Is Islam right for Ireland?

10000maniacs

Greyling wrote: »

No, you can mention any issues and they should be discussed. The extremism comes in to play when you can't recognise they are not a blanket problem with 1.8 billion people. That's what makes you an extremist.

There is no reason to believe these things will be a problem in Ireland. Particularly with Syrians who tend to be some of the most tolerant Muslims in the middle East.

So the Syrians are going to tolerate us when they arrive? That is jolly nice of them.

Jamiekelly

I used to be like many of the posters here defending Islam, in fact I'd say I was even more so strident in my accusations of calling people racists and fear mongers. But then Charlie Hebdo happened and I started to see exactly what so many conservatives had been pointing out about one thing in particular. Attitude.

Not just the attitude of my fellow left wingers, who put a lot of the blame on the cartoonists for provoking a reaction but also the attitude of the more "moderate" Muslims who would openly state they were sympathetic with the killers. It was a real eye opener to the very real danger of a more "bourgeois" liberalism that wouldn't dare be accused of being intolerant to religious minorities so they would often fall over themselves to shift the goal posts and never attribute blame solely where it should be attributed, an extremist ideology.

One of the best speakers on this subject is Maajid Nawaz. He perfectly points out the inconsistencies of the left to stand up for liberal values when it actually mattered and how the left has actually tied itself in knots because of how they have confused pluralistic secularism with being tolerant of the intolerant.

I see where I was only 6 or 7 years ago in a few of the posters here, and I understand where they are coming from because I was once in their shoes. However, this is going to be the defining issue of our generation (whether we like it or not) and defending an extremist ideology is not the same as defending people who have been brought up in that ideology. We all want a society where a place of religious worship can open and be a benefit to it's community without repercussion to wider society, but the fact remains that Islam has something fundamentally different at it's core than all other religions.

It has a deeply political and legal heart to it. The other major 4 religions in the world can reform and gel with secular law with ease because its basic foundations are very broad and have had far more time in human history to adjust. Islam is about to go through this stage of it's history because it has no real choice but to do so.

A religion cannot sustain itself when it has been embroiled in a civil war since its creation. The Kurdish know this more than any Muslim group because they have been suffering the brunt of Islamic sectarianism for generations now from four separate countries with different interpretations of Islam and instead of turning towards the religion, which is what usually happens, they turned away from it and towards a more nationalistic political culture. It's one of the main reason why they have helped the US out in Iraq during both the gulf war and the 2003 war. They see their future as secular marxists rather than theocratic Islamists.

TL;DR
Islam is not good for Ireland because it is incompatible with secular law. Until it goes through a political reformation it will remain like that. There is no need for posters here to be so black and white about people being concerned about Islam. Not all of us are racists who hate an entire group of people. Some of us used to be like you. This is far more nuanced than people here suggest. Liberal values are not to be applied haphazardly. You either believe in them for all people in a society or you don't believe in them at all.



Did I really just write all that? Must be the heat

ArthurDayne

Jamiekelly wrote: »

I used to be like many of the posters here defending Islam, in fact I'd say I was even more so strident in my accusations of calling people racists and fear mongers. But then Charlie Hebdo happened and I started to see exactly what so many conservatives had been pointing out about one thing in particular. Attitude.

Not just the attitude of my fellow left wingers, who put a lot of the blame on the cartoonists for provoking a reaction but also the attitude of the more "moderate" Muslims who would openly state they were sympathetic with the killers. It was a real eye opener to the very real danger of a more "bourgeois" liberalism that wouldn't dare be accused of being intolerant to religious minorities so they would often fall over themselves to shift the goal posts and never attribute blame solely where it should be attributed, an extremist ideology.

One of the best speakers on this subject is Maajid Nawaz. He perfectly points out the inconsistencies of the left to stand up for liberal values when it actually mattered and how the left has actually tied itself in knots because of how they have confused pluralistic secularism with being tolerant of the intolerant.

I see where I was only 6 or 7 years ago in a few of the posters here, and I understand where they are coming from because I was once in their shoes. However, this is going to be the defining issue of our generation (whether we like it or not) and defending an extremist ideology is not the same as defending people who have been brought up in that ideology. We all want a society where a place of religious worship can open and be a benefit to it's community without repercussion to wider society, but the fact remains that Islam has something fundamentally different at it's core than all other religions.

