Is Islam right for Ireland?

Thomas__.

Gravelly wrote: »

Summer In the City wrote: »

And what makes you think the people fleeing the country want to bring more extreme values with them. The Syrians I know here love a pint as much as I do.

See:

Germany.
Sweden.
United Kingdom.
United States.
Belgium.
Canada.
etc. etc. etc.

Surely even the most blinkered "refugees welcome" dreamer can't have missed all the islamic terrorism attacks of the past 20 years or so?

I can't recall any islamic terrorism attack in Europe in 1998. You're going ab bit too far back in time.

dav3

Brae100 wrote: »

Is anyone familiar with Anne Marie Waters? Leadrer of the new For Britain, anti-Islamic party. She is Irish born. Very good speaker.

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

Thomas__.

Calhoun wrote: »

We are just starting to shake off the last bits and pieces of the catholic church and its control over our society, we really have to be very careful how we thread with both new and old religions as we do not want to replace one with the other.

In a republic we should strive for complete segregation of church and state but let  people within the republic have their own personal beliefs.  Those personal beliefs however do not supersede the law of the land.

So to answer the question, no its not right for Ireland but maybe right for folk on a personal level. As long as we hold people of all fates and backgrounds to the same standard from a law perspective we should be ok.

100% agreement on my side with that post.

donegaLroad

Thomas__. wrote: »

You have mistaken me there. What I wrote about the left-right boxes isn't me falling for the modern propaganda as you said, it is my observation how old ideologies have become attractive once again for some people as they present themselves in 'new clothes'. The radicals on both sides are trying hard to come across more moderate to gain support and in a subtile way spread the old resentments wrapped in altered formula but which are still the same. Always denying to be in any way racist or fascist as one can't be that blunt with it these days as this would rather put some people off who otherwise share a certain propotion of their opinions. Similar with the far-left, seeking to bring about a violent revolution to bring down the capitalist system which is shown in riots during G20 or G7 Summits or any other major issue that leads to mass protests. The labelling is done by the two opposing factions and their followers.


I know that some people like yourself are inclined to dismiss this diversion as being outdated and unfit for our modern times. But to dismiss them as outdated doesn't make them go away as you can see in many European countries as well as in the USA with their alt-right movement (who even managed to get influence in the WH due to Trump being elected and this nasty 'sloppy Steve' Bannon been the driving force behind it). Fascism and Communism have discredited themselves in the 20th Century, but parts of their ideology still live on because there are still people who believe in them and who try to bring more people to believe in that too (once again). In order to gain support they have to alter their propaganda approach to make it less obvious what is behind it. For that to see one has to be familiar with the cores of both ideologies which means to know as much about it to detect it when it shows its face again. The new cloaks they've chosen to cover the real ideas is just a mask that doesn't holds fast cos one time it simply breaks through and often when they are among themselves and think that nobody is watching them so that they can freely speak their mind and show what sort of people they really are. Some who were not aware of that before might have their awakening and leave, others might enjoy it as they think that they've found the right place to be.


Maybe you didn't bother too much with the history and the core values of these ideologies and the way how they survived in the decades after their downfall. I say that they are not dead, they never really were, they were just put out of power after what their followers and representatives have done to people. It is very hard to really 'kill' ideologies because for that there must be nobody ever taking them up again.


You can replace right with 'anti-Muslim' or 'anti-immigration' and left with 'pro-Muslim' and 'pro-immigration' and still you would have the same people on the extreme sides who are under the influence of the old ideologies as one can also put the label of 'nationalism' versus 'internationalism' on it. It is just a change of terms, nothing more.  

Then there are people who are just between the extremes, just like you and me. I detest racism and still have some prejudices towards some cultures because of my experiences and in some ways because they are not for me, or in another expression, aren't of my liking. I don't have such imaginations in my mind like you do, I see radicals always following the same patterns, just to change the symbols and ideology. Radical Islamists have the means to make a semi-political ideology out of Islam and that is what they have done. Their strive for world dominance is no mere right-wing propaganda, it has been admitted quite bluntly by ISIS representatives who were interviewed by freelance journalists. The higher ranks, and more so those converts who are - as usual - the worst because they are often the top zealots among the Jihadists know about history and they know it very well. They used the patterns from it and tried to avoid the failures from the past, but as we have seen, it didn't work for that long to consolidate their Caliphat in Syria and Iraq to extent it further in the MidEast and as the next aim of them was, to Europe as well.


The MidEast is a very complicated and very sensitive area with problems that have been caused by the way the Allies of WWI have sliced up the former Ottoman Empire, drawing borders without considering the ethnical settlements in the whole area and thus put tribes and ethnical groups in one state in which they didn't want to live with the others (that includes the varieties within Islam). It was Europeans deciding on the fate and the future of people they didn't know anything about, just for the sake to order the MidEast in the way they saw fit and this was done between the French and the Brits in 1919 who got their mandate from the League of Nations to administer that region which included Palestine. Similar happened during the colonisation in Africa. The problems stemming from that time are still with us.


