Is Islam right for Ireland?

BarryD2

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

A secular Democratic country is right for Ireland and every country.

Agreed. But will Islam as a cultural movement/ religion accept a secular Democratic country? And the laws as decided by the people of that country?

That I suspect is at the root of the unease. And with reasonable reason.

Roger Hassenforder

BarryD2 wrote: »

Agreed. But will Islam as a cultural movement/ religion accept a secular Democratic country? And the laws as decided by the people of that country?

That I suspect is at the root of the unease. And with reasonable reason.

Can it?

Hector Savage

DeusVolt wrote: »

Islam is here and is going nowhere whether you like it or not. Muslims tend to have big families and there will be an increasing number of Irish muslims long into the future. Islam is a part of Ireland as much as catholicism is.

You are going to have to learn to be tolerant and accept Islam for the beautiful religion that it is.

Yes lets be tolerant of the intolerant.

Tolerance is a two way street.

Terrlock

Islam will eventually become the mainstream religion of ireland along with the rest of Europe. With the mass falling away from Christianity it is unavoidable.

_Kaiser_

DeusVolt wrote: »

Islam is here and is going nowhere whether you like it or not. Muslims tend to have big families and there will be an increasing number of Irish muslims long into the future. Islam is a part of Ireland as much as catholicism is.

You are going to have to learn to be tolerant and accept Islam for the beautiful religion that it is.

10/10 for virtue-signalling I suppose...

I/we don't have to accept anything. Ireland is a country that in many ways was much like a theocracy in the last century - with ordinary people abused, robbed, and shamed by the Catholic Church for decades, who held social progress back but which was given state support to do this.
We're still, in 2018, feeling the lingering effects of this influence in our education system and there's still regular reports in the media of those who suffered at the hands of the Church but who have received no justice or answers.

We absolutely do NOT have to be tolerant and accepting of another regressive religion that would try to drag the social and democratic progress this country has made back centuries.
I accept that the extremists make up a minority, but I also don't care to be honest. This is OUR country and thus OUR rules and social norms apply, and while anyone is welcome to come here (legally!), they come here with the expectation to adapt to our way of doing things.

This nonsense idea that Europe (and Ireland) must be the ones to adapt and accommodate this religion and culture has to stop. It has no place in a modern, secular Western society and it's time to stop allowing ourselves to be brow-beaten by social media crusading and people like Vardakar and his Government (although the other parties are no better) who are more concerned with playing the good boys of Europe (in the hopes of a lucrative post-TD retirement plan) than doing what's right for (the future of) this country and it's citizens.

Rory28

_Kaiser_ with a name like DeusVolt I dont think he means what he said. A bit of tongue in cheek so to speak.

_Kaiser_

Rory28 wrote: »

_Kaiser_ with a name like DeusVolt I dont think he means what he said. A bit of tongue in cheek so to speak.

If so, then apologies to DuesVolt as it's hard to fathom why there ARE posters here advocating for exactly that .. so in that case, it still applies to those others here who ARE openly taking that line.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I accept that the extremists make up a minority, but I also don't care to be honest. This is OUR country and thus OUR rules and social norms apply, and while anyone is welcome to come here (legally!), they come here with the expectation to adapt to our way of doing things.

Which extremists? The violent extremists? Sure, they're a minority compared to the whole.

However, if we consider the beliefs of Muslims coming into Europe/Ireland, many of them hold extreme views in relation to Western cultural values. The issue isn't with the violent extremists. They're a sideshow to the real problems of Islamic peoples settling in Europe. The real issue is all those young people who hold up their own system of culture as being superior to western culture, and will seek its' establishment here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The immigrants coming into Europe are not the same as those forty or fifty years ago. They're (for the most part) not seeking to embrace western culture as a better alternative to their own country. Instead immigrants are coming for other reasons such as economic, or the lack of stability/safety in their own country. They're not coming here believing that the Islamic model of governing or culture is unfair or wrong... which means at some point, they're going to want the same culture to become common here. Initially for them, but Islam doesn't tend to tolerate other cultures different than it for very long... especially when it's a culture that actually challenges many of the core traditions of Islam.

