Is Islam right for Ireland?

Summer In the City

weldoninhio wrote: »

And 9 is a majority?? :rolleyes: Good maths.

We can keep listing countries if you want. I'm mainly commenting on places I've been. What about yourself?

Ulysses Gaze

Summer In the City wrote: »

You can add Jordan, the Lebanon, Turkey and it starts looking like a majority to me.

Turkey under Erdogan is not liberal.

Ulysses Gaze

Odhinn wrote: »

Europe isn't being flooded.

Why don't you look up how many refugees are in muslim states, like Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey?

Sure the horde of big bad brown men are at the Gates of Vienna according to some here.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Summer In the City wrote: »

You can add Jordan, the Lebanon, Turkey and it starts looking like a majority to me.

It would though, wouldn't it.

I mean liberal in comparison to the likes of Afghanistan. The standard is not very high.

Summer In the City

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Turkey under Erdogan is not liberal.

It is.

Zebra3

10000maniacs wrote: »

Is it possible for you to post something without insulting someone?
Anyway those priests and nuns you talk about are mostly dead or very old. So it is hyperbole.
In Ireland in the last century you weren't whipped for having an affair or beheaded for homosexual acts.
It was all about standing in society. Admittedly, it was wrong and crazy, but it is erroneous to lump 60 year Irish church attitudes and behavior as a counter claim against peoples current concerns about Islam.

So you have no problem with RC officials not being prosecuted for crimes they’ve committed because they are old?

Wow, we can see the bigotry now.

Question everything about one religion but give a free pass to the criminals of another.

In Ireland in the last century, women were enslaved and beaten in camps by members of the RC church for having a kid out of wedlock.

All done with the support of FF, FG and Labour.

Let’s deal with the religious criminality that has actually happened instead of the Brit tabloidesque hysteria.

Odhinn

garbo speaks wrote: »

. Christians are not forced to live in medieval squalor.
l.

emmmmm.....wtf?

yourdeadwright

Religion is the biggest farce ever ,
Its simply away to control people, and there will always be someone making money from it,

The_Kew_Tour

Zebra3 wrote: »

So you have no problem with RC officials not being prosecuted for crimes they’ve committed because they are old?

Wow, we can see the bigotry now.

Question everything about one religion but give a free pass to the criminals of another.

In Ireland in the last century, women were enslaved and beaten in camps by members of the RC church for having a kid out of wedlock.

All done with the support of FF, FG and Labour.

Let’s deal with the religious criminality that has actually happened instead of the Brit tabloidesque hysteria.

Meanwhile Germany in 1942......

The_Kew_Tour

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Religion is the biggest farce ever ,
Its simply away to control people, and there will always be someone making money from it,

+1

Odhinn

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Sure the horde of big bad brown men are at the Gates of Vienna according to some here.

Is that a club? Asking for a friend.

donegaLroad

bubblypop wrote: »

agreed.
which is why it shouldn't matter what religion anyone is coming into the country

It matters if the religion does not give men and women equal rights.

Zebra3

donegaLroad wrote: »

It matters if the religion does not give men and women equal rights.

Does any religion?

10000maniacs

Zebra3 wrote: »

So you have no problem with RC officials not being prosecuted for crimes they’ve committed because they are old?

Wow, we can see the bigotry now.

Question everything about one religion but give a free pass to the criminals of another.

In Ireland in the last century, women were enslaved and beaten in camps by members of the RC church for having a kid out of wedlock.

All done with the support of FF, FG and Labour.

Let’s deal with the religious criminality that has actually happened instead of the Brit tabloidesque hysteria.

Why import more religious bigots?
And it is not Brit tabloidesque hysteria. They will openly admit their religious bigotry when asked.

Grayson

garbo speaks wrote: »

Christians don't keep their women as virtual prisoners in the home. Christians don't force their women to go out covered from head to toe in black, and in the company of a male. Christians don't have a form of law that stones, brutalizes and dismembers those who commit the 'crimes' of adultery and homosexuality. Christians are not taught to believe that those who do not believe in God are apostates and should be killed. Christians are not forced to live in medieval squalor.

To compare Christianity to Islam is nonsensical.

You do realize a lot of that is also true for christians. And it's also not true for the majority of muslims.