I see myself also as a pragmatist, but in contrast to you not conservative but centre-left leaning. In short I am a Social Democrat of the old meaning and in some ways, one could even say that it bears some conservatism too in regards of the grassroots of that. Believe it or not, if it wasn't for detecting the old extreme ideologies emerging on the surface once again I could well do without the right / left labels, but it doesn't alters the fact that old evil is about to rear its head once again.    
The serious issues you speak of are not just to see in the Republic of Ireland, they are present in many Western EU member states, though the Eastern EU member states have lesser problems of the likes because they don't have had the mass influx of refugees in the years 2015 and 2016. Plus there are fewer EU citizens going there to settle as their citizens have moved to Western EU member states. The EU has achieved to integrate the former Eastern Bloc countries but she has (not yet) achieved to overcome the old divide stemming from that time. Such matters take time and that means it takes decades, even generations to get over it.


As for the differences in interpreting Islam by Muslims, you can make doctrines out of everything that suits the purpose. Otherwise there wouldn't be hate preachers in Mosques. It is them who form the doctrines in the Islamic world who are themselves diehard conservatives and have the support by likeminded Muslims.  


It is interesting to notice your former pro-Israel stance as I have been of that like myself as well. I ceased to post on Israel threads as well because I have become fed up with the situation down there and more to the Point watching the diehards on both sides making live difficult for their people. I am not a Palestine sympathisers, in fact I don't like the Palestinians despite their suffering because partly they have brought some of it onto themselves and on the other part it is clear enough that much of it rests on the responsibility of Israel in this never ending circle of violence and retaliation. It is down there like it is in many parts on this planet where extremists and other sorts of radicals have power of people and try to change things by violence. Israel has often been left to respond in the same manner because the state is obliged to protect its citizens (Jewish and Arab alike). It is a very complicated matter and I rather stop here from going any further into it. I think that I might know what you meant regarding this.  

I agree with you on your last paragraph, just that I don't think that it could be easily solved unless one takes to radical measures and such a choosing would rather create new problems because it wouldn't go without response, at worst in a tit-for-tat way.

I cant take any more of what you post seriously, save your breath in future. Coming onto an Irish forum and declaring that the Palestinians brought it on themselves. Get a grip ffs

Thomas__.

donegaLroad wrote: »

I cant take any more of what you post seriously, save your breath in future. Coming onto an Irish forum and declaring that the Palestinians brought it on themselves. Get a grip ffs

There is an ignore facility on this site.

donegaLroad

Thomas__. wrote: »

There is an ignore facility on this site.

You can not make such ignorant declarations on here and expect that it will go un noticed. You said that 'the Palestinians have brought it on themselves'.

Care to expand on that?

Gravelly

Thomas__. wrote: »

I can't recall any islamic terrorism attack in Europe in 1998. You're going ab bit too far back in time.

There were Islamic terror attacks in Europe back as far as the 70's. I'm not going back far enough if you want to be pedantic.

Thomas__.

Gravelly wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

I can't recall any islamic terrorism attack in Europe in 1998. You're going ab bit too far back in time.

There were Islamic terror attacks in Europe back as far as the 70's. I'm not going back far enough if you want to be pedantic.

I don't want to be pedantic, I might recall something from the 1970s, now as you throw in that decade. But one has to be 'careful' because some posters are getting tetchy when mentioning the Palestinians, more so when they were connected to terror attacks or hijacking planes. Thanks for mentioning the 70's anyway.

Gravelly

Thomas__. wrote: »

I don't want to be pedantic, I might recall something from the 1970s, now as you throw in that decade. But one has to be 'carful' because some posters are getting techy when mentioning the Palestinians, more so when they were connected to terror attacks or hijacking planes. Thanks for mentioning the 70's anyway.

No bother - it's an awkward fact for many of their supporters here that the Palestinians had a bit of a penchant for hijacking (and occasionally blowing up) airplanes (and school buses, children etc.) before they got a bit smarter with their PR.

Odhinn

Gravelly wrote: »

No bother - it's an awkward fact for many of their supporters here that the Palestinians had a bit of a penchant for hijacking (and occasionally blowing up) airplanes (and school buses, children etc.) before they got a bit smarter with their PR.

...back when they were part of the "socialist menace". Amazing how the excuses change, but the colonial project goes steadily on.

Thomas__.

Gravelly wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

I don't want to be pedantic, I might recall something from the 1970s, now as you throw in that decade. But one has to be 'carful' because some posters are getting techy when mentioning the Palestinians, more so when they were connected to terror attacks or hijacking planes. Thanks for mentioning the 70's anyway.

No bother - it's an awkward fact for many of their supporters here that the Palestinians had a bit of a penchant for hijacking (and occasionally blowing up) airplanes (and school buses, children etc.) before they got a bit smarter with their PR.

Your post was certainly a reminder to me for many things from that decade. Who is talking about the PLO these days and what they have done in the Name of the cause to 'free Palestine'? Hamas is even worse then them but curious enough Araft got the Nobel Peace Price together with Rabin in 1993. Both killed afterwards, Rabin by far-right radical Jew in November 1994 and Arafat allegedly poisoned by Hamas some years later. The road map then was a stepping stone towards peace there, but as usual, sadly the Hardliners have wrecked it once again and I presume that the chances for peace between Israel and Palestine have utterly decreased.

I have noticed that whenever one raises the Palestinian topic, the harshest responses come from Shinners. Well, I am not surprised about that at all, as there was much more than just 'sympathy' between the PLO and the PIRA as well as to other far-left terrorist organisations like the Red Army Faction of West-Germany.

