The Sub 4 Support Thread

judeboy101

ariana` wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Yep 12milr this week slow pace and plenty of hill, mix temp low mileage stuff. I'm using tailwind and wagon wheels for fuel. Half wheel at 6,12,18,20 miles constant sipping of tailwind mixture plus I've made up 1shot top up tailwinds using giant straws from Tiger. Each holds 100cals of powder. It won't b lack of energy that gets me this time , lol.

How do you stop the chocolate on the wagon wheels from melting? And how do you find eating - actually chewing while running?

I wasn't very successful with gels last year - they were ok on my stomach but my hands were so sticky and sweaty that i struggled to even open them and when i did i'd spill some each time, in the end i couldn't face even trying. I think i need a change this year.

I remember someone handed me a very small mini-snickers type of thing around 15m and it was divine, just really hit the spot but i'm not sure about carrying chocolate. And that was just 1, a few of them mightn't work so well either.

I freeze it before run it turns crumbly and melts away on tongue. Tailwind is powder and u mix with ur drink so it is so easy on ur tummy. I run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Do you mean you are mixing drinks on the run? To be honest, this seems an overcomplicated way to get drinks for a 4-hour marathon. I’m a big believer in the ‘Keep It Simple’ rule. But whatever works!

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Do you mean you are mixing drinks on the run? To be honest, this seems an overcomplicated way to get drinks for a 4-hour marathon. I’m a big believer in the ‘Keep It Simple’ rule. But whatever works!

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Kellygirl

judeboy101 wrote: »

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Why not just add the powder to the bottle they hand you at the water station?

judeboy101

Kellygirl wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Why not just add the powder to the bottle they hand you at the water station?

My bottle bigger plus easier to add powder to empty bottle :-)

ariana`

I'm afraid it seems over complicated to me too. By filling a bottle at a water station do you mean you pour water from one (or multiple) bottle(s) handed to you into a bottle you carry yourself? I'd probably spill half it

Kellygirl

A friend of mine uses something like Tailwind and carries it diluted but really concentrated in a 250ml bottle. When she takes water at each station she takes a gulp from her concentrated bottle and then washes it down with the water. Not sure if that’s an option?

Or a backpack with it already diluted - I used train with one and never bothered me.

judeboy101

Kellygirl wrote: »

A friend of mine uses something like Tailwind and carries it diluted but really concentrated in a 250ml bottle. When she takes water at each station she takes a gulp from her concentrated bottle and then washes it down with the water. Not sure if that’s an option?

Or a backpack with it already diluted - I used train with one and never bothered me.

Belts and backpacks iv tried and never felt comfortable, I might try other method @dub thanks for tip.

ewc78

So following on from my poor Wednesday workout last week I also had a very poor LSR on Saturday only managing 11miles. Felt really unwell and dizzy and just had to stop.
I didn't run again until yesterday morning and felt better and I did the Wednesday workout this morning and nailed it. This week was 2x4 miles at MP(plus a few miles warm up/down). Felt great for the whole workout, and would nearly have done another 4miles at MP if I had of had the time.
I do think I had a bit of a bug last week so that could have played a part. Glad to be back on track for now though.

judeboy101

ewc78 wrote: »

So following on from my poor Wednesday workout last week I also had a very poor LSR on Saturday only managing 11miles. Felt really unwell and dizzy and just had to stop.
I didn't run again until yesterday morning and felt better and I did the Wednesday workout this morning and nailed it. This week was 2x4 miles at MP(plus a few miles warm up/down). Felt great for the whole workout, and would nearly have done another 4miles at MP if I had of had the time.
I do think I had a bit of a bug last week so that could have played a part. Glad to be back on track for now though.

Think I read somewhere that long distance running actually decreases immunity and marathons reck ur kidneys

RayCun

judeboy101 wrote: »

Think I read somewhere that long distance running actually decreases immunity and marathons reck ur kidneys

Taking painkillers to run can wreck your kidneys. Don't do it.

