City just crazy

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

The thing at Monroes is a speed ramp not a pedestrian crossing

Galway City Council call them "Courtesy Crossings" - why its not the well known "Zebra Crossing" is beyond my comprehension.

John_Rambo

Gracelynn Whining Rainbow wrote: »

The city centre should have as little office space as possible its much better to build it outside the cities making commuting to work much easier and having businesses closer to and more accessible for people living rurally and in small towns/villages etc. Places like where the apple data centre was to be built could not be more ideal. Big site, lots for space for parking, plenty of space for building new roads to/from the site, no traffic issues, very close to the motorway meaning large areas of the country and beyond are within easy and hassle free commuting distance etc etc.

City centre should be for shopping, pubs, restaurants and other entertainment. The whole discussion is about getting traffic out of the city, creating the jobs outside the city is the way to go about this. Couple this with a bypass and the city centre will be relieved of lots of work going traffic leaving more space for those who do work in the city or come into the city for pleasure.

Its also not impossible its actually fairly common particularly for bigger MNC who need large premisses for manufacturing, R&D etc.

Fair enough for the manufacturing sites, they're suited for out of city premises because of the size of the plants. But you're plan to reduce office space in Galway would be an unmitigated disaster for the city.

You'd be giving the finger to big companies and MNC's that go for cities and all that goes with them, the ancillary businesses, the solicitors, accountancy firms, deli's, pubs, restaurants, caterers, builders, architects, contractors, cleaners etc...

Dublin is at peak now. There's no more room and the country is looking West for a counter balance. Cork, Limerick, Galway are good candidate cities.

The people that work for these companies won't work outside cities in agricultural areas. They don't want to commute by car, they want public transport, they want to socialise after work, they want to be close to the gym, the nail bar, the sushi restaurant, the burrito bar, the gastro pub, the Vietnamese restaurant, Dough brothers pizza, Curley's food shop, the school, the creche, the playground, they'll want cycle infrastructure, they want to walk on the quays, wake in the water or canoe in the river after work.

I know you have no interest in such activities and you have difficulty grasping that people do or even believing that they exist.

But they do. Look at Google and Facebook in Dublin. There's a reason they pay top dollar to set up in the city instead of an agricultural area. They want the best for their employees, they want them to stay.

Galway is perfect for these AMC's. It's already part pedestrianised with a vibrant street and arts culture, a cracking atmosphere with an amazing social scene. And this has nothing to do with cars. It's because of people. The less car infrastructure and the more people infrastructure the better it will become.

Banning this type of enterprise in the city in preference to single occupancy drivers is ludicrous, stupid and small minded. It really is 1970's MidWest American, Walmart thinking as another poster pointed out. It destroys cities. Backward thinking at it's best.

Nonsense of the highest order.

gordongekko

what_traffic wrote: »

Galway City Council call them "Courtesy Crossings" - why its not the well known "Zebra Crossing" is beyond my comprehension.

Because they are not Zebra crossings. Pedestrians dont have the right of way at the speed ramp at Monroes

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

Because they are not Zebra crossings. Pedestrians dont have the right of way at the speed ramp at Monroes

Aint a Speed Ramp. In official City Council correspondence they refer to them as "Courtesy Crossings"

See the flawed "Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets from 2013"
See page 89
"Courtesy Crossings"
Pic of one in Westport

John_Rambo

what_traffic wrote: »

Aint a Speed Ramp. In official City Council correspondence they refer to them as "Courtesy Crossings"

See the flawed "Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets from 2013"
See page 89
"Courtesy Crossings"
Pic of one in Westport

That's very interesting, thanks for that info. I've one on my road that leads from a small park to a big park. We actually treat it as a zebra crossing (even though it isn't). It realistically should be.

McGiver

Gracelynn Whining Rainbow wrote: »

The city centre should have as little office space as possible its much better to build it outside the cities making commuting to work much easier and having businesses closer to and more accessible for people living rurally and in small towns/villages etc. Places like where the apple data centre was to be built could not be more ideal. Big site, lots for space for parking, plenty of space for building new roads to/from the site, no traffic issues, very close to the motorway meaning large areas of the country and beyond are within easy and hassle free commuting distance etc etc.