It has a deeply political and legal heart to it. The other major 4 religions in the world can reform and gel with secular law with ease because its basic foundations are very broad and have had far more time in human history to adjust. Islam is about to go through this stage of it's history because it has no real choice but to do so.

A religion cannot sustain itself when it has been embroiled in a civil war since its creation. The Kurdish know this more than any Muslim group because they have been suffering the brunt of Islamic sectarianism for generations now from four separate countries with different interpretations of Islam and instead of turning towards the religion, which is what usually happens, they turned away from it and towards a more nationalistic political culture. It's one of the main reason why they have helped the US out in Iraq during both the gulf war and the 2003 war. They see their future as secular marxists rather than theocratic Islamists.

TL;DR
Islam is not good for Ireland because it is incompatible with secular law. Until it goes through a political reformation it will remain like that. There is no need for posters here to be so black and white about people being concerned about Islam. Not all of us are racists who hate an entire group of people. Some of us used to be like you. This is far more nuanced than people here suggest. Liberal values are not to be applied haphazardly. You either believe in them for all people in a society or you don't believe in them at all.



Did I really just write all that? Must be the heat

All very sincere but again there is this somewhat irritating tendency to talk about 'defending Islam'. This is not about defending Islam; a religion which (like many religions) has some admirable moral standpoints but is also replete with repressive and hateful doctrine and customs. The world will be a better place when Islam is subject to the same intellectual barrage which has diluted the power of Christianity. The point many of us are making, rather, is that it is wrong to suppose that Islamic extremism or the more repressive tents of the Islamic faith are reflective of the individual attitudes and capability to integrate of every single one of the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet.

I work with Muslims in a North American bank based in the IFSC. They are all lovely people and of the 2 Muslim girls in the team, both dress like any other everyday Irish professional woman. One of them drinks and is full of banter, the other doesn't drink but is equally good craic. We will achieve absolutely nothing for our society by alienating these good people in saying that they are simply lost causes because of the faith they were brought up in. People are losing sight of this -- to a dangerous degree.

If we are to espouse the notion that all Muslims be seen effectively as fundamentalists who are to be distrusted and deemed incompatible with our society, then the only logical conclusion is to ban all Muslim migration isn't it? If we cannot accept them as individuals, then what is the point in even having a quota of Muslims (the airy fairy 5+5% quota cited earlier springs to mind) if they are simply to be categorised as a thorn in Ireland's side to simply be tolerated with suspicion rather than embraced as fellow human beings equally capable of rational thought as any of us?

Just as you say it is unfair to be black-and-white about people who are concerned about Muslim immigration, it is difficult to not get frustrated by those who are more than just concerned but who advocate that we should distrust Muslims immigrants on an effectively automatic basis. For any Irish Muslim reading this thread, or any Muslim who has recently arrived in Ireland, this thread would make horrendous reading. One could not blame them for extrapolating the following summation of this thread : "You are Muslim. You are incompatible with us for no other reason than you are Muslim."

We will have a hard time even attempting to help our Muslim neighbours integrate into Ireland as long as such attitudes persist.

Billy86

donegaLroad wrote: »

as a non muslim male, what are my chances of meeting a nice muslim girl, having a relationship and maybe getting married?

Answer: zero (unless Im in Tunisia)

I've two Muslim ex's who would find this pretty funny.

Snake Plisken

Billy86 wrote: »

I've two Muslim ex's who would find this pretty funny.

So did you think those relationships could have gone further and you could have married them or would
1) you would have had to convert to Islam
Or
2) They would have had to leave Islam which would not have gone down well with their families?
Just curious.

Billy86

Given one of them has a sister and two brothers married to non-Muslims I really can't see that it would have been an issue.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone care to explain the benefits of Islamic migration? Anyone?

Trying again

Greyling

10000maniacs wrote: »

So the Syrians are going to tolerate us when they arrive? That is jolly nice of them.

You must be joking. Not only will they tolerate us but they will be happy to be here. But considering you're using words like "jolly" I'm assuming you're a brit and we're happy enough to have you here too.

Jolly good and tally ho on a discussion on an Irish forum about immigration.

Greyling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Trying again

Would you listen or is your mind made up?

Its all alt right

Greyling wrote: »

Would you listen or is your mind made up?

New food and the feels?

Greyling

Its all alt right wrote: »

New food and the feels?

Alright Pepe! How's trix?

Its all alt right

Greyling wrote: »

Alright Pepe! How's trix?

Not bad Socky, not bad.

