City just crazy

Your Face

Your Face wrote: »

I will.
It doesn't need to link all the islands and cross all the inlets on the west coast, that's not needed.
Just one tunnel with 6 lanes spanning the distance approximately from Oranmore to above Barna.
It's a big project but I don't think that we need to be an oil and gas exporting nation to fund it.

That is about twice the size of the Dublin port tunnel so 2 billion in cost if tunnelling under land. If going under water like say under the Shannon that jumps to 5 billion.

We could do a lot with that like build an entire new town on the east side to accommodate those workers with integrated and funded walking, cycling and public transport infrastructure.

zulutango

Your Face wrote: »

That was my original point - The lack of any imagination to even consider a large scale engineering project.

I think it's less to do with lack of imagination and more to do with a lack of ability to print money.

Your Face

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is about twice the size of the Dublin port tunnel so 2 billion in cost if tunnelling under land. If going under water like say under the Shannon that jumps to 5 billion.

We could do a lot with that like build an entire new town on the east side to accommodate those workers with integrated and funded walking, cycling and public transport infrastructure.

To be fair, that's some sloppy costings.

The Dublin Port tunnel was attacked from all sides, yet still it went ahead. It's invaluable to Dublin now.

I think also, the notion to build a new town will create the exact same problems we have now.

Your Face

zulutango wrote: »

I think it's less to do with lack of imagination and more to do with a lack of ability to print money.

No, it's lack of imagination and the acceptance of the same.

Your Face

Your Face wrote: »

To be fair, that's some sloppy costings.

The Dublin Port tunnel was attacked from all sides, yet still it went ahead. It's invaluable to Dublin now.

I think also, the notion to build a new town will create the exact same problems we have now.

The port tunnel is indeed invaluable and as a connection to the main port for an island of six million people it is a vital piece of national infrastructure.

My references for costs: Jack Lynch Tunnel £105m twenty years ago - 600 meters, under water, Shannon Tunnel a bit longer 675 meters €660m in 2010, Dublin port tunnel was much cheaper at €750m for 4.5km as it was underground rather than underwater. Oranmore to Barna is about 10km by sea so I was underestimating the cost - it is 15 times longer than the Shannon Tunnel so approximately 10 billion.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

The port tunnel is indeed invaluable and as a connection to the main port for an island of six million people it is a vital piece of national infrastructure.

My references for costs: Jack Lynch Tunnel £105m twenty years ago - 600 meters, under water, Shannon Tunnel a bit longer 675 meters €660m in 2010, Dublin port tunnel was much cheaper at €750m for 4.5km as it was underground rather than underwater. Oranmore to Barna is about 10km by sea so I was underestimating the cost - it is 15 times longer than the Shannon Tunnel so approximately 10 billion.

I remember watching a rock breaker in Pier Road Barna get through six "bits," at several thousand each, just to break one piece of granite - imagine trying to tunnel through it.

flazio

I presume none of you know what type of soil and rock is under Galway compared to what is under Dublin, the Shannon or the Lee.
Well neither do I but we can't just assume tunneling under the city will be as straightforward as all the other tunnel projects.

joebloggs32

flazio wrote: »

I presume none of you know what type of soil and rock is under Galway compared to what is under Dublin, the Shannon or the Lee.
Well neither do I but we can't just assume tunneling under the city will be as straightforward as all the other tunnel projects.

Galway eould be predominately limestone rock until you reach near Bearna according to the maps on the Geological survey of Irealnd, while dublin has limestone bedrock

As said above Dublin was limestone and clay.
Limericks was different requiring the estuary to be dredged of mud, foundations to be laid underwater and precast sections to be floated out and sank into position.

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

City infrastructure is massively used, DART and LUAS are at capacity now and pay for themselves, they’re the busiest trains in the country. Unlike rural and motorway profits that are subsidised a LOT more per rata.

Staying on topic, Galway deserves a light rail system, the car needs to be pushed out of the city. I can see this happening in the next ten years.

Light rail would be of very limited benefit to a small number of people living along the line. Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city would be of massive benefit to the city and of even more benefit to the thousands of people commuting in from around the county. This is what Galway needs not a Gluas.

Topgear on Dave

Gracelynn Whining Rainbow wrote: »

Light rail would be of very limited benefit to a small number of people living along the line. Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city would be of massive benefit to the city and of even more benefit to the thousands of people commuting in from around the county. This is what Galway needs not a Gluas.

Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city has not really solved the problem for Dublin.

Its just created more and more traffic.

McGiver

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Vs L and G which have a motorway between them that emply most of the time. ]Yeah, no infrastructure.

I talk about infrastructure within the cities' perimeter. Not about motorway connecting them with D. I thought that was obvious...

McGiver

Duncan Most Chrome wrote:

Light rail would be of very limited benefit to a small number of people living along the line. Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city would be of massive benefit to the city and of even more benefit to the thousands of people commuting in from around the county. This is what Galway needs not a Gluas.

