Clermont Carn

SRB

Quick question, does anyone know is this on reduced power? Lost all Soarview services from it, yet am still receiving an out of area Freeview mux on Ch 55, so it's unlikely to be the aerial. Am in Co Down.

Thurston?

https://www.saorview.ie/en/news

Due to essential maintenance, our Clermont Carn transmitter will be subject to power reductions and breaks in transmission, between 10:00 and 18:00 on 21st April 2018.

They must have needed more time?

SRB

Ah, thanks had only checked 2rn site. Work must be ongoing.

Barnavave

Thankfully it's not just me then, no BBC channels at all and the rest of the UK channels are hit and miss.

Thurston?

Barnavave wrote: »

Thankfully it's not just me then, no BBC channels at all and the rest of the UK channels are hit and miss.

UK channels don't come from Clermont Carn.

Barnavave

Thurston? wrote: »

UK channels don't come from Clermont Carn.

Oh must have another issue. All my BBC channels have gone on freeview, been gone since early yesterday. I'll have to look elsewhere now to resolve this.

Thanks for your input.

stephend2000

Barnavave wrote: »

Thurston? wrote: »

UK channels don't come from Clermont Carn.

Oh must have another issue. All my BBC channels have gone on freeview, been gone since early yesterday. I'll have to look elsewhere now to resolve this.

Thanks for your input.

This may be due to the weather: https://www.a516digital.com/2018/04/summer-weather-prompts-tv-and-radio.html

egal

Barnavave wrote: »

Thankfully it's not just me then, no BBC channels at all and the rest of the UK channels are hit and miss.

You don't mean FreeSAT by any chance? My BBCs and UTVs and certain others were missing earlier. Back now, though.

SRB

No issues with Sat, if your channels were off that's an issue at your end of things.

egal

SRB wrote: »

No issues with Sat, if your channels were off that's an issue at your end of things.

Were you watching this afternoon at 4.30 or thereabouts?

SRB

Looks like it's going to be a long outage....
"2rn-Clermont Carn, Co. Louth - Power reductions and breaks in transmission Saorview for 8hrs between 10:00 and 18:00 19th April to 11th June 2018 📺"

egal

SRB wrote: »

No issues with Sat, if your channels were off that's an issue at your end of things.

Looks like you might be right after all. Some channels missing intermittently again today.

kazoo106

Big work going on up there - last bit of road even closed off and lots of vehicles visible at the summit !

egal

Preparing for next year's frequency changes?

Iderown

Clermont Carn (52V and 56V) seems to be back at full power now (13 June).
Must have been some renovations there! Good to see it.

I'm in Bangor, Co Down and feared that the polar intensities would be altered so as to attenuate the signal in this direction.

Let's hope that aerials survive storm Hector in the next 12 hours.

SRB

Unfortunately it's due to move down band next year, with NI muxes moving up to 52 and 56. Won't be as straightforward to receive as it is now :-(

kazoo106

Lower frequencies will arguably make it travel through obstructions better, however it will be co-channel with Truskmore, though in a different polarisation. Not aware of anything above 50 in the new plan

SRB

Will require aerials to be replaced and diplexing won't be as easy if NI Freeview ends up with muxes either side of CC.

The Cush

kazoo106 wrote: »

Not aware of anything above 50 in the new plan

Nothing above Ch.48 from 2020, Chs. 49-60 are being cleared.

TAFKAlawhec

Just putting together a little guide for those whom have Freeview/Saorview setups for aerials aimed at Divis & Black Mountain and Clermont Carn...

---

Today

Divis/Black Mountain: 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 29, 30, 33, 34, 39
Clermont Carn: 52, 56

Frequency change, September 2019

Divis/Black Mountain: 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 30, 33, 36, 51, 60
Clermont Carn: 42, 45, 52, 56

Final 700MHz clearance, March 2020

Divis/Black Mountain: 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 30, 33, 36, 55, 56
Clermont Carn: 42, 45

2022 and beyond

Divis/Black Mountain: 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 30, 33, 36
Clermont Carn: 42, 45

Freeview PSB1-3 - Freeview COM4-6 - Freeview COM7/8 - Freeview RNI_1 - Freeview LTV - Saorview - Saorview (temp)

* September 2019 - Divis COM6 moves from E29 to E30, Divis LTV moves from E30 to E36, Divis COM7/8 moves from E33 & E34 to E51 & E60 (temp), Black Mountain RNI_1 moves from E39 to E33, Clermont Carn begins dual transmissions on E42 & E45 alongside E52 & E56.

