ERCC SF: Racing 92 vs Munster; Sun 22nd April 3:15pm; BT Sport 3

Professor Moriarty

Akrasia wrote: »

Munster were far from their best. But they dominated the 2nd half and could have won if their possibly legitimate tries had been awarded

I think they dominated because Racing decided that they would simply focus on defence and hold out for the win. Racing were awesome in the first half and fully deserved to win. The final score flattered Munster.

Mc Love

Racing did their homework on us and i really don't know what we were doing for the week

Professor Moriarty

Burkie1203 wrote: »

In European terms
4 props today are good. But no more then that
Both Hookers are very good

Holland is a good player but again nowhere near top level. Kleyn would be a cut above Holland but still not top level in Euro context.

Pom and Stander were hugely disappointing today. Days like this you need your big game players. These two were anonymous which isn't acceptable
JOD isn't a 7 so can't be too harsh about him.

Early on Munster needed points to settle into the game. They went to the corner and didnt score and had two poor drop goal attempts. That's poor leadership. If as it looked like IK didn't want to take the shot so the ball should have been given to either Murray or R Scannell

Keatley is a good pro14 level player but that's where it ends. He makes too many glaring errors when kicking. Missing touch early on was criminal. You just can't do that at this level.

That garryowen from JJH was the most pointless kick I've ever seen. He just isn't good enough. Maybe Rory Scannell can be given a go at 10 if TB doesn't get back to last year's form.

Munster are 2 props, a 2nd row (Beirne will be good addition), a top class 7, 10 and 11/14/15 short at european level.

I think Conway at 15 is good enough and Cloete was playing out of his skin at 7. Other than that, you're spot on.

P.Walnuts

budhabob wrote: »

What ever about 10, we've a very good front 5. Scannell had an off day, actually scratch that, 1-23 had an off day

Scannell aside it's not a very good front 5.

Both locks are average, Kilcoyne is decent admittedly...Archer is not a European standard TH.

prawnsambo

Some of the selctions were wrong in retrospect. Zebo should have started as should Rhys Marshall. I thought Zebo's head was elsewhere (understandably) and that's why he was on the bench, but he showed the exact opposite when he came on. Scannell was too long out to be starting this game. Those two decisions alone had a detrimental effect.

Burkie1203

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think Conway at 15 is good enough and Cloete was playing out of his skin at 7. Other than that, you're spot on.

Conway is a very good player and Earls is top level. But Wooton, Sweetnam aren't in the same league so it's definitely an area of concern. With Zebo going there is definitely a gap in the back 3.

Cloete is very good but neither him or TOD are top class. It's not an area of weakness but it is an area where a good few of other sides are much stronger at this stage in europe

Bridge93

I wouldn't get hung up on the Zebo call. He's been awful for a while and it was understandable he dropped out. He came on at a point that suited his style of play and got to do what he does best. Maybe he should've started but Van Graans reasons for not are sound

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/paloughy/status/988106360792469512?s=19

prawnsambo

Bridge93 wrote: »

I wouldn't get hung up on the Zebo call. He's been awful for a while and it was understandable he dropped out. He came on at a point that suited his style of play and got to do what he does best. Maybe he should've started but Van Graans reasons for not are sound

I did say in retrospect. Zebo's a big game player and you'd hope he could have made a better fist of those tackles that Wootton fell off. But Scannell over Marshall was a mistake.

budhabob

prawnsambo wrote: »

I did say in retrospect. Zebo's a big game player and you'd hope he could have made a better fist of those tackles that Wootton fell off. But Scannell over Marshall was a mistake.

I disagree, scannell is the better hooker in my view, and zebo was well off form for months....so they were the correct calls, the team just played ****e.

Mc Love

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/paloughy/status/988106360792469512?s=19

The fan boys out in force. He's just not good enough but doesn't deserve fans coming up to his face saying it.

kuang1

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/paloughy/status/988106360792469512?s=19

Is he getting a lot of "abuse"? I'm not on twitter so maybe he is there.
Well I'm not an advocate of any player getting abuse from any quarter.

I know that tweet isn't in response to this forum, but I haven't seen Keatley getting abused here. Lot of comments about the type of player he his and what his limitations are, but nothing that could be classed as abuse...but I haven't read every single post today either.
But this:
"Anyone going to Thomomd all year will have seen a huge improvement from him this season."

Christ.

Frankly that's an insult to Keatley. Because if what he has produced this year is a "huge improvement" then how much of a bag o' shiite did you think he was before?????

Watched the highlights there. Performance aside, I hope we bury these lads in three weeks for that bull**** Tomás pulled for his third try. Disrespecting Munster and the fixture.

Professor Moriarty

kuang1 wrote: »

Is he getting a lot of "abuse"? I'm not on twitter so maybe he is there.
Well I'm not an advocate of any player getting abuse from any quarter.

I know that tweet isn't in response to this forum, but I haven't seen Keatley getting abused here. Lot of comments about the type of player he his and what his limitations are, but nothing that could be classed as abuse...but I haven't read every single post today either.
But this:
"Anyone going to Thomomd all year will have seen a huge improvement from him this season."

Christ.

Frankly that's an insult to Keatley. Because if what he has produced this year is a "huge improvement" then how much of a bag o' shiite did you think he was before?????

It's hard to criticise any player, especially when they're better than an average player, but at the very top level Keatley simply isn't good enough. By comparison, even though he's an exception, Sexton is light years ahead. At the very least, Munster need a 10 who is at least in the same league as Sexton if they want to compete at this level. At the moment, Munster don't have a 10 who can fill that role.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Watched the highlights there. Performance aside, I hope we bury these lads in three weeks for that bull**** Tomás pulled for his third try. Disrespecting Munster and the fixture.

Ah, I wouldn't get excited about it. He was on a hat trick and gave it to his captain. A Munster player should have tackled him. That would have been fun.

Burkie1203

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah, I wouldn't get excited about it. He was on a hat trick and gave it to his captain. A Munster player should have tackled him. That would have been fun.

Was it Thomas who dropped the ball on a run in a few months ago?

turnikett1

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

kuang1 wrote: »

Is he getting a lot of "abuse"? I'm not on twitter so maybe he is there.
Well I'm not an advocate of any player getting abuse from any quarter.

I know that tweet isn't in response to this forum,  but I haven't seen Keatley getting abused here. Lot of comments about the type of player he his and what his limitations are, but nothing that could be classed as abuse...but I haven't read every single post today either.
But this:
"Anyone going to Thomomd all year will have seen a huge improvement from him this season."

Christ.

Frankly that's an insult to Keatley. Because if what he has produced this year is a "huge improvement" then how much of a bag o' shiite did you think he was before?????

It's hard to criticise any player, especially when they're better than an average player, but at the very top level Keatley simply isn't good enough. By comparison, even though he's an exception, Sexton is light years ahead. At the very least, Munster need a 10 who is at least in the same league as Sexton if they want to compete at this level. At the moment, Munster don't have a 10 who can fill that role.

Finding a 10 in the same league as Sexton is a bit of a massive ask. But I agree, we (Munster) need a much better out-half than Keatley. As someone said earlier missing that first kick into touch at the start of the game was absolute criminal. It's always a gamble at which Keatley shows up, after that kick into touch, followed by that frankly idiotic shot at drop goal, I knew well what type of day Keatley and Munster were going to have.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Watched the highlights there. Performance aside, I hope we bury these lads in three weeks for that bull**** Tomás pulled for his third try. Disrespecting Munster and the fixture.

French gambling watchdog (is there such a thing?) should look into any unusual betting on anytime tryscorers!

Professor Moriarty

turnikett1 wrote: »

Finding a 10 in the same league as Sexton is a bit of a massive ask. But I agree, we (Munster) need a much better out-half than Keatley. As someone said earlier missing that first kick into touch at the start of the game was absolute criminal. It's always a gamble at which Keatley shows up, after that kick into touch, followed by that frankly idiotic shot at drop goal, I knew well what type of day Keatley and Munster were going to have.

What do you think of Scannell having a run at 10?

Buer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's hard to criticise any player, especially when they're better than an average player, but at the very top level Keatley simply isn't good enough. By comparison, even though he's an exception, Sexton is light years ahead. At the very least, Munster need a 10 who is at least in the same league as Sexton if they want to compete at this level. At the moment, Munster don't have a 10 who can fill that role.

I don't think anyone really ever thought differently. He's someone that is never going to be a top end player but is a solid performer at the standard level. But he is an easy figure for people to point the finger at.

Conor Murray was poor today and POM was downright anonymous. He's supposed to be an excellent breakdown operator and his side was turned over multiple times. In terms of what you're expecting from Keatley, Murray and POM relatively, I would suggest that the latter two underperformed to a greater extent than Keatley.

Wishing for an outhalf at the level of Sexton is pointless. There are only one or two others in the world at that level and no province could afford them. Leinster won't have someone at that level when Sexton retires. A team can't be dependent on such a signing.

Professor Moriarty

Buer wrote: »

I don't think anyone really ever thought differently. He's someone that is never going to be a top end player but is a solid performer at the standard level. But he is an easy figure for people to point the finger at.

Conor Murray was poor today and POM was downright anonymous. He's supposed to be an excellent breakdown operator and his side was turned over multiple times. In terms of what you're expecting from Keatley, Murray and POM relatively, I would suggest that the latter two underperformed to a greater extent than Keatley.

I agree, that's fair. But your point illustrates the reality that Keatley really shouldn't have started today. He's not good enough at the top level even on a good day whereas CM and POM on their day are definitely top level players. Keatley is a solid 10 for the Pro 12. But that's all, he's never had any stand out games for Munster (that I've ever seen anyway).

lawred2

turnikett1 wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

kuang1 wrote: »

Is he getting a lot of "abuse"? I'm not on twitter so maybe he is there.
Well I'm not an advocate of any player getting abuse from any quarter.

I know that tweet isn't in response to this forum,  but I haven't seen Keatley getting abused here. Lot of comments about the type of player he his and what his limitations are, but nothing that could be classed as abuse...but I haven't read every single post today either.
But this:
"Anyone going to Thomomd all year will have seen a huge improvement from him this season."

Christ.

Frankly that's an insult to Keatley. Because if what he has produced this year is a "huge improvement" then how much of a bag o' shiite did you think he was before?????

It's hard to criticise any player, especially when they're better than an average player, but at the very top level Keatley simply isn't good enough. By comparison, even though he's an exception, Sexton is light years ahead. At the very least, Munster need a 10 who is at least in the same league as Sexton if they want to compete at this level. At the moment, Munster don't have a 10 who can fill that role.

Finding a 10 in the same league as Sexton is a bit of a massive ask. But I agree, we (Munster) need a much better out-half than Keatley. As someone said earlier missing that first kick into touch at the start of the game was absolute criminal. It's always a gamble at which Keatley shows up, after that kick into touch, followed by that frankly idiotic shot at drop goal, I knew well what type of day Keatley and Munster were going to have.

And Hanrahan is not it

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

Conor Murray was poor today and POM was downright anonymous. He's supposed to be an excellent breakdown operator and his side was turned over multiple times. In terms of what you're expecting from Keatley, Murray and POM relatively, I would suggest that the latter two underperformed to a greater extent than Keatley.
.

IK missing touch by 7 or 8 metres is unforgivable but as you said others underperformed by a far greater degree.

POM was anonymous. Munsters lineout was a mess, and there was a clear leadership void early on IMO.

Murray was terrible. I can't remember him every passing so poorly. IIRC he passed to nobody 4 or 5 times. For a guy touted as the world's beat that was an awful performance

Stander was also largely anonymous. I'm sure he carried loads and worked hard but there was little or no positive impact.

That's 3 Lions. All miles below par in your biggest game of the season



If you picked a 23 from the Leinster and Munster based purely over the weekend you would be hard pushed to pick any Munster player.

prawnsambo

To be fair, Murray was having the opposite of an armchair ride and he (like any scrumhalf) doesn't go well in those circumstances. He can't protect the ball and get the team moving at the same time. As much as Munster need a better ten, Murray needs it even more. To have somebody who can pick the plays behind hiim and at least give him the time to just get the ball away without having to work it all out on his own would be a real help. Too much to expect him to do everything and his frustration showed.

Buer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

But that's all, he's never had any stand out games for Munster (that I've ever seen anyway).

Ah, that's just hyperbole. He has multiple MOTM awards for Munster over the years. He was excellent in the double header against Leicester. That's generally the limit of his abilities though, European knock out games is a step further and he's never going to be good enough to rely on for that level.

CatFromHue

Burkie1203 wrote: »

If you picked a 23 from the Leinster and Munster based purely over the weekend you would be hard pushed to pick any Munster player.

Andrew Conway maybe :pac:

Mc Love

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

. Keatley is a solid 10 for the Pro 12. But that's all, he's never had any stand out games for Munster (that I've ever seen anyway).

I'm not his biggest advocate but he played brilliant against Toulon just a few weeks ago, he doesn't have many of those games but he did really really well in that game. POM and CM have a lot of those games so don't get as much stick when they have a poor game.

Professor Moriarty

Buer wrote: »

Ah, that's just hyperbole. He has multiple MOTM awards for Munster over the years. He was excellent in the double header against Leicester. That's generally the limit of his abilities though, European knock out games is a step further and he's never going to be good enough to rely on for that level.