This nonsense idea that Europe (and Ireland) must be the ones to adapt and accommodate this religion and culture has to stop.

I agree with you... The idea that western countries need to accommodate Islamic peoples is ridiculous, and is ultimately poison. Just about every country outside of Europe has limitations and requirements about foreigners living within their borders, and how foreign culture will be integrated (or ignored). This demand for western nations to pander to people who do not want to live under our cultural norms is dangerous.

It has no place in a modern, secular Western society and it's time to stop allowing ourselves to be brow-beaten by social media crusading and people like Vardakar and his Government (although the other parties are no better) who are more concerned with playing the good boys of Europe (in the hopes of a lucrative post-TD retirement plan) than doing what's right for (the future of) this country and it's citizens.

Western politics has, for the last few decades. focused on short-term gains. There is very little consideration to what will happen after the next election. TBH, while I've never been very political (the corruption of Irish politics turned me off early in life), the behavior of governments within the last two decades is pretty dismal for researching/analysing/considering the effects of decisions on the future, simply content to pass responsibility and blame on to other governments.

Omackeral

Again, an open invitation to anyone who voted YES in the poll to take the stand. I'd love to hear from someone who can articulately put across why Islam is right for Ireland. Don't be shy, stand behind your convictions. Anyone?

WinnyThePoo

Omackeral wrote: »

Again, an open invitation to anyone who voted YES in the poll to take the stand. I'd love to hear from someone who can articulately put across why Islam is right for Ireland. Don't be shy, stand behind your convictions. Anyone?

In what context? It's pretty open reaching question.

Is Islam right for Ireland?

We already have Muslims living in Ireland. They practice their religion here already. They where here before the immigrant crisis.

Does anyone want any sort of religious state here again? No. Doesn't mean a minority of people can't practice their religion as long as it doesn't trouble others in accordance with our laws.

Omackeral

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

In what context? It's pretty open reaching question.

In the context that if you voted YES in the poll, I'd like to know why. 10% of people did. It's them I'd like to hear from. Are you one of the 10%? If you are, the floor is yours.

WinnyThePoo

Omackeral wrote: »

In the context that if you voted YES in the poll, I'd like to know why. 10% of people did. It's them I'd like to hear from. Are you one of the 10%? If you are, the floor is yours.

Didn't vote. The question is too wide reaching.

Omackeral

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Didn't vote. The question is too wide reaching.

Then my invitation doesn't apply to you. I'm asking anyone who did vote 'yes' to give a commentary on why they did so.

http://www.thejournal.ie/man-jailed-funding-islamic-state-4111114-Jul2018/

A MAN WHO admitted sending funds to Islamic State was in contact with “medium to high level” operatives in the international terrorist group, and tried to travel to Syria to fight in the ongoing war, has been jailed for two and a half years.

In the first prosecution of its kind in this country, 26-year-old Hassan Bal from Waterford admitted to unlawfully transferring €400 for use by Isis and attempting to collect money for the group.

His activities were detected following a newspaper sting and an investigation by a number of police forces.

Maybe Guatanamo Bay wasn`t such a bad idea in retrospect, people like this should be punished with deportation to Iraq where they will string them up, that or apologise to the Americans and see about Gitmo

I`m actually serious which is the truly mad part, how things have changed where we could take the high ground on things like Guantanamo Bay

seachto7

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/man-jailed-funding-islamic-state-4111114-Jul2018/



Maybe Guatanamo Bay wasn`t such a bad idea in retrospect, people like this should be punished with deportation to Iraq where they will string them up, that or apologise to the Americans and see about Gitmo

I`m actually serious which is the truly mad part, how things have changed where we could take the high ground on things like Guantanamo Bay

He'll get out in 2.5 years and really will have nothing to lose by going to full hog. He should be deported the day of release.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I`m actually serious which is the truly mad part, how things have changed where we could take the high ground on things like Guantanamo Bay

I'm not. Guantanamo Bay was/is evil. The lack of supervision, the juggling of laws, the kidnapping of people without evidence, and the types of torture involved was unworthy of any western nation. It was taking a leaf out of the book used by crackpot dictators, and M.Eastern nations.

