries are doing too less (or like Trump even seek to withdraw from commitments to stop climate change) to stop this development which are foreseeable.
But coming back to my integration questions, where is the difference between integration and assimilation? When becomes a foreign person a full recognised Irish one and by that I mean recognised as Irish by the old natives?
What would I have to do to become an Irishman? Regularly go to the Pub, learning the Irish language, knowing all about Irish history and know about Irish politics and culture, try to take on the local accent? Maybe commit myself in local activities or social volunteer projects? These things are all matters which one can come in contact and become engaged with in daily life, it is part and parcel of integration, the more one adopts the more one gets assimilated and it means more than just to apply for Irish citizenship, it means to change ones own cultural life and yet it doesn't takes away the old traces of ones identity, the cultural background that shaped it in the first place.
I have put such questions to Irish people from time to time, but I haven't yet received a clear and direct answer to them. I think that it isn't that hard to answer them, maybe it is a bit hard to be honest on answering them. But I am still interested in what Irish people say to that. When people always call for integration, they should at least be capable to give a straight answer what they mean by it.0 -
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Actually I'd say it's more than a few and on the "left" there's always more than a few that run the "you're racist for not wanting immigration of the like seen in the rest of Europe".Not really. Most people are willing to engage in it but from the right there's always a few than make it descend into "they want to take us over"
I have no problem condemning blindness to nuance on any matter.True but that doesn't make it right and everyone should be condemning these people and their ideas. However they generally get free rein from the right. You won't see someone who's anti Muslim step in and say it's wrong. Quite often the posts get thanked. If someone wants to have a proper serious discussion about emigration they should be correcting these people.
For obvious reasons. Ireland is culturally still a christian with a small c country. It's also a "White" country culturally. So 10,000 say White "christian" Polish people quite simply don't stand out to any great degree. Which in turn means they're less likely to attract negative attention, which in turn means they're less likely to become a social "issue". A born and raised here Black Irish man or woman(though more the man) is quite simply more visible. 10,000 Black African folks regardless of religion will stand out. Are more likely to feel threatened by the host country, more likely to clump together in neighbourhoods etc. It would be the same if the same number of White Irish rocked up in Uganda. Human nature again.And your reply didn't address the point that no-one is calling for a restriction on the number of Christians from certain denominations entering the country.
OK then in your estimation what number is too large? Off the top of my head there are over 50,000 folks of African origin in Ireland, a similar number of Muslim folks. What number would you be OK with?There's a lot of assumptions there. Plus we're not talking about large numbers.
This is the Left's go to; it's always economics. The two strands boil down to economics and the oppressed/oppressor dynamic. When all you have is a hammer(and sickle*) every problem looks like a nail.Mistakes were made in the past. People were basically thrown in ghetto's in europe. Almost all of the problems that have occured in them are because of economics, not race or culture or religion.
Yes sometimes top down ghettoisation was in play, certainly in the past. However you're ignoring ground root self ghettoisation. This goes on everywhere there is immigration in any numbers. Look to the US. The Irish tended to choose to live with other Irish, the Italians with other Italians, the Jews with other Jews and so on. Understandably so. Again with human nature. They also all tended to become more Irish/Italian/Jewish than the Irish/Italian/Jewish from "back home", in many cases to the point of caricature about their cultures or their perceptions of them. look at Ireland. No top down ghettoisation going on, yet we can all point to areas in Irish major cities and towns that are already "Muslim" or "Black". And this has happened in the last decade or so. No Irish imperial past required.
Again what numbers do you consider "reasonable" and at what point would you baulk at any more? It seems we both have similar enough concerns, but are just arguing the numbers.If the numbers are reasonable then I think we could take Muslim refugees and it would be ok.
Yep, more than a bit daft, but I can near guarantee he or she will have quite widespread if tacit support for that position. Human nature...But take kilkenny. This week someone stood up in a meeting and said muslims shouldn't be allowed build a mosque because they need to learn respect (Or show respect. I can't remember the exact phrase).