The deep rooted antisemitism among the Arabs has a Tradition that certainly dates back centuries, but one connection in the last century was certainly that of the 'special friend' of Adolf Hitler which was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a certain Amin Al-Husseini. Surprise, surprise, he was a Palestinian Arab himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

Wasn't that long ago. Now with the influx of antisemitic Arabs from certain refugee countries, antisemitism in Europe is growing again, as if the old and new Neo-Nazis weren't enough, as well as the also antisemitic far-left nutters as well.

garbo speaks

My brother is a secondary school teacher and can't stand his Muslim students. They won't participate or engage with the other students and refuse to partake in many school activities. He says the parents are even worse- arrogant, bullish and confrontational. They just don't mix with westerners.

donegaLroad

Thomas__. wrote: »

Your post was certainly a reminder to me for many things from that decade. Who is talking about the PLO these days and what they have done in the Name of the cause to 'free Palestine'? Hamas is even worse then them but curious enough Araft got the Nobel Peace Price together with Rabin in 1993. Both killed afterwards, Rabin by far-right radical Jew in November 1994 and Arafat allegedly poisoned by Hamas some years later. The road map then was a stepping stone towards peace there, but as usual, sadly the Hardliners have wrecked it once again and I presume that the chances for peace between Israel and Palestine have utterly decreased.

I have noticed that whenever one raises the Palestinian topic, the harshest responses come from Shinners. Well, I am not surprised about that at all, as there was much more than just 'sympathy' between the PLO and the PIRA as well as to other far-left terrorist organisations like the Red Army Faction of West-Germany.

The deep rooted antisemitism among the Arabs has a Tradition that certainly dates back centuries, but one connection in the last century was certainly that of the 'special friend' of Adolf Hitler which was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a certain Amin Al-Husseini. Surprise, surprise, he was a Palestinian Arab himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

Wasn't that long ago. Now with the influx of antisemitic Arabs from certain refugee countries, antisemitism in Europe is growing again, as if the old and new Neo-Nazis weren't enough, as well as the also antisemitic far-left nutters as well.

For the benefit of other posters here, who may not know what this diversion is about... and I am aware that this debate belongs to another thread, none-the-less I can't sit idly by and allow someone to make the preposterous statement that the Palestinians have 'brought it upon themselves'.

Have you no shame?


*I am not a 'Shinner' by the way

Geuze

garbo speaks wrote: »

My brother is a secondary school teacher and can't stand his Muslim students. They won't participate or engage with the other students and refuse to partake in many school activities. He says the parents are even worse- arrogant, bullish and confrontational. They just don't mix with westerners.

Interesting info, although only anecdotal.

Where are they from?

Hector Savage

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

She is branded a Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .

edit heres the tweet from the man himself

https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/988514269464440832




These days if you don't go along with the Guardian "Islam is feminist" attitude you are a far right nazi ...

Hector Savage

Brae100 wrote: »

Is anyone familiar with Anne Marie Waters? Leadrer of the new For Britain, anti-Islamic party. She is Irish born. Very good speaker.

Yes, she is spot on .

Hector Savage

garbo speaks wrote: »

My brother is a secondary school teacher and can't stand his Muslim students. They won't participate or engage with the other students and refuse to partake in many school activities. He says the parents are even worse- arrogant, bullish and confrontational. They just don't mix with westerners.

Yep my brother is a teacher in Brussels, they were celebrating after the Paris attacks/Brussels attacks.

He has to keep quiet about it tho else he could be fired.

Thomas__.

Hector Savage wrote: »

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

She is branded a  Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .


These days if you don't go along with the Guardian "Islam is feminist" attitude you are a far right nazi ...

That might apply in some cases for some people but I doubt that it is wrong to call that woman what she is, given herself being part of the far-right movement in the UK and a 'former member' of UKIP. Now that Britain First leaders faced prosecution (in NI for example) and the UKIP is on the decline, this 'For Britain' might replace them.

dav3

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is branded a Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .


These days if you don't go along with the Guardian "Islam is feminist" attitude you are a far right nazi ...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukip-loser-anne-marie-waters-will-start-far-right-party-fsgps673r

Anne Marie Waters, who won 21.3 per cent of the vote in the Ukip leadership election, said she left after she and her supporters were branded “Nazis and racists” by Nigel Farage and Henry Bolton, the party’s new leader.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/police-prepare-protest-far-right-1115306

Anne Marie Waters was branded a Nazi an a racist by Nigel Farage and lost a bid to lead Ukip. She went on to form her own political party called For Britain.

Nigel Farage, that Guardian reading, sjw, liberal, communist, cuck. This is how brexit and trump happened, etc, etc.

I can definitely see her appealing to the half dozen far-right loons in this country alright.

Gravelly

garbo speaks wrote: »

My brother is a secondary school teacher and can't stand his Muslim students. They won't participate or engage with the other students and refuse to partake in many school activities. He says the parents are even worse- arrogant, bullish and confrontational. They just don't mix with westerners.