* March 2020 - Divis COM7/8 moves from E51 & E60 to E55 & E56, Clermont Carn switches off E52 & E56.

* 2022 onwards - Divis COM 7/8 on E55 & E56 switched off

^ In September 2019 frequency changes there are a number of maximum ERP changes also - Divis LTV from 5kW to 10kW, Black Mountain from 2kW to 3.2kW, Divis COM6/7/8 remain at previous power levels.

^ In March 2020 frequency changes there is also another maximum ERP change - Divis COM7/8 go from 12.4kW & 12.66 kW respectively to 8.913kW for both.

*** In the UK 700MHz clearance the frequency shuffles have so far placed COM7/8 to E55 & E56 at all present sites as a national SFN, however this will not be possible at Divis straight away because of the temp dual transmissions at Clermont Carn using E56, so E51 & E60 are temp frequencies until E56 is switched off at Clermont Carn in March 2020.

*** In common with all Saorview TX sites that are having frequency changes in this period, Clermont Carn's "old" and "new" pair of frequencies will both be transmitted for a six month period to facilitate viewers requiring retuning and/or aerial changes.

*** Freeview COM7/8 will close down no later than at some point in 2022. The frequencies used (E55 & E56) are intended to be made available in the UK for supplementary download bandwidth for 4G and 5G devices through carrier aggregation (LTE Band 67) in the duplex gap of the 700MHz European FDD band (LTE Band 28) (700MHz European FDD band is the same as that for the Asia-Pacific & Latin America area except that the top 12-15MHz of each duplex is not usable because of overlap with LTE Band 20 i.e. the European 800MHz "Digital Dividend" band).

Digifriendly

Many thanks for very useful information. I pick up everything here in Moira you have listed apart from Divis LTV. All my receivable muxes are coming through with strong signal. I did notice CC recently down in power but I can receive it now without masthead amp being powered. BTW my aerial setup is Televes Pro 27 (Divis/Black Mountain) diplexed with Triax 52 (Clermont Carn). AFAIK both my aerials are wideband.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

*** In the UK 700MHz clearance the frequency shuffles have so far placed COM7/8 to E55 & E56 at all present sites as a national SFN, however this will not be possible at Divis straight away because of the temp dual transmissions at Clermont Carn using E56, so E51 & E60 are temp frequencies until E56 is switched off at Clermont Carn in March 2020.

Good work there lawhec.

On Divis, according to the 2017 agreement between Comreg and Ofcom, the COM7/8 frequencies will move to UHF51/60 on Mar 04, 2020, 41 dbW unrestricted, the day our 6 month simulcast ends, and remain there until these muxes are switched off. Not sure where the interim muxes will be prior to that from Sept 2019. DigitalUK haven't published the transition plan for NI yet, early 2019 probably.

Has the 2022 date been confirmed for the COM7/8 muxes? If Divis continues to occupy UHF51/60 beyond June 2020, how will this affect mobile services occupying the 700MHz on this side of the border, and I presume NI, from mid 2020?

This is what the agreement states

The purpose of this MoU is to facilitate early transition to the new 700 MHz band clearance DTT plans within the UK, by permitting multiplexes 7 and 8 to use Channel 55 and Channel 56 (742 – 758 MHz) during the Transition Period.

The “Transition Period” means the period of time during which existing DTT services in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and in Ireland, will migrate out of the 700 MHz band. The Transition Period will begin on the 24th March 2017 and will end, with reasonable effort, no later than 30th June 2020.

TAFKAlawhec

The Cush wrote: »

Good work there lawhec.

On Divis, according to the 2017 agreement between Comreg and Ofcom, the COM7/8 frequencies will move to UHF51/60 on Mar 04, 2020, 41 dbW unrestricted, the day our 6 month simulcast ends, and remain there until these muxes are switched off. Not sure where the interim muxes will be prior to that from Sept 2019. DigitalUK haven't published the transition plan for NI yet, early 2019 probably.

Hi Cush. The details on the movement of Freeview COM7/8 is taken from Digital UK's postcode coverage checker. I've a link below here for the coverage prediction at the postcode of BBC Broadcasting House in Belfast.


http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/main/trade/BT2+8HQ/NA/0/NA


As noted in the link there is a change on "Jul - Sep 19" for COM multiplexes 6, 7 & 8. For COM7/8 this involves a move from E33 & E34 to E51 & E60. Then a further move occurs in "Jan - Mar 20" for COM 7/8 from E51 & E60 to E55 & E56 alongside a reduction in ERP. I can only assume that when that happens, Clermont Carn will have ceased transmissions on E52 & E56.

All the other changes at Divis in September 2019 that includes frequency changes for COM6, the Local TV mux and the RNI_1 mux on Black Mountain are presumed final.

The Cush wrote: »

Has the 2022 date been confirmed for the COM7/8 muxes? If Divis continues to occupy UHF51/60 beyond June 2020, how will this affect mobile services occupying the 700MHz on this side of the border, and I presume NI, from mid 2020?

I haven't got the proof at hand but COM7/8 were originally scheduled to close around at the end of the 700MHz clearance during 2020, Ofcom have granted Arqiva a stay of execution of sorts for them to occupy the "duplex gap" for another two years when they then must shut down.


The 700MHz clearance plan across Europe involves reducing the UHF TV broadcast space to 470MHz to 694MHz. It follows the same frequency division duplex use as those for LTE Band 28 which is nominally 703-748MHz for the mobile uplink and 758-803MHz BTS downlink. This is perfectly suitable in those countries which have had long standing networks in the 850MHz band (LTE Band 5) whose lower edge for the mobile uplink is 824MHz and also in cases where the band is extended down to 814MHz for additional capacity (LTE Band 26).


However for European countries and others that have LTE Band 20 networks in the 800MHz band, the BTS downlink frequencies are lower than the mobile uplink and they extend down to 791MHz, so the whole of Band 28 can't be utilised. There is a 12MHz overlap. The French 700MHz auction saw 2x30MHz allocations auctioned off in 5MHz pairs so presumably the mobile uplink is 703-733MHz and the BTS downlink is 758-788MHz, leaving a 3MHz guard band with LTE Band 20 and a 25MHz duplex gap. The Free network has already started rolling out 4G coverage in that band in parts of France which has had the 700MHz band cleared, including Paris. As I mentioned in my previous post, within the duplex gap there is an LTE band set aside for downlink aggregation between 738-758MHz (LTE Band 67) though presumably there isn't much to potentially stop any spectrum holder from using such spectrum as TDD instead (LTE Band 44 703-803MHz) other than being forbidden by licence.


TV frequency channels E55 & E56 are 742-750MHz & 750-758 MHz respectively and so lie within the duplex gap though E56 is right next door to the bottom end of the BTS downlink. Incidentaly in Band 20 there is an 11MHz duplex gap between 821-832MHz which can accommodate old TV channel E65 (822-830MHz), a useful gap to have for anyone still using analogue TV modulators. It's only the UK that seems to be using the Band 28 duplex gap as a temp broadcasting stop-gap.


How could this affect potential Band 28 mobile services on both sides of the border? It shouldn't stop FDD being used though whoever has the lower end of the duplex might have some temporary coverage restrictions until COM7/8 are switched off at least in the UK, probably no consequence in ROI except maybe in parts of counties Louth & Monaghan and even then it might not matter that much. Even if Comreg also auction the duplex gap in the 700MHz band it'll likely still be usable in the ROI except again maybe with temp restrictions in Louth & Monaghan up to 2022.


