Is Islam right for Ireland?

Greyling

What do Nigerian gangs here have to do with Islam? You know the Nigerians that came here are Christian?

Auguste Comte

thebull85 wrote: »

Its a common theme when the attacker is not white to not give a description to the public, but they 'will pass the description on to other garda stations'

Yep, 100% not white

Can you back this theory up? I would be interested in reading more about it.

thebull85

murphthesmurf wrote: »

The mafia in Italy are at war with Nigerian crime gangs according to several news articles I've read online. Who'd have thought the biggest threat to one of the worlds largest and well known criminal organisations would come from multiculturalism in the form of Nigerian crime gangs arriving via charities and NGO boat taxis from Libya. Couldn't make it up.

And who would of thought a leafy Dublin suburb would also have a problem, i have family in the gallops a house worth nearly a million quid and this incident happend two minutes walk away.

How are they living there to begin with???

murphthesmurf

Gravelly wrote: »

It's especially strange that they have a photofit and description, but appear to be willing to put the public in danger by not releasing it. I wonder if this would leave them liable in the event some other poor girl is attacked?

Unlikely if we follow the UK police trend. They allowed thousands of children to be raped for decades, not one police officer or social worker has recieved any disciplinary or legal action to date. The avoidance of racism takes priority and places one above the law.

Gravelly

Greyling wrote: »

What do Nigerian gangs here have to do with Islam? You know the Nigerians that came here are Christian?

All of them? That's a fair 'ol whack of an assumption isn't it?

Captain Obvious

Gravelly wrote: »

It's especially strange that they have a photofit and description, but appear to be willing to put the public in danger by not releasing it. I wonder if this would leave them liable in the event some other poor girl is attacked?

That a procedural thing. Releasing to the public is a last measure. It gets circulated to Gardaí first.

Gravelly

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That a procedural thing. Releasing to the public is a last measure. It gets circulated to Gardaí first.

Does it? Didn't know that.

Greyling

Gravelly wrote: »

All of them? That's a fair 'ol whack of an assumption isn't it?

No. Its true. The Muslim Nigerians are not leaving.

Assetbacked

thebull85 wrote: »

https://extra.ie/2018/05/01/news/irish-news/garda-manhunt-limerick-assault

description of attacker not released to the public, i wonder why?

This is comical; many of the news agencies are running with this story and stating it is a manhunt. The Gardaí have asked for assistance yet the only information we have to go on is what he was wearing and that he had latex gloves. Inferring that he is part of an ethnic or religious minority group ensues. Naturally, one could assume the publication of his appearance, if not white, could lead to stereotyping. However, it could also lead to the capture of the individual to ensure he is brought to justice and cannot offend again.

As such, the Gardaí could be more concerned about the possibility of people developing negative stereotypes about an ethnicity or religious group than with the solving of a serious crime. If true, I would render this a serious scandal. And I'm also sure the sexual assault victim would be delighted to know what the priorities are.

Kotek Besar

Gravelly wrote: »

All of them? That's a fair 'ol whack of an assumption isn't it?

The usual reason for a Nigerian applying for asylum in Ireland was due to "being persecuted by Muslims in Nigeria". They were seeking refuge in their Irish Christian brethren.

So yes, most Nigerian people in Ireland are Christian, but some might be Muslim who pretended to be Christian for the reason stated above.

Gravelly

Kotek Besar wrote: »

The usual reason for a Nigerian applying for asylum in Ireland was due to "being persecuted by Muslims in Nigeria". They were seeking refuge in their Irish Christian brethren.

So yes, most Nigerian people in Ireland are Christian, but some might be Muslim who pretended to be Christian for the reason stated above.

Speaks volumes of the ridiculousness of the asylum process, seeing as how almost half the population of Nigeria is Christian. I've several Nigerian muslims on the teams I train.

murphthesmurf

Kotek Besar wrote: »

The usual reason for a Nigerian applying for asylum in Ireland was due to "being persecuted by Muslims in Nigeria".