This is what I mentioned pages back. People take the worst followers of islam and extend that to the whole of islam.
Yet if you do that for christians you're crazy.

masculinist

did I detect a fallacy of "Christians were bad in the past therefore the post Christians of today should accept extremism now" ? Most Irish people arent Christian even if they say so in a census. They just have the kindest of the Christian values embedded into their culture and shun the abusers who infiltrate all organizations. Instead of being Christians, they just have a post Christian hangover and a Christian culture going back almost 2000 years and they dont want to add a Islamic hangover to it and make it worse.

Grayson

10000maniacs wrote: »

Why import more religious bigots?
And it is not Brit tabloidesque hysteria. They will openly admit their religious bigotry when asked.

See, you're assuming that refugees that come here are religious bigots. You've done nothing to prove that they are.

donegaLroad

Zebra3 wrote: »

Does any religion?

A religion free Ireland is the best way forward, and by that I mean a clear separation of church and state, where the church would have no say or influence in government policy. Religion would not be a compulsory subject at school. etc.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Ireland has grown to become a liberal and moderate country.

Most Islamic countries to my mind, are not liberal or moderate, with the exception of Turkey... although the current prime minister's party have worked to try and change this since 2016.

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

It matters if the religion does not give men and women equal rights.

the laws of the land give men and women equal rights

p1akuw47h5r3it

Grayson wrote: »

See, you're assuming that refugees that come here are religious bigots. You've done nothing to prove that they are.

There has been many links to Pew research and articles showing Muslim views on, for example, homosexuality and women rights. They don't make for great reading.

Yes, we may have people come who are just as socially liberal as us but the chances way heavily in favour of the opposite.

donegaLroad

bubblypop wrote: »

the laws of the land give men and women equal rights

yup.. which is why religious groups should not be allowed to influence government policy.

weldoninhio

bubblypop wrote: »

the laws of the land give men and women equal rights

The law of the UK says no raping young girls, didn't stop the gangs in Telford, Derby, Newcastle, Luton and on and on and on.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

You do realize a lot of that is also true for christians. And it's also not true for the majority of muslims.

This is what I mentioned pages back. People take the worst followers of islam and extend that to the whole of islam.
Yet if you do that for christians you're crazy.

You appear to be ignorant of statistics and numbers in general sir. How many Christians are bombing and truck attacking European cities ? If excluding Christians stopped it I would be all for it .

Grayson

DanDan6592 wrote: »

There has been many links to Pew research and articles showing Muslim views on, for example, homosexuality and women rights. They don't make for great reading.

Yes, we may have people come who are just as socially liberal as us but the chances way heavily in favour of the opposite.

And I've actually tore apart some of that research.

And even when we assume that some muslims are extremely religious you haven't proved that the opnes who come are like that.

Finally you also have to prove that the average muslim does not have views that are any worse than the average christian.
That may sound like whatabouttery but anyone who's fine with a christian who dislikes gays coming to ireland but wants to ban a muslim who feels the same is pretty racist. At that point it's not about the views that people hold since both have the same views.

And I've yet to see anyone who's opposed to muslims coming to Ireland suggest the christians who are anti gay marriage should be banned too.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

The law of the UK says no raping young girls, didn't stop the gangs in Telford, Derby, Newcastle, Luton and on and on and on.

the law here says no raping women either but it doesnt stop rape.
whats your point?

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

yup.. which is why religious groups should not be allowed to influence government policy.

agreed

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

And I've actually tore apart some of that research.

And even when we assume that some muslims are extremely religious you haven't proved that the opnes who come are like that.

Finally you also have to prove that the average muslim does not have views that are any worse than the average christian.
That may sound like whatabouttery but anyone who's fine with a christian who dislikes gays coming to ireland but wants to ban a muslim who feels the same is pretty racist. At that point it's not about the views that people hold since both have the same views.

And I've yet to see anyone who's opposed to muslims coming to Ireland suggest the christians who are anti gay marriage should be banned too.

Thats intellectual cowardice and unbelievable sophistry.