*couldn't resist Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Deleted User wrote: »Interesting post. Multiculturalism isn't just wishful thinking, it is partially a reality or how would you see all the restaurants with 'exotic' dishes and shops where to buy all that stuff too?It is probably that 'native' people like that but prefer to have the immigrants integrate themselves into the local society? To what extent, I mean how far should that go?
Well... I lived seven years in China, and I'll be returning there later this year. I learned Chinese (my reading/writing sucks but my speaking is pretty good), and I even learned two local dialects. I ate their food (even when western food was available), I listened to their music, I attended the popular events, and went to their music concerts. I dated their women extensively. And I pretty much immersed myself in the life there.
But I'll always be a foreigner there. Being white, tall and having blue eyes, is just part of it. There is no expectation of fitting in. There are people from all over the world in China, but they will always be considered foreigners. As will their children.
Western countries/culture is different. We have a culture that seeks to embrace and provide excellent opportunities for integration. I think most people who haven't lived abroad outside of western countries don't really understand this. Western culture provides so many ways for people to merge with the existing society that most other cultures don't. I've lived in Russia, many parts of Asia, and met long-term expats in many other countries, and generally their experiences match mine.
This isn't about food. It's about attempting to merge with the local culture and adopting the customs which are common. It's about adopting similar values. In China, if you saw someone lying on the street in obvious distress, the vast majority of people would avoid them for fear that it's a scam of some sort. In most European countries, many (not all) people would show concern, and notify someone in authority, or involve themselves directly. The values of society and the manner in which they are expressed are different. Admittedly, the example is slowly going out of date since people are becoming more suspicious of strangers here.
You ask how far to take it? Learning the language is a good start. Not pushing the customs and traditions of your original country on to others is the next best move. The people who consistently fail to live long-term in China (despite their wishes otherwise) are the ones who believe their culture/values to be superior and seek to prove it. It would be the same here in western countries. Respect the host countrys culture.Further I'd like to ask what it really takes of integration to become Irish, apart from naturalisation, I mean from being acknowledged as Irish by the 'native' locals? I raise these questions to ask for the merit of it in order to change ones person identity which means give up and abandon old ties to ones own upbringing and cultural background but always obeying the law.
Don't rock the boat. It's really that simple. I succeed in China/Asia because I don't cause trouble and avoid the foreigners that do. The immigrants I know in Ireland (I teach English at the local community center) who don't set themselves apart due to their fashion (religious/cultural attire), who learn English, etc are the ones who become accepted in the community.Their country of origin becomes a footnote pretty quickly regardless of their skin color or religion. The immigrants here who stand out are the ones, who haven't sought to improve their English (and there are quite a few who don't), who do dress as they would at home, and generally remind everyone that they're not from around here all the time.
I'm suspicious of multiculturalism because it's very rare that i've seen it last longer than a decade or two. People just seem to feel the need to push their own customs/culture into the public space.
Thanks for that post. It's been a very interesting reading too as well as advisable. I have never been outside of Europe myself, never had the desire to. So my knowledge about far away countries isn't based on experiences such like yours. There are many things on which I agree with you. One thing in your post reminds me on the meaning of 'internationalism' in the old Communist Eastern Bloc states. In fact it is a sham cos in reality, regarding how they treated their own ethnic minorities and preferred their majority nationals, it was always 'us and them' no matter how much one was on their political line, the different ethnicity was always enough reasons for suspicion and discrimination. Because of that I am not surprised about what you said from your experiences in China. In your case you're a foreign national with foreign citizenship, in the example I refere to it was about people of different ethnicity but same citizenship with generations living in that area for generations, just that the country has changed due to the aftermath of WWI and WWII.
Anyway, I assume that you all adopted that in China because either you like it or you saw it necessary to get on with your life there, for practical reasons. It wasn't quite clear to me whether you intend to settle there permanently and that would make a difference. People who migrate to other countries because of work but with no intention to settle there for the rest of their lives have a different attitude and have therefore less interest in integration when they think that they will go back to their home country some time anyway. Therefore, to lead a life in a foreign country as you did in China is very recommendable as it can keep one out of trouble. I think that I would try to follow your example, with some exceptions (I am not fond of Asian food, therefore I would barely travel to such countries, the climate is another aspect I might have problems to cope with), but in principle and principal I would certainly do likewise as this is reasonable.
