Is Islam right for Ireland?

Summer In the City

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, we have the Sharia councils in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/the-guardian-view-on-sharia-councils-shedding-some-light

Then, we could consider something like this:

https://www.cspii.org/en/blog/sharia-law-in-europe

"The Law Society published guidelines for drawing up documents according to Islamic rules, which would exclude non-Muslims and encroach on women’s rights. Using these guidelines, High Street Solicitors will be able to write Islamic wills which will have the power to exclude non-Muslims completely and deny women an equal share of an inheritance [24]"

"The principle of Sharia law has also been used in Germany. Even though Sharia law is not included directly in the German legal code, it is officially used in court to decide ‘Muslim’ cases. Elements of Sharia were used in cases involving family and inheritance disputes [26–27]. The interior minister of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate supported the use of Sharia law in 2012 [28]. The court in Hamm announced in April 2013 that Sharia law will be applied in German courts for those who marry under Sharia law in a Muslim country and decide to seek divorce in Germany [29]."

Am I suggesting Sharia law is widespread in Europe? Nope. I'm not. I still prefer that we examine these things rather than ignore it.

Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

I don't agree with the Sharia Councils if they are encroaching on the law of the land either.

topper75

Witchie wrote: »

The more anti-muslim rhethoric, the more you encourage fundamentalism.

Hilarious BS this one.

A first cousin of the time-honoured Christian BS:

"Jesus can save you"

Oh yeah from what?

"From what he will do to you if you don't let him save you".

Less of both in Ireland please.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Summer In the City wrote: »

Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

THATS your response!!!!!!!

Summer In the City

DanDan6592 wrote: »

THATS your response!!!!!!!

Yeah, what's the problem? The piece is suggesting they used tradition as part of an argument in a German court to sort out an inheritance dispute. That happens here as well.

The court didn't adopt Sharia Law to settle the case like.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Summer In the City wrote: »

Yeah, what's the problem? The piece is suggesting they used tradition in a German court to sort out an inheritance dispute. That happens here as well.

So you think it's ok to exclude people from wills based on their gender?

Captain Obvious

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Did you read post 56?

My fear is the attitude these people have towards certain minorities and women. I am aware not all Muslims have these negative attitudes, but does it not worry you that, for example, 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal compared to "just" 5% of non-British Muslims?

And no they're not asking...yet.

And it's an attitude that shouldn't be accepted. That's why we have legal protections against discrimination.

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Do you believe laws to be static? Or do you understand that if enough people agitate for change then change will come? Gay marriage and the future 8th repeal are examples, liberals always assume that the hardened attitudes of immigrants will soften as they adapt to our ways when the evidence points towards them keeping their beliefs and looking for society to bend to their wants.its a sort of bigotry within the liberal mind set, they assume the immigrants will want to be a part of our culture and forget their own, the same way they have the bigotry of low expectations for certain minority groups.

Gay marriage, divorce and abortion are all examples of this country successfully defying religious interference and tradition. Why do you think we'll suddenly stop doing that because of some Muslims moving to the country?

Summer In the City

DanDan6592 wrote: »

So you think it's ok to exclude people from wills based on their gender?

In Ireland you can exclude anyone from your will based on any reason you like, no?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And it's an attitude that shouldn't be accepted. That's why we have legal protections against discrimination.



Gay marriage, divorce and abortion are all examples of this country successfully defying religious interference and tradition. Why do you think we'll suddenly stop doing that because of some Muslims moving to the country?

It shouldn't be but in these communities it is. Thats the point...

defrule

If Muslim population were to become large, you would expect that political representation will come with it, which would be very reasonable.

But what if they push for Islam in the education system?

What if they push to make same sex marriage illegal?

Granted this would all be democracy at work.

sbsquarepants

Before I decide if Islam is the right choice for me - can anyone clarify it's stance on 3 of my favourite activities please

1: Debauchery
2: Drunkenness
3: Drunken Debauchery

Also just to be safe - does anyone know if it says anything about sausage sambos?

Wanderer78

defrule wrote:

Granted this would all be democracy at work.

Would this democracy be better than our current democracy?

Odhinn

Summer In the City wrote: »

Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

I don't agree with the Sharia Councils if they are encroaching on the law of the land either.

They exist because Jews were given similar councils over 100 years ago. I'm suprised there are no hindu equivalents. All in all it was a bad idea.

Captain Obvious

DanDan6592 wrote: »

It shouldn't be but in these communities it is. Thats the point...