We dont have a problem with extremist Christians. We actually live in a very secular society with legacy institutions which change slowly because change requires money and effort. Christians arent truck bombing and committing acts of terrorism across Europe. Neither extremist Christianity nor extremist Islam should be allowed to take root in Ireland or Europe.

Grayson

masculinist wrote: »

You appear to be ignorant of statistics and numbers in general sir. How many Christians are bombing and truck attacking European cities ? If excluding Christians stopped it I would be all for it .

You do realise that the number of people killed by muslims is tiny.

In the US, a country which has invaded two countries to stop islamic terror, you are more likely to be killed by a toddler.

And the number of muslims who commit these attacks is tiny. You cannot extend that to the whole religion of almost a billion people.

This is the point where you reply about how I hate the victims and I'm a heartless bastard. I don't want to see islamic terrorism. I think the people who commit those crimes are bastards. However I'm not stupid enough to take the actions of a few and extend it to billions.

And that's because I'm a mathematician and logician. So I understand statistics and can see through a very, very dumb induction argument.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Grayson wrote: »

And I've yet to see anyone who's opposed to muslims coming to Ireland suggest the christians who are anti gay marriage should be banned too.

I did in post 76.

Edit: Although I should add, vey few are advocating for an all out ban.

masculinist

Grayson wrote: »

You do realise that the number of people killed by muslims is tiny.

Tell that to the victims. Why dont you sit down with them over a cup of tea or something with them and tell them how they as citizens should be less important then non citizens.
Tell that to the media who are in fear of publishing cartoons because if they do they know what will happen

Snake Plisken

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Sure the horde of big bad brown men are at the Gates of Vienna according to some here.

I love the way the progressive left keep trying to hammer home that it’s a race related issue like the above poster when we are talking about a repressive religon that some of its followers carry out horrible terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, that makes young girls and women cover there hair for modesty. I have no time for it or any other repressive religon and calling people out who don’t agree with it as racist is just childish

The Backwards Man

"I'm no bigot" - Willie Frazer

eeguy

masculinist wrote: »

Tell that to the victims. Why dont you sit down with them over a cup of tea or something with them and tell them how they as citizens should be less important then non citizens.
Tell that to the media who are in fear of publishing cartoons because if they do they know what will happen

Ah yes, the old victim playing argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing

Funny, another poster said exactly the same thing after I pointed out that air travel is the safest method of transport. "tell that to the family of the woman who died this week".
Like, what sort of answer do you want?

masculinist

eeguy wrote: »

Ah yes, the old victim playing argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing

Funny, another poster said exactly the same thing after I pointed out that air travel is the safest method of transport. "tell that to the family of the woman who died this week".
Like, what sort of answer do you want?

I want for nothing . You would want a conscience

eeguy

masculinist wrote: »

I want for nothing . You would want a conscience

I have a perfectly well developed conscience that doesn't like to see images of children washed up on beaches because of close minded attitudes like yours.

keith_sixteen

eeguy wrote: »

Ah yes, the old victim playing argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing
"tell that to the family of the woman who died this week".
Like, what sort of answer do you want?

Not a deliberate act.

Kivaro

bubblypop wrote: »

the law here says no raping women either but it doesnt stop rape.

The rape occurrences in Ireland, even with population adjustments, are no way near the scale that you see in English cities with large Muslim populations ...... specifically the grooming and systematic sexual exploitation of underage local girls.

Irish liberals will say that the Irish authorities will handle these types of rapes better that than the British authorities, but for the life of me I cannot think of the magic formula that the Irish will use. We are known worldwide to be soft on crime, which makes the country even more attractive to migrants with criminal intent.

eeguy

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Like Alan Kurdi? Whose family were in safe Turkey but tried illegally enter into Kos more than likely due to Angela Merkel essentially welcoming everyone and anyone into Europe.

Who's family wished to join their extended family in Canada but were denied exit visas from Turkey with no explanation?

As I've pointed out before, you don't put yourself and your family on a sh*tty rubber raft if you're safe and sound. You can make up whatever fantasy you want.

p1akuw47h5r3it

eeguy wrote: »

Who's family wished to join their extended family in Canada but were denied exit visas from Turkey with no explanation?

As I've pointed out before, you don't put yourself and your family on a sh*tty rubber raft if you're safe and sound. You can make up whatever fantasy you want.

