Is Islam right for Ireland?

Scotty #

I was going to get involved in this debate but then I saw the comment below and thought what's the point? When you're dealing with this kind of ignorance you're really just pissing against the wind.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Thats some serious milage on foot [...] but they can make it across oceans to Europe?? Thats a serious fairytale.

Weldoninhio, do you not remember the people in their thousands traveling from war torn Syria through Turkey, Greece, up to Hungary, then through Austria and into Germany and beyond in recent years?? THEY WALKED IT!! What "oceans" are you talking about??

eeguy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Thats some serious milage on foot. And their only option in the Muslim world are deserts, but they can make it across oceans to Europe?? Thats a serious fairytale.

Yes and many die trying.

There's some serious lack of compassion in this country. The west has continually f*cked up Muslim countries for the last 200 years, and especially in the last 30. From Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2, the Arab Spring, Libya, Syria and many more occassions when the West felt it was in their interest to intervene with bombs and bullets.

Now these countries are such sh*tholes that people are willing to risk the lives of themselves and their families to live in a tent under a bridge in Europe.

And we have the audacity to tell them to go elsewhere.

garbo speaks

Islam is simply not compatible with western values.

Grayson

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why is it Europe's responsibility to fund anything of the sort?

Some people might argue that it's as human beings we have an ethical obligation to do what we can. Except for egoism I can't think of an ethical framework that would say we don't.
It doesn't matter what anyone else doesn't do, what matters is what we do.

In fact I'd like to see any ethical argument that says it's wrong to help people.

Will I Am Not

Zebra3 wrote: »

Way to avoid condemning the violence and women hating attitude of Christianity.

Sorry to disappoint you but I’m not a spokesperson for the church.

garbo speaks

garbo speaks wrote: »

Islam is simply not compatible with western values.

the country I live in proves otherwise

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

Why? You might as well link to some randomer on here.

Yeah a "randomer" who has done his research and is spot on on this topic.

Pepefrogok

DanDan6592 wrote: »

We should all be terrified f that change is going to potentially undue all the hard won rights for minorities and women over the last number of years.

Certain "progressives" don't really care about that, it's a game to them and they just want to win and see the rights nose rubbed in diversity, that's why tony Blair and his Labour party opened the gates.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.

The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.

He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".

garbo speaks

Zebra3 wrote: »

Way to avoid condemning the violence and women hating attitude of Christianity.

Christians don't keep their women as virtual prisoners in the home. Christians don't force their women to go out covered from head to toe in black, and in the company of a male. Christians don't have a form of law that stones, brutalizes and dismembers those who commit the 'crimes' of adultery and homosexuality. Christians are not taught to believe that those who do not believe in God are apostates and should be killed. Christians are not forced to live in medieval squalor.

To compare Christianity to Islam is nonsensical.

Summer In the City

garbo speaks wrote: »

Christians don't keep their women as virtual prisoners in the home. Christians don't force their women to go out covered from head to toe in black, and in the company of a male. Christians don't have a form of law that stones, brutalizes and dismembers those who commit the 'crimes' of adultery and homosexuality. Christians are not taught to believe that those who do not believe in God are apostates and should be killed. Christians are not forced to live in medieval squalor.

To compare Christianity to Islam is nonsensical.

None of that happens where I live.

You seem to think all Muslims are from Saudi. They're not.

garbo speaks

Summer In the City wrote: »

None of that happens where I live.

You seem to think all Muslims are from Saudi. They're not.

The vast majority of the Muslim world live in regions and subscribe to the beliefs I listed.

Hector Savage

TheManTheMyth wrote: »

What's sad is that those kids aren't even radical Muslims. They're moderate at the most.

Exactly, my brother is a teacher in Brussels, he had to shut up and put up when they were all celebrating after the Paris attacks.

tick tick tick tick ...

Merkel doesn't give a ****, she doesn't have any investment in the future - 0 kids.

weldoninhio

Scotty # wrote: »

I was going to get involved in this debate but then I saw the comment below and thought what's the point? When you're dealing with this kind of ignorance you're really just pissing against the wind.