AFAIK both Comreg & Ofcom have yet to make firm announcement as to when the 700MHz auctions will take place. In the UK it'll likely take place at the same time as more 3.5GHz spectrum is auctioned (probably in TDD Band 43), other than that there doesn't seem to be more possible mobile spectrum they can auction unless Ofcom can convince the MoD to give up more Band 40 spectrum, they put up 450MHz spectrum (Band 31 or 72, both restricted to FDD 2x5MHz), get agreement with CEPT to look at widening current European mobile bands or they start going into the millimetre wavebands. On the other hand as well as 700MHz, Comreg (I think - could be shot down if I'm wrong) could release spectrum used elsewhere in Europe for mobile/wireless technology including Band 32 (1452-1492MHz used in the UK by Vodafone & 3 for supplementary data download with CA - eagle eyes will notice this is the old DAB "L Band"), Band 40 (2.3-2.4GHz TDD, the bottom 40MHz allocated to O2 in the UK and presently using 20MHz of it) and Band 7 & 38 (2510-2690MHz FDD and TDD in duplex gap).

TAFKAlawhec

Digifriendly wrote: »

Many thanks for very useful information. I pick up everything here in Moira you have listed apart from Divis LTV. All my receivable muxes are coming through with strong signal. I did notice CC recently down in power but I can receive it now without masthead amp being powered. BTW my aerial setup is Televes Pro 27 (Divis/Black Mountain) diplexed with Triax 52 (Clermont Carn). AFAIK both my aerials are wideband.

If both aerials are "wideband" then the important bit will be the diplexer, if it's A-E then it should be fine though if it's something like K-C/D then it might need changing.

Also worth noting that COM6 moving to E30 will mean it's co-channel with Three Rock unless they move to a different frequency there, so some viewers on both sides of the border might find reception of COM6 worse than COM4/5 or lose it altogether.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Hi Cush. The details on the movement of Freeview COM7/8 is taken from Digital UK's postcode coverage checker. I've a link below here for the coverage prediction at the postcode of BBC Broadcasting House in Belfast.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/main/trade/BT2+8HQ/NA/0/NA

As noted in the link there is a change on "Jul - Sep 19" for COM multiplexes 6, 7 & 8. For COM7/8 this involves a move from E33 & E34 to E51 & E60. Then a further move occurs in "Jan - Mar 20" for COM 7/8 from E51 & E60 to E55 & E56 alongside a reduction in ERP. I can only assume that when that happens, Clermont Carn will have ceased transmissions on E52 & E56.

That would be logical and more up to date than the 2017 agreement information. It would allow for the centre gap to be used without interfering with normal FDD services in the rest of the band. Mar 4th 2020 is the date scheduled for the simulcast frequencies to be switched off.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Also worth noting that COM6 moving to E30 will mean it's co-channel with Three Rock unless they move to a different frequency there, so some viewers on both sides of the border might find reception of COM6 worse than COM4/5 or lose it altogether.

Three Rock UHF 30 & 33 will continue after clearance with restrictions towards Divis.

6dB| 20-24|Divis(COM)
10dB |25‐50|Caldbeck (COM)
6dB | 82-86 degrees | Storeton
3dB|345-359|, 6dB (1dB HP + 5dB VP)|000-020| Divis (COM)

TAFKAlawhec

The Cush wrote: »

Three Rock UHF 30 & 33 will continue after clearance with restrictions towards Divis.

Given the topology of the Dublin area and that most of Three Rocks' viewers are to the north of the site, one wonders where would you'd throw the maximum radiated power to? Surely not to the south! :eek::pac:

Edit: A 6db restriction towards the Divis service area still allows for maximum ERP in that arc of ~31kW.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

The 700MHz clearance plan across Europe involves reducing the UHF TV broadcast space to 470MHz to 694MHz. It follows the same frequency division duplex use as those for LTE Band 28 which is nominally 703-748MHz for the mobile uplink and 758-803MHz BTS downlink. This is perfectly suitable in those countries which have had long standing networks in the 850MHz band (LTE Band 5) whose lower edge for the mobile uplink is 824MHz and also in cases where the band is extended down to 814MHz for additional capacity (LTE Band 26).
…

Yes, Europe will use the lower duplexer of the APT700 bandplan because of our unique 800MHz band configuration. I posted the ITU Recommendation document a few years ago - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=97837867

Bandplan graphic from a German consultation a few years back


Band 28/APT700 graphic

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

How could this affect potential Band 28 mobile services on both sides of the border? It shouldn't stop FDD being used though whoever has the lower end of the duplex might have some temporary coverage restrictions until COM7/8 are switched off at least in the UK, probably no consequence in ROI except maybe in parts of counties Louth & Monaghan and even then it might not matter that much. Even if Comreg also auction the duplex gap in the 700MHz band it'll likely still be usable in the ROI except again maybe with temp restrictions in Louth & Monaghan up to 2022.