I coach several sports teams, and have several Muslim guys on my teams. If one were to go by them, one would make the assumption that all Muslims in Ireland are great mixers, secular, speak perfect English, have friends of all creeds and none, and are a great addition to the country. I think it's guys like these that make a lot of posters on here think that all immigrants are a positive influence.
The thing is, it is a false impression. The guys playing sports, joining youth clubs etc. are the exception - it's the ones who are devout, who don't mix well, avoid non-muslims, don't play sport or any extra-curricular activities with those they see as the Kafir, they are the ones that will present potential problems, and they are the ones the "refugees welcome" crowd don't or won't see. From speaking with teachers, they make up the majority of Muslim immigrants.

Thomas__.

dav3 wrote: »

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is branded a  Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .


These days if you don't go along with the Guardian "Islam is feminist" attitude you are a far right nazi ...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukip-loser-anne-marie-waters-will-start-far-right-party-fsgps673r

Anne Marie Waters, who won 21.3 per cent of the vote in the Ukip leadership election, said she left after she and her supporters were branded “Nazis and racists” by Nigel Farage and Henry Bolton, the party’s new leader.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/police-prepare-protest-far-right-1115306

Anne Marie Waters was branded a Nazi an a racist by Nigel Farage and lost a bid to lead Ukip. She went on to form her own political party called For Britain.

Nigel Farage, that Guardian reading, sjw, liberal, communist, cuck. This is how brexit and trump happened, etc, etc.

I can definitely see her appealing to the half dozen far-right loons in this country alright.

Certainly. Best thing is Farage calling her that as he himself isn't far off the mark when it comes to the immigration topic and the propaganda in which he used pictures of many refugees coming to Europe during the BrexitRef campaign.

Wibbs

donegaLroad wrote: »

I cant take any more of what you post seriously, save your breath in future. Coming onto an Irish forum and declaring that the Palestinians brought it on themselves. Get a grip ffs

While I take your point, to be fair you left out the rest of his sentence: and on the other part it is clear enough that much of it rests on the responsibility of Israel in this never ending circle of violence and retaliation. For me anyway there have been a long line of sh1theads driving ordinary people and politics on both sides of that conflict, the main difference being Israel gets far more practical western, mostly US, support. As you note the historical maps of the place cannot be denied. That the region has essentially been planted like large areas of Ireland was by the English in the past is not really up for debate. It's no wonder that the Irish of all people would have a sympathy for the Palestinians. I certainly would. On the other hand I also have much sympathy and admiration for how the post WW2 Jews forged a new country.

Wibbs

Gravelly wrote: »

The thing is, it is a false impression. The guys playing sports, joining youth clubs etc. are the exception - it's the ones who are devout, who don't mix well, avoid non-muslims, don't play sport or any extra-curricular activities with those they see as the Kafir, they are the ones that will present potential problems, and they are the ones the "refugees welcome" crowd don't or won't see. From speaking with teachers, they make up the majority of Muslim immigrants.

I quite simply wouldn't have near enough on the ground personal experience to agree or disagree with you about the percentages. I've known a fair few Muslims from all over the Arab world and the ones I knew at least were generally OK, with a few hard heads in the mix. Oddly the most hard headed ones I've known dressed and acted on the surface the most "western" and some of the most easy going and sound were often dressed in their traditional clothes. One thing that does stand out though is I've only known, met and chatted with Muslim men.

Kivaro

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

Why don't you have the balls to call her that then?
I don't know the woman but would love to see her legally coming after people who make these claims.

The day when being called a nazi/racist was the magic wand by people like you to end the discussion with an opposing view is long gone.

Gravelly

Wibbs wrote: »

I quite simply wouldn't have near enough on the ground personal experience to agree or disagree with you about the percentages. I've known a fair few Muslims from all over the Arab world and the ones I knew at least were generally OK, with a few hard heads in the mix. Oddly the most hard headed ones I've known dressed and acted on the surface the most "western" and some of the most easy going and sound were often dressed in their traditional clothes. One thing that does stand out though is I've only known, met and chatted with Muslim men.

Same experience here.

I work with and interact with people of all faiths and none, all over the world regularly, and travel to many countries for work (including Iran), and I think Islam is a negative influence on populations pretty much everywhere it flourishes.

ArthurDayne

Gravelly wrote: »

I coach several sports teams, and have several Muslim guys on my teams. If one were to go by them, one would make the assumption that all Muslims in Ireland are great mixers, secular, speak perfect English, have friends of all creeds and none, and are a great addition to the country. I think it's guys like these that make a lot of posters on here think that all immigrants are a positive influence.
The thing is, it is a false impression. The guys playing sports, joining youth clubs etc. are the exception - it's the ones who are devout, who don't mix well, avoid non-muslims, don't play sport or any extra-curricular activities with those they see as the Kafir, they are the ones that will present potential problems, and they are the ones the "refugees welcome" crowd don't or won't see. From speaking with teachers, they make up the majority of Muslim immigrants.

I find it both interesting and illustrative that you place your own personal experience with Muslim people as secondary to what you hear other people saying.

Gravelly

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I find it both interesting and illustrative that you place your own personal experience with Muslim people as secondary to what you hear other people saying.

I'm delighted to be able to interest and illustrate your life a little.

BTW, I don't put my personal experience second - I posted what my personal experience with a particular segment of the immigrant population is - I'm well aware of the other cohort, since I travel the world as part of my job, including to majority Islamic countries, ad I've seen first hand what mass immigration has produced in Sweden, Germany, and France.