If that's how someone wants to live their lives then let them at it. If someone wants to leave that life they are legally protected in doing so.

corks finest

No,and Vic versa

p1akuw47h5r3it

Summer In the City wrote: »

In Ireland you can exclude anyone from your will based on any reason you like, no?

If a Muslim man against the wishes of his family marries a Muslim woman, and then dies, the mans family could go to a Sharia law court to deny her her right to his inheritance or to lessen the share she would receive in normal circumstances.

Likewise with families and inheritence. The men automatically receive double what the female receives.

corks finest

TheManTheMyth wrote: »

There have been countless stories of Muslim immigrants degrading women and gay people all across Europe and generally not integrating into the countries that they have moved to, personally i was very pro migrant about a year (maybe a year and a half) ago but have completely 180'd on the topic and now have a serious feeling of discomfort when i think about Islam spreading to Ireland. Am i the only person who feels like we have enough problems without adding this new religion into the mix? the idea that governments want to change the views of their own people rather than address the source of the issue (in my eyes Islam and the less liberal nations from which these groups originate)scares me because it sends us back to the times of keeping everything silent, it will only lead to another catholic church situation where eventually their atrocities all come to light at once.

Agree 100 percent,they don't integrate,mix,socialise with Irish ppl,and want to demean and weaken our Christian heritage

jmayo

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Do you believe laws to be static? Or do you understand that if enough people agitate for change then change will come? Gay marriage and the future 8th repeal are examples, liberals always assume that the hardened attitudes of immigrants will soften as they adapt to our ways when the evidence points towards them keeping their beliefs and looking for society to bend to their wants.its a sort of bigotry within the liberal mind set, they assume the immigrants will want to be a part of our culture and forget their own, the same way they have the bigotry of low expectations for certain minority groups.

It is a superiority complex and an arrogance that they can change them.

Watching feminists and gays welcoming so called refugees in Europe reminded me of the scene in Independence Day of the eejits on the roof of the skyscraper welcoming the aliens.
They will be the first casualties.

And then as in cases in Europe when those with the liberal mindset are are attacked they worry about the perpetrators because otherwise they will see it as an admission of their own failure.
They don't want to be seen as racist.

One rape victim did not want their rapist deported because they might be subject to torture when they go back to their home country.
Yes lets keep a rapist so that some more people can be their victims.

Hell one victim in Ireland did not even want the rapist's name revealed because it would ruin his life.

FFS.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Captain Obvious wrote: »

If that's how someone wants to live their lives then let them at it. If someone wants to leave that life they are legally protected in doing so.

Why should we allow people into our country who has those beliefs though, considering the long struggle undertaken in this country to make those beliefs a minority ?

Captain Obvious

DanDan6592 wrote: »

If a Muslim man against the wishes of his family marries a Muslim woman, and then dies, the mans family could go to a Sharia law court to deny her her right to his inheritance or to lessen the share she would receive in normal circumstances.

Likewise with families and inheritence. The men automatically receive double what the female receives.

But, in Ireland and the UK, the other party would have to voluntarily submit to being judged based on the rules of Sharia law.

Grayson

Hector Savage wrote: »

http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

Should read up on this ...

You should fact check it. You'll need a few hours.I started reading some of the articles that were linked.

One of them stated that people believed that suicide bombings by palestinians fighting against israelis were a justified tactic. He rephrased it as it's valid for muslims to suicide bomb jews.

The guy takes surveys, misrepresents the findings and fails to put them in context.
He's effectively lying to try and justify his own beliefs to others.

Anyone who used his site, or him, as a source of knowledge, is going to be deliberately misled.

thebull85

Summer In the City wrote: »

OK. Should we think about deporting people? Maybe people without a degree. Useless arts degrees maybe? Anyone that might have a protestant in their family tree?

Ireland is full and the brains here that got us here will sort it out. Right so.

Influx of muslim migrants brings terrorism and sex attacks as we have seen in Germany. And the bigger the numbers of them in a country the more likely these things are to happen..

Now we dont have a islamic terrorism problem here yet but as the numbers grow im sure we will.

Basically what you are saying is we just have to accept this fact because its not all muslims..

If limiting muslims coming into this country means we avoid terrorism and mass sex attacks id be all for it..

Would you not?

Captain Obvious

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Why should we allow people into our country who has those beliefs though, considering the long struggle undertaken in this country to make those beliefs a minority ?

