City just crazy

John_Rambo

Discodog wrote: »

Doesn't always work. Helsinki have recently opened a big extension to their Metro & cut "unnecessary" buses. Many are calling it a huge waste of money as lots of journeys now take twice as long - bus to the Metro station & then the metro journey rather than one bus all the way. There is a limit as to how far people will walk.

Helsinki's metro seems to be a success by all accounts. Certainly better than thousands of single occupant cars stopped dead in traffic.

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

Are there Park & Ride carparks around the ring ? Build a ring road around Galway. Have at least four Park & Ride carparks with free parking. Make all town centre parking really expensive. Charge employees a fortune for work parking.

The Council visited Oxford. They saw how well it works so just copy it.

Its a very good question.
The answer is NO.
If there had been such a proposal included with the RING road, would be far easier sell as a CAR traffic solution. Essentially RING road is just to open up more land for Development. Copy and paste what the M50 did for Dublin. That is the model that is been followed.

AndrewJRenko

Discodog wrote: »

Are there Park & Ride carparks around the ring ? Build a ring road around Galway. Have at least four Park & Ride carparks with free parking. Make all town centre parking really expensive. Charge employees a fortune for work parking.

Free parking means that everyone pays for the parking facility, including those who don't drive and don't use the facility. It would be paid from general taxation, paid by cyclists, paid by bus users, and paid by motorists. It is providing public space for storage of private property.

Discodog

John_Rambo wrote: »

Helsinki's metro seems to be a success by all accounts. Certainly better than thousands of single occupant cars stopped dead in traffic.

All accounts ? You mean the official ones ? My account is direct from an Espoo resident who uses it daily. It was years late & heavily over budget. And she still drives into Helsinki whenever the car is available.

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Free parking means that everyone pays for the parking facility, including those who don't drive and don't use the facility. It would be paid from general taxation, paid by cyclists, paid by bus users, and paid by motorists. It is providing public space for storage of private property.

Yes but it works & everyone benefits. If people have to pay for parking & the bus, it makes it more beneficial to drive into town. You provide carrots not sticks.

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

Its a very good question.
The answer is NO.
If there had been such a proposal included with the RING road, would be far easier sell as a CAR traffic solution. Essentially RING road is just to open up more land for Development. Copy and paste what the M50 did for Dublin. That is the model that is been followed.

Your totally unnecessary use of capitals totally removes any logic in the post.

Of course you encourage development along the ring - then people don't have to enter the city.

People need to stop fighting a bike good, car bad, war & plan for everyone.

AndrewJRenko

Discodog wrote: »

Yes but it works & everyone benefits. If people have to pay for parking & the bus, it makes it more beneficial to drive into town. You provide carrots not sticks.

So let's put the funding in making public transport free, instead of providing public storage space for private property.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/german-cities-to-trial-free-public-transport-to-cut-pollution

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So let's put the funding in making public transport free, instead of providing public storage space for private property.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/german-cities-to-trial-free-public-transport-to-cut-pollution

The cost of free parking is a fraction of the cost of free public transport for the whole city. It's a non starter.

kippy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Free parking means that everyone pays for the parking facility, including those who don't drive and don't use the facility. It would be paid from general taxation, paid by cyclists, paid by bus users, and paid by motorists. It is providing public space for storage of private property.

Would you prefer nothing to change?

You pay taxes to support lots of things you don't ever necessarily directly benefit from. You nay indirectly benefit from free parking.

kippy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So let's put the funding in making public transport free, instead of providing public storage space for private property.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/german-cities-to-trial-free-public-transport-to-cut-pollution

To do this you would need to subsidise regular public transport from the commuter towns. Tbf I don't have an issue with free public transport but currently even if public transport were free it would not solve the problem.

AndrewJRenko

kippy wrote: »

To do this you would need to subsidise regular public transport from the commuter towns. Tbf I don't have an issue with free public transport but currently even if public transport were free it would not solve the problem.

No, you wouldn't. You let motorists pay for the costs of their parking, and you provide free public transport from the park-and-ride regions for everyone, motorists and others.

kippy wrote: »

Would you prefer nothing to change?

You pay taxes to support lots of things you don't ever necessarily directly benefit from. You nay indirectly benefit from free parking.

Most of the things that I pay taxes to support are open to me to use if I choose - they are not restricted to a subset of society who have the money to buy and run a car.

Discodog wrote: »

The cost of free parking is a fraction of the cost of free public transport for the whole city. It's a non starter.

Actually it's a much higher cost than is generally recognised.


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/business/economy/15view.html

Bobeagleburger

It'd be great if they at least tried something different.

Discodog

kippy wrote: »

Would you prefer nothing to change?

You pay taxes to support lots of things you don't ever necessarily directly benefit from. You nay indirectly benefit from free parking.