They were denied entry into Canada, however were safe in Turkey. It was a poor comment to make however, in bad taste. Tried deleteing it before you saw it.

joe40

Considering the number of muslims in america, combined with the free availability of firearms, if they actually posed a significant threat there would be a lot more acts of terror.
I was talking to someone who expressed concern about going to paris, but would have no issue going to as las vegas. They had forgot about the mass shooting there.
In saying that we have a hard fought mostly secular society, I would hate to see that eroded due to a misplaced sense of fairness. Everyone is entitled to their religion, but laws of the country take precedence.

eeguy

DanDan6592 wrote: »

They were denied entry into Canada, however were safe in Turkey. It was a poor comment to make however, in bad taste. Tried deleteing it before you saw it.

Denied entry because they didn't have an exit visa. Took 2 mins on Wikipedia and sources to find all this out.

Kivaro wrote: »

The rape occurrences in Ireland, even with population adjustments, are no way near the scale that you see in English cities with large Muslim populations ...... specifically the grooming and systematic sexual exploitation of underage local girls.

Again, not completely true. Come on lads, it only takes a few minutes of Googling to get some proper statistics on this.

masculinist

eeguy wrote: »

I have a perfectly well developed conscience that doesn't like to see images of children washed up on beaches because of close minded attitudes like yours.

Ah you mean the child who was drowned because his father took him out of Turkey where he was safe because Merkel said for the whole world to come to Germany even if they weren't genuine refugees . The same child who's body was repositioned by journalists for photos . I don't see a conscience..I see hysteria and irresponsibility. I also see support for human traffickers who work closely with dodgy ngos

eeguy

masculinist wrote: »

Ah you mean the child who was drowned because his father took him out of Turkey where he was safe because Merkel said for the whole world to come to Germany even if they weren't genuine refugees . The same child who's body was repositioned by journalists for photos . I don't see a conscience..I see hysteria and irresponsibility.

A dead child is the same no matter what position he is in.

2 Scoops

Progressives



Reality - this C4 documentary on what's being taught in UK Mosque's

masculinist

eeguy wrote: »

A dead child is the same no matter what position he is in.

Tell that to the children of Rotherham. How many foreigners do you have sleeping on your couch or are you a hypocrite ?

2 Scoops

joe40 wrote: »

Considering the number of muslims in america, combined with the free availability of firearms, if they actually posed a significant threat there would be a lot more acts of terror.
I was talking to someone who expressed concern about going to paris, but would have no issue going to as las vegas. They had forgot about the mass shooting there.
In saying that we have a hard fought mostly secular society, I would hate to see that eroded due to a misplaced sense of fairness. Everyone is entitled to their religion, but laws of the country take precedence.

Ah sure it's grand like, there's only 23k jihadi's in the UK now. No problems there. Get a clue please about what's happening in Europe.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

eeguy

masculinist wrote: »

Tell that to the children of Rotherham. How many foreigners do you have sleeping on your couch or are you a hypocrite ?

Ah, another "tell that to..." argument. Plenty of them around today I see.

Why would I have foreigners sleeping on my couch?

Odhinn

eeguy wrote: »

Ah, another "tell that to..." argument. Plenty of them around today I see.

Why would I have foreigners sleeping on my couch?

Because there isnt enough room under your bed anymore?

2 Scoops

Odhinn wrote: »

Because there isnt enough room under your bed anymore?

They wouldn't sleep under your bed anyway, half of them in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html

"London (CNN)More than half of British Muslims (52%) think homosexuality should not be legal, and nearly half (47%) think it is not appropriate for gay people to teach in schools, according to a new survey of British Muslims.The results have sparked debate about the integration of the Britain's largest religious minority."

eeguy

2 Scoops wrote: »

They wouldn't sleep under your bed anyway, half of them in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html

"London (CNN)More than half of British Muslims (52%) think homosexuality should not be legal, and nearly half (47%) think it is not appropriate for gay people to teach in schools, according to a new survey of British Muslims.The results have sparked debate about the integration of the Britain's largest religious minority."

I'm sure people from Roscommon would give you a similar answer
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/it-s-not-easy-being-a-yes-roscommon-voter-1.2224140