This goes a long way to answer the question of the thread too 'is Islam right for Ireland' when we have Nigerians here who were forced to flee persecution by Muslims because they were Christian. Should we really be welcoming their persecutors?

Kotek Besar

murphthesmurf wrote: »

This goes a long way to answer the question of the thread too 'is Islam right for Ireland' when we have Nigerians here who were forced to flee persecution by Muslims because they were Christian. Should we really be welcoming their persecutors?

...you know the claims were bogus, right?

Odhinn

Greyling wrote: »

What do Nigerian gangs here have to do with Islam? You know the Nigerians that came here are Christian?

Nigerian Islamist Roma are the deadliest thing to hit Europe since the black plague. And your sky sports fee subsidies them.

Rory28

Odhinn wrote: »

Nigerian Islamist Roma are the deadliest thing to hit Europe since the black plague. And your sky sports fee subsidies them is ignored by them as it shows women in varying states of undress.

FYP

WinnyThePoo

murphthesmurf wrote: »

This is one of the things I find most confusing and hypocritical. We are bombarded with feminism on tv and radio, and women are better off now than ever (another subject altogether), gay rights have come on a long way with gay marraige etc. But all these things take a back seat when it comes to multiculturalism.
The lefts priority list goes as follows
1. Islam and multiculturalism
2. Womens rights and gay rights
.......
99. Insects
100. White men.

Sorry ladies, feminism is cool, but accepting of other cultures is cooler. Gay rights are today, but Islam is tomorrow.
We know for a fact from surveys and commonsense that the majority of Muslims will not accept equal rights for women and gays are strictly taboo. Yet we welcome them with open arms. I really can't get my head around it.

This is so cute.

Thestones

I'm not gonna to hide my opinion, as a woman and a mother of a daughter I don't want Islam in Ireland, I can't understand why anyone would defend a culture that treats women so appallingly. I genuinely worry for our future 10-20 yrs from now.

taserfrank

Thestones wrote: »

I'm not gonna to hide my opinion, as a woman and a mother of a daughter I don't want Islam in Ireland, I can't understand why anyone would defend a culture that treats women so appallingly. I genuinely worry for our future 10-20 yrs from now.

Islam has an appalling ideaology, yet there are people on here who will blindly defend it, and blatantly overlook the brutal repression, segregation and violence it advocates.

malinheader

Thestones wrote: »

I'm not gonna to hide my opinion, as a woman and a mother of a daughter I don't want Islam in Ireland, I can't understand why anyone would defend a culture that treats women so appallingly. I genuinely worry for our future 10-20 yrs from now.

You have every right to be worried. The only frightening thing is it will be a lot sooner than 10 or 20 years if they don't kop on to this open door policy they have.

RustyNut

taserfrank wrote: »

Because he's brown, someone might get offended.

Did you just make that up because it doesn't say anything about his colour in that article?

baylah17

taserfrank wrote: »

Thestones wrote: »

I'm not gonna to hide my opinion, as a woman and a mother of a daughter I don't want Islam in Ireland, I can't understand why anyone would defend a culture that treats women so appallingly. I genuinely worry for our future 10-20 yrs from now.

Islam has an appalling ideaology, yet there are people on here who will blindly defend it, and blatantly overlook the brutal repression, segregation and violence it advocates.

Yawn

10000maniacs

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Can you back this theory up? I would be interested in reading more about it.

Why would the Gardai say they were working with interpol for more information based only on CCTV evidence? Weird eh?

donegaLroad

baylah17 wrote: »

Yawn

poor contribution to the debate.

baylah17

baylah17 wrote: »

Yawn

donegaLroad wrote: »

poor contribution to the debate.

Agreed, but ironically also the most accurate reflection of most people's thoughts which kinda tells you where this is going.

10000maniacs

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed, but ironically also the most accurate reflection of most people's thoughts which kinda tells you where this is going.

Just because the thread has been exhausted of topics, doesn't mean that YOU speak for most people. And it doesn't mean that it is not rude to post in a thread with the word "Yawn". It is called thread crapping or trolling.

quintana76

baylah17 wrote: »

Yawn

Good to see that you have listened to all the debate and contributions and and have judged that you know best. Not much of a listener are you? Hate to be your teacher.

