Is Islam right for Ireland?

PlaneSpeeking

Midlife wrote: »

Why is it inherent on Islam to bring benefits. Can the people not be beneficial?

If you hear of an Italian coming to the country, do you think 'great, a Catholic because .....'

My boss's fella is Italian. He's jewish.

Prejudiced assumption there.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Must have missed them, don't remember anything concrete. Could you go again by any chance if it's not too much hassle? Just a simple list will do.

*salutes*

No I won't be dragging an argument on immigration into a thread on Islam. I'm sure you're capable of going back over the threads you've posted in against immigrants/muslims to find our discussions.

Midlife

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

My boss's fella is Italian. He's jewish.

Prejudiced assumption there.

Given you're so quick to respond when someone's wrong, it's interesting that apart from a quippy two-liner, you didn't have much to say about my explanation that you demanded earlier.

Captain Obvious

Midlife wrote: »

Why is it inherent on Islam to bring benefits. Can the people not be beneficial?

They don't see a separation between a person and their religion.

PlaneSpeeking

Midlife wrote: »

Given you're so quick to respond when someone's wrong, it's interesting that apart from a quippy two-liner, you didn't have much to say about my explanation that you demanded earlier.

Because its utter nonsense and not an answer.

SnakePlissken

Midlife wrote: »

To be honest. I've stated my case.

I can see you've gone to some effort with your reply, even using paragraphs no less, however other than the opening line I'm not going to read any of it until you openly admit to fabricating the below statement, and the agenda behind same.

Midlife wrote: »

and 100% of pedophile rings are white.

Omackeral

Midlife wrote: »

Why is it inherent on Islam to bring benefits.

It's just a question that's been posed in relation to the thread. The thread is called Is Islam Right For Ireland. It's a valid query in that regard.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

No I won't be dragging an argument on immigration into a thread on Islam.

Forget the other thread for a minute. Point blank asking you here and now if you can give me a few examples of positive things Islam brings to Ireland. Simple question.

Rory28

Captain Obvious wrote: »

They don't see a separation between a person and their religion.

Thats a load of horse sh1t. I have no problem with people if they live and let live. That is not the case with islam. In Islamic countries women are 2nd class citizens. Did you see how patronizing the Saudis where to the women that were finally given permission to drive. Why would you want something like this in Ireland?

This could just as easily be taken back again for religious reasons.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Forget the other thread for a minute. Point blank asking you here and now if you can give me a few examples of positive things Islam brings to Ireland. Simple question.

But it's not the same question from the other thread, the one I gave you answers to.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm sure you're capable of going back over the threads you've posted in against immigrants/muslims to find our discussions.

I'm not against immigrants and I'm not against Muslims (Islam is pure bollox though). Quote me on either or take it back back if you wish. You probably won't do either though.

TheValeyard

Omackeral wrote: »

Forget the other thread for a minute. Point blank asking you here and now if you can give me a few examples of positive things Islam brings to Ireland. Simple question.

Falafel!

Captain Obvious

Rory28 wrote: »

Thats a load of horse sh1t. I have no problem with people if they live and let live. That is not the case with islam. In Islamic countries women are 2nd class citizens. Did you see how patronizing the Saudis where to the women that were finally given permission to drive. Why would you want something like this in Ireland?

This could just as easily be taken back again for religious reasons.

Who has said they want something like that in Ireland?

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

They don't see a separation between a person and their religion.

Incorrect. Have met plenty of lovely Muslim people. The religion is utter gick though.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But it's not the same question from the other thread, the one I gave you answers to.

Forget any other thread for now.

I'm asking you point blank here and now to tell us some beneficial factors that Islam brings to Ireland. What is so hard about that? Can you not do it, is that the problem? Why not just list them off the top of your head there if you can? No excuses. Just a quick few if you can.

Rory28

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Who has said they want something like that in Ireland?

Why wouldn't they?

PlaneSpeeking

Omackeral wrote: »

Incorrect. Have met plenty of lovely Muslim people. The religion is utter gick though.

I work in a College with around 65% Muslim students.

Some gits, some standoffish, and one or two downright scary but the majority are sound people.

However, they are allowed to have separate male and female Freshers' events; demand - and are given - no lectures on Friday lunch to go for prayers; alcohol free Freshers week (despite a trip to a historical pub forming part of the week for decades).

Add to that I was openly threatened by a student because what he demanded could not be given to him (against the rules), it was ignored and I was advised to attend cultural sensitivity training. Apparently he couldn't shake hands with a woman but could shove one against a wall and spit in her face.

