Is Islam right for Ireland?

ArthurDayne

Gravelly wrote: »

I'm delighted to be able to interest and illustrate your life a little.

BTW, I don't put my personal experience second - I posted what my personal experience with a particular segment of the immigrant population is - I'm well aware of the other cohort, since I travel the world as part of my job, including to majority Islamic countries, ad I've seen first hand what mass immigration has produced in Sweden, Germany, and France.

And what have these experiences travelling in Islamic countries taught you? As for France, Germany and Sweden -- what were your observations?

Thomas__.

Thomas__. wrote: »

I have just highlighted some passages in your post and deliberately omitted to highlight the word Muslim in it. What you describe here are just human matters and I omitted 'Muslim' because you can replace that with any other word or term and get the same behaviour from people of different cultural background.

The thread is about Islam. Hence the obvious focus on Muslim people.

Sorry, but it really bugs me when posters edit my posts. Quote me, fine, but I say what I mean to say.

As for replacing Muslim with anything else, nah. You can compare apples with oranges if you wish, but I believe its worth concentrating on the subject at hand. Discussing Islamic culture and how it can affect the rest of us. The assumption that women are automatic victims within Islamic society is flawed, and should be removed otherwise it weakens our awareness of the real situation.

Gravelly

ArthurDayne wrote: »

And what have these experiences travelling in Islamic countries taught you?

That Islam is a fascist ideology.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

As for France, Germany and Sweden -- what were your observations?

That parts of many European cities are now extremely dangerous for natives of those countries to enter, because muslim immigrants consider them to be their turf. Also, that a huge number of muslim immigrants want to turn the countries they arrive in into the very same places they "fled" from.

An interesting note on Sweden - the native Swedish population is increasingly abandoning many towns and parts of the larger cities and moving either into enclaves within the cities, or further north.

Thomas__.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

I have just highlighted some passages in your post and deliberately omitted to highlight the word Muslim in it. What you describe here are just human matters and I omitted 'Muslim' because you can replace that with any other word or term and get the same behaviour from people of different cultural background.

The thread is about Islam. Hence the obvious focus on Muslim people.

Sorry, but it really bugs me when posters edit my posts. Quote me, fine, but I say what I mean to say.  

As for replacing Muslim with anything else, nah. You can compare apples with oranges if you wish, but I believe its worth concentrating on the subject at hand. Discussing Islamic culture and how it can affect the rest of us. The assumption that women are automatic victims within Islamic society is flawed, and should be removed otherwise it weakens our awareness of the real situation.

I didn't edit your post, I just highlighted parts in it and that is no editing for me. You're dismissive of the things I have pointed out in order to compare them which are not that far from each one another. The real situation is proably not what is discussed on this thread. What is discussed on this thread is the picking out of the extremists and their behaviour in order to project it onto the whole Muslim community and every attempt to point that out is met with the usual counter arguments such like in your post. There is a lack of differenciated thinking and viewing on the matter and that is what is going on for years.

One the one hand you and others always demand that Muslims should integrate but in truth what the demands say is not integration but in fact subjugation in a subtle meaning. You're that hardened in your view on Muslims which you base partially on your own experiences or like in the other posts on stories from Muslim women. You don't even consider that such an approach on the matter as that of yours and others are more good to rebuff Muslims than to gain them as allies against the radical Islamists. When you leave them no room for privacy and individuality and lump them all together the good and the bad what you get is nothing but reluctance and in some ways probably also stubborn resistance towards Integration by force which goes beyond the normal obedience of the law.

Many posters of your standing are complaining about Muslim pupils withdrawing themselves from common School activities, keeping themselves to themselves and it always goes down to the supposed doctrin brought on them by their parents. No-one, really not a single one of your fellow posters have ever come up with the possibility that some abuse might be the reason for their withdrawal and not the allgeded contempt towards the Western society which lies at the core of the Islamists. On the other hand there are the 'good Muslims' who are just doing fine with integrating themselves to the demands of the natives, but still - as you said in compare to another country - they remain the foreigners. I don't think that it is much different in Ireland as anywhere else in Europe.

I personally have no problem with people keeping themselves to themselves, but I frankly admit that I don't like people interfering into private matters of other people when not asked or invited. Rejection of a Person because of his Religion, colour of skin or any other aspect that doesn't meets the Mainstream always leads to either alienation of the person or becoming something of a sycophant when there is no other way out of the situation. The worst thing one can do is to reject someone who is willing to integrate but to confront it with negative examples of others who fail to integrate. In my view, the whole integration debate is dishonest and disingenous because in truth it demands more than just to fit in by obeying the laws and respect the culture of the host country. This is an aspect which I would recommend to consider because the domestic Islamist terrorists might have made such experiences in their life and therefore reject the Western Society as much as that society has rejected them. In other words, one reaps what one saw and this is no excuse for their doings, but part of an explanation which in its whole is more complicated than the usual anti-Muslim brigade posters would ever admit, let alone consider. Being treated like a second class human being in a country in which one is born doesn't produces any good.