Because these kind of beliefs are changeable and personal. You can't just assume someone coming from a majority Muslim country believes homosexuality is wrong.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, we have the Sharia councils in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/the-guardian-view-on-sharia-councils-shedding-some-light

Then, we could consider something like this:

https://www.cspii.org/en/blog/sharia-law-in-europe

"The Law Society published guidelines for drawing up documents according to Islamic rules, which would exclude non-Muslims and encroach on women’s rights. Using these guidelines, High Street Solicitors will be able to write Islamic wills which will have the power to exclude non-Muslims completely and deny women an equal share of an inheritance [24]"

"The principle of Sharia law has also been used in Germany. Even though Sharia law is not included directly in the German legal code, it is officially used in court to decide ‘Muslim’ cases. Elements of Sharia were used in cases involving family and inheritance disputes [26–27]. The interior minister of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate supported the use of Sharia law in 2012 [28]. The court in Hamm announced in April 2013 that Sharia law will be applied in German courts for those who marry under Sharia law in a Muslim country and decide to seek divorce in Germany [29]."

Am I suggesting Sharia law is widespread in Europe? Nope. I'm not. I still prefer that we examine these things rather than ignore it.

The places that use Sharia law in the west tend to mix it with civil law.

The idea is that for certain civil matters you can someone who's religiously and legally trained to perform a function.

A simple example is getting married. A priest can perform both the religious and legal ceremony. The same would go for an iman. In Canada if I remember correctly an iman can also perform a divorce. However the divorce must satisfy both canadian and muslim laws.

like you I'm wary of allowing religions too much power in a legal system. However I'm also not scared of the phrase sharia law. Catholics here follow canon law and I've never seen people scared about that.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But, in Ireland and the UK, the other party would have to voluntarily submit to being judged based on the rules of Sharia law.

Fair enough. The poster edited their post to include "I don't agree with the Sharia Councils if they are encroaching on the law of the land either". I probs wouldn't have responded had that been in the original post.

Odhinn

corks finest wrote: »

Agree 100 percent,they don't integrate,mix,socialise with Irish ppl,and want to demean and weaken our Christian heritage

Jesus yeah. There's no way I'd trust an imam to put dead babies in a cess pit, whinge about sex while molesting childer, and make money selling the younger ones to americans.

Grayson

jmayo wrote: »

It is a superiority complex and an arrogance that they can change them.

Watching feminists and gays welcoming so called refugees in Europe reminded me of the scene in Independence Day of the eejits on the roof of the skyscraper welcoming the aliens.
They will be the first casualties.

And then as in cases in Europe when those with the liberal mindset are are attacked they worry about the perpetrators because otherwise they will see it as an admission of their own failure.
They don't want to be seen as racist.

One rape victim did not want their rapist deported because they might be subject to torture when they go back to their home country.
Yes lets keep a rapist so that some more people can be their victims.

Hell one victim in Ireland did not even want the rapist's name revealed because it would ruin his life.

FFS.

Not a single fact in there.You did however manage to take swipes at feminists, gay people and rape victims. Well done. You have the alt right trifecta.

thebull85

Grayson wrote: »

The places that use Sharia law in the west tend to mix it with civil law.

The idea is that for certain civil matters you can someone who's religiously and legally trained to perform a function.

A simple example is getting married. A priest can perform both the religious and legal ceremony. The same would go for an iman. In Canada if I remember correctly an iman can also perform a divorce. However the divorce must satisfy both canadian and muslim laws.

like you I'm wary of allowing religions too much power in a legal system. However I'm also not scared of the phrase sharia law. Catholics here follow canon law and I've never seen people scared about that.

Do you even know what sharia law is? And are you really comparing it to canon law?

thebull85

Sure sharia law is grand, lads.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html

jmayo

Grayson wrote: »

You should fact check it. You'll need a few hours.I started reading some of the articles that were linked.

One of them stated that people believed that suicide bombings by palestinians fighting against israelis were a justified tactic. He rephrased it as it's valid for muslims to suicide bomb jews.

The guy takes surveys, misrepresents the findings and fails to put them in context.
He's effectively lying to try and justify his own beliefs to others.

Anyone who used his site, or him, as a source of knowledge, is going to be deliberately misled.

Eh wasn't Humprhys the guy that had the video of the Halawa's up on stage at a muslim brotherhood protest ?
The video that disappeared elsewhere and proved embarrassing because it was the truth about what they were up to.

Grayson

corks finest wrote: »

Agree 100 percent,they don't integrate,mix,socialise with Irish ppl,and want to demean and weaken our Christian heritage

Except for the bit about christians you could be talking about cork people. Plus cork people don't speak english and they have a superiority complex.

Odhinn

thebull85 wrote: »

Sure sharia law is grand, lads.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html

I'll be nice and say that if you want to argue against Sharia law, that site wouldn't be a good place to start.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

like you I'm wary of allowing religions too much power in a legal system. However I'm also not scared of the phrase sharia law. Catholics here follow canon law and I've never seen people scared about that.