Weldoninhio, do you not remember the people in their thousands traveling from war torn Syria through Turkey, Greece, up to Hungary, then through Austria and into Germany and beyond in recent years?? THEY WALKED IT!! What "oceans" are you talking about??

Did you see the post I was responding to?? Europe was their only option apparently. Fairytale.

Homs to Berlin 3346kms,
Homs to Riyadh 2034kms,
Homs to Medina 2302kms,
Homs to Ammam 375kms.


You also may have missed it, but the Irish navy spent quite a lot of time fishing these "refugees" out of the Med. Perhaps they thought they could walk on water, eh??

garbo speaks

Hector Savage wrote: »

Exactly, my brother is a teacher in Brussels, he had to shut up and put up when they were all celebrating after the Paris attacks.

Jesus. And I bet if he said something, he would be the 'racist'.:rolleyes:

Summer In the City

garbo speaks wrote: »

The vast majority of the Muslim world live in regions and subscribe to the beliefs I listed.

No they don't. Hardly any women cover up where I live. They also don't need to be escorted when out, they work and drive. Nobody gets stoned, for better or worse.

garbo speaks

Summer In the City wrote: »

No they don't. Hardly any women cover up where I live. They also don't need to be escorted when out, they work and drive.

Where you live, is not representative of the majority of the Muslim world.

Summer In the City

weldoninhio wrote: »

Did you see the post I was responding to?? Europe was their only option apparently. Fairytale.

Homs to Berlin 3346kms,
Homs to Riyadh 2034kms,
Homs to Medina 2302kms,
Homs to Ammam 375kms.


You also may have missed it, but the Irish navy spent quite a lot of time fishing these "refugees" out of the Med. Perhaps they thought they could walk on water, eh??

What makes you think all the refugees went to Europe? Jordan has lots of refugees from Syria and Palestine. Almost a 3rd of the Jordanian population are refugees or migrants.

eeguy

eeguy wrote: »

Yes and many die trying.

There's some serious lack of compassion in this country. The west has continually f*cked up Muslim countries for the last 200 years, and especially in the last 30. From Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2, the Arab Spring, Libya, Syria and many more occassions when the West felt it was in their interest to intervene with bombs and bullets.

There are a lot more countries in the west than the primary military nations. And TBH while I seriously dislike the involvement of western governments in the M.East, you're applying military operations in particular regions as justification for all immigration/refugee status.

As for compassion, I'd be perfectly happy with a tax added on to us, to provide funding for settlement and help to them outside of Europe. The few camps that were implemented were poorly researched, poorly administered, and poorly funded. Doesn't mean that we should throw that answer out the window.

Now these countries are such sh*tholes that people are willing to risk the lives of themselves and their families to live in a tent under a bridge in Europe.

Except that there are many immigrants coming from countries that haven't been touched by Western nations, and have fallen apart due to the inherent corruption of their cultures, the civil wars, the religious wars, etc. But even with those countries affected by Western countries, Ireland wasn't directly involved.

And we have the audacity to tell them to go elsewhere.

Yes we do. Or rather I do. Not all of them, mind. Those that meet the practical immigration requirements, by having education and skills we need are fully welcome to come settle in the west, living under western culture, learning the host country's language and not rocking the boat.

Compassion is all very well and good, but I've noticed that people in the west are often more compassionate about foreigners than they are about our own people. Settle the problems within our own society first, and then consider how to help those outside.

I find the attitude to be short-sighted. Most western countries while recovering from the economic crash are still a fair bit away from pre-crash stability. Fact is, our economic models are rather fragile these days. The EU itself is under scrutiny due to Brexit, and other issues. Social problems with our own cultures are on the rise. The Welfare state system is a massive drain with few practical ideas of how to resolve it. We are seeing the rise of automation in workplaces with the knowledge that sooner or later it will impact on many persons employment. etc etc. And best of all, we already have a decent population of immigrants from recent years, and little idea of how to settle them effectively. But, hey, lets bring more in before we figure out how to solve the problems with the ones we already have. There really are so many things wrong, or going bad at the moment.