Maybe you could do at least with a bit more focus on them being humans as well and not some sort of Aliens who have no feelings of their own and are just out to overthrow the whole Western Society, even more so as you have admitted yourself that our Western culture has its faults. It certainly has but it leaves individuals as much freedom as one can have. I would wish that more Muslims would stand up for their freedom they have here and against those radical Islamists who seek to destroy it, but how to get them on our side when facing threads like this which are full of prejudices and rejections and barely some differenciated debate in sight?

Thomas__.

Gravelly wrote: »

ArthurDayne wrote: »

And what have these experiences travelling in Islamic countries taught you?

That Islam is a fascist ideology.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

As for France, Germany and Sweden -- what were your observations?

That parts of many European cities are now extremely dangerous for natives of those countries to enter, because muslim immigrants consider them to be their turf. Also, that a huge number of muslim immigrants want to turn the countries they arrive in into the very same places they "fled" from.

An interesting note on Sweden - the native Swedish population is increasingly abandoning many towns and parts of the larger cities and moving either into enclaves within the cities, or further north.

So, there is no rapid increas of rents then is there?

ArthurDayne

Gravelly wrote: »

That Islam is a fascist ideology.

Fascist is a word that gets tossed around a lot these days, to the point where it just seems to be a catch-all term for 'bad'. Islam is a terrible religion and like its Abrahamic cousin Christianity is an oppressive and anti-intellectual ideology. I have no great love for either religion. Christianity is being chiselled away while I have every faith that Islamic dogma will someday fade too.

Nonetheless, if fascism is the word we are going for . . . Germany was once a fascist country (in the proper definition of the word) and this did not poison it eternally, nor did it entail that all Germans were fascists rather than people who conformed to an oppressive regime. The laws of country are not always reflective of its people -- no more so than Ireland suddenly stopped being homophobic in 1993, and liberal towards gay marriage in 2015. Ireland's laws which force a woman impregnated through rape to see out the pregnancy are hardly reflective of popular Irish opinion.

I would imagine, on your travels through Islamic countries, you would have spoken to Muslims and come to an understanding that 1.5 billion of them do not all think and feel the same way? Would you accept that?

Gravelly wrote: »

That parts of many European cities are now extremely dangerous for natives of those countries to enter, because muslim immigrants consider them to be their turf. Also, that a huge number of muslim immigrants want to turn the countries they arrive in into the very same places they "fled" from.

An interesting note on Sweden - the native Swedish population is increasingly abandoning many towns and parts of the larger cities and moving either into enclaves within the cities, or further north.

What parts of the cities are these? Name them. I worked in the Parisian banlieues for example and, while they do indeed have deep social problems, the common view of them being no-go areas is morbidly exaggerated. People portray Ballymun, Darndale, Ballybough (areas full of 'native' Irish people) as hellish places and advise tourists to avoid them. Sure, they too have deep social problems and a criminality issue. But their reputations also suffer from a fair dose of sensationalism. If someone was to say something like "these areas are reflective of Dublin's working class" they would be rightly panned.

The_Kew_Tour

Gravelly wrote: »

An interesting note on Sweden - the native Swedish population is increasingly abandoning many towns and parts of the larger cities and moving either into enclaves within the cities, or further north.

Would have thought in my own head this was BS till one my best Friends Brother, who's lived in Sweden, to Swedish Woman, had to leave cause their Kids were in fear of their lives going to school. They had to move and they ain't a poor family as they both great jobs.

masculinist

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html

In 2011, more than 2,000 paediatric circumcisions were performed in acute public hospitals in Ireland. The procedure is available in most public hospitals and, if carried out in such a setting, there’s no cost to parents. If performed privately, parents can pay in around €900. The majority of male paediatric circumcisions carried out here are culturally motivated.

That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html





That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

I agree with you there. I think circumcision is horrible and I can't see why americans love it.

And i don't think the government should subsidize a religious ritual whether it's for a Muslim, jew or anyone.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

I agree with you there.

I almost fell out of my chair :eek:

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

I almost fell out of my chair :eek:

I'm a secularist. i don't think any religion should be state funded. I'm an atheist and think al, religion is a bit silly.
I also believe it's wrong to prejudge a person based on a religion when there's so much variation. I've known loads of muslims here in Ireland and abroad. Not one ever fit into the template of a muslim that's shown here.