I'm not being scared, or paranoid (I know you didn't say paranoid). It simply comes that change happens in small steps in the background. Most people rarely know the changes in the law until it directly affects them.

I just feel that there is a mentality within European politics to make concessions to minority groups in order to appear fair. I do worry (slightly) that some of those concessions will allow Sharia law into our legal system, and provide precedence for further changes to be made.

Odhinn

Grayson wrote: »

Except for the bit about christians you could be talking about cork people. Plus cork people don't speak english and they have a superiority complex.

Aye. I'm willing to take a chance on the muslim lads, but the jury came in on the cork lot a long time ago.

thebull85

Odhinn wrote: »

I'll be nice and say that if you want to argue against Sharia law, that site wouldn't be a good place to start.

Just the response i expected. What is your knowledge on this particular site?

Odhinn

thebull85 wrote: »

Just the response i expected.

....If I posted something from a site called "OneBillionKorans.com" you'd let it pass muster?

thebull85

Odhinn wrote: »

....If I posted something from a site called "OneBillionKorans.com" you'd let it pass muster?

Are you familiar with sharia law? If so can you point out what is incorrect on the link i provided?

jmayo

Grayson wrote: »

Not a single fact in there.You did however manage to take swipes at feminists, gay people and rape victims. Well done. You have the alt right trifecta.

jmayo wrote: »

It is a superiority complex and an arrogance that they can change them.

Watching feminists and gays welcoming so called refugees in Europe reminded me of the scene in Independence Day of the eejits on the roof of the skyscraper welcoming the aliens.
They will be the first casualties.

Ok the scene from Independence Day didn't happen, I will give you that.

jmayo wrote: »

And then as in cases in Europe when those with the liberal mindset are are attacked they worry about the perpetrators because otherwise they will see it as an admission of their own failure.
They don't want to be seen as racist.

One rape victim did not want their rapist deported because they might be subject to torture when they go back to their home country.
Yes lets keep a rapist so that some more people can be their victims.

Norwegian rape survivor 'feels guilty' the man who assaulted him was deported.

A Norwegian man who was raped by a migrant has said he felt “guilt” after his attacker was deported.
...
Karsten Nordal Hauken, who describes himself as feminist and anti-racist, was sexually attacked five years ago.
...
“But I also got a strong sense of guilt and responsibility. I was the reason why he should not be left in Norway, but rather to face a very uncertain future in Somalia.

“He had already served his sentence in prison. Should he now be punished again? And this time much harder?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-rape-victim-feels-guilty-the-man-who-raped-him-was-deported-a6975041.html

jmayo wrote: »

Hell one victim in Ireland did not even want the rapist's name revealed because it would ruin his life.

The 39-year-old Egyptian national, who cannot be named at the direction of the judge, told his victim he would "give her the best 10 minutes of her life" before he raped her, the Central Criminal Court heard.

The man was found guilty by a jury of one count of rape, two counts of sexual assault and one count of threatening to kill the then 27-year-old woman between July 7 and 8, 2016.

The jury in the Central Criminal Court case returned the unanimous verdicts last November.

The court heard that identifying the man will not identify the victim, but she does not want him named because it will "destroy his life".
...
Yesterday, the court heard the man, an illegal immigrant, had a previous conviction for masturbating in public in 2013. He exposed himself in front of two women in Harcourt Street in Dublin, Garda Sylvia Ryan said. The court heard that a deportation order is in place, which he is appealing.

Wasn't there case of worker in the Calais jungle camp or one of the other "refugee" camnps who refused to report her rape because she did not want adverse publicity for "refugees"?

But of course these are all non facts according to some.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Because these kind of beliefs are changeable and personal. You can't just assume someone coming from a majority Muslim country believes homosexuality is wrong.

In Britain it's 52%, so you are more likely to be correct in your assumption that a Muslim in Britain does hold those views. I can't imagine those figures being any better throughout the Muslim world.

I wouldn't advocate for a Trump like ban on certain countries or a straight out Muslim ban, however the numbers of people going to the likes of Britain, Germany and Sweden in such a short space of time are too high imo and I wouldn't want that happening here.

We don't have the infrastructure and people, especially if coming in large groups, tend to stick together (which is natural) which can lead to ghetto like conditions and the propagation of those illiberal views.

eeguy

thebull85 wrote: »

Influx of muslim migrants brings terrorism and sex attacks as we have seen in Germany. And the bigger the numbers of them in a country the more likely these things are to happen..

