Giving Landlords Criminal Convictions

rossmores

Leave the DCC out of this debate please

beauf

Xterminator wrote: »

...
Its naive and dangerous to ignore these abuses.
...

Who is ignoring them. But it's another case of treating the symptoms but the underlying cause.

All the rogue landlord will do is close one property and open another.

These rogue landlords always seem to be one of these professional multi property landlord that seems that everyone wants.

davemie

Xterminator wrote: »

But if this measure helps save one life a year - IMO it is worth it.

While I agree with most of what you said, using the logic above means we should also ban any and all vehicles that travel at a speed faster than 5 mph from out roads as this would save far more than one life per year.

Xterminator

davemie wrote: »

While I agree with most of what you said, using the logic above means we should also ban any and all vehicles that travel at a speed faster than 5 mph from out roads as this would save far more than one life per year.

A better comparison would be making driving 5km an hour above the speed limit a criminal offense. Its called the road traffic act & we already have that law.

Fian

I think this is a sensible idea, if you want to enforce RPZ controls attaching a criminal sanction to breach of it is a good idea. I imagine it will be enforced too - as I understand it the RTB will be able to bring a prosecution for the offence and they will almost certainly do so - prosecuting someone and the associated media attention that will bring would have a powerful chilling effect on others to deter them from breaching the controls. As I abide by the RPZ controls and intend to continue to do so it will not overly bother me that breach is criminalised. In fact if it encourages others to also abide it makes it less likely there will be further legislation eroding my position in order to redress the balance.

I would love to see another offence on the other side though. Not an offence for failing to pay the rent, that is a civil issue and you can't criminalise someone who cannot afford to pay. I would like to see a tenant criminalised for failing to vacate the premises after the RTB have ruled that they are obliged to leave though. Maybe with a 14 day window after the ruling. That would make being a landlord far less risky than it is, leading to more people being willing to become landlords and thus increasing the supply. Increasing supply is what is needed.

Tombo2001

endacl wrote: »

Tenants should play by the rules as well. I'm not 'on the side' of either tenant or landlord, by the way. I'm firmly in the 'don't be a cnut' camp.

Absolutely

But all of the dialogue is about landlords; and none of the dialogue is about tenants.

This 'play bu the rules' business is not the point.

The point is that this sort of stuff is just another stick for the media to beat landlords with; thereby further discouraging people from becoming landlords.

Which makes the housing problem worse, not better.

ted1

Xterminator wrote: »

I think the people who are looking at this from a landlords perspective have to see the news stories about unscrupulous landlords putting 6 people in a bedroom, locking fire exits, faulty wiring using unregistered tradespeople, and putting peoples lives at risk.

Its naive and dangerous to ignore these abuses.

To put this in perspective as long as its a civil matter, the behavior of a tiny minority of 'landlords' will continue. I know accidental landlords will hear this and think here we go again, another nail in the coffin etc. and they (you) have a point.

But if this measure helps save one life a year - IMO it is worth it. Should legislation to ease/speed up evictions of tenants in breach of their own responsibilities be brought forward - yes it should. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

For every bad landlord there are bad tenants. But the media don’t carry those stories.

It niave and dangerous to only bring in laws which turn private houses in to social housing.

They need to balance the laws. Rents and mortgages rates would drop if evictions and repossessed were made easier.

As a landlord I have to charge more so as to cover costs for when I get a bad tenant

4ensic15

Fian wrote: »

I would like to see a tenant criminalised for failing to vacate the premises after the RTB have ruled that they are obliged to leave though. Maybe with a 14 day window after the ruling. .

There was such an offence and some tenants were convicted, then the law was changed, in 2016, and it is no longer an offence. Anything that might help landlord: bad. Anything to create misery for landlord: good.

the_syco

Xterminator wrote: »

I think the people who are looking at this from a landlords perspective have to see the news stories about unscrupulous landlords putting 6 people in a bedroom, locking fire exits, faulty wiring using unregistered tradespeople, and putting peoples lives at risk.

Its naive and dangerous to ignore these abuses.

Are you saying that this is all legal now, and these laws will somehow stop them in future?

beauf wrote: »

You have to ask why tenants are choosing to live in these places. Also where will they go when they disappear.

IMO, when the €200 a month accommodation disappears, there'll be more homeless foreigners. Also, IMO, it'll be like when they made studios illegal; more people homeless.

rossmores wrote: »

Leave the DCC out of this debate please

Why?

4ensic15 wrote: »

Fian wrote: »

I would like to see a tenant criminalised for failing to vacate the premises after the RTB have ruled that they are obliged to leave though.