ArthurDayne

taserfrank wrote: »

Islam has an appalling ideaology, yet there are people on here who will blindly defend it, and blatantly overlook the brutal repression, segregation and violence it advocates.

I've said it before and I shall say it again: Islam is awful. It is, like Christianity, a superstition based around some admirable central tenets, but like many other religions those tenets have been obfuscated behind daft, repressive and dangerous little rules and doctrines -- ranging from the manifestly absurd Catholic concept of transubstantiation to more dangerous attitudes (shared by the fundamental sides of many religious sects) towards gays and women.

We seem to think we are enlightened in Ireland. We are not. Homosexuality was only decriminalised within the lifetime of many contributors to this thread. Was it Islam holding us back all those years while being gay remained a criminal offence? Why are we supposedly enlightened Irish only now seeing fit to challenge laws which dictate that a woman impregnated via rape must see out the pregnancy? Seems just as oppressive to force a woman to do this as it is to force her to wear a headscarf, would you not agree?

The point is that I am not defending Islam, but merely pointing out that is unfair to attribute extremist views to all Muslims -- just as it is unfair to say that Ireland (which has for many years been one of, if not the most backward and religiously repressive parts of Western Europe) and its laws and Catholic dominance are reflective of all Irish people.

Rory28

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I've said it before and I shall say it again: Islam is awful. It is, like Christianity, a superstition based around some admirable central tenets, but like many other religions those tenets have been obfuscated behind daft, repressive and dangerous little rules and doctrines -- ranging from the manifestly absurd Catholic concept of transubstantiation to more dangerous attitudes (shared by the fundamental sides of many religious sects) towards gays and women.

We seem to think we are enlightened in Ireland. We are not. Homosexuality was only decriminalised within the lifetime of many contributors to this thread. Was it Islam holding us back all those years while being gay remained a criminal offence? Why are we supposedly enlightened Irish only now seeing fit to challenge laws which dictate that a woman impregnated via rape must see out the pregnancy? Seems just as oppressive to force a woman to do this as it is to force her to wear a headscarf, would you not agree?

The point is that I am not defending Islam, but merely pointing out that is unfair to attribute extremist views to all Muslims -- just as it is unfair to say that Ireland (which has for many years been one of, if not the most backward and religiously repressive parts of Western Europe) and its laws and Catholic dominance are reflective of all Irish people.

You may not be defending it but you are giving it a pass because at one time in history the Catholic church did some messed up ****. Thats not good enough.

Hector Savage

Here's why I am no longer left ...

They embrace this

https://twitter.com/markhumphrys/status/991695427945795585

JohnMc1

ArthurDayne wrote: »

more dangerous attitudes (shared by the fundamental sides of many religious sects) towards gays and women.

How is Christianity dangerous towards gays and Women? Believing in Traditional Marriage is not endangering gays. How is it dangerous to Women? FFS look at a Calendar before opening your mouth again. Look how many feast days Mary gets. Look how many special masses and events are in her honor. Look how many Women saints there are in Christianity.

For the love of God if you're going to cop the "Religion is stupid" attitude while pretending to be intelligent then atleast act like you know what you're talking about.

Christianity is no where near being horrible to Gays and Women that Islam is.

ArthurDayne

Rory28 wrote: »

You may not be defending it but you are giving it a pass because at one time in history the Catholic church did some messed up ****. Thats not good enough.

What do you mean by 'giving it a pass'? I am merely making the point that you have to divorce individual mindsets from the religions they follow. Far too many people are quick to dismiss historical examples as irrelevant, but history often provides a good barometer. If we accept that Ireland's religiously repressive society was not reflective of Irish people, where exactly do people here claim to have garnered the clairvoyance to dictate that the repressive societies of Islamic countries are reflective of all Muslims? Are we really going to claim that there are no gay Muslims? Are we going to claim that there are no Muslims who believe in female liberation? Or is simply a case, like it was for gay people here not so long ago, that they simply go along with the laws and customs so as not to risk the censure of their peers?

