Is Islam right for Ireland?

FingerDeKat

Auguste Comte wrote: »

On one side there are the isis loons and on the other.......

Scaremongering isalmophobic cockroaches.

Hopefully they won't get AH closed down the way they did with the politics cafe

Grayson

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Scaremongering isalmophobic cockroaches.

Hopefully they won't get AH closed down the way they did with the politics cafe

There's always an Islam thread on the front page of AH and it's always the same people creating them. And they come up with crap like that post about repeal the 8th.

Yet some people have the gall to say that there are loons on both sides.

I'd like one person to show me where in this thread there's been anything as crazy as that abortion post that was posted by someone who's not Islamophobic.

Snake Plisken

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Scaremongering isalmophobic cockroaches.

Hopefully they won't get AH closed down the way they did with the politics cafe

How would you know as you are a new account registered this month? The cafe issue happened last year what boards name did you have last year?

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

I'm not doing a hatchet job on Christianity. I specifically said every single religion. The fact that you read that into what I said says more about you than me.
And yes it was anti catholic. to deny that religion played any part in the reformation and all the wars that resulted is willful blindness. Sure politics played a part as certain kingdoms tried to use religion as a reason to gain an advantage but religion was involved. That was the point of the reformation.

You need to spend some time reading up on all of this.

I know all there is to know already . You display an ignorance of events on these islands. Henry the 8th was a successful tyrant who abolished Catholicism in Britain not because he believed in the reformation. He did it so he could divorce and execute his wives one by one. He did this in order to remarry and father a male heir because the Pope refused him an a divorce or annulment.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

Islamophobic.

Islamophobia has been described as “a word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons”

p1akuw47h5r3it

Kivaro wrote: »

We could use that quote in so many discussions on this forum.

But it's that vocal (loud) view, which is bellowed by a similarly minded media conglomerate in this country, that will push people who normally reside in a centrist political position towards a right or far-right alternative. Liberals want to sacrifice Ireland in the name of open migration; reality and the experiences of other countries tells us that this is a very bad idea.

This is me. Day in day out the left edges me a little farther right and right. The identity politics, the self hatred, the desperation to be a victim in every facet of society one can think of, the inability to even acknowledge problems associated with immigration. The list goes on.

RustyNut

masculinist wrote: »

Islamophobia has been described as “a word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons”

Where on storm front?

masculinist

RustyNut wrote: »

Where on storm front?

A man I admire and respect who doesn't rely on tired learned off mindless slander like the above, a man who leftists fear to debate with because they come away from it severely embarrassed

Dr Jordan B Peterson

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/855568725801443328?lang=en

conorhal

masculinist wrote: »

I know all there is to know already . You display an ignorance of events on these islands. Henry the 8th was a successful tyrant who abolished Catholicism in Britain not because he believed in the reformation. He did it so he could divorce and execute his wives one by one. He did this in order to remarry and father a male heir because the Pope refused him an a divorce or annulment.

Indeed. Henry supported a bunch of extremists because it was convenient for him, he disavowed Catholisism because of his own desire for a male heir and because the wealth of the church could be seized and distributed to buy support. Towards the end of his life he rowed back on much of what he did and sought reconciliation with the Pope.
There's a lesson in that for modern politicians, what they are doing, they are doing for economic and political convenience, they are pandering to extremists as Henry did and that's dangerous. Let's be honest, the Reformation DWARFS things like the inquisition when it comes to burning people at the stake. The ordinary folk got so pissed off with those lunatic extremists who used Henry to control everybody else that they themselves became subject to persecution and had to fvck off to America.
Our politicians are doing the same thing today pandering to extremists that burn people at the stake for heresy because it's politically convenient to them when it comes to pleasing their EU masters and economic masters.

Captain Obvious

conorhal wrote: »

Indeed. Henry supported a bunch of extremists because it was convenient for him, he disavowed Catholisism because of his own desire for a male heir and because the wealth of the church could be seized and distributed to buy support. Towards the end of his life he rowed back on much of what he did and sought reconciliation with the Pope.
There's a lesson in that for modern politicians, what they are doing, they are doing for economic and political convenience, they are pandering to extremists as Henry did and that's dangerous. Let's be honest, the Reformation DWARFS things like the inquisition when it comes to burning people at the stake. The ordinary folk got so pissed off with those lunatic extremists who used Henry to control everybody else that they themselves became subject to persecution and had to fvck off to America.
Our politicians are doing the same thing today, pandering to an extremist ideology for their own ends at the expense of everybody else.