Actually, I did speak about this with many people including civil engineers, the overall consensus is that Galway doesn't have sufficient population density to support it at the moment. However, if Galway is supposed to grow as predicted then it may make more sense to actually build the light rail first and them grow Galway and increase population density along the light rail.

No bypass will solve the current traffic problem if Galway grows as predicted by low density suburban sprawl instead of by higher density urban development. The problem will just stay and grow along with the growth of the city.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As said above Dublin was limestone and clay.
Limericks was different requiring the estuary to be dredged of mud, foundations to be laid underwater and precast sections to be floated out and sank into position.

This just reminded me of a lad who wanted to drain Lough Atalia and he had a lorry of stone to fill it in. Can't remember why but it was something to do with reducing traffic.

zell12

Lough Atalia 100 acres of untapped amenity
Think of all the semi-d's we could put there!

Or divert the Corrib outflow west to Leenane or east to Lough Ree and concrete over the Corrib river and turn it into a car park :pac:

ronnie3585

zell12 wrote: »

Or divert the Corrib outflow west to Leenane or east to Lough Ree and concrete over the Corrib river and turn it into a car park :pac:

Surely a cycle lane, no?

what_traffic

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Surely a cycle lane, no?

No it was a big US Mall style surface CAR park that was proposed, drain Lough Atalia to convert into a Car Park. Cycle lane is 2m -4m(two way) wide; ya can put that in right now around Lough Atalia with minimum fuss.

what_traffic

Your Face wrote: »

I will.
It doesn't need to link all the islands and cross all the inlets on the west coast, that's not needed.
Just one tunnel with 6 lanes spanning the distance approximately from Oranmore to above Barna.
It's a big project but I don't think that we need to be an oil and gas exporting nation to fund it.

What is the population beyond Barna? More importantly what percentage of them want to goto Oranmore and beyond and vice versa?:D

McGiver

what_traffic wrote:

What is the population beyond Barna? More importantly what percentage of them want to goto Oranmore and beyond and vice versa?

There is the village of Spiddal and then essentially a wasteland with population density approx 30 people /sq km (maybe less)

what_traffic

McGiver wrote: »

There is the village of Spiddal and then essentially a wasteland with population density approx 30 people /sq km (maybe less)

I presume you mean a wasteland in terms of "population density".

John_Rambo

Gracelynn Whining Rainbow wrote: »

Light rail would be of very limited benefit to a small number of people living along the line

You're not thinking laterally.

Light rail benefits movement within and in and out of the city for everyone. Thousands of people using it means thousands of cars absent from the roads easing snarl ups for tradesmen, local and essential vehicular usage. Aside from that, people drive short distances to outlying stations to avail of the light rail system in to the city further freeing up the roads for cyclists, pedestrians, buses, pooling and essential maintenance vehicular traffic.

It works in Dublin and it works in hundreds of other cities throughout Europe and the world.

We need a counterbalance for Dublin which is creaking with accommodation problems. With creative infrastructure planning there's no reason why Galway can't be that counterbalance that can attract large multinational companies like Google and Facebook. These type of companies don't want staff sitting in cars for hours every day, they attract staff that use decent public transport links.

I have a good few non-national friends that work in these companies in Dublin, some are on monster wages, some are on entry level saleries, but none of them would dream of driving in and out of work. They cycle or use light rail and bus.

That speed video of Galway traffic by the cyclist is nuts. Thousands of single occupant car drivers sitting at a standstill or creeping along at 10kph is just insane.

McGiver

what_traffic wrote:

I presume you mean a wasteland in terms of "population density".

Correct. No population.

McGiver

John_Rambo wrote:

We need a counterbalance for Dublin which is creaking with accommodation problems. With creative infrastructure planning there's no reason why Galway can't be that counterbalance that can attract large multinational companies like Google and Facebook. These type of companies don't want staff sitting in cars for hours every day, they attract staff that use decent public transport links.

Absolutely. But how? Cork and Limerick are way ahead. More competent councils with actual development plans and development going on the ground. Secondly, Galway is mostly very narrowly specialised in medical device industry and tourism. Limerick and Cork have broader range of industries. And finally, absence of an international airport is minus point for FDI into Galway. (if you are deciding between Cork, Limerick and Galway). So I'd say Galway's appeal is lower than D, C and LK.

yer man!

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Gracelynn Whining Rainbow wrote: »

Light rail would be of very limited benefit to a small number of people living along the line. Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city would be of massive benefit to the city and of even more benefit to  the thousands of people commuting in from around the county. This is what Galway needs not a Gluas.

Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city has not really solved the problem for Dublin.

Its just created more and more traffic.

It is true that the M50 has created more and more traffic in Dublin but my god it's nothing compared to the mess that is Galway. I moved here over a year and a half ago from Galway and I can tell you in all that time I have never been in worse traffic than that city. Dublin can have mental traffic but at least you make reasonable progress. In the short term I think the best thing for Galway would be protected good quality bike lanes. In Dublin over 100,000 people commute by bicycle every day in and around the city, that is a massive number.

Mrs OBumble

McGiver wrote: »

I don't know, at least Eyre Sq, Eglinton St and Eyre St?