ArthurDayne

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying again

The question is unfairly extremely broad. One does not talk about Protestant immigration, or Hindu immigration, or Buddhist immigration. As has been repeated many times now on this thread, there are over a billion Muslims on the planet from many different countries and cultures. They may be low-skilled workers, doctors, bankers, or simply young people with huge potential to develop in an open and business-friendly jurisdiction like Ireland.

Nonetheless, much of the Arab world is resource-rich and populous but as of yet remains underdeveloped. This means business opportunity. I can only speak for my own area of work however, and I'm sure others can talk about the contribution of people from Muslim countries to other walks of life. Anyway, by positioning ourselves as a country with the knowledge basis of the Arab world (and other regions such as Australasia), it greatly increases our ability to tap into a market which is already huge and is only going to get bigger. Even now, Ireland is doing great business in dealing with Shariah-compliant funds. We have an Islamic Finance Council of Ireland and high value listings and domiciled Shariah funds in Ireland, which are helping to provide work for Irish and Ireland-based law firms, accounting firms, fund administrators -- not to mention aiding our regulators in the Central Bank in developing their understanding of this rapidly growing market. So, immigration from Muslim countries, or more specifically people with Arabic language skills (and other languages spoken throughout the Muslim world) and an acute understanding of those economies and societies, will help Ireland to remain at the forefront of foreign direct investment from a market which is going to be massive in the years to come -- and indeed our economy is so highly dependant on investment like this.

Now that's obviously just one niche, but of course is one of the niches people don't tend to think about. I am presuming what your question is getting at is more or less the issue of extremism? Would I be right in saying that? If so, happy to give my two cents in a separate answer.

AllForIt

Is Lamb on the menu, mam?

Greyling

Its all alt right wrote: »

Not bad Socky, not bad.

Grand as well. Peace be upon you.

AllForIt

Mod: is tea?

Its all alt right

Greyling wrote: »

Grand as well. Peace be upon you.

Didn't ask. However PBUU2

donegaLroad

ArthurDayne wrote: »

All very sincere but again there is this somewhat irritating tendency to talk about 'defending Islam'. This is not about defending Islam; a religion which (like many religions) has some admirable moral standpoints but is also replete with repressive and hateful doctrine and customs. The world will be a better place when Islam is subject to the same intellectual barrage which has diluted the power of Christianity. The point many of us are making, rather, is that it is wrong to suppose that Islamic extremism or the more repressive tents of the Islamic faith are reflective of the individual attitudes and capability to integrate of every single one of the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet.

I work with Muslims in a North American bank based in the IFSC. They are all lovely people and of the 2 Muslim girls in the team, both dress like any other everyday Irish professional woman. One of them drinks and is full of banter, the other doesn't drink but is equally good craic. We will achieve absolutely nothing for our society by alienating these good people in saying that they are simply lost causes because of the faith they were brought up in. People are losing sight of this -- to a dangerous degree.

If we are to espouse the notion that all Muslims be seen effectively as fundamentalists who are to be distrusted and deemed incompatible with our society, then the only logical conclusion is to ban all Muslim migration isn't it? If we cannot accept them as individuals, then what is the point in even having a quota of Muslims (the airy fairy 5+5% quota cited earlier springs to mind) if they are simply to be categorised as a thorn in Ireland's side to simply be tolerated with suspicion rather than embraced as fellow human beings equally capable of rational thought as any of us?

Just as you say it is unfair to be black-and-white about people who are concerned about Muslim immigration, it is difficult to not get frustrated by those who are more than just concerned but who advocate that we should distrust Muslims immigrants on an effectively automatic basis. For any Irish Muslim reading this thread, or any Muslim who has recently arrived in Ireland, this thread would make horrendous reading. One could not blame them for extrapolating the following summation of this thread : "You are Muslim. You are incompatible with us for no other reason than you are Muslim."

We will have a hard time even attempting to help our Muslim neighbours integrate into Ireland as long as such attitudes persist.

Correct, it is wrong to generlise.

Greyling

Its all alt right wrote: »

Didn't ask. However PBUU2

Shukran

10000maniacs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

The question is unfairly extremely broad. One does not talk about Protestant immigration, or Hindu immigration, or Buddhist immigration. As has been repeated many times now on this thread, there are over a billion Muslims on the planet from many different countries and cultures. They may be low-skilled workers, doctors, bankers, or simply young people with huge potential to develop in an open and business-friendly jurisdiction like Ireland.