What extremist ideology are they pandering to and how are they doing it?

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

I know all there is to know already . You display an ignorance of events on these islands. Henry the 8th was a successful tyrant who abolished Catholicism in Britain not because he believed in the reformation. He did it so he could divorce and execute his wives one by one. He did this in order to remarry and father a male heir because the Pope refused him an a divorce or annulment.

Henry the 8th didn't bring in the penal laws. Sure Henry used the reformation for political gains rather than religious ones but you are picking one single example out of hundreds of years of history. You are using one event that's hundreds of years separated from the example I gave to try and disprove it.

And stop calling me ignorant. I'm not the one who believes the religion didn't play a part in the reformation. I'm not the one who misread a post so I could accuse a person of having a go at Christianity when it clearly stated every religion.

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

A man I admire and respect who doesn't rely on tired learned off mindless slander like the above, a man who leftists fear to debate with because they come away from it severely embarrassed

Dr Jordan B Peterson

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/855568725801443328?lang=en

Well that completely disprove me. Obviously the people who are ranting on about the repeal the 8th or who keep using proven falsehoods like "Sweden is the rape capital of Europe" are completely rational and don't have an irrational hatred of a group.

You proved me so wrong. Now if you don't mind I'm off to spit at a muslim on a bus and rip a headscarf off a fascist.

btw, in case you didn't realise it, that was sarcasm. There are people who have an irrational hatred of Muslims despite those Muslims never doing anything wrong. That is islamaphobia.

conorhal

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What extremist ideology are they pandering to and how are they doing it?

Captain Obvious, is your username ironic?

RustyNut

Grayson wrote: »

You are absolutely crazy. Seriously, that's proper tinfoil hat type stuff.

And don't forget this jem.

James 007 wrote: »

Another incident relates to killing a girl and using her as meat, I dont know the full facts of this one but have read it somewhere.

WinnyThePoo

conorhal wrote: »

Captain Obvious, is your username ironic?

Unwilling to answer the question?.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

Yeah. It was a christian group that persecuted a christian group. And it lasted centuries.

For some reason when islamaphobes look at European history they ignore every single conflict that didn't involve Muslims and turn a millennium into Muslims Vs Christians instead of looking at the fact that everyone fought everyone else.

Every single christian nation fought everyone that bordered them. It didn't matter what religion they were. And the same goes for Muslims. And if you leave Europe you see it was the same all over the world.

Which is why history bears little relevance on the issues of modern day immigration. People can find all manner of reasons to excuse behavior. The pro-immigration groups can point to when Islamic culture was a beacon for research and learning (although TBH I'm skeptical about this), and the anti-immigration crowd can point to the repeated military attempts to expand Islamic power into Europe.

It's a circular argument that has no end which is probably why they love it so much.

Grayson wrote: »

I'm not doing a hatchet job on Christianity. I specifically said every single religion. The fact that you read that into what I said says more about you than me.
And yes it was anti catholic. to deny that religion played any part in the reformation and all the wars that resulted is willful blindness. Sure politics played a part as certain kingdoms tried to use religion as a reason to gain an advantage but religion was involved. That was the point of the reformation.

You need to spend some time reading up on all of this.

The Catholic Church has always been, first and foremost, a political entity. To wield the power of Gods faithful in the physical world. It's only within the last few decades that there has been a suggestion otherwise. And only a suggestion.

Still.. Islamic faith is also political. The place that their Imams hold within society reflects the control and power of the faith, and the sheer amount of rules that intertwine with their culture reinforce it. Then again, Christianity was the same. Most religions are.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

Yet some people have the gall to say that there are loons on both sides.

Ok. I'm definitely stating that there are extreme views on both sides. There are posters here posting viewpoints which are silly, ignorant, etc.