Now we dont have a islamic terrorism problem here yet but as the numbers grow im sure we will.

Basically what you are saying is we just have to accept this fact because its not all muslims..

If limiting muslims coming into this country means we avoid terrorism and mass sex attacks id be all for it..

Would you not?

Muslims don't have the exclusive rights on terrorism and sex attacks. There's plenty of people here who do exactly the same thing. It's usually only widely reported when a male muslim breaks the law.

10000maniacs

Odhinn wrote: »

....If I posted something from a site called "OneBillionKorans.com" you'd let it pass muster?

Hyperbole and obfuscation.
Which part of the actual definition is incorrect in your opinion?

Zebra3

corks finest wrote: »

Agree 100 percent,they don't integrate,mix,socialise with Irish ppl,and want to demean and weaken our Christian heritage

Our “Christian heritage”?

Priests raping kids?

Women locked up in slave labour camps (many of them rape victims) for having a child outside marriage?

A total disregard for democracy like under the unspoken McQuaid dictatorship?

thebull85

eeguy wrote: »

Muslims don't have the exclusive rights on terrorism and sex attacks. There's plenty of people here who do exactly the same thing. It's usually only widely reported when a male muslim breaks the law.

No they dont have exclusive rights on it, but look at the rise of sex attacks and terrorism since Germany opened wide their doors. Its been a huge rise!

Again ill say if we can avoid this we should.

Do you not agree?

10000maniacs

Zebra3 wrote: »

Our “Christian heritage”?

Priests raping kids?

Women locked up in slave labour camps (many of them rape victims) for having a child outside marriage?

A total disregard for democracy like under the unspoken McQuaid dictatorship?

So two wrongs make a right?
Irish church-goers subsequently voted with their feet AND HAD THE RIGHT TO DO SO.

thebull85

A poster here just said its more widely reported here when a muslim breaks the law as opposed to a native.

Id love to see evidence of this.

Will I Am Not

Zebra3 wrote: »

Our “Christian heritage”?

Priests raping kids?

Women locked up in slave labour camps (many of them rape victims) for having a child outside marriage?

A total disregard for democracy like under the unspoken McQuaid dictatorship?

It’s funny how so many won’t have a problem with you branding that religion and it’s followers on the back of some heinous deeds done by its members. But if you start to do the same with Islam...

Captain Obvious

thebull85 wrote: »

Are you familiar with sharia law? If so can you point out what is incorrect on the link i provided?

Is there anyone on this thread arguing that Sharia law would be a good thing? Nobody is advocating for it. Why do you keep arguing it's negative points?

DanDan6592 wrote: »

In Britain it's 52%, so you are more likely to be correct in your assumption that a Muslim in Britain does hold those views. I can't imagine those figures being any better throughout the Muslim world.

I wouldn't advocate for a Trump like ban on certain countries or a straight out Muslim ban, however the numbers of people going to the likes of Britain, Germany and Sweden in such a short space of time are too high imo and I wouldn't want that happening here.

We don't have the infrastructure and people, especially if coming in large groups, tend to stick together (which is natural) which can lead to ghetto like conditions and the propagation of those illiberal views.

Nobody is arguing for unsustainable immigration. The difference is over what people deem sustainable.

thebull85

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Is there anyone on this thread arguing that Sharia law would be a good thing? Nobody is advocating for it. Why do you keep arguing it's negative points?



Nobody is arguing for unsustainable immigration. The difference is over what people deem sustainable.

My response was to a poster that said he didnt fear sharia law. I then asked to be pointed out what is incorrect in the article i posted.

I guess ill be left waiting for a response.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Funny you should mention Kosovo.
It has gone from a secular state to probably Europe's Jihadist stronghold.

All thanks to huge Saudi investment in spreading Salafist attitude.

Bosnia also has gone backwards ever since the foreign islamist fighters of the 90s and also Saudi investment.

you really should google more. taking your information from one article doesn't always give you the full picture.

yes, a lot of young men from Kosovo did go to fight with ISIS. there is massive unemployment & ISIS were paying.

It is a muslim country with none of the problems people on this thread seem to think come from Islam. There was a PRIDE parade here last year.

Captain Obvious

thebull85 wrote: »

My response was to a poster that said he didnt fear sharia law. I then asked to be pointed out what is incorrect in the article i posted.

I guess ill be left waiting for a response.

I don't fear Tigers. I know they are dangerous but they aren't really something for me to worry about.

thebull85

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I don't fear Tigers. I know they are dangerous but they aren't really something for me to worry about.

Exactly, we dont have Tigers roaming free in Ireland.