But I also believe it's wrong to impose a set of rules or standards on one religion and not impose it on all the others.
And I believe it's possible some of those rules may infringe unnecessarily on a persons rights.

For example. I don't think circumcision is right. I don't think the state should fund it. I'm not sure if it should be banned because that is a complex idea. There are days I've leaned that way but I've never been fully in favor of banning it because as i mentioned the ban may infringe on their rights. But i do believe that if we were to ban it, it would be wrong to ban it for muslims but not for jews/others.

silverharp

Grayson wrote: »

I've known loads of muslims here in Ireland and abroad. Not one ever fit into the template of a muslim that's shown here.

ive never met a muslim man that I didn't get on with from diverse places like Pakistan, Malaysia etc. however in my rarefied world they tend to be college educated or even if not its because they are social. However It would still be objectively a bad thing for Ireland if muslim numbers increased so much that they started ghettoising and able to exist in their own subculture. At the moment their might still be the opportunity that the next generation "leave that old wolrd cr@p behind" at some stage not.

ArthurDayne

masculinist wrote: »

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html





That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

Again though. There seems to be a social myopia on matters like this -- where the first port of call is to say "those Muslims demanding this demanding that".

You have referred to circumcision as genital mutilation. I would agree with that (except for where there is a genuine medical reason for performing it). But circumcision was not introduced to Ireland by Muslims -- nor have we enlightened Irish seen fit to make it illegal to perform circumcision without medical grounds. The Muslim community in Ireland has not been here for a long time in the grand scheme of things, and at no point before a Muslim community developed did Ireland make any significant move to end male circumcision.

So yes, as a (misguided) tradition of Islam, Muslim people will seek to have circumcisions performed -- just as the Jewish community in Ireland will also seek it, and I'm sure certain Christian and perhaps even non-religious people also do from time to time.

So yes -- I oppose circumcision -- but making it out to be some problem driven by Muslim demand just does not hold water.

BabyCheeses

masculinist wrote: »

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html





That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

There are no demands. The practice should be banned but it was here already. Of course you won't speak against that group.

bigpink

How are they all getting into the country?

Grayson

silverharp wrote: »

ive never met a muslim man that I didn't get on with from diverse places like Pakistan, Malaysia etc. however in my rarefied world they tend to be college educated or even if not its because they are social. However It would still be objectively a bad thing for Ireland if muslim numbers increased so much that they started ghettoising and able to exist in their own subculture. At the moment their might still be the opportunity that the next generation "leave that old wolrd cr@p behind" at some stage not.

I don't think many people are saying that. In another thread I once said that I thought, ignoring the economics of it (because let's face it, even without the housing crises that would be a lot of cash), I felt that we could take 10k refugees if they were dispersed throughout population centres in ireland and we made proper efforts at integration. I was told that kind of number would destroy Ireland. It wouldn't, percentage wise it's a tiny amount.
No-one is saying 100k. But there are people who want to advocate zero muslims. They don't want any mosques. The simple fact that someone is muslim is enough to say no.

Editing to add: There's a lot of reasons why young men, who are second or third generation, are radicalized in Europe. However it's not fair to say it's because they are muslim. Part of it was recent political developments. ISIS are relatively new and until recently there was no islamic terrorisjm. there was arab terrorism but it wasn't really religious in nature, it was political. Previous arab terrorists had more in common with the IRA than with ISIS.
There are social political issues and a feeling of separation from mainstream society for a lot. Part of that is because when arabs arrived in europe they were dumped in ghetto's. For example, there's a massive muslim neighborhood in Marseilles where there's only one bus connecting them to the outside world. Taking actions to foster integration can prevent this kind of thing. Most of the guys who are radicalized are poor and have very low education.
The fact is though that the majority of muslim youth don't get radicalized so we have to ask why some do. Simply saying Muslim isn't enough since there are far more muslim men that aren't radicalized. These aren't things with simple answers and anyone who provides one is trying to delude you.

Snake Plisken

BabyCheeses wrote: »

There are no demands. The practice should be banned but it was here already. Of course you won't speak against that group.

What group would that be now?

Odhinn

bigpink wrote: »

How are they all getting into the country?

They dug a tunnel.

silverharp

Grayson wrote: »

I don't think many people are saying that. In another thread I once said that I thought, ignoring the economics of it (because let's face it, even without the housing crises that would be a lot of cash), I felt that we could take 10k refugees if they were dispersed throughout population centres in ireland and we made proper efforts at integration. I was told that kind of number would destroy Ireland. It wouldn't, percentage wise it's a tiny amount.
No-one is saying 100k. But there are people who want to advocate zero muslims. They don't want any mosques. The simple fact that someone is muslim is enough to say no.