Exercise without sufficient recovery will wear you down, overtraining is real and a serious problem. But if you don't overdo it you'll be fine.

judeboy101

"Taking painkillers to run can wreck your kidneys. Don't do it"


Jesus, is that a thing?

RayCun

Yes, people do it.

It's a terrible idea.

judeboy101

12 mile lsr @10min pace. Felt very very easy but awful humidity. I'm in good shape no strains or niggles this time nxt week cross fingers.

The Black Oil

Last week's 18 miles: 3:07:58 at 10:26.
This past Sunday's 18 miles: 3:08:16 at 10:27.

Throw 20 minutes onto that and I'm probably looking at 3:30 or so for 20 miles. Add another 20 on and it'll be 3:50 ish for the 22 miler later in the plan. How's that re time on your feet, etc? iirc, some of ye aren't doing the 22. Are you going to make up the mileage on other easy days? Not too worried as it's several weeks away yet.

ewc78

I think 3hrs 50mins sounds like an awful long time on your feet in training. I certainly won't be doing a 22mile lsr.
Reckon most I'll go is 3hrs which should be about 19miles with the pace I've been running my LSRs which is about 9:40min/miles. Probably do that 3 or 4 times in the coming weeks.
Each to their own, but I get far more confidence that I can go sub 4 by the Marathon Pace runs I do and not by the distance I run on the LSR day.
Then I've done 2 Marathons so I know I can go the distance.
I've read on other sites that say anything over 3hrs in training is unnecessary, especially at our level.
I'm far from an expert though.

RedRunner

14.5 miles yesterday with 13 of those at pmp.(Schoolboy error, did the run with a faster runner ( she is targeting 3:30-3:40). Good test but an unintentional one.
I've an enflamed achilles at the moment too so that is a bit sore now(although that is not a result of this run, just a cumulative issue I've being trying to deal with)

Putting it up here as it's good to show the bad as well as the good, the bad decisions as well as the good decisions....it's all part of the process I guess.

Splits  Avg Moving Pace
1 08:59
2 08:43
3 08:53
4 09:02
5 08:57
6 08:47
7 08:58
8 08:56
9 08:54
10 08:54
11 09:05
12 08:50
13 08:52
14 09:18
15 09:10

chickey2

I just had a look back at my longest run on the meno plan and I did 34km (just over 21miles) in 3:30. I ran DCM in 3:58 a few weeks later.

RedRunner

ewc78 wrote: »

I think 3hrs 50mins sounds like an awful long time on your feet in training. I certainly won't be doing a 22mile lsr.
Reckon most I'll go is 3hrs which should be about 19miles with the pace I've been running my LSRs which is about 9:40min/miles. Probably do that 3 or 4 times in the coming weeks.
Each to their own, but I get far more confidence that I can go sub 4 by the Marathon Pace runs I do and not by the distance I run on the LSR day.
Then I've done 2 Marathons so I know I can go the distance.
I've read on other sites that say anything over 3hrs in training is unnecessary, especially at our level.
I'm far from an expert though.

I would agree with this. I'd avoid anything over 3hrs 30 mins , but again wouldnt claim to be an expert.

Like chickey2 when i did meno plan in 2014 on way to 3:52 (which is still my pb) my longest run was 22 miles w 10Mp in 3hrs 16mins. Only did one of those.

The Black Oil

I've been fortunate enough to have a positive mental attitude since before starting the plan. Assuming that sticks around until Oct I think it'll help me as much as the actual training. Could look at going close to 10 min/mi on some of those longer runs. The second 22 miler in the meno plan has a mixture of stuff which I'd like to try. But, if putting a line through the first 22 due to time on feet is advisable I wouldn't be worried about the race itself. Having the Weds sessions in the bag helps too.

judeboy101

Can anyone linky me to the meno plan, I haven't the foggiest what ye are talking about :-)

RedRunner

judeboy101 wrote: »

Can anyone linky me to the meno plan, I haven't the foggiest what ye are talking about :-)

I've a copy of it here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx799hpw9deXQkFXU3FtamVxRGM/view?usp=sharing

Hopefully that will work. Just change the dates to suit and you'll note alternate runs etc if week clashes with a planned race etc.