Nonetheless, much of the Arab world is resource-rich and populous but as of yet remains underdeveloped. This means business opportunity. I can only speak for my own area of work however, and I'm sure others can talk about the contribution of people from Muslim countries to other walks of life. Anyway, by positioning ourselves as a country with the knowledge basis of the Arab world (and other regions such as Australasia), it greatly increases our ability to tap into a market which is already huge and is only going to get bigger. Even now, Ireland is doing great business in dealing with Shariah-compliant funds. We have an Islamic Finance Council of Ireland and high value listings and domiciled Shariah funds in Ireland, which are helping to provide work for Irish and Ireland-based law firms, accounting firms, fund administrators -- not to mention aiding our regulators in the Central Bank in developing their understanding of this rapidly growing market. So, immigration from Muslim countries, or more specifically people with Arabic language skills (and other languages spoken throughout the Muslim world) and an acute understanding of those economies and societies, will help Ireland to remain at the forefront of foreign direct investment from a market which is going to be massive in the years to come -- and indeed our economy is so highly dependant on investment like this.

Now that's obviously just one niche, but of course is one of the niches people don't tend to think about. I am presuming what your question is getting at is more or less the issue of extremism? Would I be right in saying that? If so, happy to give my two cents in a separate answer.

A lot of the Arab world is underdeveoped because western engineers take their life in their hands subcontracting in some of the most underdeveloped regions in Iraq, Syria and Afghanastan. Only yesterday, 7 Indian engineers were kidnapped by the Taliban in Afghanistan. That's the cost of doing business in these countries. Your head on a plate most likely.

10000maniacs

Greyling wrote: »

I travelled a few thousand kilometres between Saudi and Amman in the last few days and I'm still here. Who are the unlucky 7?

Good to feel tolerated.
About the 7 kidnapped Indian engineers, type "indian engineers kidnapped" into Google and you will find the story.

Greyling

10000maniacs wrote: »

Good to feel tolerated.
About the 7 kidnapped Indian engineers, type "indian engineers kidnapped" into Google and you will find the story.

Google who is most likely to get kidnapped by who.

10000maniacs

Greyling wrote: »

Google who is most likely to get kidnapped by who.

OMG. I really cannot help you there. Are you trolling with that question?
By the way why did you delete your previous post?

Greyling

10000maniacs wrote: »

OMG

https://m.ranker.com/list/famous-kidnapping-victims/ranker-news

OMG AHHH!

Greyling

If you're not a British spy here's one of many

https://news.vice.com/article/body-of-ira-kidnapping-victim-brendan-megraw-found-after-36-years

10000maniacs

Greyling wrote: »

https://m.ranker.com/list/famous-kidnapping-victims/ranker-news

OMG AHHH!

Did you google "Indian engineers kidnapped". If yes, what did you see when you pressed the blue search button (the button with the magnifying glass icon)?

Greyling

I do think you're a brit though. And you should apologise.

Richard Hillman

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/993620283587166209

OneEightSeven

Greyling wrote: »

Most of the problems are being caused by North Africans and South Asians in Britain and Europe. We have no real history of numbers of these people coming to Ireland. People are worried about Syrian refugees and they shouldn't be.

I know they're not Syrians, but the differences are superficial: read up about activities of the Lebanese communities in Western Sydney.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/four-shootings-in-two-weeks-and-a-gang-war-on-the-rise-inside-australias-most-dangerous-suburb/news-story/b5df1aa69cf2f4d1d2c884760e315745

In the Fairfield Police local area command, there was also an attempted drive-by shooting between the rival gangs and the fire bombing of a house, both in March this year.


Sydney’s Assyrian community of more than 20,000 people whose families originally came from Turkey, Syria and Iraq, mainly live in the greater Fairfield area which includes suburbs Edensor Park and Abbottsbury.
The Assyrian Kings gang was formed from a small number of northern Iraqi refugees who fled the Middle East in the wake of the 1990 Gulf War, and were given asylum in Australia.

There was also these gang rape attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes

riffmongous

10000maniacs wrote: »

A lot of the Arab world is underdeveoped because western engineers take their life in their hands subcontracting in some of the most underdeveloped regions in Iraq, Syria and Afghanastan. Only yesterday, 7 Indian engineers were kidnapped by the Taliban in Afghanistan. That's the cost of doing business in these countries. Your head on a plate most likely.

