The Sub 4 Support Thread

Murph_D

Lot of questions there!

1. Heart rate -others may differ, but in my opinion maybe hold off until your next marathon or the one after before taking the HR approach. You need to establish some aerobic fitness in a sustained way before your HR will be reliable enough to train to. Maybe. Also as you suspect, the wrist HRM is not always reliable. Gives me terribly unreliable and inconsistent readings anyway.

2. Tempo - for Pfitzinger, tempo pace is what you can sustain for about an hour. This of course varies between runners. For novices, somewhere between 10k-15k pace. What are your recent race times? This will give you a clue.

3. In my opinion you will benefit from the club session, as long as you combine it with the plan effectively, swapping out a like for like session, depending on whether the club is doing speed work or tempo stuff. Talk to one of the club coaches for advice there. (Don’t be surprised though if they try to talk you out of P&D!) Anytime I used P&D myself, I always combined with club speed sessions (which are always available on Tuesdays at my club). The more you do this, however, the less you are following the plan, obviously, and you risk having no plan, or at best a different plan.

Good luck!

shotgunmcos

+1 on heart rate. I use it but have trained with heart rate for years. When I look back on using my first HRM I relied on hr too much and neglected how the run actually felt vs the hr and vs pace amongst other things.

Even knowing your max and resting hr its hard to know without specifically testing zones and thresholds. From what I have read and written out in P&D (good to hear you are enjoying the plan) it is based on hr and paces. No harm in using hr to help control the plan but not to govern the plan. In another book I remember a quote likje "we don't train to hold a certain hr for a marathon we train to maintain a certain pace to hit, usually a pretty specific time goal". Can't remember which one as I've read a bunch if them lately.

3 weeks down and enjoying it, good luck!

HelenAnne

Murph_D wrote: »

Lot of questions there!


3. In my opinion you will benefit from the club session, as long as you combine it with the plan effectively, swapping out a like for like session, depending on whether the club is doing speed work or tempo stuff. Talk to one of the club coaches for advice there. (Don’t be surprised though if they try to talk you out of P&D!) Anytime I used P&D myself, I always combined with club speed sessions (which are always available on Tuesdays at my club). The more you do this, however, the less you are following the plan, obviously, and you risk having no plan, or at best a different plan.

Good luck!

If you do join a club, and if they’re a club with a lot of marathoners, you could just follow the club plan? Then you’d be doing the same as everyone else, and it takes all the planning hassle out of it.

I know a lot of the first marathon times from people in my club who just did their marathon training along with everyone else (particularly the long runs and the mid-week medium-long runs) were sub-4.

Alorra

Murph_D wrote: »

Lot of questions there!

2. Tempo - for Pfitzinger, tempo pace is what you can sustain for about an hour. This of course varies between runners. For novices, somewhere between 10k-15k pace. What are your recent race times? This will give you a clue.

3. In my opinion you will benefit from the club session, as long as you combine it with the plan effectively, swapping out a like for like session, depending on whether the club is doing speed work or tempo stuff. Talk to one of the club coaches for advice there. (Don’t be surprised though if they try to talk you out of P&D!) Anytime I used P&D myself, I always combined with club speed sessions (which are always available on Tuesdays at my club). The more you do this, however, the less you are following the plan, obviously, and you risk having no plan, or at best a different plan.

Good luck!

Thanks for replies.
I think those comments make sense and will run with the suggested paces and a half eye on them heart rate gauge to make sure I am not going way out of whack for the planned type of run.

Re the race paces, I have not ran a race in ages, i would think i can do a 5k in approx 21mins to 21.30 now.
I am doing the liberties fun run 4 miler next week and then the 10k of the race series at the end of that week. So i should have a better idea of current fitness levels then.

I will look at trying to make the club thing work/ fit in, I think the more people around the easier will be the journey.

Alorra

HelenAnne wrote: »

If you do join a club, and if they’re a club with a lot of marathoners, you could just follow the club plan? Then you’d be doing the same as everyone else, and it takes all the planning hassle out of it.

I know a lot of the first marathon times from people in my club who just did their marathon training along with everyone else (particularly the long runs and the mid-week medium-long runs) were sub-4.

