Is Islam right for Ireland?

Roger Hassenforder

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Born in Ireland though?

Doesn't matter, if you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen also born outside Ireland, before 2004, then as far as I know, you are automatically an Irish citizen too.

fritzelly

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Born in Ireland though?

Born in the UK, has Irish passport as well
No mention of what "descent" means for his mother - her mother, grandmother, from 200 years ago...

Roger Hassenforder

bubblypop wrote: »

Doesn't matter, if you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen also born outside Ireland, before 2004, then as far as I know, you are automatically an Irish citizen too.

Plug that info into INIS...

It's not simply "automatic"

Roger Hassenforder

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Plug that info into INIS...

It's not simply "automatic"

It is though, anyone with a grandparent born here, is going to get an Irish passport. & if their mother has an Irish passport, there's no problem

Captain Obvious

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you say this (Denaturalization) like its a bad thing? ...
whats wrong with revoking something as important as citizenship to a country from someone you gave it to, from someone that doesn't respect it, have regard to it, who disregards the norms and laws of the land which gave them the gift?
we're not talking unpaid TV licence here...

It cheapens the idea of citizenship.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

except its not

It should be.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Yes it should, and it can.
US do it
Australia do it
Canada does it
Ireland does it

I could go on and on...

Have you any examples of a case of a naturalised citizen having their citizenship revoked in ireland?

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ironic post from someone defending human rights for a supporter or ISIS.
I suppose you'll have that though

That's the thing about human rights. They apply to everyone, not just who you like.

Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It cheapens the idea of citizenship.

There's no dig in this. I'm genuinely curious about the perception on citizenship. For my part, I'd consider citizenship to be a gift, and also a responsibility. The gift due to the benefits that come with citizenship, but the responsibility that we attempt to match up with the laws or cultural values of the nation.

I've traveled quite extensively outside of Europe, mostly in Asia, but also parts of the M.East and a chunk of East Africa. The differences in the cultural values (and laws) of countries can't really be underestimated due to the way that the governments, police, and people themselves interact with each other. To put it this way, outside of Europe, I've found that life is very cheap. It's a much harsher existence in other countries, who might appear very civilised on the surface, but there's a theme of violence or harshness underneath.

I guess the point I'm seeking to make is that citizenship in Ireland or other European countries should be something to aspire to (or to be worthy of), since most other countries are so different in how they treat their citizens. [yes, there's a starship troopers notion of citizenship running through my mind]

Now, for most people being worthy of their citizenship that means obeying the laws, bringing up their children in a "moral"/healthy fashion, contributing to society through work or other positive expressions. And in times of war, or unrest, that the citizens would step up to help or fight.

The suggestions about revoking citizenship is interesting to me, because we no longer execute traitors, and a person who commits themselves to a foreign organisation that commits terrorism in this country would be traitors to their citizenship status. Maybe my logic is flawed.

It could easily be, but I'm thinking of the poor state of our justice system for general lawbreakers, and i'm wondering do we really have the capacity to process those who commit terrorism effectively in a manner that acts as a deterrent, or simply to punish.. It could be that revoking citizenship would be an effective punishment to "discourage" those who would seek out terrorist groups.

I'm not advocating the revoking of citizenship. I'm really not.. since Ireland hasn't been on the receiving end of Islamic terrorism. However, i do find it an interesting idea for punishment in the place of executing citizens for treason.

Ireland has has to prosecute terrorists for 30/40 years.
Whether they are home grown terrorists or foreign terrorists. It doesn't make a difference.
Doesn't matter where they come from & their idealogism doesn't matter.
You break the law in this country, you are subject to the law in this country.
As it should be.

Roger Hassenforder

bubblypop wrote: »

It is though, anyone with a grandparent born here, is going to get an Irish passport. & if their mother has an Irish passport, there's no problem

Exactly
Thats the key- they had to be born in Ireland.

Roger Hassenforder

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It cheapens the idea of citizenship.

It should be.