City centre should be for shopping, pubs, restaurants and other entertainment. The whole discussion is about getting traffic out of the city, creating the jobs outside the city is the way to go about this. Couple this with a bypass and the city centre will be relieved of lots of work going traffic leaving more space for those who do work in the city or come into the city for pleasure.

Its also not impossible its actually fairly common particularly for bigger MNC who need large premisses for manufacturing, R&D etc.

I'm talking office workers essentially, not factories. These don't need particularly large premises.

I don't know, I don't want to work in some industrial park with no amusement and no amenities, somewhere on the periphery. It's not pretty, it's not pleasurable, it's not convenient.

You'll find that modern cities are not just suited for entertainment as you say, but also for work, living and pleasure. Or should city just be one big pub where no one lives, works or simply just enjoys it?

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

You know you have "CAR issues" when you start blaming traffic lights instead of all the "other" CARS on the road at the exact same time as you.
Perhaps some billboards around town with picture of single car occupant stuck in the CAR traffic with the the slogan "I am the CAR traffic" might change the mindset.

Cars are the most horribly inefficent method of moving people in built up urban areas.

You know when you have CAR issues when you have to type CAR in BLOCK CAPITALS.

All the cities that have successfully pedestrianised their cities provide an alternative usually called a by pass. Galway hasn't. It's quicker to drive though the town centre than use the ring road.

I am about to drive from Barna to Maree. How should I do this without driving a single occupancy vehicle through the city ?

Mrs OBumble

benjamin d wrote: »

I've travelled plenty thank you very much.

Its nothing to do with how other cities have done this. It's the fact that the days of the private car ruling all are over. Cities are for living, working, and being in. They are not for driving a single occupant car around in. It's utterly unsustainable and short of banning cars the only way to change that is to make city streets at best irritating and at worst severely bloody difficult to drive around. The day will come that the majority of inner city streets are fully pedestrianised. The reign of the car is coming to an end and cities can soon be reclaimed by those who should rightfully have never given them up.

I dunno if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or what.

If pedestrians had a free-flow between Fishmarket Plaza and Spanish Arch, at busy times this would pretty much put a stop to the Salthill bus service as well as every other vehicle: they simply would not be able to move because there would always be someone stepping onto the road.

(Small scale simulation: When my brother was a kid on the way to school with his mates, for the craic they all got off the bus together, and then lined up and stepped onto a pedestrian crossing one at a time every few seconds - between them they could stop traffic for about five minutes. Eventually the council had to put pedestrian lights in.)


There's really no such thing as fully pedestrianised:

Cities are safer when they have people living in them - and Galway does really well on this front already. Mostly these people can walk places. But sometimes need they vehicle access to very close to their houses: delivering stuff, moving house, taking equipment on holiday, getting around while ill / injured / infirm, ambulances, health and home-care workers, hearses, etc.

Businesses in cities need deliveries. I know there are romantic notions of the last mile being done by bicycle-wagon or similar. But think about the sheet number of kegs going in to a place like the Kings Head: there is no way that can be done in a reasonable timeframe with anything except a decent-sized truck. A reasonable timeframe includes allowing time for the street-cleaners (again, small vehicles) to fix up after yesterday, and being finished before there are too many pedestrians around - realistically the window for this is maybe 7-10am (on Shop St currently the window is until 10:30AM, and really that's too late, there are a lot of pedestrians around by 10am).

Emergency services and law enforcement also need access - sometimes very rapidly, to streets by vehicle. A person having a heart attack in Shop St can't to walk to the edge of the pedestrian zone to meet an ambulance: the vehicle and its equipment needs to get to where s/he is.

Cities are intrinsically mixed-use spaces. Talk of banning any one type of use is myopic, and ignores the needs all other users of the space. Even talk of banning single-occupancy vehicles (cars, bicycles, whatever ) is mad in a world where the number of single-person households is growing.