Probably. I am sure the tone here matches that in the Council. People want to win their battle, at all cost. There will only be less traffic with democracy, understanding & compromise. I rarely post in these threads because they are so unrealistic & at time almost aggressive.

So nothing will change. There is no plan that has widespread support. The Oxford plan worked despite huge initial opposition including by the like of Clarkson. But the plan was designed to benefit everyone, not selective groups. It works really well because it won people over. It didn't try to batter them into submission.

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, you wouldn't. You let motorists pay for the costs of their parking, and you provide free public transport from the park-and-ride regions for everyone, motorists and others.





Most of the things that I pay taxes to support are open to me to use if I choose - they are not restricted to a subset of society who have the money to buy and run a car.




Actually it's a much higher cost than is generally recognised.


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/business/economy/15view.html

That has nothing to do with Park & Ride. The cost is the land & some security - usually cctv so the motorists know they can park safely. Remember you are trying to encourage them to park

AndrewJRenko

Discodog wrote: »

That has nothing to do with Park & Ride. The cost is the land & some security - usually cctv so the motorists know they can park safely. Remember you are trying to encourage them to park

Not really - you're not trying to 'encourage them to park'. You're trying to discourage them from driving.

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not really - you're not trying to 'encourage them to park'. You're trying to discourage them from driving.

If you aren't a town planner you should consider becoming one. That is exactly the attitude you hear from people who are so blinkered. It's our way or nothing & guess what - it will be nothing for years.

By the way encouraging them to park in the P&R is discouraging driving into the city - but you already knew that.

AndrewJRenko

Discodog wrote: »

If you aren't a town planner you should consider becoming one. That is exactly the attitude you hear from people who are so blinkered. It's our way or nothing & guess what - it will be nothing for years.

Ironically enough, that's pretty much exactly what you're doing here - only considering the car-centric windscreen view of transport - it's your way or nothing else. Guess what?

Discodog wrote: »

By the way encouraging them to park in the P&R is discouraging driving into the city - but you already knew that.

You're right - free parking is one way of discouraging driving into the city. But it's not the only way. It's definitely not the fairest way of doing it. So there's a big question of whether it's the best way of doing it.


What is your big problem with letting people save a €3-€4 bus fare instead of saving a €3-€4 parking fee?

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ironically enough, that's pretty much exactly what you're doing here - only considering the car-centric windscreen view of transport - it's your way or nothing else. Guess what?

You're right - free parking is one way of discouraging driving into the city. But it's not the only way. It's definitely not the fairest way of doing it. So there's a big question of whether it's the best way of doing it.


What is your big problem with letting people save a €3-€4 bus fare instead of saving a €3-€4 parking fee?

Hardly. My proposal would copy Oxford. Thousands of cyclists & no private cars.

The problem is cost. Free transport for all would cost a fortune & no Council or government will ever vote for it. There are already complaints about the cost of free travel for pensioners. No point in thinking about dream schemes that can never happen.

By the way look out on Wednesday & Friday. I have to drive from West of Spiddal to Cregmore & Maree. I will be that lone occupant in a car. You won't notice the tools & equipment in the back. I have to drive through the city four times instead of around it.

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

If you aren't a town planner you should consider becoming one.

I would echo that. AndrewJRenko does know what he is talking about when it comes to town planning.

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

I would echo that. AndrewJRenko does know what he is talking about when it comes to town planning.

Then he should draw up a proposal, canvass & seek election. He could start by outlining the total cost of providing free public transport ?

kippy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, you wouldn't. You let motorists pay for the costs of their parking, and you provide free public transport from the park-and-ride regions for everyone, motorists and others.





Most of the things that I pay taxes to support are open to me to use if I choose - they are not restricted to a subset of society who have the money to buy and run a car.




Actually it's a much higher cost than is generally recognised.


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/business/economy/15view.html

The taxation argument is nonsense. Theres lots of things your taxation goes towards that you never will use whether you want to or not. That's just life.
Motorists pay a substantial levey to own a car as things stand. You have to at least incentivise them initially to use something that works for them.
Free parking is a much cheaper option than a functioning free public transport system..

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

Then he should draw up a proposal, canvass & seek election. He could start by outlining the total cost of providing free public transport ?

What? Canvass & seek election? Town planners are not Cllr's/TD's, they dont seek election.

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

What? Canvass & seek election? Town planners are not Cllr's/TD's, they dont seek election.

Their plans have to be approved by the people who control the purse strings. you have more chance of influence by becoming one of them.

Discodog

kippy wrote: »

The taxation argument is nonsense. Theres lots of things your taxation goes towards that you never will use whether you want to or not. That's just life.
Motorists pay a substantial levey to own a car as things stand. You have to at least incentivise them initially to use something that works for them.
Free parking is a much cheaper option than a functioning free public transport system..