Editing to add: There's a lot of reasons why young men, who are second or third generation, are radicalized in Europe. However it's not fair to say it's because they are muslim. Part of it was recent political developments. ISIS are relatively new and until recently there was no islamic terrorisjm. there was arab terrorism but it wasn't really religious in nature, it was political. Previous arab terrorists had more in common with the IRA than with ISIS.
There are social political issues and a feeling of separation from mainstream society for a lot. Part of that is because when arabs arrived in europe they were dumped in ghetto's. For example, there's a massive muslim neighborhood in Marseilles where there's only one bus connecting them to the outside world. Taking actions to foster integration can prevent this kind of thing. Most of the guys who are radicalized are poor and have very low education.
The fact is though that the majority of muslim youth don't get radicalized so we have to ask why some do. Simply saying Muslim isn't enough since there are far more muslim men that aren't radicalized. These aren't things with simple answers and anyone who provides one is trying to delude you.

I wouldn't be in the zero camp but I wouldn't shed a tear if new migration from mainly muslim countries had to be from people with a graduate education. People should only come here if they or their kids have a reasonable chance of being part of middle ireland , not falling into sink estates

Call me lazy but I don't see the point of letting people in who have to be micro managed, micro managing costs money. Let 100K Chinese people come here and there would be next no down side , you cant say the same with our Islamic friends.

baylah17

masculinist wrote: »

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html

In 2011, more than 2,000 paediatric circumcisions were performed in acute public hospitals in Ireland. The procedure is available in most public hospitals and, if carried out in such a setting, there’s no cost to parents. If performed privately, parents can pay in around €900. The majority of male paediatric circumcisions carried out here are culturally motivated.

That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

masculinist wrote: »

Why is the Irish taxpayer paying for unnecessary surgery to genitally mutilate innocent children ?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/parenting/to-cut-or-not-to-cut-239186.html

In 2011, more than 2,000 paediatric circumcisions were performed in acute public hospitals in Ireland. The procedure is available in most public hospitals and, if carried out in such a setting, there’s no cost to parents. If performed privately, parents can pay in around €900. The majority of male paediatric circumcisions carried out here are culturally motivated.

That was almost 8 years ago . Imagine the current and future costs . Islam always has its hands out with demands of our society and our taxes. Thats money which should be going to the genuinely sick

How dare they demand the Irish taxpayer to pay 900 euro a pop for this ? And why is unnecessary genital mutilation even legal never mind paid for by my taxes

Because circumcision is carried out for a range of medical reasons for a start.
Oh and Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised for religious reasons or does your vile hatred also extend to the Jews?

baylah17

Odhinn wrote: »

bigpink wrote: »

How are they all getting into the country?

They dug a tunnel.

And dug a second tunnel and hid the soil in that lol

Grayson

silverharp wrote: »

I wouldn't be in the zero camp but I wouldn't shed a tear if new migration from mainly muslim countries had to be from people with a graduate education. People should only come here if they or their kids have a reasonable chance of being part of middle ireland , not falling into sink estates

Call me lazy but I don't see the point of letting people in who have to be micro managed, micro managing costs money. Let 100K Chinese people come here and there would be next no down side , you cant say the same with our Islamic friends.

That's pretty much the way it is already with people from arab countries, japanese, americans everyone who isn't EU. I'm kinda ok with it. I do think there should be a process to apply before you get her. As it is you need a job to sponsor you before you come and that's an annoying process. It should be possible to come here without a job and search for one. And no, they shouldn't be eligible for social welfare and yes they should prove they can support themselves during the search. And of course that shouldn't be unlimited either.

Refugees are a different matter. That's a humanitarian issue and their religion shouldn't come into it. By all means interview them at camps and have a screening process for security but we can't have a religious block either.

garbo speaks

baylah17 wrote: »

Because circumcision is carried out for a range of medical reasons for a start.
Oh and Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised for religious reasons or does your vile hatred also extend to the Jews?

There's far more pressing concerns in the HSE than circumcision waiting times :rolleyes:.

thebull85

Thomas__. wrote: »

I can't recall any islamic terrorism attack in Europe in 1998. You're going ab bit too far back in time.

The 1995 paris metro bombing, carried out by an Algerian islamic terrorist group.

Grayson

thebull85 wrote: »

The 1995 paris metro bombing, carried out by an Algerian islamic terrorist group.

That wasn't islamic was it. That was politically motivated even though it was carried out by muslims.