The idea that there aren't posters here with liberal viewpoints who blindly believe in immigration regardless of the objections placed just shows how little you've been reading it. [You've said yourself that you wouldn't want to go back finding posts that you'd missed]. The right wing extreme ideas are easy to spot... but then so too are the treehugging love thy neighbor crap posts too.

This thread is full of nutjob ideas.

JohnMc1

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Just so I'm clear here. You think the left is pushing through the repeal referendum in order to get more Irish people to abort children so that they can import more people from Africa? For what purpose?

Population replacement. Why else do you think this is only being forced on our Countries? If Multiculturalism actually worked don't you think it would be more beneficial to implement it on 3rd World Countries first in order to raise them up to 1st world status?

conorhal

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Unwilling to answer the question?.

No, because it's 'Obviously' self explanatory. Are you unaware of title of the thread?
So for the cheap seats and those of limited comprehension ability.
The dangerous ideology the government is pandering to is Islam.

Brae100

masculinist wrote: »

A man I admire and respect who doesn't rely on tired learned off mindless slander like the above, a man who leftists fear to debate with because they come away from it severely embarrassed

Dr Jordan B Peterson

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/855568725801443328?lang=en

Christopher Hitchens coined that phrase first.

The definition of Islamophobia is a dislike of Muslims or Islam, especially as a political force. I dislike Islam, especially as a political force, so am obviously an Islamophobe. I don't see the problem with being Islamophobic. A dislike of Islam has absolutely nothing to do with racism or bigotry.

JohnMc1

Brae100 wrote: »

Christopher Hitchens coined that phrase first.

The definition of Islamophobia is a dislike of Muslims or Islam, especially as a political force. I dislike Islam, especially as a political force, so am obviously an Islamophobe. I don't see the problem with being Islamophobic. A dislike of Islam has absolutely nothing to do with racism or bigotry.

To quote Bill Maher: "The more you know about Islam. The more you should be afraid."

conorhal

JohnMc1 wrote: »

To quote Bill Maher: "The more you know about Islam. The more you should be afraid."

As somebody that has both read the Koran and lived in Saudi Arabia for three years, a Jew like Maher should not just be afraid, but freakin' terrified.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

And stop calling me ignorant..

Its an unfortunate thing that the egos of virtue signallers keep getting in the way of a reasonable discussion. This thread isnt about your ego.

Eventually the majority of people will completely ignore such people whos epic tantrums litter this and other threads. The tide of history is not in your favor.

Captain Obvious

conorhal wrote: »

Captain Obvious, is your username ironic?

Didn't expect an answer.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Population replacement. Why else do you think this is only being forced on our Countries? If Multiculturalism actually worked don't you think it would be more beneficial to implement it on 3rd World Countries first in order to raise them up to 1st world status?

What's the motivation for replacing out population?

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

Well that completely disprove me. Obviously the people who are ranting on about the repeal the 8th or who keep using proven falsehoods like "Sweden is the rape capital of Europe" are completely rational and don't have an irrational hatred of a group.

.

you're unbelievable bigoted and you don't even realise it .

You only see human beings in collectivist terms. Those in your gang and those outside. You are the living embodiment of ''othering' others you disagree with . That collectivist mindset has led historically to the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people. So in your precious world all those who disagree with you about abortion also disagree with you about immigration and islam and so on and so forth.

By the way , Sweden's no go zones and rape problems are confirmed by its own government.

Useful idiots will only face reality when the jackboot is crushing their own testiclles.

WinnyThePoo

conorhal wrote: »

No, because it's 'Obviously' self explanatory. Are you unaware of title of the thread?
So for the cheap seats and those of limited comprehension ability.
The dangerous ideology the government is pandering to is Islam.

Ah resorting to ad hominem. You haven't answered his question at all. Try harder.

Brae100

France have refused to grant citizenship to a Muslim woman because she refused to shake the hand of a man. Good for them. Refusing to shake the hand of a member of the opposite sex is a sure sign of lack of willingness to integrate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43839655

JohnMc1

conorhal wrote: »

As somebody that has both read the Koran and lived in Saudi Arabia for three years, a Jew like Maher should not just be afraid, but freakin' terrified.

Everybody should be terrified. Its convert or die with them.

conorhal

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Ah resorting to ad hominem. You haven't answered his question at all. Try harder.