Afghanistan isn't part of the Arab world.. and India isn't part of the 'West' for whatever that is worth.. and when you say 'these countries' aren't you just really referring to actual warzones? Where you know thousands of the locals also die each year in addition to the unfortunate westerners.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

For any Irish Muslim reading this thread, or any Muslim who has recently arrived in Ireland, this thread would make horrendous reading. One could not blame them for extrapolating the following summation of this thread : "You are Muslim. You are incompatible with us for no other reason than you are Muslim."

My understanding of people's fear of Muslim immigrants is the classic groups that are in other European countries who don't integrate in the slightest, and thus wouldn't be reading an Irish forum in English.

Do we have some posters here representing the Muslims who have arrived in Ireland and have taken on our culture? There should be a couple knocking around in this thread, since they're the subject matter of the conversation.


And anyways, I don't see why they'd be offended at all. If they've integrated into our culture to the point of reading this, then there'd surely be a lot of agreement regarding the Muslims who don't integrate.

Greyling

Richard Hillman wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/993620283587166209

If you link that lads stats you wear your opinion on your sleeve. I can respect that at least.

In my opinion you are complete scum for doing it but free speech and that.

Experience_day

ArthurDayne wrote: »

All very sincere but again there is this somewhat irritating tendency to talk about 'defending Islam'. This is not about defending Islam; a religion which (like many religions) has some admirable moral standpoints but is also replete with repressive and hateful doctrine and customs. The world will be a better place when Islam is subject to the same intellectual barrage which has diluted the power of Christianity. The point many of us are making, rather, is that it is wrong to suppose that Islamic extremism or the more repressive tents of the Islamic faith are reflective of the individual attitudes and capability to integrate of every single one of the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet.

I work with Muslims in a North American bank based in the IFSC. They are all lovely people and of the 2 Muslim girls in the team, both dress like any other everyday Irish professional woman. One of them drinks and is full of banter, the other doesn't drink but is equally good craic. We will achieve absolutely nothing for our society by alienating these good people in saying that they are simply lost causes because of the faith they were brought up in. People are losing sight of this -- to a dangerous degree.

If we are to espouse the notion that all Muslims be seen effectively as fundamentalists who are to be distrusted and deemed incompatible with our society, then the only logical conclusion is to ban all Muslim migration isn't it? If we cannot accept them as individuals, then what is the point in even having a quota of Muslims (the airy fairy 5+5% quota cited earlier springs to mind) if they are simply to be categorised as a thorn in Ireland's side to simply be tolerated with suspicion rather than embraced as fellow human beings equally capable of rational thought as any of us?

Just as you say it is unfair to be black-and-white about people who are concerned about Muslim immigration, it is difficult to not get frustrated by those who are more than just concerned but who advocate that we should distrust Muslims immigrants on an effectively automatic basis. For any Irish Muslim reading this thread, or any Muslim who has recently arrived in Ireland, this thread would make horrendous reading. One could not blame them for extrapolating the following summation of this thread : "You are Muslim. You are incompatible with us for no other reason than you are Muslim."

We will have a hard time even attempting to help our Muslim neighbours integrate into Ireland as long as such attitudes persist.

I'm either going blind and missed your reply or you didn't reply to the point made before...

Experience_day wrote: »

The point I was making (the one you ignored to focus on my other one) is that this group of people (yes 1.5bn strong) are not known for being tolerant of homosexuals, womans rights and certainly not of other religions or apostasy.

In light of the 1.5bn and the countries which are already Islamic, why would we want to have them here?

Which ties in with what you are talking about above...

Islam will not be subject to the same intellectual barrage that Christianity has. Being able to dissect aspects of Christianity isn't new, being able to theologise and philosophise almost makes up Christian culture and the society we have today (from the renaissance onwards..)

People cannot and will not do the same towards Islam. interestingly enough were the posters in the thread about the sexual acts performed in a church and the frank admission that yeah they'd do in a church because the worst they're going to get is someone shaking their stick, whereas the other bunch could feasibly kill you.

Which brings me back to your quote where you are talking about your anecdotal experience working with two muslim girls in a professional environment (definitely an outlier compared to most islamic populations in europe...)

You mention they are free to do what they want. That's PRECISELY because they live in a stable democracy. If the numbers increase so rapidly, they might well find themselves actually having to toe the line a bit more. If they're unlucky enough to grow up in the proposed mosque environments with schools attached then they might never have a choice. As previously stated myself, my career and my eventful life thus far has allowed me to live in a variety of places with a whole number of different cultures. And my anecdotal evidence is that where the population reaches a certain amount, the tolerance and integration basically disappears.