To me, it is perfectly correct to criticise Islam for the stupid and dangerous ideology it is. It is perfectly correct to challenge the homophobia and sexist beliefs which are undoubtedly prevalent in the Islamic faith. But there seems to be a ham-fisted rush to cry panic at the spectre of Muslims coming to our shores, and I merely implore that people understand that -- in a body of 1.5 billion Muslims -- it is wrong and dangerous to generalise them.

wexie

JohnMc1 wrote: »

FFS look at a Calendar before opening your mouth again. Look how many feast days Mary gets. Look how many special masses and events are in her honor. Look how many Women saints there are in Christianity.

wes

JohnMc1 wrote: »

How is Christianity dangerous towards gays and Women? Believing in Traditional Marriage is not endangering gays. How is it dangerous to Women? FFS look at a Calendar before opening your mouth again. Look how many feast days Mary gets. Look how many special masses and events are in her honor. Look how many Women saints there are in Christianity.

For the love of God if you're going to cop the "Religion is stupid" attitude while pretending to be intelligent then atleast act like you know what you're talking about.

Christianity is no where near being horrible to Gays and Women that Islam is.

I must have imagined the Magdalene laundries....... or the fact that far right American Christians were the ones behind trying to get the death penalty for LGBT people in Uganda. Lets not forget the Lord Resistance Army butchering there way around African continent. George W Bush saying God told him to invade Iraq. I can keep going if I was bothered enough, but its amazing how you and others like you are so willing to pretend that extremist Christian groups do not exist.

thebull85

wes wrote: »

I must have imagined the Magdalene laundries....... or the fact that far right American Christians were the ones behind trying to get the death penalty for LGBT people in Uganda. Lets not forget the Lord Resistance Army butchering there way around African continent. George W Bush saying God told him to invade Iraq. I can keep going if I was bothered enough, but its amazing how you and others like you are so willing to pretend that extremist Christian groups do not exist.

Whataboutery, there are no christian terror groups slaughtering kids at concerts in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.

wes

thebull85 wrote: »

Whataboutery, there are no christian terror groups slaughtering kids at concerts in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.

I didn't bring up Christians, I was replying to another poster, who was pretending that extremist Christians don't exsit. I picked examples from stuff that happened during my life time, most were from the last 2 decades. So its not "whatabotery". Honestly, you need to learn what the words you say mean.

Also, I gave the example of the Lord Resistance Army murdering people, they murdered plenty of children, and also forced them to join them as child soldiers. It wasn't that long ago either. Remember Kony2012, he is the leader of the LRA, and murdered a lot of people. There is also the Iraq war, which killed 10s of 1000s because God told George W Bush to invade it. Plenty of example of extremist Christians that you chose to ignore as it doesn't suit you.

Choosing to give a free pass to extremist Christians is pretty typical of people like you. I have to wonder why murdering in the name of one Religion is some how magically worse then the other.

Chris_Heilong

I think those who defend Islam here really need to do some research on the subject, it is so funny that Islam embodies all the traits that the left say they are against and yet they are so willing to defend it which to me shows a lack of knowledge on the subject matter or a willingness to ignore the bad parts in order to virtue signal, remember it is an ideology and not a people.

wes

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I think those who defend Islam here really need to do some research on the subject, it is so funny that Islam embodies all the traits that the left say they are against and yet they are so willing to defend it which to me shows a lack of knowledge on the subject matter or a willingness to ignore the bad parts in order to virtue signal.

The reason the right are so against Islam, is that they want to implement those policies themselves . We can see it with the like of Trump, Orban and others of there ilk. When, it comes right down to it, those who most hate Islam and Muslims, have views that aren't really all that different then far right Muslims themselves.

ArthurDayne

JohnMc1 wrote: »

How is Christianity dangerous towards gays and Women? Believing in Traditional Marriage is not endangering gays. How is it dangerous to Women? FFS look at a Calendar before opening your mouth again. Look how many feast days Mary gets. Look how many special masses and events are in her honor. Look how many Women saints there are in Christianity.