Omackeral

Rory28 wrote: »

Why wouldn't they?

Wasting your time trying to extract an answer out of him. I've asked five times for an answer and haven't got one. Always has a little way of bitching out of a straight up answer. Pathetic really.

ELM327

I should add that in my job I work with many muslims.
The eastern european countries (particularly the yugoslav countries) have a lot of muslims. And these are fne.

It's only the ones from the middle east that have these cultural issues in my experience

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

I should add that in my job I work with many muslims.
The eastern european countries (particularly the yugoslav countries) have a lot of muslims. And these are fne.

It's only the ones from the middle east that have these cultural issues in my experience

The football teams I follow has at least one Muslim player - perhaps two, I think i have to check.

The one I know for sure is Bosnian. Ramadan happened in preseason and he took all manner of abuse on social media for being seen to take a performance drink in training.

Not known for their tolerance are Muslims - even to their own.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Forget any other thread for now.

I'm asking you point blank here and now to tell us some beneficial factors that Islam brings to Ireland. What is so hard about that? Can you not do it, is that the problem? Why not just list them off the top of your head there if you can? No excuses. Just a quick few if you can.

But I've never claimed Islam would be beneficial to Ireland. You called me out, by name, over not giving answers to a question asked here. I am pointing out that it was a different thread, a different question and I did give you answers.

Rory28 wrote: »

Why wouldn't they?

You asked "Why would you want something like this in Ireland?" Who were you talking to?

Cordell

ELM327 wrote: »

The eastern european countries (particularly the yugoslav countries) have a lot of muslims. And these are fne.

But white non-muslim Romanians are not fine, right?

Rory28

Rory28 wrote: »

When was the last time you had a conversation with a Muslim woman?

I talk with Muslim women every single day. And Muslim men.
And they all speak to everyone else.

Roger Hassenforder

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Who has said they want something like that in Ireland?

When you say "like that" do you mean the driving "thing", or things like that?

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

I should add that in my job I work with many muslims.
The eastern european countries (particularly the yugoslav countries) have a lot of muslims. And these are fne.

It's only the ones from the middle east that have these cultural issues in my experience

Exactly the point. So the problem is not Islam. The people have a problem with certain people from certain countries.
It's not the religion.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But I've never claimed Islam would be beneficial to Ireland.

Right. So allow me to ask you here on this Islam in Ireland thread as there's no better place. Are there benefits to Islam in Ireland? If so, could you tell some please? Simple. Very simple. First question is a handy yes/no. Second one just asks what benefits there are, if any.

Also, you said I'm against immigrants and Muslims. Proof of that please.

Captain Obvious

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

When you say "like that" do you mean the driving "thing", or things like that?

Either.

ELM327

Cordell wrote: »

But white non-muslim Romanians are not fine, right?

So your stalking skills are , as the kids say, "On Fleek".


We all know the difference between roma gypsies and the rest of the eastern bloc, right? We don't have to go into that? Good.


Now it has nothing to do with the issue at had, which is "Is islam right for Ireland". And the answer, clearly, is a resounding NO today, NO tomorrow, NO forever. To borrow a phrase from a man i clearly detest.

Rory28

bubblypop wrote: »

I talk with Muslim women every single day. And Muslim men.
And they all speak to everyone else.

Yea fair enough that was a poor example. I take it back.

Do you think Muslim women and Non-Muslim women have the same freedoms if they both live in Ireland?

On paper they will but to be a practicing Muslim they do not.

Midlife

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Because its utter nonsense and not an answer.

Yes, dismiss a long thought-out explanation as nonsense/untrue and refuse to engage. Great debating skills.

Midlife

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I can see you've gone to some effort with your reply, even using paragraphs no less, however other than the opening line I'm not going to read any of it until you openly admit to fabricating the below statement, and the agenda behind same.

Yes, dismiss a long thought-out explanation as nonsense/untrue and refuse to engage. Great debating skills.

PlaneSpeeking

Midlife wrote: »

Yes, dismiss a long thought-out explanation as nonsense/untrue and refuse to engage. Great debating skills.

If that was thought out then I feel sorry for you.

Okay, I'll do you a deal - prove your stat about 100% of paedophile rings being white and I'll answer you point by point.

Rory28

Rory28 wrote: »

Yea fair enough that was a poor example. I take it back.

Do you think Muslim women and Non-Muslim women have the same freedoms if they both live in Ireland?

On paper they will but to be a practicing Muslim they do not.

It depends on how religious they are. Lots of Muslim's are just like you & me. Some are more religious.
A bit like every religion you know......

Midlife

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If that was thought out then I feel sorry for you.