Don't get me wrong... I am "all for" using more effective ways to combat terrorism, but Guantanamo Bay was not the way to do it. There are far better ways already suggested in military & intelligence briefs from dozens of countries worldwide.

Having Guantanamo Bay operating has simply given the terrorist groups perfect propaganda to show the hypocrisy of democratic nations. (and yes, we're all going to be lumped together for that)

Deport him? Go ahead. No objection there.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/man-jailed-funding-islamic-state-4111114-Jul2018/



Maybe Guatanamo Bay wasn`t such a bad idea in retrospect

So OK with internment yes?
Don't believe I'm due process? Happy to see people spending years in Guantanamo bay or other places without a fair & just trial?

jmayo

bubblypop wrote: »

So OK with internment yes?
Don't believe I'm due process? Happy to see people spending years in Guantanamo bay or other places without a fair & just trial?

And you wonder why some of us are dubious about muslims coming to Ireland. :rolleyes:

BTW he got a lot fairer trial than that given by the ones he supported and wanted to join.

Also who paid for his brief?
Who paid for his expert witness Daniel Koelher of the German Institute of Radicalisation and Deradicalisation Studies, the expert in Islamic radicalisation and de-radicalisaton ?

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

And you wonder why some of us are dubious about muslims coming to Ireland. :rolleyes:

BTW he got a lot fairer trial than that given by the ones he supported and wanted to join.

Also who paid for his brief?
Who paid for his expert witness Daniel Koelher of the German Institute of Radicalisation and Deradicalisation Studies, the expert in Islamic radicalisation and de-radicalisaton ?

I was replying to a poster who posted about guatanemo bay.
I have no idea about his legal fees, but o guess if he is low income then he qualified for legal aid.
I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial don't you? A fair trial involves defence. He is an Irish citizen, entitled to a defence.

So, I think it's great that a terrorist or wannabe terrorist got caught & convicted.
The system is working

Brae100

bubblypop wrote: »

I was replying to a poster who posted about guatanemo bay.
I have no idea about his legal fees, but o guess if he is low income then he qualified for legal aid.
I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial don't you? A fair trial involves defence. He is an Irish citizen, entitled to a defence.

So, I think it's great that a terrorist or wannabe terrorist got caught & convicted.
The system is working

The system is not working. He was only caught as a result of a Daily Mail investigation. We haven't even got any Gardai who can speak Arabic.

Brae100

Brae100 wrote: »

The system is not working. He was only caught as a result of a Daily Mail investigation. We haven't even got any Gardai who can speak Arabic.

That's what police forces do, share information

K.Flyer

So many have been in denial and tried to shut down those who dared to say that there is a sinister undercurrent amongst some of the muslim community.
These are not tiny minority figures by any stretch of the imagination.
This all ties in well with the opinions of Ali Selim a few years ago.
How much have these percentages changed over the recent years if these were the opinions of those prepared to speak out then?

More than a third (36pc) would prefer Ireland to be ruled under Sharia law,
[...]
More than half of young Muslims (57pc) believe Ireland should become an Islamic State.
[...]
Shia leader Ali Al Saleh, a major figure in the Irish Muslim community, claims jihadi groups are actively recruiting here, according to a report on Primetime investigates last night.

He said Irish passports are turning up in Iraq and that terrorist atrocities are being openly celebrated by radicals in Dublin.

"We need to accept - yes - we have a problem in our community. We cannot deny that there is fundamentalism," he said.

ninja 12

seachto7 wrote: »

He'll get out in 2.5 years and really will have nothing to lose by going to full hog. He should be deported the day of release.

He'll be out earlier than that -

Judge Eugene O'Kelly imposed a four and a half year sentence on Bal but suspended the final two years.
His sentence was backdated to April 2017 when he was first taken into custody .

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/irishman-jailed-for-twoandahalf-years-after-fundraising-for-the-islamic-state-37084498.html

Not only did he send money to help fund IS , he tried to travel to Syria to fight for them as well .