Multiple? How many is multiple? How many MOTMs in how many matches? Look, he's had some good games for Munster, of course, but he's not an outstanding player, he's a good average professional rugby player. That's it. And I don't like saying that. Munster need a 10 who is a better than Keatley and that's based on his performances over the years, not just today.

budhabob

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What do you think of Scannell having a run at 10?

I'd love to see it given a try. When Farrell and taute are back fit would be the ideal time

Professor Moriarty

Mc Love wrote: »

I'm not his biggest advocate but he played brilliant against Toulon just a few weeks ago, he doesn't have many of those games but he did really really well in that game. POM and CM have a lot of those games so don't get as much stick when they have a poor game.

Fair enough, he played well that day. But as you say, he doesn't have many of those days. I've seen him play consistently badly too. You couldn't say that about POM or CM.

Former Former

Keatley has just been promoted beyond his ability due to circumstances. He's not remotely good enough for this level but it was never the plan that he'd be there on days like today.

Munster have to sign someone. They can't rely on Bleyendaal and JJ is crap.

Professor Moriarty

budhabob wrote: »

I'd love to see it given a try. When Farrell and taute are back fit would be the ideal time

So would I. He's very astute with ball in hand and he kicks very well too.

Richard308

Have to hope Tyler recovers fully in off season from injury. And you know what else I think we should sign grobbler on a longer contract. He was immense after he came on and showed real Munster heart. I’m against drug use. But he was young and foolish. He will pay for the rest of his life by not playing for his country which he was capable of doing going on todays performance. Can’t think of a much worse punishment.

thomond2006

Richard308 wrote: »

Have to hope Tyler recovers fully in off season from injury. And you know what else I think we should sign grobbler on a longer contract. He was immense after he came on and showed real Munster heart. I’m against drug use. But he was young and foolish. He will pay for the rest of his life by not playing for his country which he was capable of doing going on todays performance. Can’t think of a much worse punishment.

Grobler won't be re-signed. Although Kleyn qualified after next season they won't allow another NIE player at lock plus Beirne is coming in.

prawnsambo

budhabob wrote: »

I disagree, scannell is the better hooker in my view, and zebo was well off form for months....so they were the correct calls, the team just played ****e.

He is the better hooker. But he's just back from a long injury layoff and it showed.

Buer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Multiple? How many is multiple? How many MOTMs in how many matches? Look, he's had some good games for Munster, of course, but he's not an outstanding player, he's a good average professional rugby player. That's it. And I don't like saying that. Munster need a 10 who is a better than Keatley and that's based on his performances over the years, not just today.

I'm hardly going to go through every match Munster have played since his arrival to count them. A simple check shows that he has won a couple in the past 12 months though and I know he won the award against Leinster at least once in the last few seasons. I would imagine he probably has about a dozen of them if we wanted to go back through.

My point being that it's complete hyperbole to say that "he's never had any stand out games for Munster". What about when he nailed the injury time drop goal in Sale?

There's no doubt that Munster could do with a better outhalf. But that's very easy to say. They're extremely hard to come by particularly with the limitations placed on Irish provinces. Munster will be doing well to acquire someone significantly better and I've no doubt they've been trying for some time.

sydthebeat

Richard308 wrote: »

Have to hope Tyler recovers fully in off season from injury. And you know what else I think we should sign grobbler on a longer contract. He was immense after he came on and showed real Munster heart. I’m against drug use. But he was young and foolish. He will pay for the rest of his life by not playing for his country which he was capable of doing going on todays performance. Can’t think of a much worse punishment.

To should be cutting TB loose at this stage, the guy is a permanent sick note, and the one position you need consistency at is 10. Keatley is a fine 22 and the occasional pro 14 start, but if munster want to progress to silver ware they need at least one top level 10.

Assuming 2 out halves with Ireland, that means we need 6 top level 10s to be playing with the provinces. From what I can see we have two and a half, with the half being Ross Byrne.

Ulster are (rumor mill in overload) illogically going to let a young 10 move to England, and be looking to recruit one of Leinster's tens.

Looking at munster from the outside, they have to give scannal a run to see if he's up to it. Hanrahan isn't, keatley is what he is, TB is not dependable.

Squatter

Richard308 wrote: »

And you know what else I think we should sign grobbler on a longer contract. He was immense after he came on and showed real Munster heart. I’m against drug use. But he was young and foolish. He will pay for the rest of his life by not playing for his country which he was capable of doing going on todays performance. Can’t think of a much worse punishment.