But, we should allow in people who don't know the language (and often don't learn it), don't have employable skills for Europe, barely any education, and provide incredibly expensive government led support for them although that support still isn't enough. And won't ever be. Still, damn expensive, but we can find plenty of excuses for that.

Compassion? Hmm... I still believe keeping them out until we fix our own problems is probably far more compassionate in the long run. Provide camps in other neighboring countries, provide education and other services to those in need, but ultimately prepare them to return to their original country with the aim of improving it.... or giving them the skills/education (while in the camps) to gain a visa to another country.

I'm not against immigration or allowing refugees into Europe. I'd just like us to fix our own existing problems first, and be in a real position to help. Right now, we're just bringing them in and settling them up in a broken system.

weldoninhio

Summer In the City wrote: »

What makes you think all the refugees went to Europe? Jordan has lots of refugees from Syria and Palestine. Almost a 3rd of the Jordanian population are refugees or migrants.

Nowhere have I stated or inferred that ALL refugees went to Europe. Hundreds of thousands have thought.

Summer In the City

garbo speaks wrote: »

Where you live, is not representative of the majority of the Muslim world.

Its a smack bang in the Middle East so I'll take it as more representative than your small world view. Again, you think Saudi is the whole Middle East. Its not.

10000maniacs

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ironic.

There’s morons on here banging on about Sharia Law in Ireland and to dodge dealing with the crimes of Christianity you claim I’m endulging in hyperbole.

Let’s arrest those RC officials who helped paedo priests avoid detection. Let’s end tax breaks for all religions.

Then we’ll deal with the big, bad muzza threat. :rolleyes:

Is it possible for you to post something without insulting someone?
Anyway those priests and nuns you talk about are mostly dead or very old. So it is hyperbole.
In Ireland in the last century you weren't whipped for having an affair or beheaded for homosexual acts.
It was all about standing in society. Admittedly, it was wrong and crazy, but it is erroneous to lump 60 year Irish church attitudes and behavior as a counter claim against peoples current concerns about Islam.

Summer In the City

weldoninhio wrote: »

Nowhere have I stated or inferred that ALL refugees went to Europe. Hundreds of thousands have thought.

And millions went to Jordan, do you think they should have had to take all of them?

eeguy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are a lot more countries in the west than the primary military nations. And TBH while I seriously dislike the involvement of western governments in the M.East, you're applying military operations in particular regions as justification for all immigration/refugee status.
.

There is so much wrong with your "I'm alright jack" argument I'm not even going to bother.
Sort out our own problems first. Ffs, our problems have and will never be solved. There will always be new problems and new inequality. . I can't believe you wasted your life writing that short-sighted bigoted whataboutery.

Harika

garbo speaks wrote: »

Where you live, is not representative of the majority of the Muslim world.

Indeed, representative for the Muslim World is what we get on our Facebook and Twitterstreams!

Irish Praetorian

Perhaps instead of lobbing personal experience and heresay at one another, we should concern ourselves with the polling data?

This is the most recent Pew study I can find, although the latter is perhaps more comprehensive.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

garbo speaks

Summer In the City wrote: »

Its a smack bang in the Middle East so I'll take it as more representative than your small world view. Again, you think Saudi is the whole Middle East. Its not.

You're welcome to stay there mate

garbo speaks

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Perhaps instead of lobbing personal experience and heresay at one another, we should concern ourselves with the polling data?

This is the most recent Pew study I can find, although the latter is perhaps more comprehensive.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Sssh!! You can't post facts on here!

eeguy

eeguy wrote: »

There is so much wrong with your "I'm alright jack" argument I'm not even going to bother.
Sort out our own problems first. Ffs, our problems have and will never be solved. There will always be new problems and new inequality. . I can't believe you wasted your life writing that short-sighted bigoted whataboutery.

Rather simplistic and limited objection. But TBH I can't say I'm too surprised.