(btw, I'm googling the details so if I'm wrong I'll be back in a while )

Edited: they were islamists and they were nasty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Islamic_Group_of_Algeria

Between 1992 and 1998, the GIA conducted a violent campaign of civilian massacres, sometimes wiping out entire villages in its area of operation, (notably the Bentalha and Rais). It attacked and killed other Islamists that left the GIA or attempted to negotiate with the government. It also targeted foreign civilians living in Algeria, killing more than 100 expatriate men and women in the country. The group established a presence outside Algeria, in France, Belgium, Britain, Italy and the United States, and launched terror attacks in France in late 1994.

The "undisputed principal Islamist force" in Algeria in 1994,[2] by 1996, militants were deserting "in droves", alienated by its execution of civilians and Islamists leaders.[3] In 1999, a government amnesty law motivated large numbers of jihadis to "repent". The remnants of the GIA proper were hunted down over the next two years, leaving a splinter group the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC),[4] which announced its support for Al-Qaeda in October 2003.[5][6]

10000maniacs

Deleted User wrote: »

In my experience, in small groups or individually most muslms are lovely men. Gentle, respectful, etc. I wouldn't have any issues with them at all except that all they need is one devout muslim and the whole group dynamic changes. It's a lot like some guys we all encounter, on their own they're great but put them in a group and they turn into an asshole. Muslims are a lot like that.

Yeah agreed. This this type of stuff has to be stamped out here at source.
These guys were protesting to avenge an American movie maker who depicted Mohammed. IN BALLSBRIDGE. :eek:

Grayson

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yeah agreed. This this type of stuff has to be stamped out here at source.
These guys were protesting to avenge an American movie maker who depicted Mohammed. IN BALLSBRIDGE. :eek:

We've had protests against christian movies. And remember the grannies protesting against Stringfellows strip club?

thebull85

Grayson wrote: »

We've had protests against christian movies. And remember the grannies protesting against Stringfellows strip club?

yeah we love a good bandwagon protest in this country, rarely do we call for murder over a cartoon depiction.

Will I Am Not

The Passion of St Tibulus?

Grayson

thebull85 wrote: »

yeah we love a good bandwagon protest in this country, rarely do we call for murder over a cartoon depiction.

Did the guys in Dublin call for someones death?

Grayson

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The Passion of St Tibulus?

thebull85

Grayson wrote: »

Did the guys in Dublin call for someones death?

They spoke about avenging Mohammed. Ill let you draw your own conclusion from that.

Grayson

thebull85 wrote: »

They spoke about avenging Mohammed. Ill let you draw your own conclusion from that.

Did they actually say that?

masculinist

baylah17 wrote: »

Because circumcision is carried out for a range of medical reasons for a start.
Oh and Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised for religious reasons or does your vile hatred also extend to the Jews?

I asked why it is being funded for religious reasons. Thats the whole tone of the article - that somehow the Irish public is supposed to feel guilty because the taxpayer paying 900 euro a foreskin for the genital mutilation of innocent babies for no medical reason whatsoever should pay even more for a shorter waiting list for religious fanatics.
But of course consumed by hatred and slander you dont wish to address the issue of the public purse paying for religious genital mutilation. And despite this being a thread about Muslims you made a Freudian slip when you exposed your anti semetism.

Greentopia

It's actually a question I've been asking myself recently. I live in Stuttgart which is very multicultural (about 40% non-native German population), and the integration of people from Islamic backgrounds has been pretty much the success story of Germany.

No Muslim ghettos, very low unemployment rates, mixed communities, very little radicalisation from what I hear and everyone seems to get along very well and I rarely hear of any racial tensions.

If this was the case in Ireland I would have no problem with us taking our fair share of refugees from war torn Islamic countries like Syria, but Ireland doesn't have the resources of Germany and I would be surprised if it had anyone progressive and far sighted enough in power to ensure integration has gone as smoothly as in Stuttgart at least.

I think it's good to have open and free discussion on the topic in Ireland, regardless of how heated it can get. People must be allowed to express their opinions openly in a democracy while not just giving an unopposed platform to neo-nazis and other far right extremist to spew hatred and fear mongering. We may not agree with what they think but we must not suppress dissenting opinion.
That's something that has been missing here in Germany and something that has definitely contributed to the rise in support of the far right anti-immigrant parties.

How I see it here is that there is a distinct sense among many that mass immigration has been foisted on Germans without any public consultation or discussion. There is a lot of unspoken (publicly at least) anger and resentment against Merkel welcoming in so many since 2016. And I don't mean just from those on the right.

Germans will not talk publicly about any misgivings or fears about such mass immigration public for fear of being labelled racist or Islamophobic, but I have heard them talk about it in private with each other. My German other half is typical-he's on the left and treats all comers equally if they work hard and contribute to society.