This is true too:),
hmmm, right now i will keep to the current plan and see if i reckon i can get it all fitted in.

The Black Oil

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Best tip I can give you, any anyone else, is to buy this book, read it from cover to cover and start training:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600

It worked for me, and a lot of other runners. When someone talks about P&D, this is what they're talking about.

Came in the post today. Time to start reading.

ewc78

Did the meno Wednesday workout tonight as football was apparently coming home last night so wanted to watch that. Turns out it isn't coming home at all now....:)
The workout went very well. Found it tough but more manageable than when I did it a few weeks ago as a trial run.

Pomplamousse

ewc78 wrote: »

Did the meno Wednesday workout tonight as football was apparently coming home last night so wanted to watch that. Turns out it isn't coming home at all now....:)
The workout went very well. Found it tough but more manageable than when I did it a few weeks ago as a trial run.

Is that the week 2 progression session? I really enjoyed that one. Which is more than can be said for the week 1 and 3 sessions:o

Football must be really homesick by now:p

ewc78

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Is that the week 2 progression session? I really enjoyed that one. Which is more than can be said for the week 1 and 3 sessions:o

Football must be really homesick by now:p

Yeah the progression workout.

The Black Oil

This is what I came up with from the progression in week 2. Will say more in my log. Didn't find it tiring, tbh.

1:27:39, 8.29 miles at 10:34
Warm up 2.09 miles at 11:42

Rep|Time|Distance|Paced - aimed for (min/mi)|Actual
1|8.13|0.87|9:40|9:28
2|8:05|0.86|9:27|9:27
3|8:11|0:89|9:04|9:10
-|0:14|0.03|9:48|watch user error
4|8:48|1.03|8:38|8:34

Cool down 2.53 miles at 11:44

ewc78

I dunno how to do fancy tables but these are my average paces for each 8 minute interval.(min/km pace in brackets)

1 - 8mins @ Steady Pace 9:26 min/mile. (5:52)
2 - 8mins @ Marathon Pace 8:54 min/mile (5:32)
3 - 8mins @ Half Mara Pace 8:12 min/mile(5:06)
4 - 8mins @ Hard Pace 7:01 min/mile(4:22)

Also did warm up and down at about 10 min/mile pace.

Murph_D

The Black Oil wrote: »

This is what I came up with from the progression in week 2. Will say more in my log. Didn't find it tiring, tbh.

1:27:39, 8.29 miles at 10:34
Warm up 2.09 miles at 11:42

Rep|Time|Distance|Paced - aimed for (min/mi)|Actual
1|8.13|0.87|9:40|9:28
2|8:05|0.86|9:27|9:27
3|8:11|0:89|9:04|9:10
-|0:14|0.03|9:48|watch user error
4|8:48|1.03|8:38|8:34

Cool down 2.53 miles at 11:44

Well if you found it easy, maybe you found out something about yourself!

These paces are for someone targeting more like 4:15, though, not sub-4?

The Black Oil

Murph_D wrote: »

Well if you found it easy, maybe you found out something about yourself!

These paces are for someone targeting more like 4:15, though, not sub-4?

They've from the calculator off of a 10k (53:39 - May 2018). Had I gone with 5k (23:06 - June 2018) calculator stuff, then it would have been:

Steady 8:30
MP 8:28
HMP 8:08
10k/hard 7:44

It's been kicking around my head a bit re whether to use the 5k or 10k paces for midweek stuff, or just pick one or the other overall, including for long runs. There are some MP miles later in the meno plan, both midweek and on Sundays. I'm was thinking of using the 10k times there. So yeah, I dunno. Overthinking it? 5k paces would be good too, unless this would heighten injury risk somehow. I do enjoy training a lot and want to get something out of it. With longer runs coming up, and at my 10k easy pace, I can imagine hitting close to 4 hours, or more with the 18, 20, 22 milers.