Thomas__.

Wibbs wrote: »

donegaLroad wrote: »

I cant take any more of what you post seriously, save your breath in future. Coming onto an Irish forum and declaring that the Palestinians brought it on themselves. Get a grip ffs

While I take your point, to be fair you left out the rest of his sentence: and on the other part it is clear enough that much of it rests on the responsibility of Israel in this never ending circle of violence and retaliation. For me anyway there have been a long line of sh1theads driving ordinary people and politics on both sides of that conflict, the main difference being Israel gets far more practical western, mostly US, support. As you note the historical maps of the place cannot be denied. That the region has essentially been planted like large areas of Ireland was by the English in the past is not really up for debate. It's no wonder that the Irish of all people would have a sympathy for the Palestinians. I certainly would. On the other hand I also have much sympathy and admiration for how the post WW2 Jews forged a new country.

That is projection by comparison. Ireland was occupied and ruled by the English for centuries, Palestine was by the name of it an ancient Roman Province and afterwards continued to be under foreign rule for the longest time by the Ottoman Empire, the Turks. It is a bit more complicated with Palestine than with Ireland, despite some certain parallels and similarities. Well, that's my view. As for the other poster who got upset by my post, I don't follow his posts anymore. I have seen enough of the likes of him and frankly, I couldn't care less what they bother themselves with posts on message boards to get annoyed. I don't care about such people anymore at all.

Hector Savage

Gravelly wrote: »

I coach several sports teams, and have several Muslim guys on my teams. If one were to go by them, one would make the assumption that all Muslims in Ireland are great mixers, secular, speak perfect English, have friends of all creeds and none, and are a great addition to the country. I think it's guys like these that make a lot of posters on here think that all immigrants are a positive influence.
The thing is, it is a false impression. The guys playing sports, joining youth clubs etc. are the exception - it's the ones who are devout, who don't mix well, avoid non-muslims, don't play sport or any extra-curricular activities with those they see as the Kafir, they are the ones that will present potential problems, and they are the ones the "refugees welcome" crowd don't or won't see. From speaking with teachers, they make up the majority of Muslim immigrants.

Exactly, did you hear Johnathan Healy a few weeks back presenting Pat Kennys show on NewsTalk ... he had someone on talking about the refugees in the west or Ireland - now genuine refugees fair enough, but this guy was going on about how these people are one step away from being as Irish as any of us ... like wtf ?
why deny reality ?

And then Johnathan Healy - do they support Mayo or Sligo ???

Good one Jonathan you are so woke in your gated community that you'll never have to deal with the negative aspects of all this.

Gravelly

Hector Savage wrote: »

Exactly, did you hear Johnathan Healy a few weeks back presenting Pat Kennys show on NewsTalk ... he had someone on talking about the refugees in the west or Ireland - now genuine refugees fair enough, but this guy was going on about how these people are one step away from being as Irish as any of us ... like wtf ?
why deny reality ?

And then Johnathan Healy - do they support Mayo or Sligo ???

Good one Jonathan you are so woke in your gated community that you'll never have to deal with the negative aspects of all this.

Didn't hear that - must see if its podcasted.

Wibbs

Thomas__. wrote: »

That is projection by comparison.

Naturally and it's an understandable one.

For fun let's swap out one country for another...

Ireland was occupied and ruled by the English for centuries, Greece was by the name of it an ancient Roman Province and afterwards continued to be under foreign rule for the longest time by the Ottoman Empire, the Turks.

If people from outside Greece laid claim to it after WW2 and over the decades since drove the people already there into ever smaller walled off regions I'd have sympathy for them too. Granted it is more complicated, but I'd stand by my sympathy for Palestinians and for ordinary Israelis. Though both have a siege mentality bred into them from birth.

dav3

Kivaro wrote: »

Why don't you have the balls to call her that then?
I don't know the woman but would love to see her legally coming after people who make these claims.

The day when being called a nazi/racist was the magic wand by people like you to end the discussion with an opposing view is long gone.

You're right, I really hope she goes after the leftist marxist ukip and Farage for calling her a racist and a nazi.

I think she should continue doing exactly what she's doing. She's playing a blinder.

Thomas__.

Kivaro wrote: »

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

Why don't you have the balls to call her that then?
I don't know the woman but would love to see her legally coming after people who make these claims.

The day when being called a nazi/racist was the magic wand by people like you to end the discussion with an opposing view is long gone.

You don't know that woman and presumably don't know what she said herself but you're quite up to defend her and like to see he sue others for calling her what she is by her own convictions. I really wonder when, under which circumstances you see Fascists and Nazis as that what they are. Maybe just when they take to the old symbols and show the Fascist / Nazi salute. They have worked out more subtle approaches to get their 'message' through and judging by some posts on this and other sites it proves that this new strategy is working rather well.

What I read on this thread about Muslims and refugees is not that far from what can read from Brexiteers on UK Websites in regards of all foreigners, especially Polish people which they have singled out for their abuse against EU nationals in general. Not giving the f*ck of a thought to the consequences if it would go the way these far-right and right-wing hate preachers want to have it. They talk about these people as if they were all 'parasites on the social system' and none of them would work. Well, that isn't the case by the majority of them as they work and they work in jobs which not less natives would certainly decline to take on. Part of them are self-employed and merchants, not less of them work in the health system which is facing the worst and be brought to collaps once the foreigners were to leave the country because it isn't that easy to replace qualified and experienced staff in such a department by natives who have neither a clue about the job nor the qualifications for it. But this is what nutters from BNP to UKIP, EDL, Britain First and now For Britain want and propagade. Now seriously in your opinion it is wrong to call them what they are?

