ERCC SF: Racing 92 vs Munster; Sun 22nd April 3:15pm; BT Sport 3

baas baa

baas baa wrote: »

So the 3 South African lads are good and if they were bolstered with a few more Leinstermen Munster would have a proper side :-)

If you could get the likes of Porter and Byrne from somewhere else (preferably the Munster academy) then no - you'd be fine without them.

But the point stands, Munster have not been producing top class forwards. Whether that is down to the raw materials or the coaching and environment is beyond my knowledge.

Dubinusa

Munster have some good young forwards. Oliver for one, Liam O Connor is another.
There's Wycherly and Gavin Coombes also.
The production line is not so barren.

Professor Moriarty

Dubinusa wrote: »

Munster have some good young forwards. Oliver for one, Liam O Connor is another.
There's Wycherly and Gavin Coombes also.
The production line is not so barren.

But are they at the level of Leavy, Conan, Ryan, van der Flier et al?

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cloete is just explosive. He's very quick and was badly missed yesterday. His speed helps greatly against bigger packs because he gets to the breakdown and under or over the ball before numbers arrive. But his explosiveness would have delivered a score with all that pressure yesterday, Munster were crying out for someone that could make that last foot to put the ball down and Cloete would have delivered that imo.

But further out From the try line how effective is he?

I Think Munsters tight 5 are well behind their counterparts in the other 3 semi finalists in terms of what they offer around the park. An if the fundamentals break down then that's a major problem.

Munster had roughly 75% territory and possession.

Buer

Cloete is an excellent carrier. He's scrappy as hell and can bust a soft tackle for a big gain from anywhere on the field. Extremely dynamic. He wouldn't have made the difference yesterday but he'd have made a difference.

It's a tough one for Munster in terms of developing their forwards. They have some very talented guys who are just starting to make a name for themselves like Oliver and Wycherley and they should be important players for Munster in a few years. The problem is that this side doesn't have a few years. By the time the RWC rolls around, 8 of the starting side from yesterday will be the wrong side of 30 and I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two of those lads look at a pay day elsewhere at that point.

The big one coming down the line is scrum half. Murray has been the fulcrum of the team for several years but isn't going to be around forever. He's 30 at the end of next season and is someone that could definitely be looking at a foreign jaunt. Even if he doesn't, scrum half is going to be something that requires a real focus in the very near future. Similar to the other provinces, I'm pretty unconvinced by all options behind the first choice but the age profile is slightly better elsewhere.

Akrasia

Burkie1203 wrote: »

But further out From the try line how effective is he?

I Think Munsters tight 5 are well behind their counterparts in the other 3 semi finalists in terms of what they offer around the park. An if the fundamentals break down then that's a major problem.

Munster had roughly 75% territory and possession.

Cloete is excellent at the breakdown both at stealing turnovers and protecting Munster ball and he's capable of breaking the line and carrying the ball into contact
Threeredkings did an article about him before he joined Munster
https://www.threeredkings.com/the-gif-room-chris-cloete/

awec

Don't want to be the guy who comes in after the match and tries to act like he predicted everything that happened, but I feel Munster are a team that overachieved somewhat in Europe this season. A semi final is a great return for the squad you have and the coaching oddity this season.

I think the difference between Munster and Leinster right now is pretty substantial and Leinster are probably the benchmark. Munster are a decent team capable of pulling a big performance out of a hat, but the problem is they need to consistently raise their game to beat the good teams.

Personally, I think a Champions Cup medal is still quite a way off this Munster side.

awec

awec wrote: »

Don't want to be the guy who comes in after the match and tries to act like he predicted everything that happened, but I feel Munster are a team that overachieved somewhat in Europe this season. A semi final is a great return for the squad you have and the coaching oddity this season.

I think the difference between Munster and Leinster right now is pretty substantial and Leinster are probably the benchmark. Munster are a decent team capable of pulling a big performance out of a hat, but the problem is they need to consistently raise their game to beat the good teams.

Personally, I think a Champions Cup medal is still quite a way off this Munster side.

I dunno, there wasn't much about that Munster performance against Toulon which would suggest they 'over achieved' their way to the semi-final. It was a stunning, gritty performance against a top quality side with 3 recent European titles under their belt.

I'd have said last year that the group was a bit of a gift in the end and the quarter final was a one sided affair but the top 4 status this season was certainly earned.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Don't want to be the guy who comes in after the match and tries to act like he predicted everything that happened, but I feel Munster are a team that overachieved somewhat in Europe this season. A semi final is a great return for the squad you have and the coaching oddity this season.

I think the difference between Munster and Leinster right now is pretty substantial and Leinster are probably the benchmark. Munster are a decent team capable of pulling a big performance out of a hat, but the problem is they need to consistently raise their game to beat the good teams.

Personally, I think a Champions Cup medal is still quite a way off this Munster side.

*Paging Buer*

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

*Paging Buer*

I'm not sure what I should be writing here! I fully agree with awec (don't get used to it).

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure what I should be writing here! I fully agree with awec (don't get used to it).

Something...Ulster fan talking about winning trophies..something something

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno, there wasn't much about that Munster performance against Toulon which would suggest they 'over achieved' their way to the semi-final. It was a stunning, gritty performance against a top quality side with 3 recent European titles under their belt.

I'd have said last year that the group was a bit of a gift in the end and the quarter final was a one sided affair but the top 4 status this season was certainly earned.

Yea, they raised their game against Toulon.

I don't think challenging for european honours is the level of this current Munster side. They were taken apart by Racing at the weekend, the scoreline not really reflective of the game given Racing had it won by half time. Now, you can say that Munster didn't turn up, or you can say that this weekend was closer to Munster's level.

I think they're still a few levels below the standard needed. There's still too much reliance on home fixtures and too much reliance on games being raised. Too many players not quite of the required standard.

Are they building towards a real challenge in a few years time? I'm not sure, I don't see it.

Dubinusa

The Saffer trip did not help imo. Best to get outta the way early. Watching the game, I think Munster looked tired and flat. The last 3 months have seen a heavy workload for Murray, POM and Stander. Factor in Zebo's family issues and Earl's just coming back from injury.... a perfect storm. The entire team was off the pace and looked lost.
On the other side, Racing looked motivated and hungry. All of them played very well. Donncha was sensational. He is a huge loss for Munster. Shame he left.

awec

It is interesting to hear people say Munster were tired given they benefit from the IRFU player programme and the French teams are apparently flogged.

I don't think they were tired, they were just beaten out the gate by a better team. Hard to pin any of the three tries on tiredness.

ProudIRISHman

awec wrote: »

Don't want to be the guy who comes in after the match and tries to act like he predicted everything that happened, but I feel Munster are a team that overachieved somewhat in Europe this season. A semi final is a great return for the squad you have and the coaching oddity this season.

I think the difference between Munster and Leinster right now is pretty substantial and Leinster are probably the benchmark. Munster are a decent team capable of pulling a big performance out of a hat, but the problem is they need to consistently raise their game to beat the good teams.

Personally, I think a Champions Cup medal is still quite a way off this Munster side.

You are dead wrong. This Munster side while not flair filled compared to Leinster have raw aggression, grit and determination and could easily turn over a Leinster side that has had it easy this Champions Cup run. While Leinster had Scarlets in the semis we got Racing and had a biased ref ruin any possible chance we had of winning. We beat Toulon and we would have been beaten Leinster.

The players and team is there, but we are ignored by the IRFU and are unlucky always with referees and draws.

However you go ahead and write off these brave warriors...we will show you! SUAF!!!

awec

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

You are dead wrong. This Munster side while not flair filled compared to Leinster have raw aggression, grit and determination and could easily turn over a Leinster side that has had it easy this Champions Cup run. While Leinster had Scarlets in the semis we got Racing and had a biased ref ruin any possible chance we had of winning. We beat Toulon and we would have been beaten Leinster.

The players and team is there, but we are ignored by the IRFU and are unlucky always with referees and draws.

However you go ahead and write off these brave warriors...we will show you! SUAF!!!

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

irelandrover

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

You are dead wrong. This Munster side while not flair filled compared to Leinster have raw aggression, grit and determination and could easily turn over a Leinster side that has had it easy this Champions Cup run. While Leinster had Scarlets in the semis we got Racing and had a biased ref ruin any possible chance we had of winning. We beat Toulon and we would have been beaten Leinster.

The players and team is there, but we are ignored by the IRFU and are unlucky always with referees and draws.

However you go ahead and write off these brave warriors...we will show you! SUAF!!!

Didn't Leinster have the current premiership and top 14 champions in their group. Or do we just ignore that fact?

Squatter

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

You are dead wrong. This Munster side while not flair filled compared to Leinster have raw aggression, grit and determination and could easily turn over a Leinster side that has had it easy this Champions Cup run. While Leinster had Scarlets in the semis we got Racing and had a biased ref ruin any possible chance we had of winning. We beat Toulon and we would have been beaten Leinster.

The players and team is there, but we are ignored by the IRFU and are unlucky always with referees and draws.

However you go ahead and write off these brave warriors...we will show you! SUAF!!!

Genuinely disgusting of you to suggest that J P Doyle was biased.

Mind you, you did get a biased "homer" ref for the Toulon game in TP - a ref. who could have stitched ye up in the very first moment if he had had the balls.

(Not to mention a TMO who spotted an invisible knock-on!)

awec

awec wrote: »

Yea, they raised their game against Toulon.

I don't think challenging for european honours is the level of this current Munster side. They were taken apart by Racing at the weekend, the scoreline not really reflective of the game given Racing had it won by half time. Now, you can say that Munster didn't turn up, or you can say that this weekend was closer to Munster's level.

I think they're still a few levels below the standard needed. There's still too much reliance on home fixtures and too much reliance on games being raised. Too many players not quite of the required standard.

Are they building towards a real challenge in a few years time? I'm not sure, I don't see it.

You can't overlook Munster's recent performances over Racing the last two seasons and say that the result at the weekend is where Munster are at.

If Munster 'raised their game' against Toulon then fair enough, but they certainly were far below average yesterday, much more than they were above average against Toulon.

Yesterday was an aberration. Too bad to be true. Everything went wrong.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't overlook Munster's recent performances over Racing the last two seasons and say that the result at the weekend is where Munster are at.

If Munster 'raised their game' against Toulon then fair enough, but they certainly were far below average yesterday, much more than they were above average against Toulon.

Yesterday was an aberration. Too bad to be true. Everything went wrong.

Racing were superior and Munster were basically found out despite their customary doggedness. So I don't think it was an aberration, they simply overreached. 'If' is a very big word, but if Cloete and Farrell/Taute were playing yesterday they might have had a chance.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

It is interesting to hear people say Munster were tired given they benefit from the IRFU player programme and the French teams are apparently flogged.

I don't think they were tired, they were just beaten out the gate by a better team. Hard to pin any of the three tries on tiredness.

I suggested it.

Never seen them soak tackles like that this season and fall off so many. 66% tackle completion in the first half iirc. Which is nuts really. That's about their worst defensive performance in a long time I would think.

I would be more thinking mental tiredness than physical tbh. Just a tough couple of weeks of long travel and disjointed prep. Can't have helped anyway.

ProudIRISHman

irelandrover wrote: »

Didn't Leinster have the current premiership and top 14 champions in their group. Or do we just ignore that fact?

Munster had Toulon and Racing as their QF and SF. It doesn't get tougher than that. These are two of the most LETHAL teams in knock out games. Leinster had...Scarlets.

ProudIRISHman

Squatter wrote: »

Genuinely disgusting of you to suggest that J P Doyle was biased.

Mind you, you did get a biased "homer" ref for the Toulon game in TP - a ref. who could have stitched ye up in the very first moment if he had had the balls.

(Not to mention a TMO who spotted an invisible knock-on!)

Two tries disallowed says it all. He was in Racings pocket the whole game and cheated Munster out of a Champions Cup

irishbucsfan

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Munster had Toulon and Racing as their QF and SF. It doesn't get tougher than that. These are two of the most LETHAL teams in knock out games. Leinster had...Scarlets.

And Leinster had Saracens. You know, the current champions.

And the teams top of the Top 14, Pro 14 and Premiership in their group.

I can only guess you haven't been following things very closely.

prawnsambo

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Munster had Toulon and Racing as their QF and SF. It doesn't get tougher than that. These are two of the most LETHAL teams in knock out games. Leinster had...Scarlets.

What exactly have Racing won in this competition? Toulon yes, but Racing have achieved nothing yet.

And who beat Munster iin a final last year? ...Scarlets?

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

What exactly have Racing won in this competition?

Let me guess, is it the exact same as Scarlets? :pac:

ProudIRISHman

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And Leinster had Saracens. You know, the current champions.

And the teams top of the Top 14, Pro 14 and Premiership in their group.

I can only guess you haven't been following things very closely.

That means NOTHING. Connacht won the Pro14 recently and don't tell me that the year they won it if you had the option of playing them or Racing in the Champions Cup semis that you'd avoid 'last seasons Pro14 champions' and pick Racing.

We are talking about teams playing in a much more difficult league and how they perform in Europe in KNOCKOUT games. Leinster had it extremely lucky to get Scarlets. If the roles had been reversed it would have been Munster and not Leinster in the final.

The weird thing is I think Leinster will lose out to Racing in the final but I dont think Munster would have. Put a different ref there and the passion of Munster playing in a final and there is only one winner. However Leinster rely on a pack that hasnt truly been tested and Racing will steamroll their pack in the final in my opinion

ProudIRISHman

prawnsambo wrote: »

What exactly have Racing won in this competition? Toulon yes, but Racing have achieved nothing yet.

And who beat Munster iin a final last year? ...Scarlets?

They also beat Leinster more convincingly but as we know Pro14 form doesn't mean much when we're talking Europe. Munster are a heavyweight team and the Manchester United of Champions Cup Rugby. Scarlets are more like a Roma.

aloooof

Can SOMEONE post the INSTRUCTIONS on how to IGNORE a particular poster again? Thanks.

irishbucsfan

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

That means NOTHING. Connacht won the Pro14 recently and don't tell me that the year they won it if you had the option of playing them or Racing in the Champions Cup semis that you'd avoid 'last seasons Pro14 champions' and pick Racing.

We are talking about teams playing in a much more difficult league and how they perform in Europe in KNOCKOUT games. Leinster had it extremely lucky to get Scarlets. If the roles had been reversed it would have been Munster and not Leinster in the final.

The weird thing is I think Leinster will lose out to Racing in the final but I dont think Munster would have. Put a different ref there and the passion of Munster playing in a final and there is only one winner. However Leinster rely on a pack that hasnt truly been tested and Racing will steamroll their pack in the final in my opinion

Racing have never won the competition.

So clearly they're not so hot when it comes to KNOCKOUT games. Saracens meanwhile have won it multiple times, and we beat them this year. So you're proving NOTHING here.

It's nothing to do with luck whatsoever by the way, there is no draw, fixtures are decided by seeding. If you want different opponents, win more games.

Munster have an opportunity to play Leinster in KNOCKOUT rugby later on this season anyway, so we may well see.

prawnsambo

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

They also beat Leinster more convincingly but as we know Pro14 form doesn't mean much when we're talking Europe. Munster are a heavyweight team and the Manchester United of Champions Cup Rugby. Scarlets are more like a Roma.

Manchester United?

ProudDUB

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

You are dead wrong. This Munster side while not flair filled compared to Leinster have raw aggression, grit and determination and could easily turn over a Leinster side that has had it easy this Champions Cup run. While Leinster had Scarlets in the semis we got Racing and had a biased ref ruin any possible chance we had of winning. We beat Toulon and we would have been beaten Leinster.

The players and team is there, but we are ignored by the IRFU and are unlucky always with referees and draws.

However you go ahead and write off these brave warriors...we will show you! SUAF!!!

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

irishbucsfan

Are ProudDUB and ProudIRISHman related? Cousins perhaps?

kuang1

aloooof wrote: »

Can SOMEONE post the INSTRUCTIONS on how to IGNORE a particular poster again? Thanks.

Lmao here...I just made use of the ignore function myself.
I don't ever remember using it this hastily...ever!

ProudDUB

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are ProudDUB and ProudIRISHman related? Cousins perhaps?

Brothers in arms ?

(But right now, we're the big brother who stuffs the little brothers head down the toilet, flushes it and runs away with his pocket money, his Curly Wurly and his sippy cup, looking all innocent like...)

Burkie1203

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

passion of Munster

Welcome to boards Peter O'Mahony

ProudIRISHman

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Racing have never won the competition.

So clearly they're not so hot when it comes to KNOCKOUT games. Saracens meanwhile have won it multiple times, and we beat them this year. So you're proving NOTHING here.

It's nothing to do with luck whatsoever by the way, there is no draw, fixtures are decided by seeding. If you want different opponents, win more games.

Munster have an opportunity to play Leinster in KNOCKOUT rugby later on this season anyway, so we may well see.

Oh and I suppose Scarlets are world beaters? Would ya ever cop on like? Your clutching at straws. You and your grandmother knows that Racing are a far stronger side than Scarlets and that Toulon followed by Racing is a much, much more difficult draw than Saracens followed by Scarlets.

How do you expect us to win more games when we get unlucky all the time with refs and draws? We should have won yesterday but had two legit tries disallowed.

What happens in Pro14 knockouts is irrelevant. Leinster obviously care a lot about the league but most Munster fans want the european silverware to which we had become accustomed.

Burkie1203

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Oh and I suppose Scarlets are world beaters? Would ya ever cop on like? Your clutching at straws. You and your grandmother knows that Racing are a far stronger side than Scarlets and that Toulon followed by Racing is a much, much more difficult draw than Saracens followed by Scarlets.

How do you expect us to win more games when we get unlucky all the time with refs and draws? We should have won yesterday but had two legit tries disallowed.

What happens in Pro14 knockouts is irrelevant. Leinster obviously care a lot about the league but most Munster fans want the european silverware to which we had become accustomed.

The "draw" is a direct result of your group performances. Win your group games and you get the 'better' draw.

Munster have 2 European trophies. Leinster have 4. Just saying

irishbucsfan

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Oh and I suppose Scarlets are world beaters? Would ya ever cop on like? Your clutching at straws. You and your grandmother knows that Racing are a far stronger side than Scarlets and that Toulon followed by Racing is a much, much more difficult draw than Saracens followed by Scarlets.

How do you expect us to win more games when we get unlucky all the time with refs and draws? We should have won yesterday but had two legit tries disallowed.

What happens in Pro14 knockouts is irrelevant. Leinster obviously care a lot about the league but most Munster fans want the european silverware to which we had become accustomed.

There is no draw. How is that hard to understand?

Haha right, Munster became accustomed to European silverware by winning two pieces of it. Leinster won twice as much but never became accustomed. Good man! :pac:

No worries, I'm sure the team aren't self-victimising like you are, they'll be building on their weaknesses and they'll be back at the top in no time.

irelandrover

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Oh and I suppose Scarlets are world beaters? Would ya ever cop on like? Your clutching at straws. You and your grandmother knows that Racing are a far stronger side than Scarlets and that Toulon followed by Racing is a much, much more difficult draw than Saracens followed by Scarlets.

How do you expect us to win more games when we get unlucky all the time with refs and draws? We should have won yesterday but had two legit tries disallowed.

What happens in Pro14 knockouts is irrelevant. Leinster obviously care a lot about the league but most Munster fans want the european silverware to which we had become accustomed.

So what happens in Pro14 knockouts is irrelevant, what happens previously in the Champions Cup is irrelevant, what exactly are we allowed use to compare teams.

By using your logic Munster are by far the best team in Europe based on ???, and every other teams is ranked by some random logic??

Professor Moriarty

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

That means NOTHING. Connacht won the Pro14 recently and don't tell me that the year they won it if you had the option of playing them or Racing in the Champions Cup semis that you'd avoid 'last seasons Pro14 champions' and pick Racing.