I thought I did, bluntly, what answer were you expecting?

Brae100

The latest IPSOS poll in Sweden regarding immigration has seen an increase in the amount of Swedes who want fewer refugees, from 36% in 2015 to 60%.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180421/six-out-of-ten-voters-in-sweden-want-fewer-refugees-poll

JohnMc1

Brae100 wrote: »

The latest IPSOS poll in Sweden regarding immigration has seen an increase in the amount of Swedes who want fewer refugees, from 36% in 2015 to 60%.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180421/six-out-of-ten-voters-in-sweden-want-fewer-refugees-poll

It will be interesting to follow their elections in Sept. Will actually vote for a change or do like France did and chicken out and vote for the establishment again when the media no doubt trots out the "Fascists and Nazi imagery" for the anti-immigration parties.

conorhal

Brae100 wrote: »

The latest IPSOS poll in Sweden regarding immigration has seen an increase in the amount of Swedes who want fewer refugees, from 36% in 2015 to 60%.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180421/six-out-of-ten-voters-in-sweden-want-fewer-refugees-poll

This rapid increase of senseless racism needs to be tackled! Can we blame Russian bots? It must be the Russian bots!

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is why history bears little relevance on the issues of modern day immigration. People can find all manner of reasons to excuse behavior. The pro-immigration groups can point to when Islamic culture was a beacon for research and learning (although TBH I'm skeptical about this), and the anti-immigration crowd can point to the repeated military attempts to expand Islamic power into Europe.

It's a circular argument that has no end which is probably why they love it so much.



The Catholic Church has always been, first and foremost, a political entity. To wield the power of Gods faithful in the physical world. It's only within the last few decades that there has been a suggestion otherwise. And only a suggestion.

Still.. Islamic faith is also political. The place that their Imams hold within society reflects the control and power of the faith, and the sheer amount of rules that intertwine with their culture reinforce it. Then again, Christianity was the same. Most religions are.

How political islam is depends on the country. It varies from place to place.

As for the history bit, it occasionally matters. Obviously we can look at the post WW1 era to see a lot of the causes of today's problems in the middle east. However to say that wars between Muslims and Christians in the middle ages are indicative of some deeper truth is just wrong. Literally every single ethnic, religious and national group on the planet was fighting each other.

RustyNut

Brae100 wrote: »

The latest IPSOS poll in Sweden regarding immigration has seen an increase in the amount of Swedes who want fewer refugees, from 36% in 2015 to 60%.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180421/six-out-of-ten-voters-in-sweden-want-fewer-refugees-poll

From the same poll.

Conversely, more people think immigration is an overall benefit to Sweden than those who think it is detrimental.

Captain Obvious

masculinist wrote: »

you're unbelievable bigoted and you don't even realise it .

You only see human beings in collectivist terms. Those in your gang and those outside. You are the living embodiment of ''othering' others you disagree with .

There's the victim card. "People judge me for my bigoted opinions. It's not fair."

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

you're unbelievable bigoted and you don't even realise it .

You only see human beings in collectivist terms. Those in your gang and those outside. You are the living embodiment of ''othering' others you disagree with . That collectivist mindset has led historically to the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people. So in your precious world all those who disagree with you about abortion also disagree with you about immigration and islam and so on and so forth.

By the way , Sweden's no go zones and rape problems are confirmed by its own government.

Useful idiots will only face reality when the jackboot is crushing their own testiclles.

The Sweden thing is a myth. I can't be bothered looking for it but search my posts for no-go zones and sweden and you'll find a detailed debunking.

And feck off with calling me a bigot. What I do is point out lies. Most of my posts are countering false information or inaccurate logic. Once again, go look at them. All my posts are freely available to see. The reason I mentioned abortion is because someone on your side of the argument did. They said that muslims were in favour of repealing the 8th so that we would depopulate ourselves. I never made the link between the 8th amendment and islam I was, as I mentioned before, calling out a bullsh1t argument.

Grayson

RustyNut wrote: »

From the same poll.

It was the second line of the article. Talk about selective reading

gw80

Grayson wrote: »

The Sweden thing is a myth. I can't be bothered looking for it but search my posts for no-go zones and sweden and you'll find a detailed debunking.

