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Giving Landlords Criminal Convictions

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    #122
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    amcalester wrote: »
    The problem with doing this is that any discount offered to a sitting tenant (in an RPZ) currently has to be offered to the next tenant who has done nothing to earn it/may not be as good a tenant.

    And, outside of an RPZ landlords are afraid of being caught in a newly designated RPZ with a discounted rent so are upping it to the maximum at each rent review.

    There's no incentive to a landlord to offer a discount to a good tenant.

    Its also an incentive to sell up, or substantially refurbish, if you rent is a long way off the market rate.


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    #123
    erudec
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭erudec


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    You get an address before the letting. The problem is after the tenancy has ended.The RTB won't start a case against a person with no known address.

    Only way out of that is to draw up a separate "address guarantee contract" where they have to deposit a significant sum in advance to be paid if they skip town and no address can be found.

    Or maybe it would work if you require every applicant to provide the address of a person which they guarantee will be used to contact them in the event of their being sought.

    They can't have a discrimination case against you if you don't discriminate. Ask everyone to provide sufficient information to cover you for every eventuality.


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    #124
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    erudec wrote: »
    Only way out of that is to draw up a separate "address guarantee contract" where they have to deposit a significant sum in advance to be paid if they skip town and no address can be found.

    That is one of the reasons the normal security deposit is charged. There are already complaints about the level of security deposits. There are plans being mooted to limit deposits.
    erudec wrote: »
    Or maybe it would work if you require every applicant to provide the address of a person which they guarantee will be used to contact them in the event of their being sought.
    Contracts of guarantee have to be signed by the guarantor to be enforceable.
    erudec wrote: »
    They can't have a discrimination case against you if you don't discriminate. Ask everyone to provide sufficient information to cover you for every eventuality.

    There can be indirect discrimination, which is unlawful and can happen even if everyone is asked for the same information.


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    #125
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    beauf wrote: »
    Are significant numbers of renters from those countries. I'm guessing not very many.

    Iv left to more eu people than Irish and I will continue with that. That’s both in the good days and bad days. Fair enough if your house is a bad location you will more than likely have only Irish looking but for me. Iv always had a mix of people applying


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    #126
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Iv left to more eu people than Irish and I will continue with that. That’s both in the good days and bad days. Fair enough if your house is a bad location you will more than likely have only Irish looking but for me. Iv always had a mix of people applying

    The days of only Irish looking ended about 20yrs ago.

    I meant there are probably a lot of renters where their countries legislation is worse, than Ireland.

    Be interesting to see a table of renters and LL rights compared between countries.


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    #127
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Ireland is simply moving into line with most other Western European countries. If landlords are seen to be breaking the law and illegally evicting tenants, upping rents, making threats, changing locks etc they deserve to be punished accordingly.

    And I say that as a landlord myself. For far too long Irish landlords got away with despicable treatment of tenants. Those days are over. The problem is that the housing crisis is allowing slumlords to continue to slip under the radar.

    And given that the private rented sector is rapidly growing again in Ireland after a century of decline, this is more important than ever. Good, responsible landlords should have nothing to fear.

    There are far too many LLs winging on this forum IMO. Yes, there are awful tenants but let the legislatitive process via the RTB deal with these matters.

    I suppose you have heard of the tenants evicted from their inner city overcrowded Dublin slum? Another sad story in a litany of abuse of mainly immigrant tenants desperate to secure accommodation.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/everyone-needs-to-get-the-fk-out-up-to-40-tenants-living-in-slumlike-conditions-threatened-with-eviction-36871811.html


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    #128
    l5auim2pjnt8qx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭l5auim2pjnt8qx


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Ireland is simply moving into line with most other Western European countries. If landlords are seen to be breaking the law and illegally evicting tenants, upping rents, making threats, changing locks etc they deserve to be punished accordingly.

    And I say that as a landlord myself. For far too long Irish landlords got away with despicable treatment of tenants. Those days are over. The problem is that the housing crisis is allowing slumlords to continue to slip under the radar.

    And given that the private rented sector is rapidly growing again in Ireland after a century of decline, this is more important than ever. Good, responsible landlords should have nothing to fear.

    There are far too many LLs winging on this forum IMO. Yes, there are awful tenants but let the legislatitive process via the RTB deal with these matters.

    I suppose you have heard of the tenants evicted from their inner city overcrowded Dublin slum? Another sad story in a litany of abuse of mainly immigrant tenants desperate to secure accommodation.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/everyone-needs-to-get-the-fk-out-up-to-40-tenants-living-in-slumlike-conditions-threatened-with-eviction-36871811.html

    On the contrary its the abusive tenant over the good over taxed Landlord the country is moving towards.

    Politicians and housing associations advocating for tenants to overhold and
    encouragement of non payments and a residential tenancy board set up by the pockets of Landlords and working favourably on the tenants side.This is not a
    country moving towards a western way demoracy but leaning on a side of a banana government/republic.

    Where have you ever read stories of a good Landlord in the Indo papers ? not once has it ever mentioned the Council turning a blind to the type of behaviour
    of bad Landlords as it puts the problem at the Councils doorstep , instead the councils running to the governments offices and the knee jerk reaction of the government is the setting up housing associations funding by the tax payer encouraging bad practice of tenants as the solutions.

    "Landlords have everything to fear" the housing they have worked hard all there life to be simply taking off them in a move towards Vulture funds controlling the housing market. "When is this madness going to stop" with the persecution of Governments past & present of its citizens and playing them off of each other.


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    #129
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    There has been a total and abject failure of the current government and previous governments to provide adequate social housing, which if a decent programme was put in place would take huge pressure off an utterly dysfunctional private rented sector. Housing is a basic social need as well as a commodity and an asset. The govt don’t care about this country functioning as a society, but only as an economy. Therein lies the nub of the problem.

    And the housing crisis is seriously eroding our economic competitiveness. But lay the blame on the policy makers and their utter inaction (as they don’t see any votes in those in dire housing need, only those whose property prices are on the massive increase). Utterly cynical.

    Direct your ire at the policy makers and their inability to develop a properly functioning housing system and private rented sector like you see in many continental European countries, not on a few bad tenants who have abused the system. For far too long landlords utterly abused the system and their tenants rights and many continue to do so given the dire housing shortage in Dublin.

    Honestly, this forum really does seem like a constant landlord whingefest.


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    #130
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    There has been a total and abject failure of the current government and previous governments to provide adequate social housing, which if a decent programme was put in place would take huge pressure off an utterly dysfunctional private rented sector. Housing is a basic social need as well as a commodity and an asset. The govt don’t care about this country functioning as a society, but only as an economy. Therein lies the nub of the problem.

    And the housing crisis is seriously eroding our economic competitiveness. But lay the blame on the policy makers and their utter inaction (as they don’t see any votes in those in dire housing need, only those whose property prices are on the massive increase). Utterly cynical.

    Direct your ire at the policy makers and their inability to develop a properly functioning housing system and private rented sector like you see in many continental European countries, not on a few bad tenants who have abused the system. For far too long landlords utterly abused the system and their tenants rights and many continue to do so given the dire housing shortage in Dublin.

    Honestly, this forum really does seem like a constant landlord whingefest.

    Based on the above comment and your earlier comment I assume you have never been stung by a tenant who refuses to leave your property while not paying rent. You might correct me if I am wrong.

    If the above happened to you would you still hold the view that this forum is becoming a "constant landlord whingefest"


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    #131
    l5auim2pjnt8qx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭l5auim2pjnt8qx


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    There has been a total and abject failure of the current government and previous governments to provide adequate social housing, which if a decent programme was put in place would take huge pressure off an utterly dysfunctional private rented sector. Housing is a basic social need as well as a commodity and an asset. The govt don’t care about this country functioning as a society, but only as an economy. Therein lies the nub of the problem.

    And the housing crisis is seriously eroding our economic competitiveness. But lay the blame on the policy makers and their utter inaction (as they don’t see any votes in those in dire housing need, only those whose property prices are on the massive increase). Utterly cynical.

    Direct your ire at the policy makers and their inability to develop a properly functioning housing system and private rented sector like you see in many continental European countries, not on a few bad tenants who have abused the system. For far too long landlords utterly abused the system and their tenants rights and many continue to do so given the dire housing shortage in Dublin.

    Honestly, this forum really does seem like a constant landlord whingefest.

    I agree with your first paragraph but its more of a rant than relevance to the issue.

    Just to pick up on the the western market Berlin & Hamburg are experiencing a hugh rental shortage and also Barcelona and other major cities in Spain and Germany is a country with possibly has the biggest rental Laws in Europe.

    Ireland has had long enough time to introduce a proper functioning rental market as the market was quite buoyant in the mid - late nineties and the early 00's this is just bigger this time around.I don't see any evidence to back up your statement that Landlords have been abusing the system apart from the grotty bedsits of the 80's,90's....but a least these were a choice for students and mostly single men with mental health issues.

    F/g and Labour agreed when they came into term that rent/caps/laws or any
    interference from governments was seen as a bad move for a productive healthy rising economy so why the U- turn.Ireland is booming and so was its private rental sector ,these are not the signs of a country eroding its confidence to outsiders but a sign the government have shown they are incapable of steering
    a country in Bloom .


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    #132
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    I always wonder about the "european" laws on renting and how this is seen as the miracle solution.

    Estate agents and landlords in NL would absolutely ride ya given half a chance when I lived there.


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    #133
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Ireland is simply moving into line with most other Western European countries.....

    Its only done it for tenants rights.

    We've done nothing, and in real terms moved backwards, further out of line with Europe on LL rights.


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    #134
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    The Student wrote: »
    JupiterKid wrote: »
    There has been a total and abject failure of the current government and previous governments to provide adequate social housing, which if a decent programme was put in place would take huge pressure off an utterly dysfunctional private rented sector. Housing is a basic social need as well as a commodity and an asset. The govt don’t care about this country functioning as a society, but only as an economy. Therein lies the nub of the problem.

    And the housing crisis is seriously eroding our economic competitiveness. But lay the blame on the policy makers and their utter inaction (as they don’t see any votes in those in dire housing need, only those whose property prices are on the massive increase). Utterly cynical.

    Direct your ire at the policy makers and their inability to develop a properly functioning housing system and private rented sector like you see in many continental European countries, not on a few bad tenants who have abused the system. For far too long landlords utterly abused the system and their tenants rights and many continue to do so given the dire housing shortage in Dublin.

    Honestly, this forum really does seem like a constant landlord whingefest.

    Based on the above comment and your earlier comment I assume you have never been stung by a tenant who refuses to leave your property while not paying rent. You might correct me if I am wrong.

    If the above happened to you would you still hold the view that this forum is becoming a "constant landlord whingefest"


    Exactly its easy to make comments about other peoples losses when there not yours. Would like to see it as a criminal offence to not pay rent that was due


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    #135
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Exactly its easy to make comments about other peoples losses when there not yours. Would like to see it as a criminal offence to not pay rent that was due

    It is an offence not to pay rent when it is due. Good luck with trying to get anyone charged with it.


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    #136
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Fian


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    It is an offence not to pay rent when it is due. Good luck with trying to get anyone charged with it.

    and what offence would that be? If it were you would have private prosecutions left right and centre.

    Failing to pay rent is breach of contract and therefore unlawful. That'snot the same thing as criminal.

    In theory if you could prove a tenant signed a lease intending to break it/not pay rent that could amount to criminal behaviour. Of course there is no reality to being in a position to prove that intention.


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    #137
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fian wrote: »
    and what offence would that be? If it were you would have private prosecutions left right and centre.

    Failing to pay rent is breach of contract and therefore unlawful. That'snot the same thing as criminal.

    In theory if you could prove a tenant signed a lease intending to break it/not pay rent that could amount to criminal behaviour. Of course there is no reality to being in a position to prove that intention.

    Theft. No different to going into a shop and helping yourself to the contents of the till.


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    #138
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Bentlee Moldy Reader wrote: »
    Theft. No different to going into a shop and helping yourself to the contents of the till.

    Pretty sure it doesn't meet the legislative definition of theft. Continue with your free legal advice though...


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    #139
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Fian


    Bentlee Moldy Reader wrote: »
    Theft. No different to going into a shop and helping yourself to the contents of the till.

    Theft involves the appropriation of property, not failure to pay a debt.

    The difference between your example and failing to pay rent is that yours involves someone taking the property of another person (the money in the till) whereas failing to pay rent involves not paying over your money that you have contracted to pay. There is a difference and it is legally significant.


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    #140
    erudec
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭erudec


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    That is one of the reasons the normal security deposit is charged. There are already complaints about the level of security deposits. There are plans being mooted to limit deposits.

    Contracts of guarantee have to be signed by the guarantor to be enforceable.


    There can be indirect discrimination, which is unlawful and can happen even if everyone is asked for the same information.

    I guess you would have to include a clause asking the signatory to inform you within 14 days if they believe that the contract violates any of their enumerated rights to non-discrimination. In which case mediation will be sought from the RTB, or talks will ensue to find a way negate the suggested discriminatory effects of the contract.

    The clause will ask the tenant to contact free legal aid or maybe citizens info or such like. The clock stops running from the day they seek an appointment, and starts again as soon as an appointment is provided, provided there are no undue delays, and weekly updates are given while they are still waiting for a meeting with the free advisors.

    I presume that would cover you to some extent if the 14 day period passes without complaint. It would also presumably damage their tribunal case for discrimination if there's no evidence that they made use of the clause within the notified period.


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    #141
    erudec
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭erudec


    When did the anti-discrimination law come in? I thought I was over a decade ago.

    Are they still coming up with surprising new precedents and novel interpretations? Usually laws tend to settle down to a relatively stable interpretation after decades and hundreds of cases.

    Any lawyers able to comment?


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    #142
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Fian wrote: »
    and what offence would that be? If it were you would have private prosecutions left right and centre.

    .

    Section 7 of the Theft and Fraud offences Act.


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    #143
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Section 7 of the Theft and Fraud offences Act.

    There is a dishonesty requirement there so it's not a criminal offence not to pay rent per se. Someone could quite honestly not be in a position to pay rent.

    DPP tend to prosecute on very tried and tested grounds, the example being the use (or lack there of) of syringe legislation. I see your point but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest their is a criminal offence of not paying rent.


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    #144
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    There is a dishonesty requirement there so it's not a criminal offence not to pay rent per se. Someone could quite honestly not be in a position to pay rent.

    DPP tend to prosecute on very tried and tested grounds, the example being the use (or lack there of) of syringe legislation. I see your point but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest their is a criminal offence of not paying rent.

    If the person can't pay the rent due to a mix up at their bank it would likely not be dishonest but if someone, knowing well they can't afford the rent, or who has the money but won't pay continues to live at the property it is dishonest.


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    #145
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If the person can't pay the rent due to a mix up at their bank it would likely not be dishonest but if someone, knowing well they can't afford the rent, or who has the money but won't pay continues to live at the property it is dishonest.

    I agree with you there, although I think the arguments would be more nuanced, but for the sake of example fair enough.


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    #146
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I agree with you there, although I think the arguments would be more nuanced, but for the sake of example fair enough.

    The DPP actively avoids prosecuting any kind of quasi civil offence. I do know one prosecution where it was use, but not in a rent situation.


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