There was such an offence and some tenants were convicted, then the law was changed, in 2016, and it is no longer an offence. Anything that might help landlord: bad. Anything to create misery for landlord: good.

No surprise there. Did criminalizing them help evict them in the past?

davemie

Xterminator wrote: »

A better comparison would be making driving 5km an hour above the speed limit a criminal offense. Its called the road traffic act & we already have that law.

You missed the point completely. You said you support something because it may save one life a year! In that case, let's completely ban swimming as that will stop people drowning, electricity too as that also may cause someone's death!

Graces7

Bentlee Moldy Reader wrote: »

Not having the means to pay is not an excuse, they should still be fully accountable for every cent they owe and none of this 5 euro a month nonsense. They should be forced to hand over a large propertion of any income or welfare until the LL is repaid.

No.

davemie

Fian wrote: »

Not an offence for failing to pay the rent, that is a civil issue and you can't criminalise someone who cannot afford to pay.

I may be wrong, but isn't it a criminal offense to not pay for a TV license? Not able to afford payment is not a valid excuse.

4ensic15

the_syco wrote: »

No surprise there. Did criminalizing them help evict them in the past?

It avoided evictions. The tenants left voluntarily rather than be sent to jail.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

No.

Yes, just because someone gets welfare should not and does not exempt them from being a thief.

l5auim2pjnt8qx

The government Fine Gael & Fianna Fail are a Fraud ????

The above are happy for Landlord & tenants to be at others throats as this
makes this Master Plan come to fruition as Landlords are getting pushed
out of the market with these criminal charges out against them.

1st Plan :The hope is for majority of the Landlords will get out of the rental market as the majority of these apartments/duplex's/ multidevelopments will be sold to the vulture funds.

2nd Plan : is to get rid if the left wing housing associations as these are on the
balance books :

www.threshold.ie
www.focusireland.ie
www.respond.ie
www.cluid.ie and the www.RTB.ie to name but a few and any left wing parties
affliated with them will be no more or strip backed to be a shadow of its former self.
Richard Boys Barrett ,Roisin Shorthall and other left wing Politicians or groups
that are encouraging tenants to overhold are doing the bidding for the 2 Right
wing parties,they are sitting back and laughing at them.

The Vulture/Hedge/ Funds and REITS are paying no tax for 5 years that we know of .Landlords have been baffled as to why they are getting this Malicious
backlash from the government but now we know why.

"Fundamentally" "Professional" Professionally "are the 3 words Eoghan Murphy constantly uses to get this brainwashed message to people that Professional Vulture Funds are the way to go doubling and tripling the current rents.The guy
doesn't have other housing skills apart from repetitive phrases (He is a one trip pony).

Plan 3 : To rid the large cities Dublin,Cork ,Limerick, Waterford ,Galway of
all Working Class & Social Area's. This is done like a Wave the Vulture funds get to the middle and move outwards in cities pushing people towards the midlands and far out.Mega increases in Property tax which will be implemented
in 2019 to help and to cause hugh problems between people and Councils, again governments sitting back and laughing.

This Hugh Upheaval Plan will be one of the largest inhumane and disgusting
betrayal of agressiveness of any government on its people.

Landlords wake up do don't be pressurized in selling your properties.
.

the_syco

Graces7 wrote: »

No.

Because the scum should get off scot free?

And to be very clear on this; I'm not calling people on welfare scum, I'm calling people who don't pay their rent, and get away with NO penalty; I'm calling them scum.

4ensic15 wrote: »

It avoided evictions. The tenants left voluntarily rather than be sent to jail.

I assume this was gotten rid of because it worked?

Clementine Handsome Seaport wrote: »

2nd Plan : is to get rid if the left wing housing associations as these are on the balance books

Actually, the EU are demanding that we stop playing silly games, and put them officially on the books.

Graces7

davemie wrote: »

I may be wrong, but isn't it a criminal offense to not pay for a TV license? Not able to afford payment is not a valid excuse.

Many of us get it free anyways. Not that I have a TV nor ever would

Graces7

the_syco wrote: »

Because the scum should get off scot free?
And to be very clear on this; I'm not calling people on welfare scum, I'm calling people who don't pay their rent, and get away with NO penalty; I'm calling them scum.

I hear thee although I would never soil my mouth with words like that .

I highlighted WELFARE. No one has the right to take food, light, heat etc which is what welfare payments are for,from anyone. No one. That classes
as extreme punishment
nox reminds me of the bad old Victoria days of the workus. shudders...

agree with you of course . I was once 3 days late with my rent. The private water supply literally fell apart and my emails to agent etc went unanswered. While I was getting help, I had to buy water and had not enough to pay all the rent on time. We who are old etc live on a financial tightrope.

