ERCC SF: Racing 92 vs Munster; Sun 22nd April 3:15pm; BT Sport 3

digzy

digzy wrote: »

How does the recruitment work?
Do the provinces 'find' players and get the go ahead from the Irfu or is it a case of the irfu recruiting players and placing em with the provinces as they see fit?

I'm presuming Leinster have a much larger budget than us?

When you look at racings budget vs ours ....... there can only be one winner.
It's amazing how competitive Leinster and Munster have been

Leinster have amazing indigenous talent but they've re recruited extremely well.

The provinces find players and the IRFU give the go ahead. No Leinster don't have a bigger budget, why would they?

Budgets is a cop out. The provinces have so much going for them compared to the French and English club sides, huge advantages in terms of being parts of the IRFU, player management, etc.

digzy

Amiya Brief Art wrote: »

The provinces find players and the IRFU give the go ahead. No Leinster don't have a bigger budget, why would they?

Just assumed there's more rich fcukers there prepared to donate to the side.

digzy

digzy wrote: »

Just assumed there's more rich fcukers there prepared to donate to the side.

Well there aren't.

Lucy8080

prawnsambo wrote: »

From what Labit was saying post match, it seems they set out to nullify Munster's pack with a 40 minute blitz. It's quite possible that's all they had in the tank. He spoke about having to go the full 80 with Leinster. Not sure that's an option though.

Playing possum (I reckon)in the hope that Leinster would entertain the notion of soaking up pressure and play a conservative first half in the final.

Leinster's intensity for the whole match yesterday scared the sh1t out of me, and i'm a Leinster supporter.

Munster had a dire first half, and yet ,they created enough opportunities to make the scoreboard a lot tighter at half-time.

Just one of those bad day's for Munster. It happens.

digzy

If you use the national selection as a yardstick

Leinster have
5 of the 6 front row
2 of the 3 second row
2 of the 4 back row
2 of the 3 out halves
First choice centres
3 of the 5 back 3

Positions nailed down.

You'd wonder how sustainable it is for the national sides 'squad' players to be warming the provincial bench while fellas who're not within an asses roar of the national squad start regularly for the other provinces.

PhlegmyMoses

digzy wrote: »

If you use the national selection as a yardstick

Leinster have
5 of the 6 front row
2 of the 3 second row
2 of the 4 back row
2 of the 3 out halves
First choice centres
3 of the 5 back 3

Positions nailed down.

You'd wonder how sustainable it is for the national sides 'squad' players to be warming the provincial bench while fellas who're not within an asses roar of the national squad start regularly for the other provinces.

The only thing that this isn't taking into account is the age and injury profile of players. The likes of Sexton, SOB, Kearney, Toner, Ferg, Healy etc are all the wrong side of 30 and many have had huge amounts of injury woes in the last couple of years. I have a feeling that more than one of thise will ve calling it a day internationally after RWC19. In the short term, I guess it would benefit the national team but Leinster also needs to be able to plan longer term.

A balance needs to be struck. Jordi Murphy heading on made sense (although it's a bit less of a sure thing with SOB and Ruddock being constantly injured and Heaslip retiring). The Carbery and Byrne situation less so given Sextons age and shaky injury profile. I mean, Sexton only started with Ireland well into his 20s. Never harmed him.

Dave_The_Sheep

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

A balance needs to be struck. Jordi Murphy heading on made sense...

At the time, sure. As you say, far less so now.

The Lost Sheep

Mc Love wrote: »

Funnily enough, I'm not the only one in this thread that can see what I've been seeing for a long time. If it means i have to beat the drum until the people with Rose tinted glasses can see through the fog.

:rolleyes: You have some fair points but ruin those by needlessly going over the top with completely unfair criticisms....

Burkie1203 wrote: »

In European terms
4 props today are good. But no more then that
Both Hookers are very good

Holland is a good player but again nowhere near top level. Kleyn would be a cut above Holland but still not top level in Euro context.