Have you any examples of a case of a naturalised citizen having their citizenship revoked in ireland?

That's the thing about human rights. They apply to everyone, not just who you like.

What cheapens citizenship is giving it to people who dont appreciate it, or are merely using it as a convenience.
Citizenship is a gift by the people, a threat to those same people is grounds for revokation.

I'm all for human rights. But it requires reciprocity.

Captain Obvious

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no dig in this. I'm genuinely curious about the perception on citizenship. For my part, I'd consider citizenship to be a gift, and also a responsibility. The gift due to the benefits that come with citizenship, but the responsibility that we attempt to match up with the laws or cultural values of the nation.

I've traveled quite extensively outside of Europe, mostly in Asia, but also parts of the M.East and a chunk of East Africa. The differences in the cultural values (and laws) of countries can't really be underestimated due to the way that the governments, police, and people themselves interact with each other. To put it this way, outside of Europe, I've found that life is very cheap. It's a much harsher existence in other countries, who might appear very civilised on the surface, but there's a theme of violence or harshness underneath.

I guess the point I'm seeking to make is that citizenship in Ireland or other European countries should be something to aspire to (or to be worthy of), since most other countries are so different in how they treat their citizens. [yes, there's a starship troopers notion of citizenship running through my mind]

Now, for most people being worthy of their citizenship that means obeying the laws, bringing up their children in a "moral"/healthy fashion, contributing to society through work or other positive expressions. And in times of war, or unrest, that the citizens would step up to help or fight.

The suggestions about revoking citizenship is interesting to me, because we no longer execute traitors, and a person who commits themselves to a foreign organisation that commits terrorism in this country would be traitors to their citizenship status. Maybe my logic is flawed.

It could easily be, but I'm thinking of the poor state of our justice system for general lawbreakers, and i'm wondering do we really have the capacity to process those who commit terrorism effectively in a manner that acts as a deterrent, or simply to punish.. It could be that revoking citizenship would be an effective punishment to "discourage" those who would seek out terrorist groups.

I'm not advocating the revoking of citizenship. I'm really not.. since Ireland hasn't been on the receiving end of Islamic terrorism. However, i do find it an interesting idea for punishment in the place of executing citizens for treason.

For me citizenship is a fundamental state. You are guaranteed certain things with citizenship. That guarantee is worthless if you can simply remove it when it's inconvenient or distasteful. It also opens it to abuse from the government as the power is vested in a single minister.



If there is a class of citizen that can have citizenship removed and a class that cannot then it is two different types of citizen you have and you may as well call the second class something else.



If the justice system cannot handle Islamic terrorists then the answer is to fix the justice system.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

What cheapens citizenship is giving it to people who dont appreciate it, or are merely using it as a convenience.
Citizenship is a gift by the people, a threat to those same people is grounds for revokation.

I'm all for human rights. But it requires reciprocity.

No issue with that opinion. But what about the person born in Ireland who doesn't appreciate their citizenship? Do you feel the same about revoking theirs? If they hold no love for the country and fight for a foreign hostile power should they not also lose their citizenship?

Roger Hassenforder

Captain Obvious wrote: »

No issue with that opinion. But what about the person born in Ireland who doesn't appreciate their citizenship? Do you feel the same about revoking theirs? If they hold no love for the country and fight for a foreign hostile power should they not also lose their citizenship?

Yup
If the hostile power is evidently and self aggrandizingly engaged in wholesale execution of noncombatants and boys, systematic rape of women and children and traffic of kids as sex slaves, ethnic cleansing, and the promulgation of attacks by its supporters on innocent civilians in any city or nation that does not share its backward, medieval, barbaric and disgusting ideology.

(Things like an unpaid parking fine obviously wouldnt fall into that category).

Monday a chap might wire a $100 in support, Tuesday he might up his game and drive an artic into a crowd of men, women and kids engaged in such hostile acts as eating an ice cream.

But yea, human rights...