His friends would be similar and yet I've heard them speak of feeling "like strangers in their own country" and the worries that Germany cannot cope with millions of new people to house, educate and provide services for when there are roads that are in need of repair, when public pensions are too low forcing some OAP's to root through trash bins for empty plastic bottles they can return for a few cents, degrading of public services and increasing poverty levels and an increase in the 'mini jobs' that are low paid and offer no job security... etc. I've heard my own German friends say the same thing.

This is what I fear happening back home if immigration is uncontrolled, especially with social problems like homelessness, poverty, inequality levels being far worse in Ireland. That if Irish people do not have a real say in how many are allowed come to Ireland and fears are not allayed that we too will have a party that will rise to power like the AfD or NDP in the coming decades. When the only parties that will listen to the fears and concerns of ordinary people are the likes of these far right parties then you know something has gone very wrong.

The only way forward is open dialogue without being made to feel like racists because you express some concerns about the effects of mass immigration-and I say that as a left wing libertarian myself.

I don't have any time for Islam or indeed any religion actually-they're all about control, fear, shame, power and money, but Islam has particular issues that must be discussed and confronted when it's the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Are we throwing off the shackles of one religion just to import another that's even more repressive, misogynistic, homophobic...?

I have friends who are secular non-practicing Muslim here and have never had any problems as a woman with Muslims I should state. So why is it that when I go to my local shopping centre and the only other white faces I may see in the whole place are some of the employees (and that's not an exaggeration, I actually noticed that on a few occasions), it makes me concerned if I will feel like my German friends in years to come that I too will feel like stranger in my own country when I return to my city in Ireland?

A feeling of not having shared values and customs with the 'new Germans'/Irish' must be part of why I feel like this. A feeling that perhaps there is not the same commitment among all Muslims to Western secular values, democratic rights and cultural norms and this causes a feeling of "them" and "us" which instills a certain amount of fear in me.
A feeling that if the economy tanked many would simply up and leave and take their tax funded education with them to pastures greener. But then that's what many native Irish have done too in every recession and collapse we've experienced...

I don't have any answers as to how to deal with these feelings apart from getting to know some Muslims myself and talk to them instead of relying on an often biased media to inform me. That has been the single best way I've found to try to unpack my prejudices and fears and confront them. It's worked to a certain degree in that I now understand and know that most Muslims only want to live a normal peaceful life and raise their kids as best they can the same as the rest of us. And yet it doesn't dispel the slight discomfort and apprehension I feel when I'm surrounded by people wearing headscarves and speaking Turkish and Arabic.

Sorry rambling on...! time for dinner.

Snickers Man

Grayson wrote: »

We've had protests against christian movies. And remember the grannies protesting against Stringfellows strip club?

And for those of us of a certain age, we can remember when Monty Python's Life of Brian was refused a cinema release here because it would outrage public decency.

That was about 1980.

Fortunately there was this new fangled technology emerging at the time called VHS which was not covered by "decency" legislation and so there was no impediment to people bringing in tapes of the film.

It was also perfectly legal for "private clubs" to show the film to their members. So, quite a few pubs made a killing by setting up clubs, for which membership lasted a night, and the subscription fee was basically your ticket in to watch the show in a pub with all the fellow members of your "private club", none of whom, apart from your partner, you had ever met before.

The first few times I saw LoB it was in a crowded JCR in Trinity on a large-ish TV (by the standards of the time) and a tape with really bad tracking and poor sound quality. But we didn't want to let the bastards beat us.
After all, what has the censor ever done for us, eh?

And of course there was another moral panic about "Video Nasties" at the time. Children could watch people "HAVING SEX" in the seclusion of their own home if their parents were so careless as to leave their "Video Nasties" lying around!!!
Down with this sort of thing!!!

What those old biddies would have made of pornhub doesn't bear thinking about.

wes

masculinist wrote: »

But of course consumed by hatred and slander

Bit rich coming from someone accusing others of being "crypto islamofacists, in another thread on AH, for disagreeing with you on this thread.

Everyone one your posts is filled with hatred and bile. Your don't got a leg to stand on accusing anyone of such on here.

Seriously, you need to a get a hobby.

Wibbs

baylah17 wrote: »

Because circumcision is carried out for a range of medical reasons for a start.

which is rarely the case with newborns. In that case it's entirely religious/cultural in nature. BTW labiaplasty is carried out for medical and cosmetic reasons, but we'd rightfully have a fit if it was done to newborn baby girls for religious/cultural reasons.

Oh and Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised for religious reasons or does your vile hatred also extend to the Jews?