And feck off with calling me a bigot. What I do is point out lies. Most of my posts are countering false information or inaccurate logic. Once again, go look at them. All my posts are freely available to see. The reason I mentioned abortion is because someone on your side of the argument did. They said that muslims were in favour of repealing the 8th so that we would depopulate ourselves. I never made the link between the 8th amendment and islam I was, as I mentioned before, calling out a bullsh1t argument.

Sorry but this post is very narcissistic.
What makes you right about everything?
Are you saying therr are no issues with immigrants in sweden?
Then why are we even speaking about sweden. Why have "our lot" or "our team" or the far right decided to pick on sweden and not some other European state?
What did sweden do to deserve all these lies and untruths to be said about it?

Brae100

Grayson wrote: »

It was the second line of the article. Talk about selective reading

Talk about selective reading indeed!

Captain Obvious

gw80 wrote: »

Sorry but this post is very narcissistic.
What makes you right about everything?
Are you saying therr are no issues with immigrants in sweden?
Then why are we even speaking about sweden. Why have "our lot" or "our team" or the far right decided to pick on sweden and not some other European state?
What did sweden do to deserve all these lies and untruths to be said about it?

It became successful and at the same time took care of it's citizens.

p1akuw47h5r3it

RustyNut wrote: »

From the same poll.

So what? I'd agree that a certain level of immigration is beneficial. What matters is the point upon which this positive starts turning into (and finally becomes) a negative. I believe that Swedes now believe they have hit this point, hence the 60% figure.

This is essentially the point that the likes of me, klav etc. are trying to make, if they don't mind me speaking on their behalf. Britain, France, Germany and Sweden have gone over this cliff. I don't want Ireland to do the same.

Wibbs

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It became successful and at the same time took care of it's citizens.

It became successful? Sweden has long been a powerhouse of industriousness. Hell the oldest continually operating company(Stora Kopparberg) in the world has been going for over six centuries. It really ramped up in the 20th century. I dunno where this becoming successful hails from. It certainly has eff all to do with immigration or immigrants. That success was happening long before that was happening in any numbers. Indeed it has been noted that the Swedish work ethic translates to their own emigres. EG In the US Swedish Americans are among the top most economic successes.

Politically like anywhere they've been variable and had the oul brush with fascism. The founder of IKEA was big into it in his youth. It never really garnered widespread grassroots levels, but its always been there and still is and right wing feeling seems to be growing, as it is in Europe in general. That's always a worry.

I suspect quite a large chunk of that is down to the sense that a large section of society feel that they and their concerns aren't being listened to. More, they're often talked down to. And it's usually the demographic of society that are most affected by immigration. Not unlike the situation in Ireland regarding Travellers rights. The upmarket suburban "liberals" are all about "diversity" and "equality", so long as it's some other poor buggers who have to deal with it on a daily basis, both locals and non locals. QV halting sites. If a proposal for one of them situated in Dort areas comes along, it's quickly shown to the wastepaper basket.

gw80

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It became successful and at the same time took care of it's citizens.

Maybe there was a time when they were close to that but they have destroyed any chance of that now on both counts

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

How political islam is depends on the country. It varies from place to place.

Not really. The place of the "priest" within Islamic culture is set. The difference is whether the Imam is actively political themselves. They all have the influence over their people.

As for the history bit, it occasionally matters. Obviously we can look at the post WW1 era to see a lot of the causes of today's problems in the middle east. However to say that wars between Muslims and Christians in the middle ages are indicative of some deeper truth is just wrong. Literally every single ethnic, religious and national group on the planet was fighting each other.

Yes, they were, however there are very strong elements beyond simple expansion of territory here. Culture matters. The perception of what is right and wrong matters. It's the same way that different political ideologies cannot coexist easily. Cultures based on religion follow absolutes. It's Gods word, and you don't negotiate with God. Western culture is mostly based on Catholic fundamentals but we have moved away from the absolute nature of the religion. Islamic culture has not.