Discodog

In Oxford the buses travel through the pedestrianised part of the city. They solved the city traffic problem over 30 years ago with park & ride . But they also built a by pass.

xckjoo

gordongekko wrote: »

The thing at Monroes is a speed ramp not a pedestrian crossing

Did you really think that was only a speed ramp? :eek:
what_traffic has a proper description of what it is in his replies. It's supposed to be part of the "shared space" type redesign of the city layout.
Side-question: Have Zebra Crossings been done away with? I can't think of any left in the city off the top of my head.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I dunno if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or what.

If pedestrians had a free-flow between Fishmarket Plaza and Spanish Arch, at busy times this would pretty much put a stop to the Salthill bus service as well as every other vehicle: they simply would not be able to move because there would always be someone stepping onto the road.

(Small scale simulation: When my brother was a kid on the way to school with his mates, for the craic they all got off the bus together, and then lined up and stepped onto a pedestrian crossing one at a time every few seconds - between them they could stop traffic for about five minutes. Eventually the council had to put pedestrian lights in.)


There's really no such thing as fully pedestrianised:

Cities are safer when they have people living in them - and Galway does really well on this front already. Mostly these people can walk places. But sometimes need they vehicle access to very close to their houses: delivering stuff, moving house, taking equipment on holiday, getting around while ill / injured / infirm, ambulances, health and home-care workers, hearses, etc.

Businesses in cities need deliveries. I know there are romantic notions of the last mile being done by bicycle-wagon or similar. But think about the sheet number of kegs going in to a place like the Kings Head: there is no way that can be done in a reasonable timeframe with anything except a decent-sized truck. A reasonable timeframe includes allowing time for the street-cleaners (again, small vehicles) to fix up after yesterday, and being finished before there are too many pedestrians around - realistically the window for this is maybe 7-10am (on Shop St currently the window is until 10:30AM, and really that's too late, there are a lot of pedestrians around by 10am).

Emergency services and law enforcement also need access - sometimes very rapidly, to streets by vehicle. A person having a heart attack in Shop St can't to walk to the edge of the pedestrian zone to meet an ambulance: the vehicle and its equipment needs to get to where s/he is.

Cities are intrinsically mixed-use spaces. Talk of banning any one type of use is myopic, and ignores the needs all other users of the space. Even talk of banning single-occupancy vehicles (cars, bicycles, whatever ) is mad in a world where the number of single-person households is growing.

I think you're the one misunderstanding here Bumble. You make it sound like we're talking about walling in the city again and not allowing anything through that isn't on two legs. I deliberately mentioned the raised walkway thingy beside Monroes as it's supposed to encourage a more natural give-and-take of movement between cars and pedestrians. Your "small-scale simulation" doesn't work as you're describing a situation where people queue and cross one-by-one. That's a completely unnatural way of walking. People don't form orderly queues while walking, they mill around the place. Cars and people can share the same space if a car is going slow enough. People will naturally move around the car.
Private access should always be allowed. This is common in most major cities around Europe (that I've seen) so to ban it would be more abnormal than anything. Deliveries, moving vehicles, residents cars, etc. would all have access, but not the thousands of other people that don't need a vehicle there for anything other than laziness. Not sure what your point about deliveries for businesses is. You outlined how it's working for Shop Street already. This is again common in any city with pedestrian areas. I don't see why smaller vehicles (car/small van) couldn't be given limit daytime access if it's essential too. There's access barriers at pedestrian areas for these kinds of reasons. Street cleaners can operate during pedestrian-only times too. They do already.
Emergency services would obviously have access. Again, look at Shop Street. Ambulances regularly have to drive up there already. I'm open to correction, but I don't think anyone has had to "walk to the edge of the pedestrian zone to meet an ambulance" in the couple of decades since pedestrianisation occurred. People just move out of the way of the ambulance/cop car/fire engine if they see it coming, and you can get 100 pedestrians out of the way a lot faster and easier than 100 cars.
There seems to be a belief among a lot of people that cars have some intrinsic right to all the road and transport infrastructure and should be allowed travel as fast as physically possible at all times. I'm just talking about returning to a world where we're not hemmed in like livestock so we don't get in the way of the car. It wasn't even that long ago... https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