Murph_D

ewc78 wrote: »

I think 3hrs 50mins sounds like an awful long time on your feet in training. I certainly won't be doing a 22mile lsr.
Reckon most I'll go is 3hrs which should be about 19miles with the pace I've been running my LSRs which is about 9:40min/miles. Probably do that 3 or 4 times in the coming weeks.
Each to their own, but I get far more confidence that I can go sub 4 by the Marathon Pace runs I do and not by the distance I run on the LSR day.
Then I've done 2 Marathons so I know I can go the distance.
I've read on other sites that say anything over 3hrs in training is unnecessary, especially at our level.
I'm far from an expert though.

First time I followed this plan I was targeting 3:45 and the slower of the 22s (with no MP) came in around 3:30, which is probably the longest training run I’ve ever done. According to my log I was very tired but no harm done. I would tend to follow the 2:45 max rule these days but at the time I just went with it and trusted the plan. I’d make the call closer to the day after you have a couple of 20s under your belt.

Pink11

Hope it isn't too late for me to join. Ariana, thank you for showing me this thread.

I've never been a natural at running but have been ploughing away at it for nearly 7 years.

Attempting my third DCM this year. I am haunted by my first marathon attempt - 4 hours 4 mins in 2015. Followed the DCM novice thread but on the day I was hit by a 3/4 full bottle thrown by another around mile 22 which slowed me down for the remainder of the race as I was quite winded and in pain.

DCM 2016: I didn't train as hard as I did the year prior and picked up a bad hip injury. Did a lot of walking and finally hobbled across the finish line in 4 hours 40 mins.


I took last year off but kept myself ticking over with 2 half marathons, a few 10ks and I made sure I ran at least 1/2 a week. Pace & speed fell dramatically.

January 2018 I started pilates & flexibility classes (1 hour sessions x 5 times a week) to strengthen up my lingering hip issue. They have worked a dream. Started running properly again shortly after starting those and have been following: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/intermediate-1-marathon/ so far.

tHE vAGGABOND

"on the day I was hit by a 3/4 full bottle thrown by another around mile 22 which slowed me down for the remainder of the race as I was quite winded and in pain"

Jasus christ, that is rough

I was way near the back of the Connemara marathon in 2016 [I think, the one with awful sideways rain for most of it, worst weather I have ever run in]. I saw someone roll their ankle half way up hell of the w-h-est hill near the end, as ground was an utter mess of water bottles with a single mouthful out of them. I was so messed up I think I actually cried for them, half an hour to go or something, after 4 hours and more in the worst weather ever...

Did not do much running since that day at all tbh - but back for this one as a means for my own mental health tbh, and aiming for Sub-4 too (as I have run to much to run with no time goal!!] - Long runs are going really well. But not done enough speed work and/or marathon pace sessions. But good to realise that now, and not 20 miles into the race itself

Wubble Wubble

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

"on the day I was hit by a 3/4 full bottle thrown by another around mile 22 which slowed me down for the remainder of the race as I was quite winded and in pain"

Jasus christ, that is rough

I was way near the back of the Connemara marathon in 2016 [I think, the one with awful sideways rain for most of it, worst weather I have ever run in]. I saw someone roll their ankle half way up hell of the w-h-est hill near the end, as ground was an utter mess of water bottles with a single mouthful out of them. I was so messed up I think I actually cried for them, half an hour to go or something, after 4 hours and more in the worst weather ever...

Did not do much running since that day at all tbh - but back for this one as a means for my own mental health tbh, and aiming for Sub-4 too (as I have run to much to run with no time goal!!] - Long runs are going really well. But not done enough speed work and/or marathon pace sessions. But good to realise that now, and not 20 miles into the race itself

That's the one all right! I ran the HM that year; thankfully there were only about 5 full marathoners ahead of me, so no mass of water bottles to negotiate.