Its all alt right

Deleted User wrote: »

My understanding of people's fear of Muslim immigrants is the classic groups that are in other European countries who don't integrate in the slightest, and thus wouldn't be reading an Irish forum in English.

Do we have some posters here representing the Muslims who have arrived in Ireland and have taken on our culture? There should be a couple knocking around in this thread, since they're the subject matter of the conversation.


And anyways, I don't see why they'd be offended at all. If they've integrated into our culture to the point of reading this, then there'd surely be a lot of agreement regarding the Muslims who don't integrate.

Good point. It is sort of selling them short in a way. Due to what has happened the last few years in Europe I think they themselves can reason why people might be wary of new cultures arriving at this time.

Greyling

Greyling wrote: »

If you link that lads stats you wear your opinion on your sleeve. I can respect that at least.

In my opinion you are complete scum for doing it but free speech and that.

What in the world.

You might appear less insane if you talked about the statistics instead of calling someone complete scum for posting them.

Greyling

Its all alt right wrote: »

Good point. It is sort of selling them short in a way. Due to what has happened the last few years in Europe I think they themselves can reason why people might be wary of new cultures arriving at this time.

Yeah, datz rite pepefrogok. I thought you went quiet when the incel did a number in canada. Now that you're back you should moderate you're ****e.

10000maniacs

riffmongous wrote: »

Afghanistan isn't part of the Arab world.. and India isn't part of the 'West' for whatever that is worth.. and when you say 'these countries' aren't you just really referring to actual warzones? Where you know thousands of the locals also die each year in addition to the unfortunate westerners.

I never said either were. However there is a sizable percentage of the Afghanistan population whom claim to be descendents of the prophet Muhammad and so they can be considered Arab. If you want to split hairs, I can too.

Greyling

Greyling wrote: »

Yeah, datz rite pepefrogok. I thought you went quiet when the incel did a number in canada. Now that you're back you should moderate you're ****e.

Join Date: Apr 2018

How do you know Pepe so well in such a short amount of time?

Maybe it's time to lay off the whiskey.

Gravelly

Greyling wrote: »

https://m.ranker.com/list/famous-kidnapping-victims/ranker-news

OMG AHHH!

Greyling wrote: »

If you're not a British spy here's one of many

https://news.vice.com/article/body-of-ira-kidnapping-victim-brendan-megraw-found-after-36-years

Greyling wrote: »

I do think you're a brit though. And you should apologise.

Greyling wrote: »

If you link that lads stats you wear your opinion on your sleeve. I can respect that at least.

In my opinion you are complete scum for doing it but free speech and that.

Greyling wrote: »

Yeah, datz rite pepefrogok. I thought you went quiet when the incel did a number in canada. Now that you're back you should moderate you're ****e.

Somebody is hitting the sauce hard tonight.

Greyling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Join Date: Apr 2018

How do you know Pepe so well in such a short amount of time?

Maybe it's time to lay off the whiskey.

I'm a rereg. I've been here for ages

Greyling

Greyling wrote: »

I'm a rereg. I've been here for ages

I know.

And what about Gravelly and me thinking you're absolutely hammered right now? Any truth to it?

Greyling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know.

And what about Gravelly and me thinking you're absolutely hammered right now? Any truth to it?

I couldn't be. I'm smack bang in the middle of the Middle East.

10000maniacs

Greyling wrote: »

I couldn't be. I'm smack bang in the middle of the Middle East.

The middle east of Finglas I reckon.

Greyling

10000maniacs wrote: »

The middle east of Finglas I reckon.

Hazelcroft? Are you my son?

ArthurDayne

Experience_day wrote: »

I'm either going blind and missed your reply or you didn't reply to the point made before...

Which ties in with what you are talking about above...

Islam will not be subject to the same intellectual barrage that Christianity has. Being able to dissect aspects of Christianity isn't new, being able to theologise and philosophise almost makes up Christian culture and the society we have today (from the renaissance onwards..)

People cannot and will not do the same towards Islam. interestingly enough were the posters in the thread about the sexual acts performed in a church and the frank admission that yeah they'd do in a church because the worst they're going to get is someone shaking their stick, whereas the other bunch could feasibly kill you.