The abusive letter I had from the owner was appalling and yes threats of eviction.
OTT . And I left. Period.

The_Conductor

Back on-topic please folk- and less of the rhetoric and name calling.
It is not acceptable to call anyone 'scum' no matter what your point of view is.
If you're not willing to discuss the specific measure this thread is purporting to discuss- in a civil manner- please don't post.

Heres Johnny

I'm surprised the govt are so lenient on non paying tenants. It's effectively theft but stealing a service seems to be accepted whereas stealing goods isn't.

I'm also surprised there seems to be no stomach for the fight from the govt as it effectively means there is no income to the landlord and as a result no income tax in the event of non payment. I've often wondered why there has not been a tax incentive for landlords to make more properties available at reasonable prices or for renters to claim tax relief to make it more affordable.

Yes folks we live in a socialist welfare state that is abused by many it's designed to protect.

The_Conductor

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I'm surprised the govt are so lenient on non paying tenants. It's effectively theft but stealing a service seems to be accepted whereas stealing goods isn't.

I'm also surprised there seems to be no stomach for the fight from the govt as it effectively means there is no income to the landlord and as a result no income tax in the event of non payment. I've often wondered why there has not been a tax incentive for landlords to make more properties available at reasonable prices or for renters to claim tax relief to make it more affordable.

Yes folks we live in a socialist welfare state that is abused by many it's designed to protect.

The government doesn't care about the tax foregone- for numerous reasons- including the simple fact that the average PAYE taxpayer out there- is paying a smidgeon under double the tax they were paying in 2007- between headline PAYE tax, USC, PRSI etc etc I.e.- while smallscale landlords may be paying tax at up to 52% of the gross rental income (presuming no deductibles)- they are small fish compared with the great unwashed hoardes out there who are also being crucified.

Landlords- are a convenient scapegoat- and a wonderful whipping boy- its a simple sell to the great unwashed public to flog them for whatever they're worth- and to put the ills of society at their door. Its far less palatable- to try to explain to the average taxpayer- that they *have* to pay such remarkably high tax rates (we're even higher than many Nordic countries- with our higher rate taxes kicking in at far lower levels- for the average tax payer)- than it is- to point at a small scale landlord (and keep in mind even now over 62% of all rental units belong to landlords with 3 or fewer units)- and play the blame game.

Playing the blame game- is far easier- than actually sitting down and coming up with coherent policies- as long as you make sure that your bogeyman is held in such disregard that the media and others aren't going to actually sit down and dissect the actual facts of the situation- and if someone does- well, just paint them as a right-wing looney, and you're sorted.

Its an ultimate heads I win, tails you loose, situation. The ultimate looser- will of course be the tenant- however, once again- this will be someone else's problem- even if the same parties are in government- they will say it was 'another government' whose policies caused the issues (using semantics- as each government are legally an entirely different entity).

And then- spin, wash, recyle...........

Graces7

Bentlee Moldy Reader wrote: »

Yes, just because someone gets welfare should not and does not exempt them from being a thief.

I did not say that, But that you cannot seriously advocate leaving folk with no food or heating by demanding welfare money.
As I said, back to Dickens days when you do that.

Bubbaclaus

Graces7 wrote: »

I did not say that, But that you cannot seriously advocate leaving folk with no food or heating by demanding welfare money.
As I said, back to Dickens days when you do that.

So you'd be ok with hard working taxpayers going without food and heat in the same scenario? Since you are only disputing the welfare part.

Interesting.

l5auim2pjnt8qx

LETTING A HOUSE IN CLONDALKIN IMMEDIATELY :

This is a desperate request that I picked up on in Daft today,

Unfortunately Stories like this will become more and more widespread as
the government has created a war between tenant & Landlord with the only choice from Landlord will be to pull out of the market in Fear that the tenant
will be the main reason for convictions in Court.

The government has been using the Landlords as punch bags through bad Media reports,rip off prices and now the threat of prison convictions as well as allowing the Vulture Funds to operate in a market using private security to eject tenants
.......again through scripted" Fundamental & professionally managed speeches
from Eoghan Murphy.

Please see below the Panic & desperation from the posting :


Search discussions...

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By Indclondalkin at 22:32, Wed April 18 2018, in Renting Questions

Hi everyone,

I am looking for some advice as i are looking for a 2-3 bed bath house in Dublin clondalkin , yet everywhere were we go they seem to pick someone else. I have references, landlord references my rent on time, and everything all documents but I haven left and he cannot do a full inbut nobody picks us. We started to think that happening it\'s very hard to find something to rent in clondalkin.

I tried a lot of things including offering a bit more than advertised, always had references with us and deposit just in case someone asked (nobody did or wanted to take in advance). Plus, we even paid the deposit up front as suggested by the agency, still not us. I am running out of ideas, especially because the supply is also limited.