Okay, I'll do you a deal - prove your stat about 100% of paedophile rings being white and I'll answer you point by point.

A survey was done in the UK which found that 100% of the pedophile rings it investigated were white.

It's in the link you yourself posted earlier.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Right. So allow me to ask you here on this Islam in Ireland thread as there's no better place. Are there benefits to Islam in Ireland? If so, could you tell some please? Simple. Very simple. First question is a handy yes/no. Second one just asks what benefits there are, if any.

You have such a weird obsession. You did this earlier in the thread too. Trying to get me to say six specific words about Islam. It doesn't seem to matter how often I tell you I am against religion in general, which obviously includes Islam. There can be some benefits to religion but in general I don't think any specific religion brings anything uniquely positive to any culture.

Omackeral wrote: »

Also, you said I'm against immigrants and Muslims. Proof of that please.

All anyone has to do is read your posts in this thread and any other about Muslims or immigrants. Of course, it is possible there is another reason you consistently argue against anyone who talks of tolerance towards those two groups. If that's the case please fell free to let me know.

PlaneSpeeking

Midlife wrote: »

A survey was done in the UK which found that 100% of the pedophile rings it investigated were white.

It's in the link you yourself posted earlier.

Already debunked there squire, try again.

Cordell

ELM327 wrote: »

We all know the difference between roma gypsies and the rest of the eastern bloc, right? We don't have to go into that? Good.

Romanian ethnics are not roma gypsies. You can have roma gypsies from all over the europe, not only from eastern block. The ones that came here recently indeed came mostly from Romania but also from Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians

I'm not stalking you, I just wanted to know why are you against me being here. I think I know now, my mistake, I shouldn't have cared in the first place.

blinding

It’s mad Ted ........it really is mad .

Midlife

Right. Here's our conversation following my claim I could explain what was wrong with your and another poster's argument.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/quilliam-grooming-gangs-report-asian-abuse-rotherham-rochdale-newcastle-a8101941.html

Have at it.

Midlife wrote: »

Fine. Have it your way.

Your link only relates to 'grooming gangs'. Snake Pllisken said 'all child grooming cases'.

So he's stateing that of the child grooming cases in the UK, 84% were carried out by British Asians which is simply not not true. It's not. Read the actual article please.

The truth is that 84% of the people who groomed children with others were British Asian - which is totally messed up. No denying. But we're talking pedophilia here, they're all messed up.

Surely the question should be 'are British Asians more likely to abuse children?'

The same article you just quoted to me says that a 2012 report from the The National Crime Agency’s Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command (CEOP) found that 85% of child sex abusers were white. WHITE!!!

In 2011, the Last British census, 86% of the population were white. So instances of child abuse are fairly evenly spread and that's before you get to questions of under-reporting in particular communities.

It also says that 100% of the people convicted of pedophile rings were white, as I mentioned earlier.

If I was being really nitpicky, I'd say you also said 2% in your original statement but Muslims make up about 5%.

My question for you again is where does Islam fit into this? I've just explained how a white British person is just as likely to abuse a child as a British Asian. There's no mention of religion.

and here's your fantastic responses since.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yes, Asian immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh generally tend to follow Scientology and the Seventh Day Aventists.

Every now and again the mammy's saying is needed "there's none so blind as them that will not see"

Oh and I said "grooming gangs" , I provided links to same. I do not interfere with other posters providing links.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

My boss's fella is Italian. He's jewish.

Prejudiced assumption there.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Because its utter nonsense and not an answer.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If that was thought out then I feel sorry for you.

Okay, I'll do you a deal - prove your stat about 100% of paedophile rings being white and I'll answer you point by point.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Already debunked there squire, try again.

Anyone reading this will see that since I stated clearly the facts to hand, you're clearly avoiding rational debate.

Took me about 15 minutes to show how thin your logic is.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You have such a weird obsession. You did this earlier in the thread too. Trying to get me to say six specific words about Islam. It doesn't seem to matter how often I tell you I am against religion in general, which obviously includes Islam. There can be some benefits to religion but in general I don't think any specific religion brings anything uniquely positive to any culture.

Was that so hard? Fcuk sake. FWIW, you were bleating about some moral values on the other thread but getting this out of you was akin to getting blood out of a stone so we'll leave it there.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

All anyone has to do is read your posts in this thread and any other about Muslims or immigrants.

Here, I'll provide one myself seen as you never back up your claims.