Which brings me back to your quote where you are talking about your anecdotal experience working with two muslim girls in a professional environment (definitely an outlier compared to most islamic populations in europe...)

You mention they are free to do what they want. That's PRECISELY because they live in a stable democracy. If the numbers increase so rapidly, they might well find themselves actually having to toe the line a bit more. If they're unlucky enough to grow up in the proposed mosque environments with schools attached then they might never have a choice. As previously stated myself, my career and my eventful life thus far has allowed me to live in a variety of places with a whole number of different cultures. And my anecdotal evidence is that where the population reaches a certain amount, the tolerance and integration basically disappears.

To the point in bold -- you are actually making my point for me. I have said this a thousand times to people I have debated with on this topic: we do not hear a lot from liberal Muslims precisely because their countries suppress liberal ideas. This is the whole point! Liberal Muslims operate in a much tougher environment than liberal Christians have had to do in the West for quite some time. Take the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) -- a group of Muslim women who advocate greater liberty for females in the Muslim world. There are other groups like them.

The belief that Muslims are somehow less capable of critical thought against their religion than Christians is simply untrue. They are absolutely capable but unfortunately many of their countries suppress that capability. Nonetheless, there are variations in, say, LGBT rights in Muslim countries. Albania, Tunisia and Turkey have each seen the early proposals for the legalisation of gay marriage (which Ireland only legalised in 2015 remember). While homosexual activity will land you a death penalty in Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria and host of other countries, same-sex intercourse is legal in : Albania, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Niger, Tajikistan, Turkey and Indonesia. Indeed, the majority Muslim countries of Tajikistan and Chad have banned the burkha.

So, while it would be fanciful to say that above is a demonstration of Muslim 'liberalism', it does suggest that there exists diversity of thought in Islamic countries towards their interpretation of Islam and how that translates into womens' and gay peoples' rights and security.

And how are those girls in my office 'outliers'? In what way? Evidence would show that the majority of Muslim women in Europe do not wear a burkha (Link to article which in turn links to studies: http://theconversation.com/so-few-muslim-women-wear-the-burqa-in-europe-that-banning-it-is-a-waste-of-time-82957). What other elements to my female Muslim colleagues makes them 'outliers'?

Its all alt right

Greyling wrote: »

Yeah, datz rite pepefrogok. I thought you went quiet when the incel did a number in canada. Now that you're back you should moderate you're ****e.

It's obvious you are trying to get this thread closed. I hope it remains as it will serve as a good reference going forward in how Islam pans out in Ireland be it for good, bad or indifferent.

In regards to the other thing. I Actually see what you're banging on about now. You're right, haven't posted in a while. Seen the pepefrog user while trawling back for the the multiquotes. Sorry, different guy. Been reading this thread a while and just find your posting style in the discussion a bit on the angry side throughout. Maybe some of that moderation for yourself?

Greyling wrote: »

Because Americans are inherently thick and we shouldn't listen to them.

Greyling wrote: »

He's too busy hysterically wetting his pants with the rest of the simpletons to explain anything.

Greyling wrote: »

**** all with the rest with the rest of the dullards.

Greyling wrote: »

Stop talking bollox.

Greyling wrote: »

Your can comes in a glass? Sounds mad. Almost as mad as the rest of the ****e you're talking.

Greyling wrote: »

In my opinion you are complete scum for doing it but free speech and that.

A Pint of Goo

Greyling wrote: »

If you link that lads stats you wear your opinion on your sleeve. I can respect that at least.

In my opinion you are complete scum for doing it but free speech and that.

Yeah we're scum for wondering why Sweden covers up it's rape stats. Good one.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

What other elements to my female Muslim colleagues makes them 'outliers'?

One of them drinking, and the other still be friends with her, so they're the equivalent of lapsed Catholics who doesn't give a toss, which is arguably the best type of any religious person.

It's less common in Islam, however, so I'd say it's safe to say a Muslim woman drinking alcohol is an outlier.

ArthurDayne

Deleted User wrote: »

One of them drinking, and the other still be friends with her, so they're the equivalent of lapsed Catholics who doesn't give a toss, which is arguably the best type of any religious person.

It's less common in Islam, however, so I'd say it's safe to say a Muslim woman drinking alcohol is an outlier.

What are you basing this 'safe to say' on?

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

What are you basing this 'safe to say' on?

Uh, Islam.?

I'm feeling a bit lost here.. It's like you're suggesting that Muslim women drinking alcohol is somewhat common.