Captain Obvious

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Yup
If the hostile power is evidently and self aggrandizingly engaged in wholesale execution of noncombatants and boys, systematic rape of women and children and traffic of kids as sex slaves, ethnic cleansing, and the promulgation of attacks by its supporters on innocent civilians in any city or nation that does not share its backward, medieval, barbaric and disgusting ideology.

(Things like an unpaid parking fine obviously wouldnt fall into that category).

Monday a chap might wire a $100 in support, Tuesday he might up his game and drive an artic into a crowd of men, women and kids engaged in such hostile acts as eating an ice cream.

But yea, human rights...

So you'd have no issue removing citizenship from a person born in Ireland for sending €100 to ISIS?

inforfun

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So you'd have no issue removing citizenship from a person born in Ireland for sending €100 to ISIS?

Of course not.
Or do you want to wait till that person turns into someone like this (who iirc burned his Dutch passport himself at 1 point):

https://twitter.com/bjoernstritzel/status/1016381055849455616

Captain Obvious

inforfun wrote: »

Of course not.
Or do you want to wait till that person turns into someone like this (who iirc burned his Dutch passport himself at 1 point):

Not sure what you mean. Do you think removing his citizenship would have changed what he became? But if a citizen commits such a crime then they should be imprisoned. Not sure how citizenship changes that.

kubjones

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Do you think removing his citizenship would have changed what he became? But if a citizen commits such a crime then they should be imprisoned. Not sure how citizenship changes that.

Think temporary citizenship, or a probation period is the solution to this. Given a 2/3 year probation period (amount of time can be subject to previous criminal/employment history), so long as no crimes are committed in this period, then any crimes committed afterwards should be prosecuted in the country they have immigrated to. Otherwise, their citizenship is revoked if the severity of the crime warrants this and for smaller crimes like petty theft or similar, a three-strike rule would be fair.

Captain Obvious

kubjones wrote: »

Think temporary citizenship, or a probation period is the solution to this. Given a 2/3 year probation period (amount of time can be subject to previous criminal/employment history), so long as no crimes are committed in this period, then any crimes committed afterwards should be prosecuted in the country they have immigrated to. Otherwise, their citizenship is revoked if the severity of the crime warrants this and for smaller crimes like petty theft or similar, a three-strike rule would be fair.

What's the point in that? You already need to wait a minimum of three years to apply. Isn't that the probation period?

kubjones

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What's the point in that? You already need to wait a minimum of three years to apply. Isn't that the probation period?

Just an extended amount of time to allow for the removal of people from the Country if they show a penchant for actions against our laws, meaning we'd be spending less on prosecuting or incarcerating these people overall.

Captain Obvious

kubjones wrote: »

Just an extended amount of time to allow for the removal of people from the Country if they show a penchant for actions against our laws, meaning we'd be spending less on prosecuting or incarcerating these people overall.

Why not just increase the waiting time before granting it?

inforfun

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Do you think removing his citizenship would have changed what he became? But if a citizen commits such a crime then they should be imprisoned. Not sure how citizenship changes that.

If you take away their citizenship at least you dont have to take them back like those 2 assholes i posted a couple of pages back and can tell Erdogan to stick them there where the sun doesnt shine.
He has been supporting that lot all the way so he might as well keep them.

Roger Hassenforder

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So you'd have no issue removing citizenship from a person born in Ireland for sending €100 to ISIS?

Nope.
I reckon if someone of sound mind saw fit to send a fcuking shekel to ISIS, its a reasonable assumption that person has zero respect for you, or your fellow citizens. In fact, he'd probay prefer to see your throat slit.

Whatever about sacrificing your own rights on the altar of self righteous sententiousness,
a lot of us are not as fond of the idea.

Wouldnt shed a tear for the fcuker.

ELM327

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So you'd have no issue removing citizenship from a person born in Ireland for sending €100 to ISIS?

