2018 World Championship

AnneFrank

sligeach wrote: »

I meant overhype and he's not the greatest ever player. Second best... probably.

Both Hendry and Davis disagree with you

Inviere

melon_collie wrote: »

Yep. From the two most disliked players on the circuit . . . .

I can understand why Ronnie has his detractors, is Carter not liked on the circuit? I never really warmed to him myself, but I'd be interested to hear why others on the circuit don't like him

Peter File wrote: »

The journeyman beats Ronnie. What a hateful man he is

Which one?

With Ronnie & Selby gone, I've an eye on Mark Allen for the title. Although I'd love to see either Ding or Higgins take it this year, and for an outside, Kyren Wilson is someone I'd like to see step up.

Joe_ Public

AnneFrank wrote: »

Barry Hearn is a numptie,just like his son.Pity Ronnie is gone but history tells us not many players past 40 win the worlds

Have been loads actually though not so much in recent years.

Frankie Lee

Inviere wrote: »

I can understand why Ronnie has his detractors, is Carter not liked on the circuit? I never really warmed to him myself, but I'd be interested to hear why others on the circuit don't like him



Which one?

With Ronnie & Selby gone, I've an eye on Mark Allen for the title. Although I'd love to see either Ding or Higgins take it this year, and for an outside, Kyren Wilson is someone I'd like to see step up.

I'd be happiest seeing Ding, Allen or Williams winning. I've always had an irrational dislike of Ali Carter and Anthony McGill so hoping they don't go far.

Brae100

sligeach wrote: »

I meant overhype and he's not the greatest ever player. Second best... probably.

Hendry, Davis, Higgins, Williams, Doherty, Trump, Ding, Hawkins, Selby, Bingham, etc. etc. have all said that Ronnie is the best player ever. But you know best.

Joe_ Public

Inviere wrote: »

I can understand why Ronnie has his detractors, is Carter not liked on the circuit? I never really warmed to him myself, but I'd be interested to hear why others on the circuit don't like him

Not sure he’s among the most disliked, there’s a chap by name of Matt Selt who would be well ahead of him, but he does have a tendency of getting in verbal scraps with opponents. Maybe a bit of the Ian Poulters about him.

sligeach

AnneFrank wrote: »

Both Hendry and Davis disagree with you

BBC put Hendry on the spot and I believe he doesn't believe O'Sullivan is the greatest. What do you expect him to say? "No, I'm the greatest"? I find it really irritating how they gush and almost lick O'Sullivan's @r$€;. He's English, so of course he's the greatest. I remember the same $h1t with Jimmy White when he would play Hendry. Completely biased. Hendry in his pomp was far better than O'Sullivan.

sligeach

I'd like to see Allen, Trump win or Carter, given all he's been through. The tournament will be much more enjoyable now.

Pighead

sligeach wrote: »

BBC put Hendry on the spot and I believe he doesn't believe O'Sullivan is the greatest. What do you expect him to say? "No, I'm the greatest"? I find it really irritating how they gush and almost lick O'Sullivan's @r$€;. He's English, so of course he's the greatest. I remember the same $h1t with Jimmy White when he would play Hendry. Completely biased. Hendry in his pomp was far better than O'Sullivan.

It's completely fair to have the opinion that Hendry was better than O'Sullivan but you have an obvious dislike for Ronnie which comes across very clearly in your posts. You don't seem willing to give Ronnie any credit. You're well within your rights to think Hendry is the all time number one but you have to give O'Sullivan at least some credit. The guy is one of the best in the history of the game to pick up a cue and is poetry in motion when he's on form. A joy to watch. You can say something positive about him without having to change your opinion that Hendry is the GOAT!

mdwexford

Brae100 wrote: »

Hendry, Davis, Higgins, Williams, Doherty, Trump, Ding, Hawkins, Selby, Bingham, etc. etc. have all said that Ronnie is the best player ever. But you know best.

I think it's pretty clear Hendry is the best.

The fact he still to this day holds the ranking titles record is insane considering there are so many more tournaments now. He has two more world titles than Ronnie which is the main benchmark.

The only thing Ronnie has over him is longevity really.

Ronnie v Davis for second best is a closer argument imo.

Frankie Lee

mdwexford wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear Hendry is the best.

The fact he still to this day holds the ranking titles record is insane considering there are so many more tournaments now. He has two more world titles than Ronnie which is the main benchmark.