benjamin d

People are determined to conflate getting rid of private cars with meaning movement of delivery services, worker's vehices and public transport will disintegrate as well. The more we make it difficult for private cars to move around the city the easier it gets for essential vehicles to get in and out. As it stands currently the bus around by Spanish Arch is held up by hundreds of cars in slow moving traffic from hundreds of metres back. Get rid of those cars and even stopping for pedestrians ten times in the 50m stretch to the bridge will be many multiples of times quicker than the current situation, not to mention safer and more pleasant for everyone. As said above, many cities have buses going through pedestrian areas. To do that properly here we need to not only get rid of private cars but stop pandering to taxis too, but that's a whole other can of worms!

zell12

We'll still be talking about this in twenty years time

John_Rambo

Vehicular deliveries are made and in pedestrianised areas every day in the likes of Temple bar and Shop street.

Emergency vehicles have access to pedestrianised areas 24 hours a day and make it to victims quicker than they would in snarled up traffic.

Business owners and locals have vehicular access in pedestrianised areas. How do you think they get furniture etc… in to their houses?

benjamin d

zell12 wrote: »

We'll still be talking about this in twenty years time

The truest post in this thread unfortunately

xckjoo

zell12 wrote: »

We'll still be talking about this in twenty years time

Except it'll be the sky bypass for our flying cars, and pedestrian access for our robots

Nobody is talking about banning anything so please stop with the Daily Mail type alarmist posts.

The current situation is one of saturation. The roads simply do not have capacity for more vehicles.

So, how do you transport more people?

Simple, use more efficient methods and dissuade the use of lower efficiency methods.

I've said from the beginning, if you have a private car and you NEED to drive into the city centre, you should be able to, however it should be the bottom of your list in terms of transport options with several other options being more appealing

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

You know when you have CAR issues when you have to type CAR in BLOCK CAPITALS.
.
..
I am about to drive from Barna to Maree. How should I do this without driving a single occupancy vehicle through the city ?

I don't, because I very rarely use the car.

For your trip to Maree - just do it, and say on repeat while you are travelling in your car
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
until you arrive at your destination. Anytime I use the car and get stuck in the CAR traffic - that is what I say to myself.

what_traffic

xckjoo wrote: »

Side-question: Have Zebra Crossings been done away with? I can't think of any left in the city off the top of my head.

For a while the one in Shantalla and Cross Street were the sole Zebra crossing in the City but there has been a roll out of a fair few of them along some of the arms of the roundabouts along the WDR (Western Distributor Road), the past year or so.
City Centre should have far more of them - but the Galway City Council Road Engineers main priority is the movement of cars rather than people.

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

I don't, because I very rarely use the car.

For your trip to Maree - just do it, and say on repeat while you are travelling in your car
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
until you arrive at your destination. Anytime I use the car and get stuck in the CAR traffic - that is what I say to myself.

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money.

I wouldn't be sad enough to repeat such a stupid mantra. I am not the car traffic. I am someone providing a service to a client - who incidentally pays extra to cover my additional costs. If some here have their way he will have to move or find someone else & the cost will go up a lot.

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money.

It sure is, the more I use a car the more it costs me. So thats why I use it as infrequently as possible.

zell12

what_traffic wrote: »

I don't, because I very rarely use the car. For your trip to Maree - just do it, and say on repeat while you are travelling in your car
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
"I am the CAR traffic"
until you arrive at your destination. Anytime I use the car and get stuck in the CAR traffic - that is what I say to myself.

You need to create a riff and a catchy tune.
I suggest the busking session at the Sparch tomorrow. I suggest a hum like so

McGiver

Discodog wrote: »

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money.

The thing is that in urban Europe, let's narrow it down to the EU, car is a considered a luxury item. You typically don't really need to own it in urban environment, because public transport is accessible etc. Look at Copenhagen (smaller than Dublin) for example.

Rural environment - yeah sure, different scenario.