And that is why the is going to be so much friction between those who adhere to Islamic culture, and those from western nations. We have a set of cultural beliefs which, while flexible, oppose the absolute nature of Islamic beliefs. Which is why moderate Muslims can be accepted to a degree because they're not seeking to impose their culture on others. Whereas those Muslims with strong beliefs will be obliged to impose their culture on their neighbors because it is Gods will to do so. It would have been the same if the belief in the Catholic Church had remained strong with the restrictions placed on our behavior. Islam would not be able to tolerate the existence of a different cultural ethic that was dominant within their own sphere of influence. It was different when they were a clear minority, but in countries where the populations of muslims are growing (artificially due to immigration) we are seeing an increase in Muslims demonstrating their beliefs in a public fashion. The gangs of youths imposing the Islamic versions of modesty on non-muslims being a good indication of that.

Colonialism was powered by Religion. Sure, there was the selfish needs for worldly wealth, but without the backing of the Church and the belief of doing God's will, Western nations wouldn't have spread so quickly.

Ultimately, Western society cannot pander as we have to Islamic culture. There needs to be a line drawn in the sand with a very pointy stick suggesting definite will to resist being crossed. Anything other than that will be seen as a sign of weakness, and they will push for change towards their way of thinking. You don't negotiate with Gods will.

Grayson

gw80 wrote: »

Sorry but this post is very narcissistic.
What makes you right about everything?
Are you saying therr are no issues with immigrants in sweden?
Then why are we even speaking about Sweden. Why have "our lot" or "our team" or the far right decided to pick on Sweden and not some other European state?
What did Sweden do to deserve all these lies and untruths to be said about it?

What makes me right when I post something is the fact that I'm careful. I research, I read, I look at sources and analyse them critically. I post links and I demonstrate clearly, in a logical manner, why someone is wrong. It can take an hour for me to reply sometimes.

There have been a few times where I got my facts wrong and I've apologised. Once where I multiplied a number and didn't carry a zero.

The posts I've been criticising have been saying that the reformation had nothing to do with religion. That Muslims want the 8th to be repealed so that we'll depopulate ourselves. And any amount of other crap. There are objectively lies or delusional.

This is the third time I've said this. All my posts are freely available for you to read. Go find one where I lied or used logic in the wrong way.

Or you could be like me and condemn those idiots who are making this crap up.

As for Sweden, I've debunked the lies about it before. Go look at those posts. There's a good chance you were in those threads and honestly I'm sick of having to disprove the same lies again and again.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really. The place of the "priest" within Islamic culture is set. The difference is whether the Imam is actively political themselves. They all have the influence over their people.



Yes, they were, however there are very strong elements beyond simple expansion of territory here. Culture matters. The perception of what is right and wrong matters. It's the same way that different political ideologies cannot coexist easily. Cultures based on religion follow absolutes. It's Gods word, and you don't negotiate with God. Western culture is mostly based on Catholic fundamentals but we have moved away from the absolute nature of the religion. Islamic culture has not.

And that is why the is going to be so much friction between those who adhere to Islamic culture, and those from western nations. We have a set of cultural beliefs which, while flexible, oppose the absolute nature of Islamic beliefs. Which is why moderate Muslims can be accepted to a degree because they're not seeking to impose their culture on others. Whereas those Muslims with strong beliefs will be obliged to impose their culture on their neighbors because it is Gods will to do so. It would have been the same if the belief in the Catholic Church had remained strong with the restrictions placed on our behavior. Islam would not be able to tolerate the existence of a different cultural ethic that was dominant within their own sphere of influence. It was different when they were a clear minority, but in countries where the populations of muslims are growing (artificially due to immigration) we are seeing an increase in Muslims demonstrating their beliefs in a public fashion. The gangs of youths imposing the Islamic versions of modesty on non-muslims being a good indication of that.

Colonialism was powered by Religion. Sure, there was the selfish needs for worldly wealth, but without the backing of the Church and the belief of doing God's will, Western nations wouldn't have spread so quickly.

Ultimately, Western society cannot pander as we have to Islamic culture. There needs to be a line drawn in the sand with a very pointy stick suggesting definite will to resist being crossed. Anything other than that will be seen as a sign of weakness, and they will push for change towards their way of thinking. You don't negotiate with Gods will.