The only thing Ronnie has over him is longevity really.

Ronnie v Davis for second best is a closer argument imo.

With John Higgins a close 4th and in the equation for 2nd if he wins the WC this year.

zuutroy

mdwexford wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear Hendry is the best.

The fact he still to this day holds the ranking titles record is insane considering there are so many more tournaments now.

Ronnie has played 10 less ranking tournaments than Hendry. 199 vs 189.

Also with a slight bit of bias, he played the likes of Dene O'Kane, Darren Morgan, and Nigel Bond a lot on his routes to the semis of the WC...Just saying!

The Nal

zuutroy wrote: »

Ronnie has played 10 less ranking tournaments than Hendry. 199 vs 189.

Also with a slight bit of bias, he played the likes of Dene O'Kane, Darren Morgan, and Nigel Bond a lot on his routes to the semis of the WC...Just saying!

And Ronnie faced the likes of Andy Hicks, Dave Harold, Liu Chuang, Marcus Campbell.

Im a huge fan of both players, Hendry was always my favourite, but its impossible to say whos best really. Just glad Ive been able to watch both of their careers from start to finish almost.

mdwexford

zuutroy wrote: »

Ronnie has played 10 less ranking tournaments than Hendry. 199 vs 189.

Also with a slight bit of bias, he played the likes of Dene O'Kane, Darren Morgan, and Nigel Bond a lot on his routes to the semis of the WC...Just saying!

Really, wow that is shocking to me!!
Very interesting though, always assumed Ronnie would have played far more than Hendry.

Still Worlds is where it's at and Ronnie is two behind.

If he won one more Worlds and got the ranking event record then it's a close argument I think. At the moment I can't have it myself.

Drumpot

AnneFrank wrote: »

Both Hendry and Davis disagree with you

Well you could argue that hendry can hardly say himself and they need to hype up the sport as much as possible and bigging up Ronnie stands to get more people watching.

During the 90s and early 00s I loved snooker. I remember Ken Doherty winning it and what a buzz it was back then.

From what I remember Hendry was a machine. A professionally ruthless and efficient machine. I don’t think O’Sullivans explosive style would unsettle hendry in his pomp and Hendry wouldn’t fold under pressure.

But what is probably fair to say is that O Sullivan looks to be the most naturally gifted player in the game. When he gets going he is awesome. His temperament is probably not as strong as Hendrys (or at least that’s what I always thought of him).

zuutroy

1000 centuries and more ranking tournaments and triple crowns and I'd give it to Ronnie, but as you say those who disagree will always be able to play the WC card.

With his talent he should've won 10 though, and probably would have if he wasn't a basket case for so long.

Arthur Daley

Ah that other great arguement, who was the greatest.

For me it's Ronnie. At his very best 04/08/12/13 he would take down Hendry at his best 90-96. I also still believe Hendry was a little bit lucky to win his 7 titles. Jimmy should have won two of them, but I'm a Jimmy fan. 92 and 94. You could say he made his own luck. But Hendry was a bit jammy in my view.

I don't think Ronnie was 'lucky' to win any of his 5 world titles. Nobody could touch him when he was like that. Obviously everyone had a bit of luck good or bad along the way.

Joe_ Public

Have no strong opinion either way, probably Hendrys 7 titles swings it but they were both special in their own way. Hendry greatest, Ronnie greatest talent would sound ok to me.

Interestingly though, not sure of stats off top of my head but if you consider the years when their careers overlapped, and before Hendry entered that rather sharp nosedive, Ronnie more or less held sway over him. They played one final in which I think Hendry had 8 or 9 centuries, possibly including a max iirc, which is probably the greatest snooker match ever held. That was around the golden age of snooker right there.

Frankie Lee

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Have no strong opinion either way, probably Hendrys 7 titles swings it but they were both special in their own way. Hendry greatest, Ronnie greatest talent would sound ok to me.

Interestingly though, not sure of stats off top of my head but if you consider the years when their careers overlapped, and before Hendry entered that rather sharp nosedive, Ronnie more or less held sway over him. They played one final in which I think Hendry had 8 or 9 centuries, possibly including a max iirc, which is probably the greatest snooker match ever held. That was around the golden age of snooker right there.

I can't find that match on cue tracker, the 99 final and the 02 semi final are the nearest thing to it and but the standard of both were astronomical.

The semi final between Ding and Selby last year was probably the highest standard of snooker in a world championship I can recall in recent years especially with the quality of the safety while Allen and Higgins last year was ridiculous from an attacking point of view.

edit: 1997 charity challenge final is the one.

eric hoone

I'm starting to think Ronnie might have a problem winning another world championship, ever since he missed the pink to the middle against Selby the end of the first days play of the 2014 final, he hasn't come close

Peter File

Williams should steamroll Milkins this evening and Wilson should ease to victory tonight

The Nal

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Jmmy should have won two of them, but I'm a Jimmy fan. 92 and 94. You could say he made his own luck. But Hendry was a bit jammy in my view..

I still occasionally shudder and twitch when the memory of Jimmy missing that black off the spot in 94 enters my head at random times. Childhood trauma.

Love Jimmy but it has to be said, he bottled it. On more than one occassion.

The crack habit didnt help I spose.

Joe_ Public

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I can't find that match on cue tracker, the 99 final and the 02 semi final are the nearest thing to it and but the standard of both were astronomical.

The semi final between Ding and Selby last year was probably the highest standard of snooker in a world championship I can recall in recent years especially with the quality of the safety while Allen and Higgins last year was ridiculous from an attacking point of view.

edit: 1997 charity challenge final is the one.

Yes that’s the game. Think Ronnie makes a huge comeback until Hendry settles it with a 147.

One of the world champ matches was spellbinding stuff too, think it was the sf where Hendry came from behind to pull away to victory.

eric hoone

eric hoone wrote: »

I'm starting to think Ronnie might have a problem winning another world championship, ever since he missed the pink to the middle against Selby the end of the first days play of the 2014 final, he hasn't come close

Although he's sure to win at least one more with very few top young players coming through, apart from china

velo.2010

O'Sullivan won't win another Worlds, I believe. He can still dominate the shorter format tournaments and knock up many more centuries and maximums. He's talked about the increasing distractions away from snooker and he probably has a work/life balance which favours shorter matches instead of the slog of the Worlds.

As for the best/greatest debate. He is the most talented snooker player of all time but Hendry remains the most dominant and therefore arguably the best player ever. O'Sullivan never had a run of nearly a decade of almost complete dominance like Hendry.

The greatest/best debate in sport can be an odd thing. Ali is considered the greatest boxer and greatest sports person of all time but he is hardly the best boxer ever. There are many names that boxing pundits would put clearly ahead of Ali in that debate.

AnneFrank

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Have been loads actually though not so much in recent years.

Define loads ? And when exactly? 30 years ago when a century was an abnormality?

Arthur Daley

I seriously doubt Higgins or Williams can go all the way here either. New name on the trophy this year. Really it should be Ding all the way now. But as the man once said it's a funny old game.

Comic Book Guy

Arthur Daley wrote: »

I seriously doubt Higgins or Williams can go all the way here either. New name on the trophy this year. Really it should be Ding all the way now. But as the man once said it's a funny old game.

Ding v Allen final for me. Now watch as both go out in next round!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Joe_ Public

AnneFrank wrote: »

Define loads ? And when exactly? 30 years ago when a century was an abnormality?

It was just an observation, nothing more. You have to go back to Reardon, Spencer, Pulman, the Davis’s and others. I didn’t say it was recent. Though Stuart Bingham was on the verge of 40 when he won in 2015.

Anyway age is an interesting question because after a couple of decades in which a younger generation dominated, the average age of the elite top 16 has been creeping steadily upwards. John Higgins might not win this year but I don’t think it is age that will stop him.

Joe_ Public

velo.2010 wrote: »

O'Sullivan won't win another Worlds, I believe. He can still dominate the shorter format tournaments and knock up many more centuries and maximums. He's talked about the increasing distractions away from snooker and he probably has a work/life balance which favours shorter matches instead of the slog of the Worlds.

As for the best/greatest debate. He is the most talented snooker player of all time but Hendry remains the most dominant and therefore arguably the best player ever. O'Sullivan never had a run of nearly a decade of almost complete dominance like Hendry.

The greatest/best debate in sport can be an odd thing. Ali is considered the greatest boxer and greatest sports person of all time but he is hardly the best boxer ever. There are many names that boxing pundits would put clearly ahead of Ali in that debate.

One point I would make in Ronnie favor is that he didn’t, unlike Hendry, decline into his 30s. I think his longevity should count for something.

I’d also suggest that Ronnie’s peak years, the noughties or thereabouts, were the hardest in terms of strength in depth in the game. The so called class of 92- Higgins, Williams, Doherty, McManus, Ebdon, Hunter among others. Plus with the likes of Hendry himself and Davis still on the scene. I think that was a great generation of tough, hardened match players who all knew how to win. Not suggesting that’s decisive in Ronnie’s favor, just something to throw into the mix.

Inviere

I think Ronnie is the GOAT. Hendry was a powerhouse of the game, and took Snooker from where it was in the 80's, toward what we know of it today. His seven titles have stood out alone for a long time now, & may never be beaten (though I personally think if Selby gets his act together, he has a chance of matching or beating the 7).

Ronnie, while never dominating a decade like Davis or Hendry, has been at the the business end of tournaments for over 20 years. That to me shows a talent, that even Hendry, just never had. Ronnie arguably too has had far stiffer opposition than other mentioned greats, and to shine today at 42 like he does, against players like Selby, Trump, Ding, etc, says he's a player that we'll likely never see the type of again.

velo.2010

Joe_ Public wrote: »

One point I would make in Ronnie favor is that he didn’t, unlike Hendry, decline into his 30s. I think his longevity should count for something.

That's objectively true. I would say though that Hendry was so dominant that he simply couldn't keep it up, ran out of steam and probably motivation after that long at the top.

As for opposition. Sure, todays snooker standard is higher than 20 odd years ago but you can only beat what is put on front of you. That Hendry was able to have played to such a high standard - that only O'Sullivan has matched and probably surpassed only recently - against such an apparently weaker set of players, speaks volumes as to his ability. I think he deserves huge credit for bringing the sport along so much.

Joe_ Public

Arthur Daley wrote: »

I seriously doubt Higgins or Williams can go all the way here either. New name on the trophy this year. Really it should be Ding all the way now. But as the man once said it's a funny old game.

A new name would be great and the game could do with it. I do fear Higgins might be hard to beat but that prospect slightly wearies me though I have nothing against him. Ding is the best hope for new blood, I’d agree, followed by Hawkins and Allen in that order.

walshb

On their absolute best day I’d put Higgins on top...he was the complete machine. So brilliant in all areas, and a monster match player...

Pure raw talent it’s clearly Ronnie..

Joe_ Public

velo.2010 wrote: »

That's objectively true. I would say though that Hendry was so dominant that he simply couldn't keep it up, ran out of steam and probably motivation after that long at the top.

As for opposition. Sure, todays snooker standard is higher than 20 odd years ago but you can only beat what is put on front of you. That Hendry was able to have played to such a high standard - that only O'Sullivan has matched and probably surpassed only recently - against such an apparently weaker set of players, speaks volumes as to his ability. I think he deserves huge credit for bringing the sport along so much.

To me Hendrys decline remains a mystery. Yeah he just ran out of steam, though there were also major cue issues, but I don’t know really why that should have been, why he couldn’t continue peaking for a couple of big tourneys every year. Sometimes things just aren’t easily explainable I guess.

Hendry changed the mentality of how the game was played entirely, a fantastic legacy outside of what he achieved in titles.

One thing though, the assertion that the standard is better now than 20 years ago is debatable imo. I know the bbc would have us believe that’s there’s more strength in depth now than ever but I’m just not sure that’s true.

walshb

velo.2010 wrote: »

The greatest/best debate in sport can be an odd thing. Ali is considered the greatest boxer and greatest sports person of all time but he is hardly the best boxer ever. There are many names that boxing pundits would put clearly ahead of Ali in that debate.

He has always been placed very high in an all time sense...

Not sure of these “many” names that pundits are putting ahead of him...

Any lists I have read, and there have been many, he is right up there in the argument..

AnneFrank

walshb wrote: »

On their absolute best day I’d put Higgins on top...he was the complete machine. So brilliant in all areas, and a monster match player...

Pure raw talent it’s clearly Ronnie..

A great player yes, maybe top 5, but also a cheat who should have been banned for a long time like others before him

walshb

AnneFrank wrote: »

A great player yes, maybe top 5, but also a cheat who should have been banned for a long time like others before him

I couldn’t give a fiddlers about his cheating..

Simply saying that all on their best day I would back him to beat all at the crucible..

Ridiculously good break builders, excellent cue control, excellent safety play, excellent temperament and excellent under pressure..

Of course, others are too. But he stands above for me...

Brae100

walshb wrote: »

I couldn’t give a fiddlers about his cheating..

Simply saying that all on their best day I would back him to beat all at the crucible..

Ridiculously good break builders, excellent cue control, excellent safety play, excellent temperament and excellent under pressure..

Of course, others are too. But he stands above for me...

Ronnie agrees with you. He thinks The Governor is the best ever.

Snake Plisken

Peter File wrote: »

Williams should steamroll Milkins this evening and Wilson should ease to victory tonight

Ha you where saying Milkens is playing well 3-3 now

Joe_ Public

Glad the milkman is acquitting himself well so far. Was seriously worried he wouldn’t turn up.

Inviere

AnneFrank wrote: »

A great player yes, maybe top 5, but also a cheat who should have been banned for a long time like others before him

A good read here for anyone still hung up on the 'cheating' thing - http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/09/21/revealed-why-john-higgins-was-cleared-of-match-fixing-because-the-evidence-including-a-statement-from-mazher-mahmood-told-the-full-story-210901/

Joe_ Public

Inviere wrote: »

A good read here for anyone still hung up on the 'cheating' thing - http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/09/21/revealed-why-john-higgins-was-cleared-of-match-fixing-because-the-evidence-including-a-statement-from-mazher-mahmood-told-the-full-story-210901/

It’s amazing the amount of players who have been associated with dodgy stuff and you don’t hear a peep about it, yet Higgins who got done by a discredited tabloid sting gets this same tired old nonsense around this time every year.

eric hoone

Joe_ Public wrote: »

To me Hendrys decline remains a mystery. Yeah he just ran out of steam, though there were also major cue issues, but I don’t know really why that should have been, why he couldn’t continue peaking for a couple of big tourneys every year. Sometimes things just aren’t easily explainable I guess.

Hendry changed the mentality of how the game was played entirely, a fantastic legacy outside of what he achieved in titles.

One thing though, the assertion that the standard is better now than 20 years ago is debatable imo. I know the bbc would have us believe that’s there’s more strength in depth now than ever but I’m just not sure that’s true.

Definitely. Hendry moved the goalposts, no more cagey champions after he showed the way forward.
I think he had some kind of curved cue since childhood that broke in transit 2003, don't think he won much after losing that cue.

BQQ

Looks like Ronnie could be in trouble over the barging

https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/snooker/tension-at-the-crucible-as-ronnie-osullivan-collides-with-ali-carter-during-shock-world-championship-defeat-36854432.html‬

Mervyn Skidmore

Joe_ Public wrote: »

One thing though, the assertion that the standard is better now than 20 years ago is debatable imo. I know the bbc would have us believe that’s there’s more strength in depth now than ever but I’m just not sure that’s true.

I think Ronnie was saying this a couple of years ago too, that the standard, he thought, was poor.

Brae100

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I think Ronnie was saying this a couple of years ago too, that the standard, he thought, was poor.

The standard today is off the charts compared to twenty years ago. Steve Davis was asked if he was playing today at his peak, where he thinks he'd be ranked. He said, probably top 64, maybe top 32, but not top 16.

Joe_ Public

eric hoone wrote: »

Definitely. Hendry moved the goalposts, no more cagey champions after he showed the way forward.
I think he had some kind of curved cue since childhood that broke in transit 2003, don't think he won much after losing that cue.

The cue issues certainly didn’t help him but the only thing I have with that is he’d already gone several years without winning a major title by then so it seemed he was already regressing by that stage.

There were definitely more young players coming through then, all playing the game the way he had evolved it, so do think that was one factor. It was harder and harder for him to dominate and whatever fear factor might have existed was significantly diminished.

AllForIt

As we come up to the end of the first week of the televised stages of the WC's I have to say it's been one of least entertaining I can remember.

As for predictions for the coming week, I can't see an obvious winner. I think the winner of the Wilson/Allen match could well lift the trophy. I think I'd like to see Allen win it this year. I've always underrated him in the past but I think he's got it in him to win a World Championship. Higgins must fancy his chances too though.

As for this Ronnie/Hendry thing no player has be me go WOW as often as O'Sullivan.