Pom and Stander were hugely disappointing today. Days like this you need your big game players. These two were anonymous which isn't acceptable
JOD isn't a 7 so can't be too harsh about him.

Early on Munster needed points to settle into the game. They went to the corner and didnt score and had two poor drop goal attempts. That's poor leadership. If as it looked like IK didn't want to take the shot so the ball should have been given to either Murray or R Scannell

Keatley is a good pro14 level player but that's where it ends. He makes too many glaring errors when kicking. Missing touch early on was criminal. You just can't do that at this level.

That garryowen from JJH was the most pointless kick I've ever seen. He just isn't good enough. Maybe Rory Scannell can be given a go at 10 if TB doesn't get back to last year's form.

Munster are 2 props, a 2nd row (Beirne will be good addition), a top class 7, 10 and 11/14/15 short at european level.

I dont see any reason why Holland should be criticised especially if he's beside a Klyen or whoever else. Thats far from a problem Munster need fixing.
I dont see how Munster are a full back 3 short. Like where are you putting Earls?
Scannell was a 10 at age grade but dont see him going back to play much at 10 as Munster want him and need him at 12.

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Conway is a very good player and Earls is top level. But Wooton, Sweetnam aren't in the same league so it's definitely an area of concern. With Zebo going there is definitely a gap in the back 3.

Cloete is very good but neither him or TOD are top class. It's not an area of weakness but it is an area where a good few of other sides are much stronger at this stage in europe

Wootton and Sweetnam are still 23/24. They can and are still developing i dont really see a need for a signing there.

digzy wrote: »

How does the recruitment work?
Do the provinces 'find' players and get the go ahead from the Irfu or is it a case of the irfu recruiting players and placing em with the provinces as they see fit?

I'm presuming Leinster have a much larger budget than us?

When you look at racings budget vs ours ....... there can only be one winner.
It's amazing how competitive Leinster and Munster have been

Leinster have amazing indigenous talent but they've re recruited extremely well.

No Leinster dont have a much larger budget. Provinces look for players and agents etc go to provinces as well. IRFU have to approve all signings.

digzy wrote: »

If you use the national selection as a yardstick

Leinster have
5 of the 6 front row
2 of the 3 second row
2 of the 4 back row
2 of the 3 out halves
First choice centres
3 of the 5 back 3

Positions nailed down.

You'd wonder how sustainable it is for the national sides 'squad' players to be warming the provincial bench while fellas who're not within an asses roar of the national squad start regularly for the other provinces.

Its not good for the irish team or game with such a dominant province but unlikely to change

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its not good for the irish team or game with such a dominant province but unlikely to change

It doesn't really need to change. The hard decisions need to be made on transfers though.

I don't recall this being a problem when Munster were bulk suppliers to the Ireland team.

Burkie1203

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

:rolleyes: You have some fair points but ruin those by needlessly going over the top with completely unfair criticisms....

I dont see any reason why Holland should be criticised especially if he's beside a Klyen or whoever else. Thats far from a problem Munster need fixing.
I dont see how Munster are a full back 3 short. Like where are you putting Earls?
Scannell was a 10 at age grade but dont see him going back to play much at 10 as Munster want him and need him at 12.

Wootton and Sweetnam are still 23/24. They can and are still developing i dont really see a need for a signing there.

Holland is a backrow really. It's not a criticism. In European terms he is a good player but that's it. Munster have addressed this area with Beirne's signing.

In terms of the back 3, Munster are 1 player short with Zebo going IMO. When I said 11/14/15 I meant one player. Not an entire back 3. Sweetnam and Wooton are good but I don't think their ceilings are particularly high. Maybe Taute can switch to full back. Who knows.

Shefwedfan

Amiya Brief Art wrote: »

I don't recall this being a problem when Munster were bulk suppliers to the Ireland team.

Ahhh but that was different because.......eh ahh ehhh......