Culture may matter but no-one has demonstrated that an islamic conquering culture exists today in any major form. Sure ISIS exist but they're a fringe group that the vast majority of muslims detest.
As for the gods will thing, I see that often. Firstly in the west we have plenty of religious people in power. In the US the religious right are very powerful. In Russia they jailed people for blasphemy. In Poland and Hungary you can see them too. People, whether they are Muslim or christian believe this nonsense.
However no-one is saying we need to stop american Christians or religious eastern Europeans from coming here. If they said that I'd think they were wrong but I would have a lot more respect for their argument if they applied it universally rather than targeting one group. You don't see protests against Jehovah's witnesses building a temple.
Secondly there seems to be a belief that Muslims are proper Muslims but Christians aren't proper Christians. Muslims take their religion seriously, Christians don't. That's not true. Loads of muslims drink, loads of Christians are pioneers. There's a huge amount of variation within islam.

And no-one is suggesting "pandering". Let Muslims practice their religion. Let them build a mosque in kilkenny. None of that is pandering it's giving people the same rights Christians, Buddhists and everyone else has.

If a Muslim steps out of line and breaks the law then arrest them the same you would with anyone else. But don't restrict them in a way you wouldn't restrict others.

Finally, Imans. You might not know this but what an iman does varies depending upon the sect. In Shia islam they quite often act as community leaders but they don't get involved in politics. Conversely Sunni's tend to believe religion should be more political but the imans are only there to perform prayers in the mosque.
And of course the views of an iman can vary hugely amongst different congregations. Each country has it's own islamic councils and their interpretations can vary hugely. Hence in Saudi burka's are the norm but not really anywhere else. And even amongst imans in a particular country and belonging to the same sect there can be differences. Imans are not appointed by the councils, they are normally selected by their congregations and they can therefore interpret different things in different ways. I believe the only major exception to this is in Turkey where the government appoints them. So islam is more like non catholic/orthodox Christians in that manner. People can get rid of an iman or just go to a different mosque. There's not normally a central authority that appoints them. https://www.thoughtco.com/role-of-the-imam-2004527

Atoms for Peace

I think I heard it said somewhere that Islam was a religion of simple beliefs and strict laws.

Samuel T. Cogley

أعتقد أن الإسلام مثالي لأيرلندا.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

The Sweden thing is a myth. I can't be bothered looking for it but search my posts ..

Search your echo chamber eh .

The Swedish government loves censorship just as much as all the people in your echo chamber.

I'll break you in gently with a link. Sweden the world humanitarian superpower zending its army into an area is definitely suggesting 'no go' zone to me since the police arent up to the job. Armies are trained for warzones.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-violence/swedish-pm-does-not-rule-out-use-of-army-to-end-gang-violence-idUSKBN1F629L


Do you have a problem with Reuters which constantly peddles your bias daily but still cant cover this up ?

"Four people were shot dead in the first week of this year. One man died after picking up a hand grenade outside a subway station in a suburb of Stockholm."

Hand grenades ? No Go Zone. War Zone.

"Law and order is likely to be a major issue in a parliamentary election scheduled for September with the populist, opposition Sweden Democrats linking public concern about the rising crime rate to a large increase in the numbers of immigrants."

The Irish people do not want this . Do you understand ? Are you capable of understanding ? If the non colonial militarily neutral cash generous PC Humanitarian Superpower of Sweden cant assimilate them then nobody can.

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

Search your echo chamber eh .

The Swedish government loves censorship just as much as all the people in your echo chamber.

I'll break you in gently with a link. Sweden the world humanitarian superpower zending its army into an area is definitely suggesting 'no go' zone to me since the police arent up to the job. Armies are trained for warzones.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-violence/swedish-pm-does-not-rule-out-use-of-army-to-end-gang-violence-idUSKBN1F629L


Do you have a problem with Reuters which constantly peddles your bias daily but still cant cover this up ?



Hand grenades ? No Go Zone. War Zone.

If you can't be bothered to look for the post, once again that says more about you than me. You are in your own bubble and don't want to find information that doesn't fit your narative.

BTW Sweden is one of the freest countries when it comes to censorship. They are also ranked second in the world for press freedom.
https://rsf.org/en/sweden

The only way you can get a country like Sweden to fit your narrative is to live in a bubble.