Now my time is running out for today and I'll be back after the weekend. Have a good time.0 -
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Thanks for that post. It's been a very interesting reading too as well as advisable. I have never been outside of Europe myself, never had the desire to.
You should. It broadens the mind and makes you see Western culture in a very different way.So my knowledge about far away countries isn't based on experiences such like yours. There are many things on which I agree with you. One thing in your post reminds me on the meaning of 'internationalism' in the old Communist Eastern Bloc states. In fact it is a sham cos in reality, regarding how they treated their own ethnic minorities and preferred their majority nationals, it was always 'us and them' no matter how much one was on their political line, the different ethnicity was always enough reasons for suspicion and discrimination. Because of that I am not surprised about what you said from your experiences in China.
And you're describing pretty much everywhere that is not Europe (or the US 30 years ago). It's only westerners that expect to integrate so much into other societies, and tolerate other cultures not doing the same in their own countries.In your case you're a foreign national with foreign citizenship, in the example I refere to it was about people of different ethnicity but same citizenship with generations living in that area for generations, just that the country has changed due to the aftermath of WWI and WWII.
I know an English man who has lived in Tokyo since before WW2, speaks better Japanese than the locals, married to a Japanese woman, was imprisoned in Japan during the war, and has children living there. He's still a foreigner and always will be.Anyway, I assume that you all adopted that in China because either you like it or you saw it necessary to get on with your life there, for practical reasons. It wasn't quite clear to me whether you intend to settle there permanently and that would make a difference. People who migrate to other countries because of work but with no intention to settle there for the rest of their lives have a different attitude and have therefore less interest in integration when they think that they will go back to their home country some time anyway.
Yes and no. I never intended to settle forever in China. TBH I'll probably never settle anywhere. I immersed myself in Chinese culture because traditional Chinese culture is mostly dead, and the modern Chinese culture changes so often... I'm fascinated by the contradictions within their own society and how they perceive their own culture. It's interesting to see how superficial everything is... and that, in turn, helps me to see western culture better.
People are people. In reality we should be talking about individuals, since what drives people to live and do things is usually a personal experience. However, It's impractical to talk about the individual when talking about Immigration, or... deeply religious people, which most Muslims are.Therefore, to lead a life in a foreign country as you did in China is very recommendable as it can keep one out of trouble. I think that I would try to follow your example, with some exceptions (I am not fond of Asian food, therefore I would barely travel to such countries, the climate is another aspect I might have problems to cope with), but in principle and principal I would certainly do likewise as this is reasonable.
Now my time is running out for today and I'll be back after the weekend. Have a good time.
Um. I suspect I've been "in trouble" more than most people...
And don't judge Asia based on what you think you know. It's the same with pretty much any country or cultural group outside of the West. You can assume certain things when talking about Europe, or the US, because they share a value system and other cultural indicators (and you grew up in a western nation). You can't really do the same when you're talking about other places.
For example. I talked to dozens of expats before I went to Iran. The thought of going there filled me with dread based on past experiences in other Muslim countries, but the experience itself was brilliant. Wonderful country, and fantastic people. I wouldn't want to live there myself, but a great experience. Same with dozens of other countries I've stayed in. I don't mean traveling for a week or two, but staying in one city for a few months or a year. Gives you a much different perspective on everything. Highly recommended.0 -
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I have to say that while I disagree almost completely with Wibbs it is good to read a well thought out informed opinion. It's posts like these that can change opinions or at least shine a different light on the subject.
I'd love to have the time to fact check the rest of the posts in this thread, when I read a lot of the anti Muslim posts I just keep seeing this guy and getting a giggle, keep it up lads.
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![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5VDbu-HLMs
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