We'll always have new problems. Of course, we will... Obviously. However, we can settle the major problems facing Europe before increasing the strain. Settle the question of the EU. Settle our economies and increase the wealth of Europe once more. Reduce the social & political instability currently sweeping Europe. Decide on a realistic and effective system to settle our existing immigrant population.

As for bigoted... It's obvious anyone that doesn't agree with your selfless attitude is a bigot... You might want to consider what the word really means.

Scotty #

weldoninhio wrote: »

Perhaps they thought they could walk on water, eh??

or... more likely, they thought better to die trying to find a better life than die staying put?

eeguy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rather simplistic and limited objection. But TBH I can't say I'm too surprised.

We'll always have new problems. Of course, we will... Obviously. However, we can settle the major problems facing Europe before increasing the strain. Settle the question of the EU. Settle our economies and increase the wealth of Europe once more. Reduce the social & political instability currently sweeping Europe. Decide on a realistic and effective system to settle our existing immigrant population.

As for bigoted... It's obvious anyone that doesn't agree with your selfless attitude is a bigot... You might want to consider what the word really means.

Nope. Europe always has and always will have problems. There will always be major problems as major is relative. When was the last time an economy of any country was "settled"?

Social and political instability is a result of the West actions against the middle East and won't go away while there are millions on the border trying to get in.

Kicking the can down the road is not a viable solution.

donegaLroad

Ireland is a moderate country. Islam to me, does not appear to be a moderate religion.

Ireland is just after loosening the shackles of one oppressive regime. Why would we want bring a more oppressive one upon ourselves.

A religion free Ireland is the best way forward.

Captain Obvious

DanDan6592 wrote: »

So you mean when it's too late. Fantastic. The kick the can down the road mentality.

Not even remotely what I posted.

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

Ireland is a moderate country. Islam to me, does not appear to be a moderate religion.

Ireland is just after loosening the shackles of one oppressive regime. Why would we want bring a more oppressive one upon ourselves.

A religion free Ireland is the best way forward.

so, no-one in Ireland should be free to practise their religion?
my mam will be devasted........

donegaLroad

bubblypop wrote: »

so, no-one in Ireland should be free to practise their religion?
my mam will be devasted........

I didn't say that... what I meant is that there should be a seperation between church and state.

Hector Savage

jmayo wrote: »

Eh wasn't Humprhys the guy that had the video of the Halawa's up on stage at a muslim brotherhood protest ?
The video that disappeared elsewhere and proved embarrassing because it was the truth about what they were up to.

Yes and he has never been sued by the Halawas - and you can bet your ass they would have had lawyers all over it .

Can't sue someone for telling the truth.

weldoninhio

Scotty # wrote: »

or... more likely, they thought better to die trying to find a better life than die staying put?

Strange how it was the majority of single, military aged men that thought this. The women and children must be a lot more resilient than them. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Harika

weldoninhio wrote: »

Strange how it was the majority of single, military aged men that thought this. The women and children must be a lot more resilient than them. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Men go first to earn the money to bring the rest of their family. What makes sense as they will have it easiest to find work and send the money back.

eeguy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Strange how it was the majority of single, military aged men that thought this. The women and children must be a lot more resilient than them. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Maybe because women and children and more likely to be washed up on a beach or kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery or find it harder to scale the razor wire fences, survive the rubber bullets, tear gas and living in a container. Once you receive asylum in the EU you can extend it to your immediate family so it makes sense for a family to send a young man no?

weldoninhio

Harika wrote: »

Men go first to earn the money to bring the rest of their family. What makes sense as they will have it easiest to find work and send the money back.

Yes, makes complete sense to leave the women and children in a war-zone for an indeterminable amount of time while you walk 3500kms to Europe.

Harika

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, makes complete sense to leave the women and children in a war-zone for an indeterminable amount of time while you walk 3500kms to Europe.

What is the alternative?

eeguy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, makes complete sense to leave the women and children in a war-zone for an indeterminable amount of time while you walk 3500kms to Europe.

Ignorance must be bliss.

weldoninhio

Harika wrote: »

What is the alternative?

Move to a safe area closer to home, where all of the family can go. You do realise Syria is a huge country and the whole lot wasn't at war?? 17.9 million stayed out of 24.5 million at the start of the war.

Maybe they are all women and children, waiting by the phone and letter box waiting for word to head over to Europe.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Summer In the City wrote: »

No they don't. Hardly any women cover up where I live. They also don't need to be escorted when out, they work and drive. Nobody gets stoned, for better or worse.

Yes, there are some (relatively speaking) liberal majority Muslim countries. Iraq, Syria, Iran to an extent. The majority are not, however.

Harika

weldoninhio wrote: »

Move to a safe area closer to home, where all of the family can go. You do realise Syria is a huge country and the whole lot wasn't at war?? 17.9 million stayed out of 24.5 million at the start of the war.

Maybe they are all women and children, waiting by the phone and letter box waiting for word to head over to Europe.

The people that went in the 2015 wave were coming from safe camps but after three years the food became less and less, thanks to EU countries cutting their help, and no chance of building a future.

masculinist

TheManTheMyth wrote: »

There have been countless stories of Muslim immigrants degrading women and gay people all across Europe and generally not integrating into the countries that they have moved to, personally i was very pro migrant about a year (maybe a year and a half) ago but have completely 180'd on the topic and now have a serious feeling of discomfort when i think about Islam spreading to Ireland. Am i the only person who feels like we have enough problems without adding this new religion into the mix? the idea that governments want to change the views of their own people rather than address the source of the issue (in my eyes Islam and the less liberal nations from which these groups originate)scares me because it sends us back to the times of keeping everything silent, it will only lead to another catholic church situation where eventually their atrocities all come to light at once.

Dont forget the massive rise in European Anti-Semitism and the "Walk a Jew home day" they had in Sweden.
Jews never did me or any of my ancestors any harm. I dont want to import some other cultures faction fighting and race hate. Thats not "cultural enrichment". And the rise in government authoritarianism in European countries to keep a lid on discussion of such topics , blasphemy laws and the eradication of the renaissance values of free speech is definitely not worth it. Not my circus . Not my monkeys.
Can you imagine women only carriages on the trains in Ireland ? Or like Germany where feminists are silent while women are told that what they wear makes them at fault for their sexual assaults ? Islam needs to reform itself before it should be allowed anywhere near us. Foreign funding of Mosques from sources which persecute Christians and other religions should be banned. Most of these mosques can be traced back to Saudi Arabia and their extremist Wahhabism. Unless its locally raised money then it represents interference of a foreign government in our affairs. Islam is not only a religion but also a political system.
At this moment in time, Varadkar and Dublin City Council wishes to dismantle our neutrality. They can get stuffed. We should stay out of someone elses circus. We should neither be a part of bombing foreigners or submitting to them. We respect them and they respect us . We should be an independent neutral trading nation. The jumped up dictators who rule over us are totally corrupt and dont have the Irish nations best interests at heart.

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

I didn't say that... what I meant is that there should be a seperation between church and state.

agreed.
which is why it shouldn't matter what religion anyone is coming into the country

Summer In the City

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes, there are some (relatively speaking) liberal majority Muslim countries. Iraq, Syria, Iran to an extent. The majority are not, however.

You can add Jordan, the Lebanon, Turkey and it starts looking like a majority to me.

Summer In the City

Summer In the City wrote: »

You can add Jordan, the Lebanon, Turkey and it starts looking like a majority to me.

and Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo.

weldoninhio

bubblypop wrote: »

I dont believe thats true, there are many different customs, languages and cultures in the over 50 different muslim countries of the world.

bubblypop wrote: »

and Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo.

And 9 is a majority?? :rolleyes: Good maths.

Odhinn

weldoninhio wrote: »

Strange how all these muslim "refugees" aren't going to all these perfectly reasonable muslim countries, rather than flooding Europe.

Europe isn't being flooded.

Why don't you look up how many refugees are in muslim states, like Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey?