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Witness for a grevience

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  • 20-04-2018 9:29pm
    #1
    quinevere
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭


    I’ve log a formal grevience with employer and they have advised that they don’t recognise the union and that I should advised of a fellow companion.

    However the 2 people I trust the most have voiced their concerns about repercussions if they were to
    Be my witness/companion.

    Can anyone advise ? Any help welcome ...

    Thanks


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    #2
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    quinevere wrote: »
    I’ve log a formal grevience with employer and they have advised that they don’t recognise the union and that I should advised of a fellow companion.

    However the 2 people I trust the most have voiced their concerns about repercussions if they were to
    Be my witness/companion.

    Can anyone advise ? Any help welcome ...

    Thanks

    Your are a member of a Union that your employer doesnt recognise ?

    You better explain that one.


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    #3
    TG1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭TG1


    STB. wrote: »
    Your are a member of a Union that your employer doesnt recognise ?

    You better explain that one.

    Companies don't have to recognise unions, but can't deny employees the right to join one, so the above is a fairly usual scenario.

    Op, is there no one else you would take with you? A fellow employees doesn't have to act as a witness if they don't want to, and to be fair, often doing so is a stressful experience for someone.
    You are not entitled to bring someone who is not an employee in (although there is some case law to the contrary in the UK at disciplinary stage at the moment so may all change) so if you can't get someone to agree to act as a witness then I'm afraid there is not a whole lot you can do.


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    #4
    kaymin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Can you agree to record the conversation in the absence of having a witness there?


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    #5
    quinevere
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭quinevere


    As the matter is in relations to the equality act I was debating doing the following ..completing the ES1 form and completing the process in writing. I can’t really force someone to be a witness and they are right the company would hold it against them.


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    #6
    Munstermissy
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Munstermissy


    Record the meeting on your phone. Advise them of this at the start of the meeting. Can you bring a family member or close friend?


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    #7
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Why do you say the employer doesn't recognise the union? Is the union involved at this stage? Or aware of your problem?

    Would they not be able to advise better?


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    #8
    Misguided1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭Misguided1


    If the union rep is an employee, they could still accompany you as long as they agree not to speak on your behalf during the meeting.
    If you cannot find an employee to accompany you, you can ask for an external party (family member/friend etc.) to be with you. Most reasonable companies will consider this if you have made attempts for find someone internally.

    Ask that the meeting be recorded and offer to do so yourself if they say they don't have a recording device.

    I'm not sure how completing the ES1 form relates to whether you can find a witness or not. It is an external complaints mechanism with your grievance being an internal one and makes the situation a litigious one (which you are perfectly entitled to do). While you might complete the complaint in writing, if the case is heard you will need to speak in front of the company, legal representatives and adjudicator so it won't be any easier than an internal process.


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    #9
    quinevere
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭quinevere


    I’ve been consulting with the union and they advised if I have to attend alone that I adjourn the meeting if the tone of the meeting become hostile and we take to the Lrc as this their opportunity to investigate.


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    #10
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,998 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    When the meeting opens state "as you have refused to allow me bring along my union Rep as my witness, I am recording this meeting for training and quality purposes"


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    #11
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    I'm not certain of this, but aren't you required to exhaust the grievence procedure outlined in your contract/employee handbook before taking a case to the WRC?


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    #12
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    TG1 wrote: »
    Companies don't have to recognise unions, but can't deny employees the right to join one, so the above is a fairly usual scenario.

    Op, is there no one else you would take with you? A fellow employees doesn't have to act as a witness if they don't want to, and to be fair, often doing so is a stressful experience for someone.
    You are not entitled to bring someone who is not an employee in (although there is some case law to the contrary in the UK at disciplinary stage at the moment so may all change) so if you can't get someone to agree to act as a witness then I'm afraid there is not a whole lot you can do.

    It is not a usual scenario. Most properly run businesses have no issue with them. That there is a culture of fear among his fellow employees to attend as a witness immediately sets alarm bells off.

    The question was asked to ascertain why would someone pay a trade union if their employer does not recognise them. What protections exist if the simple protections like representation do not exist.

    There is legislation holding this all together, the Industrial Relations Act 1990, regardless of whether the employer recognises a union or not.

    The general principles of a code of practice in relation to grievances on the WPRC site says.

    For the purposes of this Code of Practice, "employee representative" includes a colleague of the employee's choice and a registered trade union but not any other person or body unconnected with the enterprise.

    http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Good_Workplace_Relations/codes_practice/COP3/

    Registered and recognised. Two different words.


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    #13
    TG1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭TG1


    STB. wrote: »
    It is not a usual scenario. Most properly run businesses have no issue with them. That there is a culture of fear among his fellow employees to attend as a witness immediately sets alarm bells off.

    The question was asked to ascertain why would someone pay a trade union if their employer does not recognise them. What protections exist if the simple protections like representation do not exist.

    There is legislation holding this all together, the Industrial Relations Act 1990, regardless of whether the employer recognises a union or not.

    The general principles of a code of practice in relation to grievances on the WPRC site says.

    For the purposes of this Code of Practice, "employee representative" includes a colleague of the employee's choice and a registered trade union but not any other person or body unconnected with the enterprise.

    http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Good_Workplace_Relations/codes_practice/COP3/

    Registered and recognised. Two different words.

    Code of practice is not legally binding, a company does not have to allow a trade union rep into a meeting, the company has done nothing wrong here.

    As for most properly run companies having no problem with unions, I have to disagree, in my experience some properly run companies will not have them as they prevent companies from being able to treat employees as individuals and adults, but that is not the point of the ops question.

    As for the employees refusing to attend setting off alarm bells, I don't know enough to comment, but there is always the option that they are refusing to attend as they do not agree with the op more so than they are afraid of ramifications. Asking a fellow employee to attend actually puts them in a really tough spot and I have often seen people refuse to attend on the basis that they do not want to be involved. As stated though, I don't know enough about the situation to suggest it's one or the other, just putting an alternative scenario out there....


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    #14
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,574 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Munstermissy wrote: »
    Record the meeting on your phone. Advise them of this at the start of the meeting. Can you bring a family member or close friend?

    No, the company do not have to allow an outside non employee in as a companion.


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    #15
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    davo10 wrote: »
    I'm not certain of this, but aren't you required to exhaust the grievence procedure outlined in your contract/employee handbook before taking a case to the WRC?

    No your not. Your confusing making a complaint to the WRC with making a complaint to the Ombudsman.
    It is best practice though to have tried to resolve the issue internally before going to the commission.


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    #16
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,998 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    I think a company refusing to allow an outside witness is only going to play into the hands of the empoloyee if the matter goes further.
    LRC etc always seem to take dim views on such carry on, so the employer is really only shooting themselves in the foot here


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    #17
    Misguided1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭Misguided1


    splinter65 wrote: »
    No your not. Your confusing making a complaint to the WRC with making a complaint to the Ombudsman.
    It is best practice though to have tried to resolve the issue internally before going to the commission.

    Possibly not confusing it with the Ombudsman. Typically in a constructive dismissal scenario, you should have exhausted internal dispute resolution mechanisms before resigning and claiming constructive dismissal. It strengthens the position that you have been more than reasonable and tried every possible outcome but were left with no choice but to resign. I suspect that is where the confusion is coming from.


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