I say it right here, the above listed organisations are imo all f'cking far-right organisations with bigotted tossers in their ranks and not less of them are pure Nazis and everyone who associates oneself with them and supports them shares their believes and it takes something to exculpate oneself from them if one isn't inclined to distance oneself from that bunch of hatemongers.

JohnMc1

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

If you're views are anything against the Left's narrative you're automatically a Nazi and a racist in their eyes.

JohnMc1

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If you're views are anything against the Left's narrative you're automatically a Nazi and a racist in their eyes.

The sad thing thing is that the Left doesn't see that everytime they call someone a Nazi for simply disagreeing with them they diminish the evil that Hitler did and they're diminishing real acts of racism just for shouting racism/t over the least little thing.

Thomas__.

Wibbs wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

That is projection by comparison.

Naturally and it's an understandable one.

For fun let's swap out one country for another...

Ireland was occupied and ruled by the English for centuries, Greece was by the name of it an ancient Roman Province and afterwards continued to be under foreign rule for the longest time by the Ottoman Empire, the Turks.

If people from outside Greece laid claim to it after WW2 and over the decades since drove the people already there into ever smaller walled off regions I'd have sympathy for them too. Granted it is more complicated, but I'd stand by my sympathy for Palestinians and for ordinary Israelis. Though both have a siege mentality bred into them from birth.

You don't have to go that far to see the similarities, just a step up North to NI. I stick to it, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians but I don't have to. That is because the ordinary people of the Palestinians still support their terror organisations and as an Irishman, you surely know yourself that the IRA had never drawn the GFA with the Brits and the Irish govt if it wasn't for SF being their political arm in all that it took to reach that agreement. Hamas is both, a terror organisation and the political arm of it. As long as they have a major say in their own affairs with Israel and continue with terror attacks, there will never be peace cos Israel can't, won't and will not afford to let her own people down and bow to terrorists and they are perfectly right in this. The extension of new settlements in occupied areas of Palestine are another matter, wrong doing on the side of the Israeli govt, more so as the new settlers are mostly radicals themselves.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I quite simply wouldn't have near enough on the ground personal experience to agree or disagree with you about the percentages. I've known a fair few Muslims from all over the Arab world and the ones I knew at least were generally OK, with a few hard heads in the mix. Oddly the most hard headed ones I've known dressed and acted on the surface the most "western" and some of the most easy going and sound were often dressed in their traditional clothes. One thing that does stand out though is I've only known, met and chatted with Muslim men.

I've known quite a few Muslim families, and young Muslims before they married. The amount of Muslims from multiple countries who came to China for university qualifications were quite high due to the low tuition costs there.

In my experience, in small groups or individually most muslms are lovely men. Gentle, respectful, etc. I wouldn't have any issues with them at all except that all they need is one devout muslim and the whole group dynamic changes. It's a lot like some guys we all encounter, on their own they're great but put them in a group and they turn into an asshole. Muslims are a lot like that.

As for Muslim women, they're usually kept away from non-believers and anyone not of her/his family. Unless they're widowed or divorced in which case they seem to have this free pass to communicate with others. Still... I think there's a lot of ignorance about Muslim women here. Naturally so considering the levels of "protection" they receive, but it's also the western culture of forgiving/ignoring the bad crap women do. I've found that older Muslim women can be just as fanatical about their beliefs as the men, and quicker to cast blame on to others.

I dated a woman from Kazakhstan, and spent the whole time looking for daggers. Muslims I had known already known for years suddenly became possible enemies (I didn't know that would happen beforehand). It didn't matter where they were from or that their beliefs were different from hers, they would still have informed on us into the local gossip mill, and most Muslim men would have suddenly become her brothers "protecting" her virtue. Beautiful girl, but the stories she told me about her life, convinced me never to tolerate Islam within a western nation. I've no judgment over what they do to each other in their own countries, but I want none of it near my nieces.

I still have close Muslim friends. I consider them to be wonderful men, and their families are close to perfect... but even then, I don't trust their faith. They, as a people, are just too easily flipped by the rhetoric of another.

Thomas__.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

dav3 wrote: »

Is she the one branded a 'nazi and a racist'?

If you're views are anything against the Left's narrative you're automatically a Nazi and a racist in their eyes.

Same thing the other way round, if someone takes a differenciated view on the matter one is called a 'Lefty' and 'Muslim lover' by those who are against the Left and the Muslims. What is the merit in all this? IMO there is none.

Harika

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is branded a Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .
.

Far right doesn't equal Nazi so that's a red herring here. Anyway look at his guest list Johnny C. Taylor, Scott Adams, Stefan Molyneux, Glenn Beck, Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro, Sargon of Akkad, Katie Hopkins and Lauren Southern and tell me if you find a pattern here? The rest of his videos are full of "the left" "the regressive left" while important to discuss, where are his takes on "The alt right" or "the right"?

Thomas__.

Thomas__. wrote: »

You don't have to go that far to see the similarities, just a step up North to NI. I stick to it, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians but I don't have to. That is because the ordinary people of the Palestinians still support their terror organisations and as an Irishman, you surely know yourself that the IRA had never drawn the GFA with the Brits and the Irish govt if it wasn't for SF being their political arm in all that it took to reach that agreement. Hamas is both, a terror organisation and the political arm of it. As long as they have a major say in their own affairs with Israel and continue with terror attacks, there will never be peace cos Israel can't, won't and will not afford to let her own people down and bow to terrorists and they are perfectly right in this. The extension of new settlements in occupied areas of Palestine are another matter, wrong doing on the side of the Israeli govt, more so as the new settlers are mostly radicals themselves.

There are so many layers of propaganda, and revisionist history going on with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that it's incredibly difficult to get a clear idea of whats going on. It doesn't really matter what Palestinians do for their cause, Irish people will mostly turn a blind eye. You can see it whenever a Palestinian attack kills civilians, the excuses/justifications come flying out of the woodwork, and then the bile against Israel is always there.

As I said previously, I don't tend to post about Israel/Palestine anymore. It's a ****ty conflict with plenty of responsibility for whats happening available for both parties (and the other arab nations and the US). But you're never going to get a calm rational discussion on boards about it, even before the trolls started posting in large numbers. It's always been a very sensitive topic.

My advice is to steer clear of these kinds of discussions.

Odhinn

Thomas__. wrote: »

You don't have to go that far to see the similarities, just a step up North to NI. I stick to it, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians but I don't have to. That is because the ordinary people of the Palestinians still support their terror organisations and as an Irishman, you surely know yourself that the IRA had never drawn the GFA with the Brits and the Irish govt if it wasn't for SF being their political arm in all that it took to reach that agreement. Hamas is both, a terror organisation and the political arm of it. As long as they have a major say in their own affairs with Israel and continue with terror attacks, there will never be peace cos Israel can't, won't and will not afford to let her own people down and bow to terrorists and they are perfectly right in this. The extension of new settlements in occupied areas of Palestine are another matter, wrong doing on the side of the Israeli govt, more so as the new settlers are mostly radicals themselves.

No, that would be one of the issues at the heart of it.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

Thomas__.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

I quite simply wouldn't have near enough on the ground personal experience to agree or disagree with you about the percentages. I've known a fair few Muslims from all over the Arab world and the ones I knew at least were generally OK, with a few hard heads in the mix. Oddly the most hard headed ones I've known dressed and acted on the surface the most "western" and some of the most easy going and sound were often dressed in their traditional clothes. One thing that does stand out though is I've only known, met and chatted with Muslim men.

I've known quite a few Muslim families, and young Muslims before they married. The amount of Muslims from multiple countries who came to China for university qualifications were quite high due to the low tuition costs there.

In my experience, in small groups or individually most muslms are lovely men. Gentle, respectful, etc. I wouldn't have any issues with them at all except that all they need is one devout muslim and the whole group dynamic changes. It's a lot like some guys we all encounter, on their own they're great but put them in a group and they turn into an asshole. Muslims are a lot like that.

As for Muslim women, they're usually kept away from non-believers and anyone not of her/his family. Unless they're widowed or divorced in which case they seem to have this free pass to communicate with others. Still... I think there's a lot of ignorance about Muslim women here. Naturally so considering the levels of "protection" they receive, but it's also the western culture of forgiving/ignoring the bad crap women do. I've found that older Muslim women can be just as fanatical about their beliefs as the men, and quicker to cast blame on to others.

I dated a woman from Kazakhstan, and spent the whole time looking for daggers. Muslims I had known already known for years suddenly became possible enemies (I didn't know that would happen beforehand). It didn't matter where they were from or that their beliefs were different from hers, they would still have informed on us into the local gossip mill, and most Muslim men would have suddenly become her brothers "protecting" her virtue. Beautiful girl, but the stories she told me about her life, convinced me never to tolerate Islam within a western nation. I've no judgment over what they do to each other in their own countries, but I want none of it near my nieces.

I still have close Muslim friends. I consider them to be wonderful men, and their families are close to perfect... but even then, I don't trust their faith. They, as a people, are just too easily flipped by the rhetoric of another.

I have just highlighted some passages in your post and deliberately omitted to highlight the word Muslim in it. What you describe here are just human matters and I omitted 'Muslim' because you can replace that with any other word or term and get the same behaviour from people of different cultural background. Eventhough you admitted this yourself in your post, you still continued with keeping the focus on the Muslims. There is a lot, if not to say great deal, of generalisation going in this thread and the abuse which women suffer at the hands of their own husbands and within their own family from childhood onwards by non-Muslim men are carefully kept out of the debate, as if this only happened in Muslim families and couples. There are some specific rules as you have pointed out as being part of their culture. I wonder where their privacy starts at all and where others stop to interfere with their way of life as long as they do not attempt to impose their way of life on others. 

Interesting to learn how easy you have been influenced by a woman from Kazachstan and her stories which you would barely had even the chance to check whether it is true or exaggerated. No one will find that out as much as domestic violence in non-Muslim families are brushed under the carpet until the victim reports it to the Gardai / Police and it becomes public.

As for your example for older Muslim women, just look at the eldery females over in England and Wales who voted for Brexit and who can be just the way as you described the older Muslim woman. I don't see much of a difference here except the cultural background, but the behaviour is quite just the same. Easily incited and misled by skilled propagandists who know how to turn the minds of the ones who are likely to fall for their lies. It has split families down the middle and alienated close friends and for what? For a pipedream based on false propaganda and delusion.

It's a hard undertaking to keep a differenciated view and handling of the matter and bear the human factor in mind (such like the things you have mentioned above) and not be too quick on condemning a whole community but criticise where critics are needed.

dav3

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The sad thing thing is that the Left doesn't see that everytime they call someone a Nazi for simply disagreeing with them they diminish the evil that Hitler did and they're diminishing real acts of racism just for shouting racism/t over the least little thing.

Good man, don't forget to switch accounts.

Just so we're all clear. UKIP and Nigel Farage are now on the left?

Thomas__.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

You don't have to go that far to see the similarities, just a step up North to NI. I stick to it, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians but I don't have to. That is because the ordinary people of the Palestinians still support their terror organisations and as an Irishman, you surely know yourself that the IRA had never drawn the GFA with the Brits and the Irish govt if it wasn't for SF being their political arm in all that it took to reach that agreement. Hamas is both, a terror organisation and the political arm of it. As long as they have a major say in their own affairs with Israel and continue with terror attacks, there will never be peace cos Israel can't, won't and will not afford to let her own people down and bow to terrorists and they are perfectly right in this. The extension of new settlements in occupied areas of Palestine are another matter, wrong doing on the side of the Israeli govt, more so as the new settlers are mostly radicals themselves.

There are so many layers of propaganda, and revisionist history going on with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that it's incredibly difficult to get a clear idea of whats going on. It doesn't really matter what Palestinians do for their cause, Irish people will mostly turn a blind eye. You can see it whenever a Palestinian attack kills civilians, the excuses/justifications come flying out of the woodwork, and then the bile against Israel is always there.

As I said previously, I don't tend to post about Israel/Palestine anymore. It's a ****ty conflict with plenty of responsibility for whats happening available for both parties (and the other arab nations and the US). But you're never going to get a calm rational discussion on boards about it, even before the trolls started posting in large numbers. It's always been a very sensitive topic.

My advice is to steer clear of these kinds of discussions.

I know, sometimes one can't resist to respond, even reluctantly.

Thomas__.

Harika wrote: »

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is branded a  Nazi and a racist, but Dave Rubin a gay jewish man that is pro choice, pro govt. healthcare, anti death penalty,pro legalisation of Marijuana, reforming the prison system ..... is branded FAR RIGHT .
.

Far right doesn't equal Nazi so that's a red herring here. Anyway look at his guest list Johnny C. Taylor, Scott Adams, Stefan Molyneux, Glenn Beck, Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro, Sargon of Akkad, Katie Hopkins and Lauren Southern and tell me if you find a pattern here? The rest of his videos are full of "the left" "the regressive left" while important to discuss, where are his takes on "The alt right" or "the right"?

Ah, FFS!

Thomas__.

dav3 wrote: »

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The sad thing thing is that the Left doesn't see that everytime they call someone a Nazi for simply disagreeing with them they diminish the evil that Hitler did and they're diminishing real acts of racism just for shouting racism/t over the least little thing.

Good man, don't forget to switch accounts.

Just so we're all clear. UKIP and Nigel Farage are now on the left?

LOL!!!

Linomanytsar

As a Muslim my understanding is that we are to abide by the laws of the country we reside in. This is Islamic doctrine, the problem is that some/most Muslim people who hail from certain regions tend to try and hide behind their archaic and rubbish traditions inherited from their countries of origin and practice it in 'the name of Islam'.

European countries need to be more strict on their integration criteria, things like kids not participating in school, etc. The problem is finding the line between respecting someone's right to practice a religion and understanding when that someone is abusing that right because they want to continue a tradition which in most cases is either not mentioned in Islam or is a traditional practice that in their eyes is 'Islamic'.

In Africa for example, people will be devout Christians but will still converse with their 'ancestors' or visit spiritual healers. Same in South America. So you have this dilution of what is religious doctrine and what is tradition and the distinction fades as time progresses.

I agree its a problem but it's more a geo-traditionalist (if that is a term) issue rather than an Islamic one. That Islam is the predominant religion in these cases is moot.

Odhinn

dav3 wrote: »

Good man, don't forget to switch accounts.

Just so we're all clear. UKIP and Nigel Farage are now on the left?

Maybe he means his left....

Captain Obvious

Kivaro wrote: »

Why don't you have the balls to call her that then?
I don't know the woman but would love to see her legally coming after people who make these claims.

The day when being called a nazi/racist was the magic wand by people like you to end the discussion with an opposing view is long gone.

Racists and white supremacists have it so hard these days don't they? Use to be you could say whatever you want and people would be afraid to call you out. Now it's the opposite and the poor racists can't exercise their free speech for fear of people finding out what they are really like. They are real victims. :rolleyes:

The_Kew_Tour

Some on the 'left' are IRA lads in here so they ain't all Saints and Scholars either.

What ever happened to the good old Middle Man