Omackeral wrote: »

''They (Muslims) cause nothing but headaches''. The extremist d*ckheads yep but on the whole? Can't agree there partner. I've personally never been given a single problem from one Muslim person to my knowledge. Lived beside a family for 10 years and they were as nice as you could get. Great neighbours and a bit of craic too to be honest. Actually, gonna quote that again, 'they' cause nothing but problems...that's actually a bit nuts. Extremists, yes. Hardliners, yes. The everyday working man here in IBM or driving a taxi or something, can't agree. There's a middle ground to be had here. I despise these scumbags who carry out atrocities. I don't have a thing against a fella who provides for his family and happens to pray 5 times a day and fasts in the Summer. You letting these toerags make you turn on every Muslim in the world is actually a victory for them.

You never provide examples of what you claim. The above shows you my insights from a personal level. You haven't a clue whatsoever what you're talking about when you level those accusations at me.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Was that so hard? Fcuk sake. FWIW, you were bleating about some moral values on the other thread but getting this out of you was akin to getting blood out of a stone so we'll leave it there.

I already said this to you in this thread.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Islam is not right for Ireland.

I can't really see how you have forgotten since you hounded me to say those exact words.

Omackeral wrote: »

Here, I'll provide one myself seen as you never back up your claims.



You never provide examples of what you claim. The above shows you my insights from a personal level. You haven't a clue whatsoever what you're talking about when you level those accusations at me.

You had to go back to December 2016 to find something good you said about Muslims. Yet in any of the past few threads on the topic of Muslims or immigrants you've posted in you've argued with people who argue against treating Muslims or immigrants based on their religion. But hey, I'll accept your stated assertion you have no issue with immigrants and Muslims.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I already said this to you in this thread. I can't really see how you have forgotten since you hounded me to say those exact words.

Apologies, you actually did. You also alluded to some moral positives that never came but we'll leave that alone.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You had to go back to December 2016 to find something good you said about Muslims. Yet in any of the past few threads on the topic of Muslims or immigrants you've posted in you've argued with people who argue against treating Muslims or immigrants based on their religion.

Sorry WTF? Where is it said that I have to say anything good about anybody from any religious sect? You're the one making the claim that I'm saying bad things about immigrants and Muslims. I'm not. Point to me where I am. As an aside, and on the contrary, I've provided an instance where I've said had zero negative interactions with people of the Muslim faith.

Anyway, here's a few more neutral posts. Doesn't really sound very hateful to me.

Omackeral wrote: »

Agree 100%. Couldn't agree more. I know plenty of Muslims who are just normal blokes, working away from week to week just trying to make ends meet, like the rest of us.

Like the rest of us. Oh, the hatred.

Then there's this. Look at point number one.

Omackeral wrote: »

I do think it's absolutely wrong to discriminate against Muslims.
I don't think it's wrong to criticise Islam.
I don't think you can be racist against Muslims (solely because they're Muslim) as it's not a race.
I do think plenty of racists discriminate against Muslims.

I'll say it again shall I? I do think it's absolutely wrong to discriminate against Muslims. So bigoted amn't I?

Omackeral wrote: »

You can think what you want...assume away. I'm fairly indifferent on immigration and multiculturalism to be honest. Doesn't really bother me if my neighbours are of a different background to me and at the same it doesn't bother me if someone says they'd rather live among people just like them.

Can you feel the bile flowing?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But hey, I'll accept your stated assertion you have no issue with immigrants and Muslims.

Mate, you've got it completely wrong with me. If you can't see that criticism of a religion does not equate to hating the followers of it, there's not much I can say to change your tune. As far as immigration goes, I've no issues whatsoever with people of different backgrounds living here. The Irish did it themselves. Still do it. Quote me on saying otherwise about immigrants if you think you can, but you won't be able to. You've gotten the wrong end of the stick completely. If you want to just admit to that, we can let by-gones be by gones.

Captain Obvious

Omackeral wrote: »

Mate, you've got it completely wrong with me. If you can't see that criticism of a religion does not equate to hating the followers of it, there's not much I can say to change your tune. As far as immigration goes, I've no issues whatsoever with people of different backgrounds living here. The Irish did it themselves. Still do it. Quote me on saying otherwise about immigrants if you think you can, but you won't be able to. You've gotten the wrong end of the stick completely. If you want to just admit to that, we can let by-gones be by gones.

I literally just said I'll accept your assertion you have no issues with immigrants or Muslims.

Omackeral

Captain Obvious wrote: »

All anyone has to do is read your posts in this thread and any other about Muslims or immigrants.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I literally just said I'll accept your assertion you have no issues with immigrants or Muslims.

Grand. I'll take that.