I think he has already signed for Gloucester next season.

Professor Moriarty

Buer wrote: »

I'm hardly going to go through every match Munster have played since his arrival to count them. A simple check shows that he has won a couple in the past 12 months though and I know he won the award against Leinster at least once in the last few seasons. I would imagine he probably has about a dozen of them if we wanted to go back through.

My point being that it's complete hyperbole to say that "he's never had any stand out games for Munster". What about when he nailed the injury time drop goal in Sale?

Okay. I'll take that back. He's had too few stand out games over the years and at times had runs of poor games which, IMO, disqualifies him as a starting 10 for Munster in big games.

kuang1

Former Former wrote: »

Keatley has just been promoted beyond his ability due to circumstances. He's not remotely good enough for this level but it was never the plan that he'd be there on days like today.

Munster have to sign someone. They can't rely on Bleyendaal and JJ is crap.

This.

Sadly though...who do you sign? Pickings are slim up there on the out-half supermarket shelf.

As others have said Scannel should be tried there imo.
Or get Bill Johnston resigned and invest in him.
(Anyone know why he hasn't been resigned yet btw?)

flutered

Buer wrote: »

Ah, that's just hyperbole. He has multiple MOTM awards for Munster over the years. He was excellent in the double header against Leicester. That's generally the limit of his abilities though, European knock out games is a step further and he's never going to be good enough to rely on for that level.

the reason he is not holding down the no2 irish spot is..

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

To should be cutting TB loose at this stage, the guy is a permanent sick note, and the one position you need consistency at is 10. Keatley is a fine 22 and the occasional pro 14 start, but if munster want to progress to silver ware they need at least one top level 10.

How do they come by that though? I'd be interested as to who people see as a top level 10 and then whether they think a province could attract someone like that.

In terms of top level outhalves playing in Europe, I would say there are:

- Sexton and Jackson in Ireland
- Farrell and Ford in England (the vast majority of outhalves are a similar level of Keatley...McGinty, Billy Burns, Myler and a couple of older guys like Flood and Gopperth who wouldn't be wanted by most either)
- Russell in Scotland...who is liable to have a howler
- Biggar in Wales with two others (Patchell and Anscombe) who are good but not European Cup winning good
- eight or nine in France who are mostly there because they're being paid silly money that Munster could never offer

Any top SH player is going to look at France first of all for money so Irish provinces need to look at the next tier and roll the dice on guys like TB. The biggest chance is developing our own but is going to take a lot of time and people will need to accept that it won't happen overnight or may not even happen in the next 2-3 years.

Burkie1203

Just caught the end of something on the radio there. ATC in france have gone on strike which will impact flights from Bordeaux. When it ain't your day ......

flutered

Akrasia wrote: »

We have excellent players, Taute, Cloete, Chris farrell, Bleyandaal...

t.b. spends more time in rehab than he does on the field

P.Walnuts

Let's say Scannell is given a go at 10

Has Arnold much experience at 12?

Arnold/Farrell midfield could be promising

typhoony

Munster didn't lose due to Keatley, if Beauden Barret had played they would still have lost. the defensive plan as a collective failed and individually in the backline not having the skills required to close the gaps and make the hits\tackles.

prawnsambo

typhoony wrote: »

Munster didn't lose due to Keatley, if Beauden Barret had played they would still have lost. the defensive plan as a collective failed and individually in the backline not having the skills required to close the gaps and make the hits\tackles.

From what Labit was saying post match, it seems they set out to nullify Munster's pack with a 40 minute blitz. It's quite possible that's all they had in the tank. He spoke about having to go the full 80 with Leinster. Not sure that's an option though.

kuang1

typhoony wrote: »

Munster didn't lose due to Keatley, if Beauden Barret had played they would still have lost. the defensive plan as a collective failed and individually in the backline not having the skills required to close the gaps and make the hits\tackles.

All true other than I would think that the defensive plan might have been fine.
However due to a combination of Racing's relentless and animalesque savagery in every contact and Munster failing to get themselves in the proper mental state taking the pitch, we were steam-rollered. Literally.

JP Liz V1

Racing must be happy with Zebo

digzy

How does the recruitment work?
Do the provinces 'find' players and get the go ahead from the Irfu or is it a case of the irfu recruiting players and placing em with the provinces as they see fit?

I'm presuming Leinster have a much larger budget than us?

When you look at racings budget vs ours ....... there can only be one winner.
It's amazing how competitive Leinster and Munster have been

Leinster have amazing indigenous talent but they've re recruited extremely well.