Murph_D

The Black Oil wrote: »

They've from the calculator off of a 10k (53:39 - May 2018). Had I gone with 5k (23:06 - June 2018) calculator stuff, then it would have been:

Steady 8:30
MP 8:28
HMP 8:08
10k/hard 7:44

It's been kicking around my head a bit re whether to use the 5k or 10k paces for midweek stuff, or just pick one or the other overall, including for long runs. There are some MP miles later in the meno plan, both midweek and on Sundays. I'm was thinking of using the 10k times there. So yeah, I dunno. Overthinking it? 5k paces would be good too, unless this would heighten injury risk somehow. I do enjoy training a lot and want to get something out of it. With longer runs coming up, and at my 10k easy pace, I can imagine hitting close to 4 hours, or more with the 18, 20, 22 milers.

Well, you should stick to what the recent race result is telling you, assuming you went out and raced it hard? So that time points towards a 4:05-4:10 marathon if you can scale it up - although the drop-off between your 5 and 10k suggests you need to work on the endurance aspect. Then again, if you found that session easy, maybe that 10k was not representative. Your next tune up race should give you a good idea of where you are at.

Bluesquare

Good luck guys !!

I’m not running a marathon this year but will be following this thread closely as hopefully this will be my goal next year !!

The Black Oil

Murph_D wrote: »

Well, you should stick to what the recent race result is telling you, assuming you went out and raced it hard? So that time points towards a 4:05-4:10 marathon if you can scale it up - although the drop-off between your 5 and 10k suggests you need to work on the endurance aspect. Then again, if you found that session easy, maybe that 10k was not representative. Your next tune up race should give you a good idea of where you are at.

The 10k was a warm afternoon and I was reluctant to hit the accelerator, as I often am. 5k - I could have given more, really. I didn't fully, in WW-speak (:pac:) give it a good rattle. FD10 in Sept will probably be the next race. I picked up the pace with my easy runs yesterday and this morning. Now have some fatigue on the scoreboard...

Hedgehoggy

Hope everyone is getting on well with their training. Was hoping someone could help me with a question!
I've decided to follow the meno plan as well. Last week I had a niggle in my calf - a trip to the physio, lots of foam rolling and some exercises have cleared it up. As recommended by the physio I dropped the session from the 2nd week of the meno plan - but I did three easy runs and the long run (14m). My overall mileage for the week was in the recommended range - although it was lower than I had been doing over the past few weeks. Last week I got back on plan and did the 3x3 session and the 16 miler as well a number of other runs - no trouble with the calf etc.

Hopefully I'm not reading the plan wrong but this week seems to be a bit of a step back week - with a 10 mile long run and a speed session (10x400@3-5k pace) - As last week was a bit of a step back - I'm wondering if I should actually do the session that I missed from the previous week (progression session) or should I just stick to the plan? I've read elsewhere not to go chasing miles that you missed.......

ewc78

First off it sounds to me that you're a week ahead. This week should be week 3 and the 3*3 session is in this week's plan unless you are doing thr 10k race at the weekend then there is alternative plan for the week.

Hedgehoggy

ewc78 wrote: »

First off it sounds to be that you're a week ahead. This week should be week 3 and the 3*3 session is in this week's plan unless you are doing here 10k race at the weekend then there is alternative plan for the week.

Ya - I was wondering that when I was reading the post here this week.... hmmmm not sure how I managed that....

Murph_D

If you’re a week ahead and feeling good I’d repeat the week you’ve just done. But bearing in mind the calf issue, maybe good to take it extra easy and give it some more recovery time as you don’t want to push things injury-wise this early (or anytime really). If it were me (and I’m conservative) I’d err on the easy side. Maybe do the session as just 1x3k tempo, and take the LR handy again.

(By the way, not sure where you’re getting plan from, but my google doc version has links to original post so you can get more insights into the schedule - as well as people’s questions and feedback at the time this plan was originally playing out).

Hedgehoggy

Murph_D wrote: »

If you’re a week ahead and feeling good I’d repeat the week you’ve just done. But bearing in mind the calf issue, maybe good to take it extra easy and give it some more recovery time as you don’t want to push things injury-wise this early (or anytime really). If it were me (and I’m conservative) I’d err on the easy side. Maybe do the session as just 1x3k tempo, and take the LR handy again.

(By the way, not sure where you’re getting plan from, but my google doc version has links to original post so you can get more insights into the schedule - as well as people’s questions and feedback at the time this plan was originally playing out).