SnakePlissken

Midlife wrote: »

Yes, dismiss a long thought-out explanation as nonsense/untrue and refuse to engage. Great debating skills.

There is no debate, you've posted an outright lie and are too immature to own up to it, when you rescind your claim that ALL paedophile rings are 100% white you might be taken more seriously.

SnakePlissken

Midlife wrote: »

100% of pedophile rings are white.

so no Australians or Canadians either?

Midlife wrote: »

Anyone reading this will see that since I stated clearly the facts to hand.

Eh no.

You claimed, 100% of all pedophile rings as being white, by mentioning Australians and Canadians inferring this statement also included rings in those two nations. This is an obvious fabrication and you have failed to provide any shred of evidence to back this up, the one link you did post related only to the UK and clearly stated;

However, researchers said their data’s sample size had been too small and more research needed to be conducted.

A small survey that itself admits is too narrow a sample, will not be taken as FACT by anyone without an agenda.

You seem to be caught up in your own falsehoods as proven by your below contradictory post;

Midlife wrote: »

The truth is that 84% of the people who groomed children with others were British Asian - which is totally messed up. No denying.

Midlife wrote: »

Muslims make up about 5%.

The above two statements directly contradict the third below;

Midlife wrote: »

I've just explained how a white British person is just as likely to abuse a child as a British Asian.

Midlife

SnakePlissken wrote: »

There is no debate, you've posted an outright lie and are too immature to own up to it, when you rescind your claim that ALL paedophile rings are 100% white you might be taken more seriously.

I didn't mean all, I was simply quoting that statement to point out that studies can show lots that doesn't make sense.

My use of paragraphs was meant to show a change in topic.

The mention to Australians and Canadians was meant to state that given these people are predominantly white and you one can produce some survey to show in a specific case that 100% of pedophile rings are white, then we may as well say these people are not right for Ireland either.

That was my train of thought and my intended statement. Apologies if you took it up incorrectly.

Of course all pedophile rings globally are not white.

Midlife

SnakePlissken wrote: »

The above two statements directly contradict the third below;

Sorry but they don't.

84% of people who operate grooming gangs were found to be British-Asian.

It doesn't mention how many children were groomed or abused.

I don't think you quite understand this tbh.

Hence your inaccurate statement. '84% of all convicted child sex groomers in the UK are Asian'

Read the article and you'll see what I mean. They talk about a sample of 222 cases or something where grooming gangs were found to have acted. Your statement assumes that that 222 is the total for the entire UK.

It's not. There are others guilty of grooming children. Then there are those guilty of abusing children.

When you take the entire group together and count all the perpetrators, 85% of them are white.

I can't see how you see a problem with that.

It's very scary when you're misinterpreting the facts and basically asserting that Muslims are far more likely to be child molesters. That's kind of messed up tbh.

Of course there are issues with extreme interpretations of Islamic law that have no place in a country like Ireland. No one's saying otherwise. Faith should absolutely be a personal choice, mostly a private affair and should never impinge on the rights of others.

But to suggest that someone is more likely to be a child molester/groomer because of their faith. That's just wrong. Really really narrow-minded.

SnakePlissken

Midlife wrote: »

It's very scary when you're misinterpreting the facts

Ah you're new here, let me just fill you in on the type of poster I am, you accuse me of misinterpreting facts, I've no problems backing up my opinion;


According to the available census data from the UK (2011) Muslim men account for approximately 2.2% of the overall population.

https://www.ons.gov.uk...ralidentity/religion

https://www.ons.gov.uk...ralidentity/religion

Yet according to available data from the UK's Ministry of Justice, 12% of all convicted rapists serving time during the year 2014 were Muslim.

https://assets.publish...ales-rape-muslim.doc

https://assets.publish...ales-rape-muslim.doc

When it comes to grooming gangs the statistics are even more damning, with 75% of all convicted groomers coming from this same 2.2% sector of society.

https://www.channel4.c...f-sexual-abuse-gangs

https://www.channel4.c...f-sexual-abuse-gangs

Do I believe all Muslims are rapists? Absolutely not, of the UK's approximately 1,330,000 adult male Muslims, the vast, vast majority have never been sexually abusive, yet why they are demonstrably four times more likely to commit abuse than other members of society needs further discussion in a level headed manner.

I don't for one moment believe Muslim attitudes toward women are incapable of improving to what one could consider "Western Ideals", but it will not happen if people such as yourself continue to claim there isn't an issue.

SnakePlissken

Midlife wrote: »

100% of pedophile rings are white.

Midlife wrote: »

Of course all pedophile rings globally are not white.

That wasn't so hard now was it?