For the love of God if you're going to cop the "Religion is stupid" attitude while pretending to be intelligent then atleast act like you know what you're talking about.

Christianity is no where near being horrible to Gays and Women that Islam is.

I have never claimed to be intelligent. Unlike religious people, I do not claim to have the supreme intelligence of knowing definitively what force, divine or otherwise, set the universe in motion.

Using the saints as some sort of example of female liberation is highly ironic. If you cannot see that, then I do not think we are ever going to agree on anything as far as this thread goes. What great role models for young Irish women eh? Religiously "pure" righteous women who could conceive babies through divine miracle (the Virgin Mary), or heal abdominal tumours (Mother Theresa). Nah -- they are nothing more than the mythologised caricatures of unobtainable morality which have been used to suppress female rights and sexual liberation.

I agree that modern [so-called] Christian societies have (eventually and with many centuries of stubborn resistance) greatly improved their woeful record against women and gays precisely because the people have rejected what their priests and ministers have been telling them. They have rejected literal interpretations of the Bible which tell them to put gays to death, and all the ludicrous diktats the Bible lays down as to how women should behave in deference to men. The so-called Christian societies now flourish in spite of Christianity, not because of it. Nowhere is this more apparent in the developed world than Ireland.

Much of this has been possible because Christian countries, through relative wealth and prosperity, were able to devote more time towards the higher pursuits of science and philosophical thinking. As our knowledge grew, and our education developed with it, we began to realise ever-increasingly that religion was an oppressor of free thought and an obstacle to progress. I have confidence that these attitudes will someday take greater root in the Islamic world too -- but we will never engender that if we always stand by a mantra of "you are a Muslim so you are all the same and stay away from us!".

wes

wes wrote: »

Choosing to give a free pass to extremist Christians is pretty typical of people like you. I have to wonder why murdering in the name of one Religion is some how magically worse then the other.

Because we're aware of the dangers of Christianity or other western religious practices. It's been part of our culture, and has been relatively recently pushed out of our mainstream society. Most Europeans would not tolerate murder or any other abusive behavior in the name of Christianity. And the numbers of Extremist Christians is far less than the numbers of Extreme Muslims.... better yet, the numbers of Devout Christians is far less than the numbers of devout Muslims. All statistics point to a serious decline in the numbers of practicing Christians in Europe, whereas the numbers of Muslims is increasing worldwide.

Yes, the reform in our national culture regarding Religion is relatively new. I went to religious schools, and was brought up in a very religious environment. But the changes have occurred. That environment is dead. Just go to any Church service in Ireland and you'll see only old people there, and slim numbers at best. The last funeral I went to, most people didn't know the prayers themselves, or any of the songs. That's the Ireland of today.

Most Westerners have not spent any extensive time in a muslim country. There is a huge gulf of difference between personal knowledge and reading something online. Most Europeans know very little about Islam except as a subject described in a newspaper article or portrayed in a movie. All subject to the perception of the authors.

I'd put it this way. Christianity is the monster we know. Islam is the monster we know very little of...

Christianity does not get a free pass. Especially not in Ireland, anymore. If you believe it does, then I can only imagine you're very young and have no memory of what Ireland was like 30 years ago. However, go to a Muslim country, and you will see Islamic traditional practices receive not just a free pass, but a ban on any discussion that criticizes them.

Christian Extremists are extreme... naturally. Islamic extremists are a whole different level.

10000maniacs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Much of this has been possible because Christian countries, through relative wealth and prosperity, were able to devote more time towards the higher pursuits of science and philosophical thinking. As our knowledge grew, and our education developed with it,

Philosophical thinking. That will save me.
I'm sure thats what the victims of Islam in Mosil were thinking when they were spit roasted alive, burnt alive in cages, thrown off the tops of buildings, beheaded or crucified.