Bal had tried to travel to Syria to fight for the ISIS Caliphate in 2015 but was sent home by the Turkish authorities.

Joke of a sentence for terrorism related offences .


What sort of sentence would he have gotten in France , Belgium or Germany ?

fritzelly

Funny how these mosques never had any idea that someone in their flock had been "radicalized"
Suppose the question should be what do they class as radicalized or following the teachings.

ninja 12

ninja 12 wrote: »

Joke of a sentence for terrorism related offences .

Pretty similar to sentences for membership here.

2 Scoops

fritzelly wrote: »

Funny how these mosques never had any idea that someone in their flock had been "radicalized"
Suppose the question should be what do they class as radicalized or following the teachings.

Exactly, and people are so naive to believe nothing is going on in these Mosques. Channel 4 did undercover documentaries on what was being taught in Mosques a few years back. The one below is a sequel to one they did before showing the same Mosque, and they're still teaching the same hate even after getting exposed and promising to crackdown on extremism. This series caused uproar in the UK at the time. Skip to 2.05 for TL;DR

fritzelly

2 Scoops wrote: »

Exactly, and people are so naive to believe nothing is going on in these Mosques. Channel 4 did undercover documentaries on what was being taught in Mosques a few years back. The one below is a sequel to one they did before showing the same Mosque, and they're still teaching the same hate even after getting exposed and promising to crackdown on extremism. This series caused uproar in the UK at the time. Skip to 2.05 for TL;DR

Pretty sure I've already seen that one - state sponsored schools advocating killing/stoning etc anyone not part of your faith or falls by the wayside

AllForIt

Brae100 wrote: »

We haven't even got any Gardai who can speak Arabic.

Yes and lets keep it that way.

Timberrrrrrrr

AllForIt wrote: »

Yes and lets keep it that way.

Why?

AfterLife

Wibbs wrote: »

In your case I'm picturing young, male, student, or recent one, on the Left end of the scale, with a hint of republicanism(though more the Brits were imperial bastards angle) happy to absorb the white guilt end of that politic when it comes up. .

If you want to play this game, I'm picturing a lad that got half way through the seminary in the late 90's but decided his mums (because you say mum, haha) house in Terenure was too good to leave. Has a a mild interest in Burlesque because fat mots are clever but won't talk to them so is a mens rights activist, sort of, but still hopes he might meet a woman in real life. Amirite?

Brae100

AfterLife wrote: »

If you want to play this game, I'm picturing a lad that got half way through the seminary in the late 90's but decided his mums house in Terenure was too good to leave. Has a a mild interest in Burlesque because fat mots are clever but won't talk to them so is a mens rights activist, sort of, still hopes he might meet a woman in real life. Amirite?

I obviously can't speak for Wibbs, but his description seems truer. Especially as you deemed it necessary to try and counter it. Schoolboy error. Although I would have added in a description of you having a hipster beard and tattoos that you already regret.

AfterLife

Brae100 wrote: »

I obviously can't speak for Wibbs, but his description seems truer. Especially as you deemed it necessary to try and counter it. Schoolboy error. Although I would have added in a description of you having a hipster beard and tattoos that you already regret.

I have tattoos and I am a school boy. Aren't we all?

Did you do your homework I set you last night? What did you think?

Christ, can we move away from discussing AfterLife personal life? Just ignore 'her/him/it/them" and move on.

AfterLife

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Christ, can we move away from discussing AfterLife personal life? Just ignore 'her/him/it/them" and move on.

I'm still waiting for your reply regarding my links from yesterday kid.

AfterLife

AfterLife wrote: »

I'm still waiting for your reply regarding my links from yesterday kid.

Yesterday, 08:41 #2595 :rolleyes:

Brae100

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Christ, can we move away from discussing AfterLife personal life? Just ignore 'her/him/it/them" and move on.

Ah, I don't know. It is interesting to at least know the demographic of the people involved in a largely anonymous debate.

AfterLife

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yesterday, 08:41 #2595 :rolleyes:

I know in that post you didn't address what I said or acknowledge the link but if you click on your posting history you are a hilarious stereotype.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

And you wonder why some of us are dubious about muslims coming to Ireland. :rolleyes:

BTW he got a lot fairer trial than that given by the ones he supported and wanted to join.