Cheers, I'll do this and will look up the links too. I've read your old log on your experience of meno as well which was really useful and a very good read!

I love to hate 2mile repeats. They're tough but so effective. Was happy with how the session went last week. Splits were 7.20, 7.20 and 7.24., so overall happy with consistency. Will be good to repeat the session this week.

ewc78

So I did tonight's Wednesday workout which for anyone doing race series 10k at the weekend is a 10mile easy run with strides.
I've never done strides so wondering if I did them right. I finished my run and then I did 10x30secs at a fast but manageable pace, I walked 45secs in between each.
The plan calls for strides every week so just want to make sure I have them right.

RayCun

That's about it, but also think of the strides as an opportunity to practice good running form

The Black Oil

I did the tempo of week 3 (meno) tonight. 3x2 miles at 8:13, 8:11, 8:17. Happy enough with that. Legs a bit tired now.

ewc78

How's everyone getting on? Did the meno plan Wednesday workout tonight. 10 miles with 6 @MP
Went great. Very warm out though.

judeboy101

19mile lsr at 10min mile pace last week. Hoping to do 22mile lsr 10@mp rest at 10:15min mile in morn , 4 weeks to Longford.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

How's everyone getting on? Did the meno plan Wednesday workout tonight. 10 miles with 6 @MP
Went great. Very warm out though.

I’m going well. Changed my plan and signed up with a coach for a personalized plan. I’ve said sub 4:10 for now and will see how I’m going. Running the Killarney HM on Saturday but as a training run. Will be happy to do it at a consistent 9 min mile.

The Black Oil

Tonight was 10x 400m @3-5k pace (step back version of week 4). Did most in a housing state and a little incline dented the pace a bit. Generally only notice tiredness when I sit down at home. Looking forward to 10 miles with 6MP on Sunday. Sleep's been a bit iffy lately.

Weeks seem to be flying by.

ewc78

The Black Oil wrote: »

Tonight was 10x 400m @3-5k pace (step back version of week 4). Did most in a housing state and a little incline dented the pace a bit. Generally only notice tiredness when I sit down at home. Looking forward to 10 miles with 6MP on Sunday. Sleep's been a bit iffy lately.

Weeks seem to be flying by.

I did the race series 10km at the weekend so I have a different plan to follow this week. 16mile lsr this Sunday !

ariana`

The Black Oil wrote: »

I did the tempo of week 3 (meno) tonight. 3x2 miles at 8:13, 8:11, 8:17. Happy enough with that. Legs a bit tired now.

ewc78 wrote: »

How's everyone getting on? Did the meno plan Wednesday workout tonight. 10 miles with 6 @MP
Went great. Very warm out though.

judeboy101 wrote: »

19mile lsr at 10min mile pace last week. Hoping to do 22mile lsr 10@mp rest at 10:15min mile in morn , 4 weeks to Longford.

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m going well. Changed my plan and signed up with a coach for a personalized plan. I’ve said sub 4:10 for now and will see how I’m going. Running the Killarney HM on Saturday but as a training run. Will be happy to do it at a consistent 9 min mile.

The Black Oil wrote: »

Tonight was 10x 400m @3-5k pace (step back version of week 4). Did most in a housing state and a little incline dented the pace a bit. Generally only notice tiredness when I sit down at home. Looking forward to 10 miles with 6MP on Sunday. Sleep's been a bit iffy lately.

Weeks seem to be flying by.

ewc78 wrote: »

I did the race series 10km at the weekend so I have a different plan to follow this week. 16mile lsr this Sunday !

Wow, I have to admit reading these posts is a real eye opener. Everyone is doing fairly serious long runs with lots of mp miles and sessions. 4:10 is a more realistic target for me i'd have thought but reading this i'm seriously doubting even 4:10 off the back of the training i'm doing. My plan (grads) has 2hrs easy this weekend - at my pace off the calculator (if i stick to it) that would be 11.25 miles... I was planning to add on 15-30 minutes and make it 13-14 miles but 13 miles easy still doesn't really cut it compared to the super training going on here :eek: Best of luck all, I'll be back in a few years :pac: