Mother has to go into care

John6008

My elderly mother has to go into care . She owns the family home out right , do I have to sell it ? It’s left to me and I don’t want to sell it ?
How much will I have to pay for the care will the government take all the money ? Any help will be great ?

Riskymove

John6008 wrote: »

My elderly mother has to go into care . She owns the family home out right , do I have to sell it ? It’s left to me and I don’t want to sell it ?
How much will I have to pay for the care will the government take all the money ? Any help will be great ?

Some info here

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

Henry Ford III

Riskymove wrote: »

Some info here

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

Fair Deal is a bit of a journey for many. I found it pretty challenging when I set it in motion for a relation. Ended up going through a long and involved appeals procedure which terminated with the Ombudsman (we won).

In summary HSE take:-

1/. 80% of income. Pensions, investment income, rents etc.
2/. 7.5% p.a. of all investments excluding property (less €36k single or €72k couple).
3/. 7.5% p.a. of the value of any property to a max. of 3 years (22.5%).

What it means in reality:-

1/. There'll be relatively little income left for spending but all Nursing Home Costs will be met. They are pretty expensive.

2/. This can be pretty sore since few/any investments are yielding anything like 7.5% net.

3/. The property doesn't have to be sold, but it makes little sense to rent it since 80% of that will be claimed by HSE.

368100

Thats mad. Theres lots of people in nursing homes that are mentally fit and mobile but for some reason or another they cant live by themselves.

Basically by the HSE taking so much, its limiting any activity outside the home so people are stuck there to see out their days with little or no exposure to outside world.

John6008

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

NIMAN

John6008 wrote: »

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

Happens in most countries I'm afraid. Way of the world.
Might be facing it in my own family in the not too distant future.

But I suppose is it fair to expect the taxpayer to look after elderly parents at €1500 per week when they have their own assets to pay for it? Thats another argument I suppose.

Mrs OBumble

John6008 wrote: »

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

Screwed? Rubbish.

You work to prpvide for yourself for the rest of your life. Your assets are used to provide for your end of life care. Nanny state picks up the tab only when you cannot afford it any more.

The only people unhappy with this are the grasping kids who want to inherit rather than work for themselves.

ANXIOUS

368100 wrote: »

Thats mad. Theres lots of people in nursing homes that are mentally fit and mobile but for some reason or another they cant live by themselves.

Basically by the HSE taking so much, its limiting any activity outside the home so people are stuck there to see out their days with little or no exposure to outside world.

Nail on the head here. A lot of people that don't need to be in a nursing home but with family not willing g to support like they would've done in yester year they end up in a home.

Wesser

If you think you are being screwed then pay the 1500e a week to fund the nursing home.

anewme

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

Is that 80% of his private pension or the state pension?

So if you've no assets. Ie no house, no savings and no private pension from your years of work all you have to pay is €194.64 if you are on the maximum con state pension and your family don't have to top this up in anyway?

anewme

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Is that 80% of his private pension or the state pension?

So if you've no assets. Ie no house, no savings and no private pension from your years of work all you have to pay is €194.64 if you are on the maximum con state pension and your family don't have to top this up in anyway?

State pension.

Yep that’s right.

Why would the family have to top it up?

ANXIOUS

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Nail on the head here. A lot of people that don't need to be in a nursing home but with family not willing g to support like they would've done in yester year they end up in a home.

And the family still want to keep hold of any property owned by their parent. Can’t have it both ways.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

State pension.

Yep that’s right.

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

anewme

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

scooby77

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

Except that any assets disposed of in last five years can be chased...and who plans 5 years ahead to be in a nursing home?

anewme

Sorry and the last question on selecting a home, you are given a list of places(public and private) that accept fair deal.

Accepting it is one thing, but getting places are another. There is an extreme shortage of places in Dublin so someone who lived there all their life may end up in Kildare, Wicklow etc.

iamwhoiam

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

There are definitely some positives in a care home for some . A member of my family went from being alone in a big house , not sleeping due to fear , sitting for hours and hours doing nothing , struggling with hygiene and her diet
She went into a home with company , activities , help with hygiene , her food beautifully cooked , she felt safe and warm and happy .

Squatter

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

I understand that the HSE's means assessors can go back for up to five years to check any significant gifts or other 'interesting' disposals of cash or other assets.

They weren't born yesterday!

Edit - as Scooby has just posted.

Wesser

anewme wrote: »

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

anewme

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There are definitely some positives in a care home from some . A member of my family went from being alone in a big house , not sleeping due to fear , sitting for hours and hours doing nothing , struggling with hygiene and her diet
She went into a home with company , activities , help with hygiene , her food beautifully cooked , she felt safe and warm and happy .

Apologies.

Of course it is better in a lot of cases.

I’m talking more about facing the fact that at the end of your days you end up in a care home and even specifically in my own case, where my Dad has dementia and it’s very sad to see.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

Why am I lucky that I don’t have to pay for my Dads care.?

Children are not responsible for their parents.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Why am I lucky that I don’t have to pay for my Dads care.?

Children are not responsible for their parents.

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

Wesser

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

Sorry not sure what you mean.

are you saying children’s assets should be used to pay for their parents care.

That’s not right legally or morally.

shar01

Just be aware not everything is covered by the Fair Deal Scheme. Some medications are not on the medical card and there's usually a contribution towards entertainment and activities.

We were lucky my grandmother had a little bit of savings that took care of expenses not covered by Fair Deal but those savings were diminishing and eventually we'd have to make up the shortfall.

Nermal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

It's a disincentive to saving. Everyone should pay the same.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Sorry not sure what you mean.

are you saying children’s assets should be used to pay for their parents care.

That’s not right legally or morally.

The parents own assets should be used by themselves to cover their nursing home care.

You said "Children are not responsible for their parents.". I say that is right legally, but morally wrong. Why should the child expect to get the parents assets rather than use them to care for the parent?

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

Sorry my Dad has been estranged from the family for over 35 years due to personal circumstances.

So he didn’t actually pay for any of my needs at all, I paid for my own.

The decision was made by a hospital that he needs full time medical care.

He is a actually a ward of the state.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

The parents own assets should be used by themselves to cover their nursing home care.

You said "Children are not responsible for their parents.". I say that is right legally, but morally wrong. Why should the child expect to get the parents assets rather than use them to care for the parent?

The person is saying that I personally should pay for my Dads care, out of my own assets not my Dads, as he has none, ie, I should sell my house to pay for my Dads care.

Not right, morally or legally in my opinion and won’t be happening.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

You're right it very was poorly phrased. It's a light in a very dark time. Estate planning should be for everyone, even simple things like the small gift excemption should be used.