Also who paid for his brief?
Who paid for his expert witness Daniel Koelher of the German Institute of Radicalisation and Deradicalisation Studies, the expert in Islamic radicalisation and de-radicalisaton ?

I was replying to a poster who posted about guatanemo bay.
I have no idea about his legal fees, but o guess if he is low income then he qualified for legal aid.
I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial don't you? A fair trial involves defence. He is an Irish citizen, entitled to a defence.

So, I think it's great that a terrorist or wannabe terrorist got caught & convicted.
The system is working

What would you do with the isis twins?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What would you do with the isis twins?

I would treat them the same as every other criminal in this country.

AfterLife

Brae100 wrote: »

Ah, I don't know. It is interesting to at least know the demographic of the people involved in a largely anonymous debate.

A/S/L?

fritzelly

bubblypop wrote: »

I was replying to a poster who posted about guatanemo bay.
I have no idea about his legal fees, but o guess if he is low income then he qualified for legal aid.
I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial don't you? A fair trial involves defence. He is an Irish citizen, entitled to a defence.

So, I think it's great that a terrorist or wannabe terrorist got caught & convicted.
The system is working

Neither from Waterford or Irish - would be terrorist should be treated on a different level to the ordinary criminal, not a slap on the hand and told not to do that again

AfterLife

AfterLife wrote: »

I know in that post you didn't address what I said or acknowledge the link but if you click on your posting history you are a hilarious stereotype.

My posting history? why would I click on my own posting history? I do know what I've written, although perhaps you have some issues there about your own posts.

As for Hilarious stereotype? hmm.. of a rainbow? :rolleyes:

Ok. I'm done taking you even remotely seriously. I tried. I really did... but you're just so... meh!

AfterLife

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My posting history? why would I click on my own posting history? I do know what I've written, although perhaps you have some issues there about your own posts.

As for Hilarious stereotype? hmm.. of a rainbow? :rolleyes:

Ok. I'm done taking you even remotely seriously. I tried. I really did... but you're just so... meh!

I was looking to see your response to the aforementioned post obviously. Carry on anyway bud. Hopefully your eyes don't pop out of the top of your very clever cranium.

Banned.

Uriel.

Boom

fritzelly

fritzelly wrote: »

Neither from Waterford or Irish - would be terrorist should be treated on a different level to the ordinary criminal, not a slap on the hand and told not to do that again

He is an Irish citizen though, is he not?

Uriel.

bubblypop wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen though, is he not?

An Irish terrorist?

fritzelly

bubblypop wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen though, is he not?

Cannot find any mention of him having applied for citizenship - not born here, mother is of Irish descent, father Turkish
More sensational to say Waterford/Irish man

Some interesting reading
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20180706/281775629912479

Good to know he's seen the errors of his ways even tho he wanted to go out there fighting for them.
Irish laws need some updating, once indoctrinated it's not a case of saying I was wrong, sorry judge and won't do it again. Your whole life mentality has been revolving around this - not an easy thing to change. Just look at how cults operate.

Brae100

AfterLife wrote: »

A/S/L?

You've certainly helped narrow down your demographic. Shorthand Tinder lingo. Must be widowed pensioner in Offaly.

Banned.

Uriel.

Uriel. wrote: »

An Irish terrorist?

There is plenty of them!

fritzelly

fritzelly wrote: »

Cannot find any mention of him having applied for citizenship - not born here, mother is of Irish descent, father Turkish
More sensational to say Waterford/Irish man

Some interesting reading
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20180706/281775629912479

Good to know he's seen the errors of his ways even tho he wanted to go out there fighting for them.
Irish laws need some updating, once indoctrinated it's not a case of saying I was wrong, sorry judge and won't do it again. Your whole life mentality has been revolving around this - not an easy thing to change. Just look at how cults operate.

He is an Irish citizen according to the press. Also holds an English passport.
Not everybody needs to apply for citizenship, it's automatic sometimes