Easy there on the "vile hatred" stuff Ted. And yes I would have the exact same issue with Jews doing it, or any group doing it for cultural reasons(lopping bits off mickeys was quite popular in Ireland in the past among the middle/upper classes). We left the Bronze Age blood sacrificing to sky fairies a long time ago. Or should have.

JupiterKid

Greentopia wrote: »

It's actually a question I've been asking myself recently. I live in Stuttgart which is very multicultural (about 40% non-native German population), and the integration of people from Islamic backgrounds has been pretty much the success story of Germany.

No Muslim ghettos, very low unemployment rates, mixed communities, very little radicalisation from what I hear and everyone seems to get along very well and I rarely hear of any racial tensions.

If this was the case in Ireland I would have no problem with us taking our fair share of refugees from war torn Islamic countries like Syria, but Ireland doesn't have the resources of Germany and I would be surprised if it had anyone progressive and far sighted enough in power to ensure integration has gone as smoothly as in Stuttgart at least.

I think it's good to have open and free discussion on the topic in Ireland, regardless of how heated it can get. People must be allowed to express their opinions openly in a democracy while not just giving an unopposed platform to neo-nazis and other far right extremist to spew hatred and fear mongering. We may not agree with what they think but we must not suppress dissenting opinion.
That's something that has been missing here in Germany and something that has definitely contributed to the rise in support of the far right anti-immigrant parties.

How I see it here is that there is a distinct sense among many that mass immigration has been foisted on Germans without any public consultation or discussion. There is a lot of unspoken (publicly at least) anger and resentment against Merkel welcoming in so many since 2016. And I don't mean just from those on the right.

Germans will not talk publicly about any misgivings or fears about such mass immigration public for fear of being labelled racist or Islamophobic, but I have heard them talk about it in private with each other. My German other half is typical-he's on the left and treats all comers equally if they work hard and contribute to society.

His friends would be similar and yet I've heard them speak of feeling "like strangers in their own country" and the worries that Germany cannot cope with millions of new people to house, educate and provide services for when there are roads that are in need of repair, when public pensions are too low forcing some OAP's to root through trash bins for empty plastic bottles they can return for a few cents, degrading of public services and increasing poverty levels and an increase in the 'mini jobs' that are low paid and offer no job security... etc. I've heard my own German friends say the same thing.

This is what I fear happening back home if immigration is uncontrolled, especially with social problems like homelessness, poverty, inequality levels being far worse in Ireland. That if Irish people do not have a real say in how many are allowed come to Ireland and fears are not allayed that we too will have a party that will rise to power like the AfD or NDP in the coming decades. When the only parties that will listen to the fears and concerns of ordinary people are the likes of these far right parties then you know something has gone very wrong.

The only way forward is open dialogue without being made to feel like racists because you express some concerns about the effects of mass immigration-and I say that as a left wing libertarian myself.

I don't have any time for Islam or indeed any religion actually-they're all about control, fear, shame, power and money, but Islam has particular issues that must be discussed and confronted when it's the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Are we throwing off the shackles of one religion just to import another that's even more repressive, misogynistic, homophobic...?

I have friends who are secular non-practicing Muslim here and have never had any problems as a woman with Muslims I should state. So why is it that when I go to my local shopping centre and the only other white faces I may see in the whole place are some of the employees (and that's not an exaggeration, I actually noticed that on a few occasions), it makes me concerned if I will feel like my German friends in years to come that I too will feel like stranger in my own country when I return to my city in Ireland?

A feeling of not having shared values and customs with the 'new Germans'/Irish' must be part of why I feel like this. A feeling that perhaps there is not the same commitment among all Muslims to Western secular values, democratic rights and cultural norms and this causes a feeling of "them" and "us" which instills a certain amount of fear in me.
A feeling that if the economy tanked many would simply up and leave and take their tax funded education with them to pastures greener. But then that's what many native Irish have done too in every recession and collapse we've experienced...

I don't have any answers as to how to deal with these feelings apart from getting to know some Muslims myself and talk to them instead of relying on an often biased media to inform me. That has been the single best way I've found to try to unpack my prejudices and fears and confront them. It's worked to a certain degree in that I now understand and know that most Muslims only want to live a normal peaceful life and raise their kids as best they can the same as the rest of us. And yet it doesn't dispel the slight discomfort and apprehension I feel when I'm surrounded by people wearing headscarves and speaking Turkish and Arabic.

Sorry rambling on...! time for dinner.

Excellent post that I'm in full agreement with.

You obviously know what you are talking about unlike about 80% of the posters on this thread who just spout their intolerant xenophobic OR virtue signalling "let them all come in" rubbish round and round in circles. Anyone can have an opinion but it is an informed opinion thar matters most.