Iam really are serious people but nothing seems to help..

Anyone have any advice that could help me to find something to rent in clondalkin. Because time is flying or me and my children need to find something to rent in clondalkin immedetly.

beefburrito

About time corrupt landlords were convicted...

Creaming money from people to pay off their debts from their sheer hunger and greed during the last boom.

Any one should realise that's why rent has sky rocketed...

It's to line the pockets of these loosers

l5auim2pjnt8qx

beefburrito wrote: »

About time corrupt landlords were convicted...

Creaming money from people to pay off their debts from their sheer hunger and greed during the last boom.

Any one should realise that's why rent has sky rocketed...

It's to line the pockets of these loosers

Landlords provide a service and majority at Market Value.

Tenant has a choice and a good tenant will have no problem picking
up a good property its the bad tenants that make it hard and government interference.

When people pick and choose a hotel they can pick a 2 /3/4/5 star to there preference much like picking a dwelling to live,nobody is forced into either or.

Some how this idea that has got out there that a Landlord should rent there property for free is completely delusional on part of the tenant as you will
find nothing is free in Life.....and for whatever a Landlord has for renting out there private accomodation is entirely up to them no one's elses' as the word
"PRIVATE" explains all GOT IT.

beefburrito

Clementine Handsome Seaport wrote: »

Landlords provide a service and majority at Market Value.

Tenant has a choice and a good tenant will have no problem picking
up a good property its the bad tenants that make it hard and government interference.

When people pick and choose a hotel they can pick a 2 /3/4/5 star to there preference much like picking a dwelling to live,nobody is forced into either or.

Some how this idea that has got out there that a Landlord should rent there property for free is completely delusional on part of the tenant as you will
find nothing is free in Life.....and for whatever a Landlord has for renting out there private accomodation is entirely up to them no one's elses' as the word
"PRIVATE" explains all GOT IT.

Well one takes the gamble they should burn the candle...

That's includes unfair landlords, I won't expose in detail how it worked during the 90's I'll get red carded, because members who could be effected by this will cry out to the mods..

A tenant could refuse to pay rent or only pay a percentage if there was dampness, poor mauntainence jobs etc....

50 Euro a week is enough for a room in a dwelling which is warm,dry and draft free.....

davemie

beefburrito wrote: »

50 Euro a week is enough for a room in a dwelling which is warm,dry and draft free.....

Average three bed house, with let's just say no overheads and 50% tax.

50 * 3 bed rooms * 52 weeks * 20 year mortgage less 50% tax = 78,000 which is obviously the average price of a three bed house in Ireland.

DubCount

beefburrito wrote: »

About time corrupt landlords were convicted...

Creaming money from people to pay off their debts from their sheer hunger and greed during the last boom.

Any one should realise that's why rent has sky rocketed...

It's to line the pockets of these loosers

Convicting corrupt landlords - of course. Giving a criminal conviction to a landlord who is found to have made a genuine mistake with issuing a notice of rental increase - thats nuts. Putting administrative errors in the same category as packing 60 people into a 3 bedroom semi is wrong and counterproductive.

Landlords are not creaming money. I recently did a post called "Landlord Maths" just to show how hard it is to make money as a small private landlord.

The most significant cause of sky-rocketing rents is the treatment of non-paying and overholding tenants. Honest tenants are paying through the nose (assuming they can even find a place) because of all the landlords driven out of the market by the scam artists. It comes down to responsibility for social housing. The government (central and local) dont want responsibility for social housing - so they are happy to see someone in private rental accommodation whether they are paying the landlord or not. The problem is its getting harder to find enough fools to become landlords with the current rules of engagement. That means the fools (landlords) who are left cant house everyone who needs a home. Eventually, the government will have to supply housing directly for social housing purposes - or change the rules to get more landlords to do it for them.

l5auim2pjnt8qx

beefburrito wrote: »

Well one takes the gamble they should burn the candle...
That's includes unfair landlords, I won't expose in detail how it worked during the 90's I'll get red carded, because members who could be effected by this will cry out to the mods..

A tenant could r
efuse to pay rent or only pay a percentage if there was dampness, poor mauntainence jobs etc....

50 Euro a week is enough for a room in a dwelling which is warm,dry and draft free.....

Well if people didn't take the gamble! there wouldn't be any private dwellings
on the market and how would you think that would pan out as Social Housing
Hap schemes are heavily reliant on the Private Market.

Would you mind letting us in on what cruel world you live in to acquire reasonable
accomodation for €50 a week.

Also inform us of the 90's we all remember the grotty bedsits quite well.