Discodog

McGiver wrote: »

The thing is that in urban Europe, let's narrow it down to the EU, car is a considered a luxury item. You typically don't really need to own it in urban environment, because public transport is accessible etc. Look at Copenhagen (smaller than Dublin) for example.

Rural environment - yeah sure, different scenario.

A client of mine bought a house in Galway town centre. They weren't even going to make provision for a car. They soon changed their minds.

I wonder....

Once the bridge gets built (It’s. Getting. Built. End of story. or start the anti-bridge movement. Your choice.) would a general Inflow-outflow pattern be an idea to persue?
Some ideas I’ve had. Not going to stand over them, they’re more brainstorm proposals. Some are dependent on other ideas to function properly, some can stand on their own.
1- Get the inbound through traffic off the Old Dublin Road. Do this by getting city traffic to turn North at the GMIT roundabout, make the ODR Local traffic only, and force any remaining traffic to slalom through Renmore, turning left at the old Dawn Dairies & back onto the road at Duggan’s. Make that route infeasible for anyone bar Renmore local traffic. Upgrade roads on route to handle the traffic.
2. Separate traffic at Huntsman Cross so Monivea Road can only turn right up the hill, and Dublin Road traffic can only turn down Lough Atalia. The two traffic streams do not meet. (G retail complex gets told to get its sh*t together to stop people slaloming through)
3. Make Joyce Roundabout an under/overpass. Many routes climb hills to enter that **** of a roundabout, maybe if we dig down in some of them & have them pass underneath other roads that pass there, it would force people to take routes northward of it.
4. A second bridge at Galway Cathederal, north of the current one, and make each bridge one way. Space enough for it.
5. Close off the Tuam Road at the corner near Lohan’s Pharmacy, everything North of that is residential, no need for any traffic to traverse it. Close off road from Headford Road up the hill to Saint Bridget’s Place & Tuam Road.
6. Headford Road becomes the primary access route for Galway City Centre.
7 CPO & knock those houses between Dyke Road junction & the Council Car park entrance. After you close off the Tuam Road, that route becomes a primary route into the city & to one of the major Car parks we’re trying to encourage people to use. as opposed to trying to park in front of their destination.

All the above is done for private traffic. Busses & public transport would be accommodated as needed.

jjpep

Discodog wrote: »

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money

For me the car is just for longer journeys outside of the city or when we need to transport something that we can't take on the bikes. For our situation using the car every day would be the false economy, not thinking because we're paying to have one that we need to use it as often as possible to get value from it.

Our situation. We live westside of the city. I commute 10kms to park more on bike. She commutes to city center on bike. Kid goes to school on bike. En route for both of us so take turns accompanying.

Edit reason = our situation.

zell12

The cost of running an average car is now €10,671 a year
https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/0808/895989-what-it-costs-to-run-your-car-for-a-year/

McGiver

jjpep wrote: »

Discodog wrote: »

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money

For me the car is just for longer journeys outside of the city or when we need to transport something that we can't take on the bikes. For our situation using the car every day would be the false economy, not thinking because we're paying to have one that we need to use it as often as possible to get value from it.

Our situation. We live westside of the city. I commute 10kms to park more on bike. She commutes to city center on bike. Kid goes to school on bike. En route for both of us so take turns accompanying.

Edit reason = our situation.

That's exactly a kind of car usage you would find in urban Western and Central Europe.

In Galway it's much harder but still possible.

Mrs OBumble

Discodog wrote: »

So you pay thousands in purchase price, depreciation, taxes, running costs etc & hardly ever use it ? Must be nice to have so much money.

Personally, I just rent an individuated vehicle (car, van, bicycle, whatever) when I need it. And sometimes - I do need it. So does everyone else.

But I don't feel a need to chant mantras, so matter whether I'm in an individuated vehicle or a shared one (bus, train, plane, whatever). Traffic and delays are simple part of life in an urban environment. Sometimes I just have to wait for other people.

J.pilkington

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But I don't feel a need to chant mantras

I think some posters on the Galway city forum would disagree