Several people have made suggestions about banning all cars from the city-centre. Following big concrete words like "ban" with an "I don't know" seems a bit like you've not though about what problem is to be solved with a ban. Neither have you considered the consequences of the inner-city becoming unlivable - which is more people needing to commute into the city in working hours on or in wheely-things that needs parking space, instead of being able to walk to work.

Shop St is pedestrianised. Does that make it nicer to live in, in an Irish city? Hell no - buskers, drumming circles, roaring drunks, un-toilet-trained **holes, people running away from the guards at 3am, kicking over rubbish-bags, breaking windows,... etc ... most of the residents are gone from that street now.

Personally I think that the medieval streets play very little role in the traffic situation - except during the Christmas shopping period (which was calmer last year than previously: more people shopping on-line, ie demand-management). The only exception is Eglington St and its effect on buses: removing on-street parking during peak hours would ease things there.)


To make a difference, we need to get less traffic on the main roads to/from the broader area, not fiddle around with the tiny streets in the middle.

McGiver

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Several people have made suggestions about banning all cars from the city-centre. Following big concrete words like "ban" with an "I don't know" seems a bit like you've not though about what problem is to be solved with a ban. Neither have you considered the consequences of the inner-city becoming unlivable - which is more people needing to commute into the city in working hours on or in wheely-things that needs parking space, instead of being able to walk to work.

No, I didn't, I'm not a civil engineer, traffic expert, but just a laity.

And again, I can recommend a couple of journeys to continental Europe or even just to England to see how its done in other cities and how it works. Their inner cities are nothing but livable, so I'm not sure why Galway wouldn't be.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Shop St is pedestrianised. Does that make it nicer to live in, in an Irish city? Hell no - buskers, drumming circles, roaring drunks, un-toilet-trained **holes, people running away from the guards at 3am, kicking over rubbish-bags, breaking windows,... etc ... most of the residents are gone from that street now.

If there is an issue with busking then it needs to be regulated. If there is a crime or antisocial behaviour, police need to enforce order. This is a completely different issue.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Personally I think that the medieval streets play very little role in the traffic situation - except during the Christmas shopping period (which was calmer last year than previously: more people shopping on-line, ie demand-management). The only exception is Eglington St and its effect on buses: removing on-street parking during peak hours would ease things there.)

I don't know. I have no evidence, neither you have any.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

To make a difference, we need to get less traffic on the main roads to/from the broader area, not fiddle around with the tiny streets in the middle.

Yes, less traffic but also make the city livable. City full of cars isn't livable. Making streets pedestrianised or removing private transport from the streets is part of the solution.

You seem to think that methods which proved effective in many cities in Europe somehow won't work in Galway.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

No it was a big US Mall style surface CAR park that was proposed, drain Lough Atalia to convert into a Car Park. Cycle lane is 2m -4m(two way) wide; ya can put that in right now around Lough Atalia with minimum fuss.

That’s what i’d love to see. Coupled with reclaiming some Dublin Road frontage from businesses & parks from the front of Eye cinema up to GMIT to put in a proper bike lane.

Thargor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

To make a difference, we need to get less traffic on the main roads to/from the broader area, not fiddle around with the tiny streets in the middle.

Didn't you previously say that Eyre Square to the IMC was too far to walk and you needed to be driven there?

Discodog

John_Rambo wrote: »

You're not thinking laterally.

Light rail benefits movement within and in and out of the city for everyone. Thousands of people using it means thousands of cars absent from the roads easing snarl ups for tradesmen, local and essential vehicular usage. Aside from that, people drive short distances to outlying stations to avail of the light rail system in to the city further freeing up the roads for cyclists, pedestrians, buses, pooling and essential maintenance vehicular traffic.

It works in Dublin and it works in hundreds of other cities throughout Europe and the world.

We need a counterbalance for Dublin which is creaking with accommodation problems. With creative infrastructure planning there's no reason why Galway can't be that counterbalance that can attract large multinational companies like Google and Facebook. These type of companies don't want staff sitting in cars for hours every day, they attract staff that use decent public transport links.

I have a good few non-national friends that work in these companies in Dublin, some are on monster wages, some are on entry level saleries, but none of them would dream of driving in and out of work. They cycle or use light rail and bus.

That speed video of Galway traffic by the cyclist is nuts. Thousands of single occupant car drivers sitting at a standstill or creeping along at 10kph is just insane.

Doesn't always work. Helsinki have recently opened a big extension to their Metro & cut "unnecessary" buses. Many are calling it a huge waste of money as lots of journeys now take twice as long - bus to the Metro station & then the metro journey rather than one bus all the way. There is a limit as to how far people will walk.

Discodog

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Building the bypass with multiple entry/exit points around the city has not really solved the problem for Dublin.

Its just created more and more traffic.

Are there Park & Ride carparks around the ring ? Build a ring road around Galway. Have at least four Park & Ride carparks with free parking. Make all town centre parking really expensive. Charge employees a fortune for work parking.

The Council visited Oxford. They saw how well it works so just copy it.