No issue revoking citizenship (or better yet, death penalty) for anyone sending even one red cent to Isis

ELM327

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Nope.
I reckon if someone of sound mind saw fit to send a fcuking shekel to ISIS, its a reasonable assumption that person has zero respect for you, or your fellow citizens. In fact, he'd probay prefer to see your throat slit.

Whatever about sacrificing your own rights on the altar of self righteous sententiousness,
a lot of us are not as fond of the idea.

Wouldnt shed a tear for the fcuker.

+1
This exactly tbh.

TheValeyard

Suppose it depends on the culture. The Muslims in Northern Cyprus are a bit of craic. Staunchly secular, enjoy beer, no headsarves and they think their president is a bit of a d1ck.

AfterLife

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Suppose it depends on the culture. The Muslims in Northern Cyprus are a bit of craic. Staunchly secular, enjoy beer, no headsarves and they think their president is a bit of a d1ck.

Lots of Muslims enjoy a beer, just like lots of Catholics enjoy a ****.

TheValeyard

AfterLife wrote: »

Lots of Muslims enjoy a beer, just like lots of Catholics enjoy a ****.

Just not at the same time.

kubjones

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Just not at the same time.

Don't you tell me how to live.

TheValeyard

kubjones wrote: »

Don't you tell me how to live.

You might spill some!!

Roger Hassenforder

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

You might spill some!!

Youre supposed to.

Oh wait, you're referring to beer...

TheValeyard

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Youre supposed to.

Oh wait, you're referring to beer...

Was I.........

imme

I have noticed a few Muslim couples doing the shopping and what not in the past weeks, the younger husbands in shorts and t-shirts the older husbands in long trousers and short sleeve shirts

The women have been head scarves to varying degrees, long trousers and cover all coats all in black

Roki Vulovic

How are we supposed to keep up with muslim birthrates? They will be an ever increasing percentage of the population.

JupiterKid

I have no issue with the headscarf, but it should be an option for Muslim women to wear it.

The niquab and burkha are IMO completely unacceptable garb - the garb of total medieval oppression. And I'm increasingly seeing the niquab around Dublin.

Hector Savage

I'm amazed Pat is still on Twitter

<snip> maybe it's too controversial, just check Pat Condells Twitter feed ...


spot on tho ...

Cabaal

ELM327 wrote: »

No issue revoking citizenship (or better yet, death penalty) for anyone sending even one red cent to Isis

What happens if you're right, you've just supported the murder of an innocent person via the death penalty.

Also what happens if somebody unknowingly gave money to them, maybe you'd support just cutting off their hand?
:rolleyes:

PlaneSpeeking

Cabaal wrote: »

What happens if you're right, you've just supported the murder of an innocent person via the death penalty.

Also what happens if somebody unknowingly gave money to them, maybe you'd support just cutting off their hand?
:rolleyes:

How can you "accidentally" give money to ISIS ????

The_Kew_Tour

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

How can you "accidentally" give money to ISIS ????

The 'Mental health issues' excuse

PlaneSpeeking

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The 'Mental health issues' excuse

AH!!! Get it now.

I threw 5 dollars into a NORAID box once in the US - I knew where it was going.

No one can tell me someone sending thousands abroad to cousin Ahmed who "is away fighting jihad" does not know that could be used to blow up an 8 year old at a gig ?

Billy86

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

How can you "accidentally" give money to ISIS ????

Probably in similar ways to how many Americans accidentally gave money to Irish terroristsback in the day.

PlaneSpeeking

Billy86 wrote: »

Probably in similar ways to how many Americans accidentally gave money to Irish terroristsback in the day.

Read above. Not accidental - but 9.5 for deflection.

Lose half a mark for the landing.

ELM327

Cabaal wrote: »

What happens if you're right, you've just supported the murder of an innocent person via the death penalty.

Also what happens if somebody unknowingly gave money to them, maybe you'd support just cutting off their hand?
:rolleyes:

No innocent person gives money to ISIS. Death to them all is too easy of a penalty but it's the best we can do to stomp them out.