JohnMc1

wes wrote: »

The reason the right are so against Islam, is that they want to implement those policies themselves . We can see it with the like of Trump, Orban and others of there ilk. When, it comes right down to it, those who most hate Islam and Muslims, have views that aren't really all that different then far right Muslims themselves.

nice attempt at deflection. If the right really wanted to implement Sharia like policies then don't you think it would be people on the right that would want them here? It would make there chances of implementing them alot easier. Nope. The people who want there here are all on the Left. Maybe the Left are the ones that want to implement Sharia like laws. Macron has already stated previously that he thinks he can reform Sharia. They're the ones shutting down any criticism of Islam.

wes

JohnMc1 wrote: »

nice attempt at deflection. If the right really wanted to implement Sharia like policies then don't you think it would be people on the right that would want them here?

The right generally hate people different than them. Of course they wouldn't want them here. The right want to implement there own set of hateful policies and one of the groups there targeting are Muslims. See I can caricature the right as well.

Still the caricature isn't based on nothing. You ignore the various right wing politicians like Trump, who has implemented a Trangender military ban, which people like you choose to ignore.

Look at the UK, with how the Windrush people are being treated, due the Theresa Mays "hostile environment", all of those people went to the UK legally. I could easily keep pointing out all the right wing bull**** your lot choose to ignore, but the fact is that you will simply ignore reality.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

It would make there chances of implementing them alot easier. Nope. The people who want there here are all on the Left. Maybe the Left are the ones that want to implement Sharia like laws. Macron has already stated previously that he thinks he can reform Sharia. They're the ones shutting down any criticism of Islam.

People disagreeing with you is not shutting down criticism.

Also, the caricature of the left that you present doesn't exist. The left wants people treated like individuals, where as the right argue against straw men that don't exist.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Christianity does not get a free pass.

Another straw man argument. Read the post I was replying to, where the poster was doing exactly that. Honestly, the number of posters not arguing in good faith on this thread is at epidemic levels. Its really rather sad and quite frankly pathetic that so many are unable to actual deal with what was said, as opposed to what you chose to imagine was said. Your clearly able to read and why you chose to ignore the context of my post is beyond me, but its astonishing you bothered to put so much effort into misrepresenting what I posted.

Gravelly

wes wrote: »

The right generally hate people different than them. Of course they wouldn't want them here. The right want to implement there own set of hateful policies and one of the groups there targetting are Muslims.

You ignore the various right wing politicians like Trump, who has implemented a Trangender military ban, which people like you choose to ignore.

Look at the UK, with how the Windrush people are being treated, due the Theresa Mays "hostile environment", all of those people went to the UK legally. I could easily keep pointing out all the right wing bull**** your lot choose to ignore, but the fact is that you will simply ignore reality.



People disagreeing with you is not shutting down criticism.

Also, the caricature of the left that you present doesn't exist. The left wants people treated like individuals, where as the right argue against straw men that don't exist.

Unless they are straight, white, males. Then they are all bad.

wes

Gravelly wrote: »

Unless they are straight, white, males. Then they are all bad.

A perfect example of a caricature and the persecution complex some posters have.

WinnyThePoo

Gravelly wrote: »

Unless they are straight, white, males. Then they are all bad.

Just like all Muslims are radical terrorists? ¡

Dr Brown

Islam is a VERY dangerous religion and should be banned. IMO.

Mutant z

Dr Brown wrote: »

Islam is a VERY dangerous religion and should be banned. IMO.

Or kept in the Arabian desert where it belongs just as long as its thousands of miles away from herd where it cant do harm.

Gravelly

wes wrote: »

A perfect example of a caricature and the persecution complex some posters have.

Read almost any liberal / leftist opinion piece nowadays and this is obvious, to deny it is disingenuous at best. Google "straight white male" for a slew of newspaper articles, opinion pieces, blogs, even plays that use terms to describe this group in ways that would have "liberals" marching in their pussy hats if it was said about literally any other group.

"On hating the straight white male"

"White Men the most dehumanising insult of our times"

Gravelly

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Just like all Muslims are radical terrorists? ¡

Are they? Link?