We need a calm, rational debate about this issue.

Thomas__.

Cancelled.

Thomas__.

Thomas__. wrote: »

Cancelled.

I know the feeling. The discussion is becoming too circular now. Time to step back and just watch for a while.

Hector Savage

Grayson wrote: »

We've had protests against christian movies. And remember the grannies protesting against Stringfellows strip club?

Are you ****ing serious ?
You are actually equating the two ??

You don't think a protest like that with the raw aggression and screaming ALLAH ACKBAR (yeah that doesn't have any negative consequences today) is not worrying ?

You must have your head stuck firmly in the sand ...

JupiterKid

When the first sex shop in Ireland opened back in 1991 The Legion of Mary protested outside it for nearly a year.

Thankfully they failed.

Hector Savage

JupiterKid wrote: »

When the first sex shop in Ireland opened back in 1991 The Legion of Mary protested outside it for nearly a year.

Thankfully they failed.

Were they screaming that they wanted to murder the shop owners ???

malinheader

There's a legion of Mary in my area.does anyone know if there are any of them on a garda watch list. Ffs.

murphthesmurf

baylah17 wrote: »

Because circumcision is carried out for a range of medical reasons for a start.
Oh and Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised for religious reasons or does your vile hatred also extend to the Jews?

Muslims carry out circumcisions for medical reasons? I doubt that.
Yes, Muslim boys are not the only ones who get circumcised, Muslim girls do too. It is barbaric butchery.
The Jews aren't much better when it comes to circumcision either, I've seen pictures of Jewish circumcision and its a pretty twisted medieval practice. But two wrongs don't make a right. It is a medieval religious practice.

murphthesmurf

Grayson wrote: »

For example, there's a massive muslim neighborhood in Marseilles where there's only one bus connecting them to the outside world. Taking actions to foster integration can prevent this kind of thing. Most of the guys who are radicalized are poor and have very low education.

Do the natives of Marseilles also turn to terrorism? Do any of the other religious minorities of Marseilles turn to terrorism? If not then I don't think the bus is the reason.

murphthesmurf

Grayson wrote: »

We've had protests against christian movies. And remember the grannies protesting against Stringfellows strip club?

We moved on, the Catholic and Christian faith is fading out. Islam is actually growing. The answer to any criticism is 'well we used to do something slightly similar once too'. Two wrongs don't make a right. The bible may say this and that and whatever, the difference is we don't take it seriously. We know better. A group of old ladies protesting a strip club in their locality is not the same as this group of men marching the streets chanting Allah Ahkbaar because someone a few thousand miles away made a video that featured Allah.

Hector Savage

murphthesmurf wrote: »

We moved on, the Catholic and Christian faith is fading out. Islam is actually growing. The answer to any criticism is 'well we used to do something slightly similar once too'. Two wrongs don't make a right. The bible may say this and that and whatever, the difference is we don't take it seriously. We know better. A group of old ladies protesting a strip club in their locality is not the same as this group of men marching the streets chanting Allah Ahkbaar because someone a few thousand miles away made a video that featured Allah.

Spot on, but these cognitive dissonant people will just defend defend defend - I wonder what stage they actually think ... wait .. this is too much.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

I've known loads of muslims here in Ireland and abroad. Not one ever fit into the template of a muslim that's shown here.

I have a handful of lovely Muslim friends who live abroad. I had to write a letter of invitation so they could visit me because of shengen... however some of their associates in their community abroad who would know them enough to have a conversation DO fit into the template. I never said all of them too. However if we adopt the free for all anarchy which sjws demand ( or else youre a wacist ) then assimilation will be completely and utterly impossible. And currently as sjws demand , there is no discrimination between good and bad immigrants. NOTHING. Using some common sense is now racist according to their mindset.

Show me the first completely integrated secular Muslim family who marry into Irish families both in the male and female lines and then we can analyse them and see what we did right. Celebrate with me when that type of family becomes the majority of their community. Then we can turn the tap and the flow up a wee bit without ever losing a healthy respect for the society and country we should be protecting. Instead you want to import a very distinct group of people in extremely large numbers and award them special treatment and allow Saudi Wahabbi funding to set up parallel societies, parallel schools , parallel shops and parallel community centres so they never assimilate ever . And never have to come into contact with us . The mosques even have their own Islamic hair dressers on site. I personally use a Turkish Barber but the customers tend to be overwhelmingly Irish. When the only point of contact is so they can make money from us but they spend their money elsewhere then thats a big problem.
Special treatment and indiscriminate social policy is a recipe for the agenda to end up with the chaos thats currently happening all over Europe.