That was in reference to "if Divis continues to occupy UHF51/60 beyond June 2020" in my post above, UHF 55/56 removes that issue.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

AFAIK both Comreg & Ofcom have yet to make firm announcement as to when the 700MHz auctions will take place.

…

On the other hand as well as 700MHz, Comreg (I think - could be shot down if I'm wrong) could release spectrum used elsewhere in Europe for mobile/wireless technology including Band 32 (1452-1492MHz used in the UK by Vodafone & 3 for supplementary data download with CA - eagle eyes will notice this is the old DAB "L Band"), Band 40 (2.3-2.4GHz TDD, the bottom 40MHz allocated to O2 in the UK and presently using 20MHz of it) and Band 7 & 38 (2510-2690MHz FDD and TDD in duplex gap).

A Comreg consultation is imminent "on proposals to release 700 MHz, 1.4 GHz, 2.3 GHz and 2.6 GHz bands and other substitutable or complementary bands (e.g. 2.1 GHz)". It will be part of a multi-band spectrum award. Auction likely 2019 or early 2020.

castle2012

That's all really interesting. If receiving from clermount Carn and from the freeview lite transmitter in killkeel. Will there be changes to killkeel frequency's to? There currently on 39 HD, 42 and 45 SD
Many of us in the North East use killkeel and clermount Carn.

The Cush

castle2012 wrote: »

That's all really interesting. If receiving from clermount Carn and from the freeview lite transmitter in killkeel. Will there be changes to killkeel frequency's to? There currently on 39 HD, 42 and 45 SD

Kilkeel V 400W

BBC A UHF45 --> UHF40 (Sept 2019)
D3&4 UHF42 --> UHF43 (Sept 2019)
BBC B HD UHF39 --> UHF46 (Sept 2019)

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/main/trade/BT34+4LB/Mourne+Park/0/NA

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

I haven't got the proof at hand but COM7/8 were originally scheduled to close around at the end of the 700MHz clearance during 2020, Ofcom have granted Arqiva a stay of execution of sorts for them to occupy the "duplex gap" for another two years when they then must shut down.

I had a look at the Ofcom documentation on this, basically the centre gap is to be auctioned off and made available to MNOs from May 1st 2020 but if they are not ready to launch services the interim muxes can continue until such time as the operators are ready to launch.

But, subject to stronger evidence on interference risks, we are minded to allow the interim multiplexes to operate in the centre gap until licensees switch mobile data services on

5.23 This said, we accept that there is limited merit in requiring the interim multiplexes to vacate the centre gap before the paired spectrum is available for mobile data use. The current plan indicates that the paired spectrum will be clear and ready for mobile data at the end of April 2020. We are therefore minded to allow the interim multiplexes to remain in the centre gap until at least the 1 May 2020.

5.24 We accept there is a risk that an equipment eco-system for mobile downlink services (e.g. SDL) in the centre gap develops more slowly than we currently anticipate.

Rather than establishing 1 May 2020 as a fixed end date for the interim multiplexes, we therefore consider that it makes sense to take an agile approach. We are minded to allow the interim multiplexes to continue operating until such time as a mobile data licensee decides to switch on services in the centre gap. This is subject to Arqiva being able to demonstrate that:

5.24.1 There is no material risk of the interim multiplexes causing harmful interference to mobile data services in the paired part of the 700 MHz band; and

5.24.2 Arqiva has, at that point, put in place appropriate provisions for managing the impact of incoming interference received by viewers watching the interim multiplexes.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statements/category-1/maximising-benefits-700mhz-clearance