We are talking about teams playing in a much more difficult league and how they perform in Europe in KNOCKOUT games. Leinster had it extremely lucky to get Scarlets. If the roles had been reversed it would have been Munster and not Leinster in the final.

The weird thing is I think Leinster will lose out to Racing in the final but I dont think Munster would have. Put a different ref there and the passion of Munster playing in a final and there is only one winner. However Leinster rely on a pack that hasnt truly been tested and Racing will steamroll their pack in the final in my opinion

Yeah, no. I think Leinster will beat Racing (hopefully). Here's the thing, Leinster would have beaten Munster well had Munster beaten Racing yesterday. And I say that as a Munster fan.

Your point about the Leinster pack is a complete mystery. Haven't been tested? How many of that pack played on the Grand Slam team?

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is no draw. How is that hard to understand?

Haha right, Munster became accustomed to European silverware by winning two pieces of it. Leinster won twice as much but never became accustomed. Good man! :pac:

No worries, I'm sure the team aren't self-victimising like you are, they'll be building on their weaknesses and they'll be back at the top in no time.

Is 'building on your weaknesses' not the opposite of what you intended to say?

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is 'building on your weaknesses' not the opposite of what you intended to say?

I don't think so, we might find out shortly

ProudIRISHman

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is no draw. How is that hard to understand?

Haha right, Munster became accustomed to European silverware by winning two pieces of it. Leinster won twice as much but never became accustomed. Good man! :pac:

No worries, I'm sure the team aren't self-victimising like you are, they'll be building on their weaknesses and they'll be back at the top in no time.

Leinster have won 3 Cups. The only cup where they had a hard run in was 2009. The other TWO wins were against the likes of Northampton and Ulster. As I state repeatedly LUCK OF THE DRAW boys. Munster won theirs against all odds in the hardest of circumstances.

irishbucsfan

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Leinster have won 3 Cups. The only cup where they had a hard run in was 2009. The other TWO wins were against the likes of Northampton and Ulster. As I state repeatedly LUCK OF THE DRAW boys. Munster won theirs against all odds in the hardest of circumstances.

Leinster have won 4 pieces of European silverware, actually. Which is the phrase you chose.

We've beaten the likes of Clermont, Leicester, Saracens, Toulouse, Munster on the way to those wins. Only in your extremely bizarre world were they easy. Beating Clermont in France in those days was the biggest task in European rugby, and we did it.

ProudIRISHman

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster have won 4 pieces of European silverware, actually. Which is the phrase you chose.

We've beaten the likes of Clermont, Leicester, Saracens, Toulouse, Munster on the way to those wins. Only in your extremely bizarre world were they easy. Beating Clermont in France in those days was the biggest task in European rugby, and we did it.

What years have Leinster won? 2009, 2011, 2012 only.

Oh let me guess....your including the Amlin right?>

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster have won 4 pieces of European silverware, actually. Which is the phrase you chose.

We've beaten the likes of Clermont, Leicester, Saracens, Toulouse, Munster on the way to those wins. Only in your extremely bizarre world were they easy. Beating Clermont in France in those days was the biggest task in European rugby, and we did it.

And Munster in Croker. Remember that? I remember having my view blocked with fifteen minutes to go by hordes of Munster fans leaving early.

prawnsambo

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

What years have Leinster won? 2009, 2011, 2012 only.

Oh let me guess....your including the Amlin right?>

European silverware. What you said boy.

ProudIRISHman

prawnsambo wrote: »

And Munster in Croker. Remember that? I remember having my view blocked with fifteen minutes to go by hordes of Munster fans leaving early.

I've given Leinster the kudos for 2009 for beating us in the semi finals but if I recall the referee was absolutely brutal that day and a misplaced pass and subsequent interception changed the game. Munster were unfortunate that day.

irelandrover

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Leinster have won 3 Cups. The only cup where they had a hard run in was 2009. The other TWO wins were against the likes of Northampton and Ulster. As I state repeatedly LUCK OF THE DRAW boys. Munster won theirs against all odds in the hardest of circumstances.

Would you get stop. You're embarrassing all us Munster with this, even if it is just joking.