Mother has to go into care

Wesser

anewme wrote: »

Wesser wrote: »

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

Sorry my Dad has been estranged from the family for over 35 years due to personal circumstances.

So he didn’t actually pay for any of my needs at all, I paid for my own.

The decision was made by a hospital that he needs full time medical care.

He is a actually a ward of the state.

Ok. But most of the time, parents pay for the children's needs . For example whe n they are babies they pay for them and rear them and care for them etc etc. So maybe your case is different
My point is that it's still a really really good deal.
In the vast majority of cases children are keen to meet their parents needs as they get older. I'm.nkt saying that this isn't the case with you.
My.point is that in the absence of fair deal, NH costs would be unsurrmontable to the ordinary man and it is a very genourous deal which will not exist in its current form in the future.

Yes a parent should use their own assetts to pay for their own care. It belongs to the parent not the child.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

The person is saying that I personally should pay for my Dads care, out of my own assets not my Dads, as he has none, ie, I should sell my house to pay for my Dads care.

Not right, morally or legally in my opinion and won’t be happening

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

Masala

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

ANXIOUS

scooby77 wrote: »

Except that any assets disposed of in last five years can be chased...and who plans 5 years ahead to be in a nursing home?

Everyone should plan as far as possible in the future and expect likely outcomes. Granted there are always cases where it can't be foreseen.

ANXIOUS

Masala wrote: »

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

I've just read it's 5

Wesser

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

anewme

Masala wrote: »

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

No, someone else said 5, so that may be right.

Was sure it was eight.

Must check the osoerwirk and will update.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

Wesser wrote: »

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

Sorry I’m not misunderstanding the post.

He clearly states that I am lucky that I or a family member don’t have to contribute personally.

That’s what it says.

Nermal

Wesser wrote: »

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

It should be paid for out of general taxation. Taking it from assets disincentives saving for retirement, which we want to encourage.

Masala

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

Theres info here on Fair Deal scheme. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

"Income and assets
Income includes any earnings, pension income, social welfare benefits or allowances, rental income, income from holding an office or directorship, income from fees, commissions, dividends or interest, or any income which you have deprived yourself of in the 5 years leading up to your application.

An asset is any material property or wealth, including property or wealth outside of the State. Assets are divided into two distinct categories, namely cash assets and relevant assets.

Cash assets include savings, stocks, shares and securities. Relevant assets include all forms of property other than cash assets, for example a person’s principal residence or land. In both cases, the assessment will also look at assets that you have deprived yourself of since applying for State support or in the 5 years before the application.

The assessment will not take into account the income of other relatives such as your children.

Your contribution to care

Having looked at your income and assets, the Financial Assessment will work out your contribution to care. You will contribute:

80% of your income (less deductions below) and
7.5% of the value of any assets per annum (5% if the application was made before 25 July 2013)
However, the first €36,000 of your assets, or €72,000 for a couple, will not be counted at all in the Financial Assessment.

Where your assets include land and property, the 7.5% contribution based on such assets may be deferred and paid to Revenue after your death. This is known as the Nursing Home Loan. You can read more about the repayment of the Nursing Home Loan in the FAQs on the Nursing Homes Support Scheme (pdf).

Your principal residence will only be included in the financial assessment for the first 3 years of your time in care. This is known as the 22.5% or ‘three-year cap' (the cap is 15% for applications made before 25 July 2013). It means that you will pay a 7.5% contribution based on your principal residence for a maximum of 3 years regardless of the length of time you spend in nursing home care."

Kristopherus

anewme wrote: »

No, someone else said 5, so that may be right.

Was sure it was eight.

Must check the osoerwirk and will update.

All the info you need is here. The scheme is officially known as the Nursing Home Support Scheme. Just be aware that it's a long & hefty read.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

There’s not many children that could afford pay 1500 net a week for their parent well as paying their own mortgage, and running their own lives and expenses.

Unfortunately I’m not quite in that earnings bracket.so fair play to you.

Best I can do is a few quid clothes and bits and bobs not covered and a couple of visits when I finish work. I don’t begrudge either, wouldn’t change anything about my life either, it’s made me who I am.

Wesser

Nermal wrote: »

Wesser wrote: »

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

It should be paid for out of general taxation. Taking it from assets disincentives saving for retirement, which we want to encourage.

Fair deal IS general taxation!!!!
Just packaged under another name.
Is this man's case general taxation is paying 1420 e a week and the patient is paying 80e.

anewme

Masala wrote: »

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

I was just going to say that.

That’s a very fair point.

I pay 3k a month tax to the welfare state, reckon I’ve put in over a million so far in tax, my Dad was not a high earner so he would not have paid that much, but still a considerable amount.

Wesser

Masala wrote: »

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

If he is going into long term care then he has no further need for the assert in its current form and the equity in the assert should be used to provide for his needs e.g. safety etc.
The only people who loose out are those who are disinherited by 22 % but mostly they are satisfied by the knowledge that their father is well looked after and they dint have to pay 1500 a week for same.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

Fair deal IS general taxation!!!!
Just packaged under another name.
Is this man's case general taxation is paying 1420 e a week and the patient is paying 80e.

My Dad paid his taxes all his life and I’ve contributed probably paid over a million.

My mum worked full time too so she’s paid her tax.

So our family have paid more than enough through tax to have a credit built up.

Not sure where you are getting 80 a week either. It’s 80% of his pension plus other bits - it works out at 194 a week paid. There 20 quid left out of his pension. The care cost is 1k a week.

Are you also proposing that poor people who get sick should not have medical attention?

elperello

Fair Deal is a selective inheritance tax.

If your parent is healthy up until they pass away you inherit their entire estate.
If they are in a nursing home for three years 22.5% of the property value and 22.5% of the cash assets are deducted.
Take as an example a person with €200,000 property and €100,000 cash the HSE take €67,500 from the inheritance.
In the case of the healthy parent there is no deduction from the inheritance.

Bubbaclaus

anewme wrote: »

My Dad paid his taxes all his life and I’ve contributed probably paid over a million.

My mum worked full time too so she’s paid her tax.

So our family have paid more than enough through tax to have a credit built up.

Not sure where you are getting 80 a week either. It’s 80% of his pension plus other bits - it works out at 194 a week paid. There 20 quid left out of his pension. The care cost is 1k a week.

Are you also proposing that poor people who get sick should not have medical attention?

Just jumping in to the thread to say you are all over the place here and completely misunderstanding other posts.

anewme

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Just jumping in to the thread to say you are all over the place here and completely misunderstanding other posts.

No I’m not misunderstanding anything.

The person clearly said that I am lucky that I or my family dont have to contribute personally.

My response is that children are not responsible for their parents.

Nothing all over the place about that.

There’s no misunderstanding there whatsoever.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.

I read that as I am very lucky that I or a family member don’t have to PERSONALLY contribute to my Fathers care.

To me personally means , me personally out of my own money.

What exactly am I misunderstanding from this?

Wesser

Wesser wrote: »

If you think you are being screwed then pay the 1500e a week to fund the nursing home.

Here in Tipperary fees range from €750 to €950 a week.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

He actually repeats it again for good measure.

I read that as in I should pay.

Not sure what else you could deduce from this.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Here in Tipperary fees range from €750 to €950 a week.

Dublin ranges from about 1000 to 1500.

Nermal

elperello wrote: »

Fair Deal is a selective inheritance tax.

Bingo. In this very thread we have posters saying not to bother saving because of the risk the state will take your assets anyway. This is the exact opposite of the behaviour we should be encouraging.

Wesser

anewme wrote: »

Wesser wrote: »

Fair deal IS general taxation!!!!
Just packaged under another name.
Is this man's case general taxation is paying 1420 e a week and the patient is paying 80e.

My Dad paid his taxes all his life and I’ve contributed probably paid over a million.

My mum worked full time too so she’s paid her tax.

So our family have paid more than enough through tax to have a credit built up.

Not sure where you are getting 80 a week either. It’s 80% of his pension plus other bits - it works out at 194 a week paid. There 20 quid left out of his pension. The care cost is 1k a week.

Are you also proposing that poor people who get sick should not have medical attention?

I thought you said that after paying 80% of his pension he had 20e left..

I am not propsing that sick people should not have medical attention. I am strongly supporting a socialised model.of healthcare where tax payers money is 're routed to those who need it. I'm a strong supporter of fair deal and I feel we are very lucky to have it. It is an extremely genourous system.

I feel you are picking on technicalities in other people's posts and throwing up objections to every point made.

. In summary I feel the fair deal is fantastic and I predict that in the future it is so fait that it will be unsustainable.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

If he is going into long term care then he has no further need for the assert in its current form and the equity in the assert should be used to provide for his needs e.g. safety etc.
The only people who loose out are those who are disinherited by 22 % but mostly they are satisfied by the knowledge that their father is well looked after and they dint have to pay 1500 a week for same.

He’s worked his whole life to leave something for his children. The house was bought out of after tax income as pointed out.

He’s clearly contributed his 1500 numerous times over.


The situation would not arise that the family would have to pay 1500 a week not sure why you think they should be grateful for that as it’s not relevant.

If the mother wants to transfer HER house to her children at any point in her life, she’s perfectly and Legally entitled to do so.

The point I would also make is that a lot of us, (working class) and I’m speaking for myself here, are quite bad at planning, be it estate planning, wills etc.

It’s natural for people not to want to think ahead to sudden death or that they could end up in a care home. Also, we don’t realise the value of the assets we have and should always seek legal/taxation advice on how best to handle our after tax assets.

elperello

Nermal wrote: »

Bingo. In this very thread we have posters saying not to bother saving because of the risk the state will take your assets anyway. This is the exact opposite of the behaviour we should be encouraging.

A real "fair deal" would find a better way to spread out the cost of looking after less healthy older people.
Rather than making it a direct charge on family members all of society could make a contribution.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

I thought you said that after paying 80% of his pension he had 20e left..

I am not propsing that sick people should not have medical attention. I am strongly supporting a socialised model.of healthcare where tax payers money is 're routed to those who need it. I'm a strong supporter of fair deal and I feel we are very lucky to have it. It is an extremely genourous system.

I feel you are picking on technicalities in other people's posts and throwing up objections to every point made.

. In summary I feel the fair deal is fantastic and I predict that in the future it is so fait that it will be unsustainable.

I don’t have exact figures, all I know is that he pays around 194 in total a week and is left with 20, could be 19.As another poster pointed out not all fees are covered by that so 20 could be for an activity or medication not covered.

I’m not sure how I feel about fair deal overall. For my Dad it worked out really well. So that’s not my argument and I’ve never said otherwise.

Suggesting that children should pay for their parents fees personally is a ridiculous argument and very unfair. It’s also not a technicality.

My original post stated that my Dad sailed through it, while a colleague s parent struggled.

What it’s really brought home to me is that sometimes you are better off having nothing.? Of course that’s not the right way to think but in the current set up it’s a correct assumption. In my opinion, it’s a very imbalanced system and as others have said is not an incentive to save.

It’s a question I’ve asked myself probably due to my own current circumstances. These are the type of situations that make you question everything.

We work our asses off sometimes in boring jobs to pay the bills and fund the pension, too busy stockpiling assets and cash for our retirement or to pass in when really all we are doing is funding our nursing home or in my case boosting the states coffers(Im single so my estate will be fleeced) it’s there anyway so my nursing home is covered if need be, so I’m not afraid now to enjoy the fruits of my labor. It’s finding the right balance.

The person who tagged this a selective health tax is bang on.

Going through the process recently really opened my eyes. I think it’s unfair people taking swipes at the OP as a greedy child only worried about being done out of his inheritance without knowing anything of his circumstances.

My learnings are:

1. Consider legal, and taxation advice irrespective of your age. Don’t feel guilty about doing this.
2. Make the most of your life when and while you can. Don’t be afraid to spend your money. You can’t take it with you. It’s hard to get a fine line between saving for your retirements and living.
3. Work to live.
4.Forgive the small stuff - in the end it does not matter.

Bubbaclaus

elperello wrote: »

A real "fair deal" would find a better way to spread out the cost of looking after less healthy older people.
Rather than making it a direct charge on family members all of society could make a contribution.

That's exactly what the current fair deal system is...