You can't unknowingly give money to someone, unless you're talking about buying something onine but the site is spoofed, in which case that would be mentioned before as the person's defense and likely would not even be brought to court

Timberrrrrrrr

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

AH!!! Get it now.

I threw 5 dollars into a NORAID box once in the US - I knew where it was going.

No one can tell me someone sending thousands abroad to cousin Ahmed who "is away fighting jihad" does not know that could be used to blow up an 8 year old at a gig ?

No, yours could have been used to blow up a couple of kids out shopping for mothers day cards.

Billy86

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Read above. Not accidental - but 9.5 for deflection.

Lose half a mark for the landing.

Yes, accidental. Unless you're utterly clueless as to the "help the local children back home" whiparounds the IRA would run in pubs up and down the US. Hint: that money wasn't going to the local kids.

Just because you support and knowingly fund terrorism doesn't mean everybody else does.

doolox

The death penalty will not terrorise muslims into leaving non-muslims alone. Death is precisely what they want.

Life imprisonment in a Max security prison is what would terrify them more.

There is one in the States where the TV is in black and white only and the only reading material is the Bible.
23 hours locked down with only 1 hour for exercise and no communications with other prisoners.

Billy86

doolox wrote: »

The death penalty will not terrorise muslims into leaving non-muslims alone. Death is precisely what they want.

Life imprisonment in a Max security prison is what would terrify them more.

There is one in the States where the TV is in black and white only and the only reading material is the Bible.
23 hours locked down with only 1 hour for exercise and no communications with other prisoners.

I'm not sure how effective those prison system ideas are though, given the US has one of (possibly the?) highest recidivism rate in the world while the "prison hotels" in Norway produce one of (again, possibly the?) lowest recidivism rate in the world.

Captain Obvious

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not sure how effective those prison system ideas are though, given the US has one of (possibly the?) highest recidivism rate in the world while the "prison hotels" in Norway produce one of (again, possibly the?) lowest recidivism rate in the world.

I think they are only interested in the punishment aspect of prison. The idea of forcing a Muslim to read nothing but the bible for the rest of his life gets them off.

inforfun

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not sure how effective those prison system ideas are though, given the US has one of (possibly the?) highest recidivism rate in the world while the "prison hotels" in Norway produce one of (again, possibly the?) lowest recidivism rate in the world.

Skewed figures as it comes to Norway.
They outsource their baddest baddies to prisons in The Netherlands since 2015.
But that is going to stop end of this year. Norway has built more prisons.

victor8600

Sure, Islam is fine for Ireland. Just do not get the mad Saudi version of Islam. There are a lot of Muslims in Russia, for example. In Kazan, the capital of Tatarstan, you will find mosques and people praying, but your bus driver will probably be a woman.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x415ead1a9d91dd0f%3A0x858ef89ee149b653!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOe5hUAJ8bdNziz6n3SprnJyulQfs9-mRTBsDAs%3Dw86-h87-n-k-no!5sirish%20pub%20in%20kazan%20-%20Google%20Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sU1LL2V4xSEXqi4vRBQNZ2g

JohnMc1

victor8600 wrote: »

Sure, Islam is fine for Ireland. Just do not get the mad Saudi version of Islam. There are a lot of Muslims in Russia, for example. In Kazan, the capital of Tatarstan, you will find mosques and people praying, but your bus driver will probably be a woman.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x415ead1a9d91dd0f%3A0x858ef89ee149b653!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOe5hUAJ8bdNziz6n3SprnJyulQfs9-mRTBsDAs%3Dw86-h87-n-k-no!5sirish%20pub%20in%20kazan%20-%20Google%20Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sU1LL2V4xSEXqi4vRBQNZ2g

Unfortunately all Europe is getting is the mad Saudi version.

Captain Obvious

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Unfortunately all Europe is getting is the mad Saudi version.

Citation needed.

JohnMc1

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Citation needed.

The rapes and crime skyrocketing aren't enough for you?