Especially as it means they don't drive into the city. Galway is suited to park & ride. There are strong similarities to Oxford who introduced their system in 1973 :eek:

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10859209.How_Oxford_led_the_way_to_create_Park_and_Rides/

AndrewJRenko

Discodog wrote: »

Hardly. My proposal would copy Oxford. Thousands of cyclists & no private cars.

And parking fees too presumably, just like in Oxford?

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/public-transport/park-and-ride?utm_term=nil&utm_content=


They do offer a combined parking/bus ticket, with a designated part of the cost for parking.

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is cost. Free transport for all would cost a fortune & no Council or government will ever vote for it. There are already complaints about the cost of free travel for pensioners. No point in thinking about dream schemes that can never happen.

I'd guess that the Mayors and Ministers in Germany said the same, that no-one will ever vote for it - but they did, it seems;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/german-cities-to-trial-free-public-transport-to-cut-pollution


But seriously, the cost per person per day will be in a similar ballpark - how come the cost of parking is acceptable but not the cost of a bus fare?

Discodog wrote: »

By the way look out on Wednesday & Friday. I have to drive from West of Spiddal to Cregmore & Maree. I will be that lone occupant in a car. You won't notice the tools & equipment in the back. I have to drive through the city four times instead of around it.

I guess if you're carrying tools and equipment, the P&R won't be much use to you. Funnily enough, I didn't mention occupancy rates, but now that you do mention it - the last time I looked, average car occupancy rates were about 1.2. So four out of five cars are driver only - and you want us to provide storage space for the extra armchair and couch that you drive around with - just because?

Discodog wrote: »

Then he should draw up a proposal, canvass & seek election. He could start by outlining the total cost of providing free public transport ?

Yeah, the cost per person per day is outlined above, and is in the same ballpark - so what's the problem?

kippy wrote: »

The taxation argument is nonsense. Theres lots of things your taxation goes towards that you never will use whether you want to or not. That's just life.

It's not so much whether you 'want to use them' - it is the question of whether public benefits should be focused on those who earn most, or those who earn least.

kippy wrote: »

Motorists pay a substantial levey to own a car as things stand. You have to at least incentivise them initially to use something that works for them.
Free parking is a much cheaper option than a functioning free public transport system..

Motorists pay nothing near the cost of the environmental damage done by motor vehicle engines. Maybe when they start paying for something near the full cost of the damage done, maybe then they could start looking for 'incentives'. Why should public money be going to subsidise motorists?

Discodog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And parking fees too presumably, just like in Oxford?

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/public-transport/park-and-ride?utm_term=nil&utm_content=


They do offer a combined parking/bus ticket, with a designated part of the cost for parking.




I'd guess that the Mayors and Ministers in Germany said the same, that no-one will ever vote for it - but they did, it seems;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/german-cities-to-trial-free-public-transport-to-cut-pollution


But seriously, the cost per person per day will be in a similar ballpark - how come the cost of parking is acceptable but not the cost of a bus fare?






I guess if you're carrying tools and equipment, the P&R won't be much use to you. Funnily enough, I didn't mention occupancy rates, but now that you do mention it - the last time I looked, average car occupancy rates were about 1.2. So four out of five cars are driver only - and you want us to provide storage space for the extra armchair and couch that you drive around with - just because?



Yeah, the cost per person per day is outlined above, and is in the same ballpark - so what's the problem?



It's not so much whether you 'want to use them' - it is the question of whether public benefits should be focused on those who earn most, or those who earn least.



Motorists pay nothing near the cost of the environmental damage done by motor vehicle engines. Maybe when they start paying for something near the full cost of the damage done, maybe then they could start looking for 'incentives'. Why should public money be going to subsidise motorists?

Meanwhile, the Association of German Cities chief, Helmut Dedy, warned that “we expect a clear statement about how [free transport] will be financed” from the federal government.

Let us know how your meeting goes with Leo.

Many years ago, when I was working as an environmental scientist, my famous boss said that the Greens would destroy us all.

Your mantra is to force cars off the road by making them too expensive to own/run. Good luck with getting that approved.

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

Especially as it means they don't drive into the city. Galway is suited to park & ride. There are strong similarities to Oxford who introduced their system in 1973 :eek:

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10859209.How_Oxford_led_the_way_to_create_Park_and_Rides/

Ya 100% agree - Galway is suited. Have you lived in Oxford? - place I have not visited yet but have heard positive story's about it. Same goes for York.

what_traffic

Discodog wrote: »

Many years ago, when I was working as an environmental scientist, my famous boss said that the Greens would destroy us all.

How so famous?

John_Rambo

Discodog wrote: »

All accounts ? You mean the official ones ? My account is direct from an Espoo resident who uses it daily. It was years late & heavily over budget. And she still drives into Helsinki whenever the car is available.

That's one person Discodog. I'm sure there's a good few more that actually use the metro successfully.

Discodog

what_traffic wrote: »

How so famous?

On tv a lot, wrote several books, was at the forefront of environmental protection.