Pink11

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

"on the day I was hit by a 3/4 full bottle thrown by another around mile 22 which slowed me down for the remainder of the race as I was quite winded and in pain"

Jasus christ, that is rough

I was way near the back of the Connemara marathon in 2016 [I think, the one with awful sideways rain for most of it, worst weather I have ever run in]. I saw someone roll their ankle half way up hell of the w-h-est hill near the end, as ground was an utter mess of water bottles with a single mouthful out of them. I was so messed up I think I actually cried for them, half an hour to go or something, after 4 hours and more in the worst weather ever...

Did not do much running since that day at all tbh - but back for this one as a means for my own mental health tbh, and aiming for Sub-4 too (as I have run to much to run with no time goal!!] - Long runs are going really well. But not done enough speed work and/or marathon pace sessions. But good to realise that now, and not 20 miles into the race itself

haha I was actually traumatized from the incident. Poor lad who threw the bottle did apologise and looked legit concerned in fairness to him. Was a genuine accident. I was barely able to mouth 'I'm ok keep going!'.

That poor runner, did they finish do you know?

I'm in exact same boat as you. Seem to be flying along - keeping my pesky hip stretched as much as possible to avoid injury but need to work on my speed. Speed work is the part I dislike the most though!

I fantasize about gliding in at 3.55 and not 3.59.59 with a heart attack imminent!


Training:

I went up to 17 miles on my LSR 2 weeks back (felt good on the day).

Ran 15 miles on Sunday (LSR).

Personal life is making a mess of my training plan this week.

This week:
Monday: dance class (cardio & stretching).
Tuesday: strength and flexibility class followed by a 9.5 mile run.
Wednesday: 5 mile run and strength and flexibility class. (got absolutely DRENCHED on the run).
Thursday: Last chance to run until next Tuesday (will not have a spare second across the next few days). Going to see how much I can mentally handle after work this evening & see how I go.

Pacing needs to improve across the board. Not running at a pace I'm even close to happy with [on average 9-9.50 (short runs) to 10.50ish (LSR)]. Any advice shout!

Pink11

Only managed 5 miles last night. Legs are extremely tired & heavy. I've trained hard the last few weeks. Decided it's best I take a rest and start off again next week. Hopefully my pace will improve after the rest.

How did you all fair this week?


Fueling: I trained with gels last two marathons but tbh I always felt a bit dodgy on them and decided against them this time round.

I've been trialing 'running on empty' aka get up, no food and straight into a LSR. (I do have a coffee though).

I also carry a dioralyte and take one mid run. It works a dream. Always had an issue with headaches and nausea after long runs no matter how much I drank prior and during a run. (I always carry water and sip slowly so I didn't realise I was still dehydrated).

Q: Has anyone used 'zero' or sports specific electrolyte powders over dioralyte? Which is better or are they the same?

judeboy101

Pink11 wrote: »

Only managed 5 miles last night. Legs are extremely tired & heavy. I've trained hard the last few weeks. Decided it's best I take a rest and start off again next week. Hopefully my pace will improve after the rest.

How did you all fair this week?


Fueling: I trained with gels last two marathons but tbh I always felt a bit dodgy on them and decided against them this time round.

I've been trialing 'running on empty' aka get up, no food and straight into a LSR. (I do have a coffee though).

I also carry a dioralyte and take one mid run. It works a dream. Always had an issue with headaches and nausea after long runs no matter how much I drank prior and during a run. (I always carry water and sip slowly so I didn't realise I was still dehydrated).

Q: Has anyone used 'zero' or sports specific electrolyte powders over dioralyte? Which is better or are they the same?

Tailwind. Perfect imho. Never had a dodgy tummy after. I start all my lsr on empty as I'm an early riser.

Pink11

Great I'll give that a go next. Had never heard of it before. Any tips on cheapest way to buy?

Do you plan on running the marathon on empty too?