Well it was different because it was Munster.....ok!!!!

Former Former

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Holland is a backrow really. It's not a criticism. In European terms he is a good player but that's it. Munster have addressed this area with Beirne's signing.

In terms of the back 3, Munster are 1 player short with Zebo going IMO. When I said 11/14/15 I meant one player. Not an entire back 3. Sweetnam and Wooton are good but I don't think their ceilings are particularly high. Maybe Taute can switch to full back. Who knows.

They've signed Mike Haley at full back for next season, can't say I know much about him but it's new blood anyway.

c.p.w.g.w

Munsters biggest issue, is we don't have a top out half.

Keats is a good player, but his not shown the ability to take charge and boss a big European game.

But unfortunately I can't see that changing anytime soon, IRFU have just exiled a top out half, so now needs to shuffle the pack by moving someone from Leinster to Ulster.

Any saffers out there who would be interested and good enough to be an upgrade on Keats?

prawnsambo

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Munsters biggest issue, is we don't have a top out half.

Keats is a good player, but his not shown the ability to take charge and boss a big European game.

But unfortunately I can't see that changing anytime soon, IRFU have just exiled a top out half, so now needs to shuffle the pack by moving someone from Leinster to Ulster.

Any saffers out there who would be interested and good enough to be an upgrade on Keats?

SA would be the obvious location to scout given the connections. But the Super Rugby season has just started, so the pickings would be slim enough.

Former Former

Signing an out half might be complicated by the fact that Connacht have now signed some Aussie bloke whose name escapes me.

Former Former

Signing an out half might be complicated by the fact that Connacht have now signed some Aussie bloke whose name escapes me.

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

Signing an out half might be complicated by the fact that Connacht have now signed some Aussie bloke whose name escapes me.

How can you forget a name like Godwin

flatty

You're all pretty down on Munster. I'm a Connacht man,and have no great love for Munster rugby, but with the individuals racing have, if they decided to switch it on as a team, they were always going to be outstanding. They did just this for as long as they needed to, and then sat back a bit. Munster have had a grand season. Rebuilding. Trouble is that Leinster are way ahead at the moment, but that Leinster talent will serve everyone well as it trickles outward for game time. Munster shouldn't be looking abroad for an out half. Jj needs his confidence rebuilding, but I am absolutely certain that there is more than one irish lad around with everything needed.
From a purely rugby PoV, they could do worse than paddy Jackson tbh, though I really don't want to derail the thread with more of that crap.
It mightn't have been an European epic performance, but it wasn't that bad, they fought well, and were playing a juggernaut of world talent. Dan Carter on the bench like.

Buer

flatty wrote: »

You're all pretty down on Munster. I'm a Connacht man,and have no great love for Munster rugby, but with the individuals racing have, if they decided to switch it on as a team, they were always going to be outstanding. They did just this for as long as they needed to, and then sat back a bit. Munster have had a grand season. Rebuilding. Trouble is that Leinster are way ahead at the moment, but that Leinster talent will serve everyone well as it trickles outward for game time. Munster shouldn't be looking abroad for an out half. Jj needs his confidence rebuilding, but I am absolutely certain that there is more than one irish lad around with everything needed.
From a purely rugby PoV, they could do worse than paddy Jackson tbh, though I really don't want to derail the thread with more of that crap.
It mightn't have been an European epic performance, but it wasn't that bad, they fought well, and were playing a juggernaut of world talent. Dan Carter on the bench like.

As I posted elsewhere, I'd be shocked if Munster didn't at least raise the notion of signing Jackson internally in a couple of years although it might well be shot down immediately. But Keatley, Bleyendaal and JJH are all signed up for next season already so I don't think there will be any signing for another year at least.

In relation to the performance, Racing were good but Munster made them look better than they are. Their breakdown work and effort in defence was excellent. But their tries came from simple, straightforward missed tackles by the likes of Wooton and Murray along with poor communication. The opening try was a simple missed tackle. Munster had the numbers in defence but were far too narrow.

The second try was a simple miss by Murray on halfway and the defensive line was blown wide open. Again, no issue with numbers. The 3rd was the only one where I'd say there was a clear overlap. It was difficult for Wooton as he was trying to cover the wider man also but he still made it very easy as did POM who didn't lay a finger on Thomas.

If Munster had simply done the basics right in defence for the opening 20 minutes, they could have won that game. Racing are capable of some brilliant play but they didn't need to show it yesterday with the ball in hand anyway. Their breakdown intensity and physicality was the only area I'd say they were genuinely excellent in.

Professor Moriarty

flatty wrote: »

You're all pretty down on Munster. I'm a Connacht man,and have no great love for Munster rugby, but with the individuals racing have, if they decided to switch it on as a team, they were always going to be outstanding. They did just this for as long as they needed to, and then sat back a bit. Munster have had a grand season. Rebuilding. Trouble is that Leinster are way ahead at the moment, but that Leinster talent will serve everyone well as it trickles outward for game time. Munster shouldn't be looking abroad for an out half. Jj needs his confidence rebuilding, but I am absolutely certain that there is more than one irish lad around with everything needed.
From a purely rugby PoV, they could do worse than paddy Jackson tbh, though I really don't want to derail the thread with more of that crap.
It mightn't have been an European epic performance, but it wasn't that bad, they fought well, and were playing a juggernaut of world talent. Dan Carter on the bench like.

Jackson won't happen. Have you any names that might step up to being a very good 10? My best shot is to try Scannell.

prawnsambo

Munster were soaking tackles though. I wouldn't really blame the lads who missed tackles because they were back-peddling every time Racing carried. There were far too many attempts to tackle high rather than chop as Racing were doing. Racing set out to exploit this and did very well. But it was at a furious pace that they could really only sustain for 40 minutes. They needed to get the job done in that time and they did.

Akrasia

I don't know why the focus is on Keatley after this game. He made some errors but he didn't cost us the game. Our lineout and our Maul, two of our most powerful attacking options weren't firing and when these failed, the team ran out of ideas and panicked.

twinytwo

Munster hardly played and the game was still there for the taking.

I would be very very surprised if Leinster don't steam roll racing off the pitch.

Buer

twinytwo wrote: »

Munster hardly played and the game was still there for the taking.

I would be very very surprised if Leinster don't steam roll racing off the pitch.

If Munster had scored in that sustained spell of pressure before half time, I think they'd have won. It would have been a blow to Racing to concede right then. The ball was crying out to be moved but it just went through the forwards again and again.

Even if Munster had scored first in the second half, they'd have had a shot. A moment of stupidity cost them that which sort of summed up how wobbly they were mentally on the day. I'd consider Murray the most rock solid player in Irish rugby when it comes to mentality.

lawred2

Buer wrote: »

If Munster had scored in that sustained spell of pressure before half time, I think they'd have won. It would have been a blow to Racing to concede right then. The ball was crying out to be moved but it just went through the forwards again and again.

Even if Munster had scored first in the second half, they'd have had a shot. A moment of stupidity cost them that which sort of summed up how wobbly they were mentally on the day. I'd consider Murray the most rock solid player in Irish rugby when it comes to mentality.

Munster lacked any subtlety whatsoever during those phases leading up to half time... was all one up running - hash bash stuff.. When they finally did try to throw wide the passes were either poor or rushed. There were a few occasions where simply going through the hands would have put them in but the passing was abject..

Maybe the trip to SA was simply too much of a good time.. Almost like an end of season trip..

Professor Moriarty

lawred2 wrote: »

Munster lacked any subtlety whatsoever during those phases leading up to half time... was all one up running - hash bash stuff.. When they finally did try to throw wide the passes were either poor or rushed. There were a few occasions where simply going through the hands would have put them in but the passing was abject..

Maybe the trip to SA was simply too much of a good time.. Almost like an end of season trip..

Racing sat back in the second half. Had they continued in the same vein as the first half for the first 15 minutes they would have scored another try. Munster never looked to be in Racing's league.

prawnsambo

lawred2 wrote: »

Munster lacked any subtlety whatsoever during those phases leading up to half time... was all one up running - hash bash stuff.. When they finally did try to throw wide the passes were either poor or rushed. There were a few occasions where simply going through the hands would have put them in but the passing was abject..

Maybe the trip to SA was simply too much of a good time.. Almost like an end of season trip..

That's a good point about the SA trip. I don't think it was an end of season feel that was the problem rather than the long travelling and not having the same access to facilities they would have had at home. Add in playing at altitude and it could well have been too draining. Just getting back from that and then having to travel again. It would sap the energy of anyone.

molloyjh

I actually think the game was still on right up until that big hail mary pass from Zebo. There were 15 mins left, they were down a man and Munster had finally begun to build real momentum. Racing were going backwards at a rate of knots and there was a score coming. Had Munster gotten a converted try with 10-12 to go it would have been 27-15. 2 converted tries and Munster win it. Racing might have been able to turn it back on, but I think when you switch off like that it can be very hard to regain the momentum.

prawnsambo

Anyone know why the two starting Racing props were subbed back on again in the last couple of minutes? I know Szarzewski had to go off with a wrist or hand injury, but Racing finished with the same front row that started. After it being subbed off around the 50th minute.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

If Munster had scored in that sustained spell of pressure before half time,

How Munster had so many 5m scrums in front of the posts and didn't come close to manufacturing a score off any of them is beyond me.

Honestly, if Munster had reacted ferociously to the first try then things might have been different. Their answer instead was to let in another equally soft try.

It was a performance that was so bad it could hardly have happened. Certainly Keatley contributed to the loss, but he contributed in a small way with a below average but not particularly below average performance.

Murray, Stander, POM, the entire front row were all a lot more below average than Keatley was.

He's such an easy target to wash over where the bulk of the failings actually occurred.

c.p.w.g.w

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How Munster had so many 5m scrums in front of the posts and didn't come close to manufacturing a score off any of them is beyond me.

Honestly, if Munster had reacted ferociously to the first try then things might have been different. There answer instead was to let in another equally soft try.

It was a performance that was so bad it could hardly have happened. Certainly Keatley contributed to the loss, but he contributed in a small way with a below average but not particularly below average performance.

Murray, Stander, POM, the entire front row were all a lot more below average than Keatley was.

He's such an easy target to wash over where the bulk of the failings actually occurred.

Totally agree, but going forward I think 10 is Munsters biggest issue. IRFU will restrict who they can sign, especially since NIQ 10 signed for Connacht

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

I actually think the game was still on right up until that big hail mary pass from Zebo. There were 15 mins left, they were down a man and Munster had finally begun to build real momentum. Racing were going backwards at a rate of knots and there was a score coming. Had Munster gotten a converted try with 10-12 to go it would have been 27-15. 2 converted tries and Munster win it. Racing might have been able to turn it back on, but I think when you switch off like that it can be very hard to regain the momentum.

If that had happened, I'd imagine DC would have just done what DC does and Munster would have been pinned into their own corner.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

If that had happened, I'd imagine DC would have just done what DC does and Munster would have been pinned into their own corner.

Maybe, but Racing would have been giving Munster the restart so he'd need to get his hands on the ball first for that to happen. It was a still a long short, sure, but the game was still there up to that point because of how Racing were happy to slip back into 2nd or 3rd gear.

Buer

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Totally agree, but going forward I think 10 is Munsters biggest issue. IRFU will restrict who they can sign, especially since NIQ 10 signed for Connacht

Munster have Bleyendaal, Keatley and JJH all under contract for next season. Unless Bleyendaal retires, there won't be a signing.

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Totally agree, but going forward I think 10 is Munsters biggest issue. IRFU will restrict who they can sign, especially since NIQ 10 signed for Connacht

Yeah, I think Munster with a full strength team next season have the capability of going beyond a semi final.

I don't rate Kilcoyne, Archer or Ryan as being good enough for top European rugby. I know people will disagree with that, but I think you need one top class prop, preferably on the loosehead side.

I think a second row of Klyne and Beirne is top drawer.

A backrow of POM, Cloete, Stander is also top drawer with Cloete giving you that much needed athleticism and speed around the breakdown area.

You've the best 9 in the world and adequate replacements. 10 is probably around the same as the front row in my opinion. A there or there about's international player but not quite at elite European rugby level.

Arnold, Taute, Farrell and Scannel are all quality options to have in mid field and Earls would be a Lions starter on current form. Conway is good enough to play fullback at this level but Wooten and Sweetnam need to show more to their game. They are both decent players with all the attributes but both make poor decisions in defence and don't really add to the team effort at the breakdown in the way Earls and Conway do and even Zebo had managed to develop.

I think with the signings coming in the squad is there if all are fit. I think Blyendaal will do well behind that pack if he is ever fit to play again.

Munster are a bit of depth and 2-3 signings away from having line of site on European silverware imo.

kuang1

Buer wrote: »

Munster have Bleyendaal, Keatley and JJH all under contract for next season. Unless Bleyendaal retires, there won't be a signing.

Yeah this is the reality of it all.
We're not looking at any influx of new talent here for next season. (Don't even know if there's any body out there worth signing!)

Maybe Johnston's resigning being delayed is tied to the uncertainty over Bleyendaal's future.
My gut is that Bleyendaal is broken though and we might never see him play for Munster again.
(Hope for his sake I'm wrong.)

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I think Munster with a full strength team next season have the capability of going beyond a semi final.

I don't rate Kilcoyne, Archer or Ryan as being good enough for top European rugby. I know people will disagree with that, but I think you need one top class prop, preferably on the loosehead side.

I think a second row of Klyne and Beirne is top drawer.

A backrow of POM, Cloete, Stander is also top drawer with Cloete giving you that much needed athleticism and speed around the breakdown area.

You've the best 9 in the world and adequate replacements. 10 is probably around the same as the front row in my opinion. A there or there about's international player but not quite at elite European rugby level.

Arnold, Taute, Farrell and Scannel are all quality options to have in mid field and Earls would be a Lions starter on current form. Conway is good enough to play fullback at this level but Wooten and Sweetnam need to show more to their game. They are both decent players with all the attributes but both make poor decisions in defence and don't really add to the team effort at the breakdown in the way Earls and Conway do and even Zebo had managed to develop.

I think with the signings coming in the squad is there if all are fit. I think Blyendaal will do well behind that pack if he is ever fit to play again.

Munster are a bit of depth and 2-3 signings away from having line of site on European silverware imo.

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Who is Munster ball carrier up front? Stander? He's not a dynamic guy that's going to make the yards you need for a carrier. He's a blindside playing at 8. Killer is the closest thing to that kind of carrier, but his scrummaging is seriously suspect. The way the game is going, forwards need good hands and good feet. How many of that Munster pack have either, let alone both?

Munster lost yesterday because of their pack, albeit one missing a proper openside due to injury. But against top sides, is their full strength pack really going to dominate? And in behind that I wouldn't be fully sold on their centres, certainly not to the level of winning a European trophy. And obviously there's issues at 10, although Keatley was far from the biggest issue Munster had yesterday.

Generally in Europe there are 4 tiers of teams. The first is the poor teams. They won't get out of their pools. The next is the decent teams. They'll struggle to get out of their pools and won't make a SF. Then there's a group of good teams. They can make SFs and can possibly make a final too if they're lucky. But overall they don't have enough top quality to win the big prize. Then there's a small group of teams who are at the top level and are challengers.

For me, Munster are in that third group. And have been for a number of years now. Leinster had been too for a few years until this season, but we're now emerging into the final group.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Murray, Stander, POM, the entire front row were all a lot more below average than Keatley was.

He's such an easy target to wash over where the bulk of the failings actually occurred.

He has little-to-no credit in the bank compared to the other players you mentioned, hence why he's being discussed as much as he is.

If he had been having a similar standard of season up to now that those other players you listed have, then I expect we'd be discussing each equally.

When was the last time Murray under-performed before yesterday for instance?

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Anyone know why the two starting Racing props were subbed back on again in the last couple of minutes? I know Szarzewski had to go off with a wrist or hand injury, but Racing finished with the same front row that started. After it being subbed off around the 50th minute.

Went off for tactical reasons so player can return i assume.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I think Munster with a full strength team next season have the capability of going beyond a semi final.

I don't rate Kilcoyne, Archer or Ryan as being good enough for top European rugby. I know people will disagree with that, but I think you need one top class prop, preferably on the loosehead side.

I think a second row of Klyne and Beirne is top drawer.

A backrow of POM, Cloete, Stander is also top drawer with Cloete giving you that much needed athleticism and speed around the breakdown area.

You've the best 9 in the world and adequate replacements. 10 is probably around the same as the front row in my opinion. A there or there about's international player but not quite at elite European rugby level.

Arnold, Taute, Farrell and Scannel are all quality options to have in mid field and Earls would be a Lions starter on current form. Conway is good enough to play fullback at this level but Wooten and Sweetnam need to show more to their game. They are both decent players with all the attributes but both make poor decisions in defence and don't really add to the team effort at the breakdown in the way Earls and Conway do and even Zebo had managed to develop.

I think with the signings coming in the squad is there if all are fit. I think Blyendaal will do well behind that pack if he is ever fit to play again.

Munster are a bit of depth and 2-3 signings away from having line of site on European silverware imo.

I think loosehead with Kilcoyne and Cronin is fine. It is a bit of depth but not sure front row is the problem

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Who is Munster ball carrier up front? Stander? He's not a dynamic guy that's going to make the yards you need for a carrier. He's a blindside playing at 8. Killer is the closest thing to that kind of carrier, but his scrummaging is seriously suspect. The way the game is going, forwards need good hands and good feet. How many of that Munster pack have either, let alone both?

Munster lost yesterday because of their pack, albeit one missing a proper openside due to injury. But against top sides, is their full strength pack really going to dominate? And in behind that I wouldn't be fully sold on their centres, certainly not to the level of winning a European trophy. And obviously there's issues at 10, although Keatley was far from the biggest issue Munster had yesterday.

Munster had another good ball carrier on the bench in Copeland. But the overriding impression I got was that Munster looked tired before they started. I reckon the hard travel over the previous two weeks had a big part to play in that. Murray was at the most inaccurate I've ever seen him and there were players falling off tackles and soaking massively in the early exchanges. That put the whole defensive line on the back foot and Racing had the power to exploit that.

I also don't think Niall Scannell should have started. Far too long out for a game like that. Rhys Marshall was the better option imo.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Went off for tactical reasons so player can return i assume.

I know they can. The question was why. Seemed a weird decision with a couple of minutes left.

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

They've signed Mike Haley at full back for next season, can't say I know much about him but it's new blood anyway.

Haley from what I have seen is probably another Conway level player so is a good addition. Forgot about him. Munster need an Isa. Hopefully Haley brings that sort of impact

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Munster had another good ball carrier on the bench in Copeland. But the overriding impression I got was that Munster looked tired before they started. I reckon the hard travel over the previous two weeks had a big part to play in that. Murray was at the most inaccurate I've ever seen him and there were players falling off tackles and soaking massively in the early exchanges. That put the whole defensive line on the back foot and Racing had the power to exploit that.

I also don't think Niall Scannell should have started. Far too long out for a game like that. Rhys Marshall was the better option imo.

Marshall made a big difference when he came on.

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't rate Kilcoyne, Archer or Ryan as being good enough for top European rugby. I know people will disagree with that, but I think you need one top class prop, preferably on the loosehead side.

I think a second row of Klyne and Beirne is top drawer.

A backrow of POM, Cloete, Stander is also top drawer with Cloete giving you that much needed athleticism and speed around the breakdown area..

Is Cloete a good ball carrier? Haven't seen enough of him.

Stander had 21 carries for 27m yesterday

POM and JOD had 15 carries between them for 17m.

By comparison Nyanga had 8 carries for 60m.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Generally in Europe there are 4 tiers of teams. The first is the poor teams. They won't get out of their pools. The next is the decent teams. They'll struggle to get out of their pools and won't make a SF. Then there's a group of good teams. They can make SFs and can possibly make a final too if they're lucky. But overall they don't have enough top quality to win the big prize. Then there's a small group of teams who are at the top level and are challengers.

I agree with most of that. The lack of skills with the forwards but also the lack of forwards coming through has been problematic for over half a decade now.

I think Munster are just shy of being in the top tier personally. Despite huge disruption off the field with sadly losing Foley and the mess Erasmus created they've done very well. Home quarter final this year and second seeds last year. Ok the groups were what they were but still, that's a decent showing.

I just think with a fully fit team you've carriers in Cloete, Stander and Klyne, a ball carrying front row who can scrum and has a bit of angry would be perfect.

If Munster can sort out a composed 10 who can stay fit they are right up there imo.

Actually if Munster got their hands on Andrew Porter and Ross Byrne things would be very much looking up.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Is Cloete a good ball carrier? Haven't seen enough of him.

Stander had 21 carries for 27m yesterday

POM and JOD had 15 carries between them for 17m.

By comparison Nyanga had 8 carries for 60m.

Cloete is just explosive. He's very quick and was badly missed yesterday. His speed helps greatly against bigger packs because he gets to the breakdown and under or over the ball before numbers arrive. But his explosiveness would have delivered a score with all that pressure yesterday, Munster were crying out for someone that could make that last foot to put the ball down and Cloete would have delivered that imo.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Cloete is just explosive. He's very quick and was badly missed yesterday. His speed helps greatly against bigger packs because he gets to the breakdown and under or over the ball before numbers arrive. But his explosiveness would have delivered a score with all that pressure yesterday, Munster were crying out for someone that could make that last foot to put the ball down and Cloete would have delivered that imo.

Couldn't agree more. One of Munster's best signings in years.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with most of that. The lack of skills with the forwards but also the lack of forwards coming through has been problematic for over half a decade now.

I think Munster are just shy of being in the top tier personally. Despite huge disruption off the field with sadly losing Foley and the mess Erasmus created they've done very well. Home quarter final this year and second seeds last year. Ok the groups were what they were but still, that's a decent showing.

I just think with a fully fit team you've carriers in Cloete, Stander and Klyne, a ball carrying front row who can scrum and has a bit of angry would be perfect.

If Munster can sort out a composed 10 who can stay fit they are right up there imo.

Actually if Munster got their hands on Andrew Porter and Ross Byrne things would be very much looking up.

Cronin has plenty of dog in him. Good scrummager too. Ball carrying ala Kilcoyne not so much.

baas baa

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just think with a fully fit team you've carriers in Cloete, Stander and Klyne, a ball carrying front row who can scrum and has a bit of angry would be perfect.

If Munster can sort out a composed 10 who can stay fit they are right up there imo.

Actually if Munster got their hands on Andrew Porter and Ross Byrne things would be very much looking up.

So the 3 South African lads are good and if they were bolstered with a few more Leinstermen Munster would have a proper side :-)